Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play

[ghanima]

I don't have hard feelings at all, I'm simply trying to understand your reasoning. I know for a fact heavy combat oriented clans are up to stuff and running rpts right now. But it stands to reason that the more social type rpts/clans will reach the ears of many. The combat stuff is only if you're a part of it and in the know.

I'll say it again. If, hypothetically, Salarr is abuzz with lots of public activity and Kadius and Kurac are quiet, that's not Salarr's fault. You seem to be assigning blame on clans for doing what they were designed to do. If those clans aren't your style, no problem! Go sign up for the ones you like and help put them on the map with activity too. Dumping on the efforts of others because you don't like their clan concept or the fact that they are actually bring proactive doesn't seem very helpful to me.

[frankjacoby]

I don't have hard feelings at all, I'm simply trying to understand your reasoning. I know for a fact heavy combat oriented clans are up to stuff and running rpts right now. But it stands to reason that the more social type rpts/clans will reach the ears of many. The combat stuff is only if you're a part of it and in the know.

I'll say it again. If, hypothetically, Salarr is abuzz with lots of public activity and Kadius and Kurac are quiet, that's not Salarr's fault. You seem to be assigning blame on clans for doing what they were designed to do. If those clans aren't your style, no problem! Go sign up for the ones you like and help put them on the map with activity too. Dumping on the efforts of others because you don't like their clan concept or the fact that they are actually bring proactive doesn't seem very helpful to me.

Not in the slightest, my issue overall is with forcing action in a certain direction, imo, it's almost as if you're playing a chess game where you are a pawn and have to follow a certain narrative.  In addition, it's as if it's triply hard for newer or indy people to survive and combine that with a stagnant environment and removal of essential parts of the world and you have a recipe for mass migration.

[ghanima]

You still haven't answered what a "bureaucratic boost" is or what a boost in general is. You're seeing some clans being proactive and public and assuming that they're given a boost? What you're really seeing is players playing the game. There's nothing stopping you from doing the same thing. And if you do, should we then say oh frankjacoby is being given unfair "boosts"? Sounds more to me like frankjacoby is playing the game. Maybe you don't like the clans currently at the forefront and see them as less indicative of the Zalanthan world. So why not pick a clan you feel better captivates the environment and bring it into the limelight? It's actually not that hard.

As far as indie troubles goes. Their existence is supposed to be difficult. That's exactly the point of the game. It's a withered and wasted world, ravaged by destructive magicks, where rain never falls and water is scarce and in the hands of the powerful few. Don't expect a free lunch. Everyone is out to get you, whether it's for your boots or your life! Very very very few people in such a world will prosper on their own. Instead, they are often fated to joining the powers that be. It's unfortunate that veteran players know the system (IC resources and how to get them) well enough that they can RP around these troubles, and maybe right now you do not. The irony is that the suffering newbie who doesn't want to join a clan and instead goes out on their own better reflects the harsh realities of Zalanthas than a veteran who can skillfully amass a fortune larger than even a noble or merchant has. If you were to argue that certain aspects of the code need to be more transparent, I'm right there with you. But dumping on other clans and the efforts of other players isn't helping that sort of statement.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I don't think strength should be nerfed.  Maybe Agility needs boosted and agility checks vs Bash/subdue ect..should be boosted. 
Half giants are supposed to be ridiculously strong.  Think about this...You are fighting a polar bear and it hit you with its paw.  It weighs 900lbs and you weigh 190 lbs, you just can't fight it using strength.

The system is working mostly as intended.  In my opinion.   I also don't think half-giants are being abused, if they were, then we would see a big problem with half-giants murdering people.  Thats not happening though, not as far as I have seen.   If they are given orders by someone to do so and they are loyal to the person giving the orders thats another thing.

Half-giants are not to be played like retarded humans, more so they are supposed to be like human children, naive and meldable to the whims of whoever has earned their trust. I have played along side a lot of the half-giant population with my last character and didn't notice any major abuses.

If They do need nerfed, I don't think a white blanket of strength being cut is a good way of going about it.  Half giants are our tanks and we should use them as such.

[tapas]

Half-giants are not to be played like retarded humans, more so they are supposed to be like human children, naive and meldable to the whims of whoever has earned their trust. I have played along side a lot of the half-giant population with my last character and didn't notice any major abuses.

I can count on one hand which half-giants I thought could be manipulated, turned or even misdirected. Including most of the current ones, I probably would not even try.

[Hauwke]

If you cant manipulate someone, you arent trying hard enough.

[Brokkr]

They are half-giants, you shouldn't even have to try.

[Large Hero]

If you cant manipulate someone, you arent trying hard enough.

A half-giant should not (usually) be difficult to manipulate. Fooling a half-giant should not (usually) require that most humans "try hard." That's the point. An adjacent idea: observant humans should not (usually) get the impression that a half-giant character would be difficult to manipulate.

When a half-giant character routinely acts independently, takes the lead in groups, displays problem-solving ability and a good memory, or even corrects other characters (all behaviors I've seen recently and frequently from HG PCs), it is reasonable to assume that such a character would be difficult to manipulate.

A player is not responsible for others' assumptions about their character, to a point. But central to Armageddon is presenting our character such that others might reasonably draw assumptions which contain a measure of insight and truth about our character's inner nature. This is part of meaningful roleplaying.

Part of our job is enabling our roleplaying partners to penetrate our character's outer mask, to some degree, and learn what's really going on inside. We need to demonstrate our character in vulnerable, dramatically interesting ways that allow others material to work with, and, potentially, to take advantage of our character. We need to approach the shared creative exercise of roleplaying in a collaborative, thoughtful and honest spirit, rather than in a competitive one.

All characters should betray themselves, given close enough observation or provocation. Even the most intelligent, manipulative and emotionally perceptive characters. There should be a crack in every character's armor, or you're playing to win, instead of playing to embody a person via roleplaying.

Arguably, half-giants should be the most transparent and most manipulable of all characters. The cracks in their armor should be a mile wide. Because this telegraphing should be so obvious, its perceived absence smacks strongly of a player trying to Win the Game. When a player is trying to Win the Game while playing a karma role with a lot of coded power, like half-giants have, it's a concern.

--

I'd wager that most characters don't try to swindle certain HG PCs because they fear a disproportionate backlash. Is the HG going to realize he's being tricked and squash my character? Is the HG going to remember who tricked him, and how, and report my character to the various clan leaders who love the HG because he's necessary for combat RPTs?


Here's a few brief questions I'd ask players of half-giant characters to consider, when judging whether they're projecting enough vulnerability to others.

1. Does your half-giant publicly display expensive horror plate, jewels, and rare items? If so, why haven't these items been tricked or swindled off your half-giant? Has anyone tried? If they haven't tried, why do you think this is?

2. Has your half-giant lived for several RL months and gone through many dramatic or dangerous situations? In how many of these situations did you choose to have your half-giant commit a serious mistake? Have you created serious consequences for your HG or for other characters due to your half-giant's poor choices?


Given how I believe some players of half-giants would answer the above questions, it's clear to see why other players often feel those half-giants are not believably manipulable or fallible. Certain signals speak much more loudly than occasionally farting or yelling in public.

[Suhuy]

They are half-giants, you shouldn't even have to try.

Totally disagree. Just because half-giants are gullible and easily manipulated doesn't mean you can convince them to do anything at any time. They're not your puppets you can command at will.

I agree with Hauwke. It's not difficult (but not 100% fool proof). Rather than saying you aren't trying hard enough I might instead say you just aren't trying.

[Patuk]

They are half-giants, you shouldn't even have to try.

Totally disagree. Just because half-giants are gullible and easily manipulated doesn't mean you can convince them to do anything at any time. They're not your puppets you can command at will.

I agree with Hauwke. It's not difficult (but not 100% fool proof). Rather than saying you aren't trying hard enough I might instead say you just aren't trying.

Three years ago now(I checked), there was a half-giant who literally ran about bossing others around in the Guild as well as in the AoD. Literally smart enough to be part of either, do as it was told for either, hold power in either clan. To do missions on its own eastside and elsewhere and not have things go wrong.

So yeah, nah. This isn't 'you just have to try harder.' It's not even 'you're not trying at all'. Some people do a terrible job of things and should not be playing half-giants, period.

[Hauwke]

Any time a HG walks down the street, they are probably bombarded with offers of food for something  that they can be manipulated. Every. Single. Time. Before long even a 5 year old will work out to take the better offers. That guy is offering a scrab steak for me to do that thing? Great! Oh but this guy is offering TWO steaks for me to not do that thing. Oh wow! Even better!

Besides, if a player goes the route of playing their HG that people apparently want, going along with dropping their sword while riding, losing their helmet all the time or breaking their tools, then what do people do? They dont take that HG on the combat RPT because they dont want to deal with it, they stop giving the HG tools so they can no longer do their job and just because enormous slabs of meat who just stand there drooling and get used as a pack mule. How fun do you suppose that is for more than five minutes? At the end of the day, this is a game.

[Large Hero]

<scenarios of HGs making mistakes>
How fun do you suppose that is for more than five minutes? At the end of the day, this is a game.

You hit the nail dead center on the head. Many half-giant players seem to value their fun over realistically portraying the shortcomings of the race.

So they choose to ignore or undersell those shortcomings. 

This is exactly the problem.

[Hauwke]

There are people who play City elves as wanting to be in the desert, they are City Elves.

There are people who play dwarves and ignore their focus.

There are people who play humans as the ultimate badass, when they are literally the most average race there is.

There are people who play HGs as too smart and thus ignore a large portion of their docs sure.

Do you want to remove City Elves, Dwarves and Humans too?

[azuriolinist]

I was going to post but... what Large Hero said, basically.

The point of the game, along with having fun, is to roleplay.

I do agree that one shouldn't be able to convince a half-giant to do just anything without at least a little effort. Half-giants seem to be stubborn (persevering) creatures, after all. In general, what makes them easy to manipulate is that half-giants are easy to see through.

[Large Hero]

Do you want to remove City Elves, Dwarves and Humans too?

Nah. I don't want half-giants to be removed. I've posted saying that in this thread.

I do want people to stop ignoring documentation because it's more fun for them, though.

[azuriolinist]

There are people who play City elves as wanting to be in the desert, they are City Elves.

There are people who play dwarves and ignore their focus.

There are people who play humans as the ultimate badass, when they are literally the most average race there is.

There are people who play HGs as too smart and thus ignore a large portion of their docs sure.

Do you want to remove City Elves, Dwarves and Humans too?

Rather than removal, perhaps bumping HGs up a karma would be a better option. HGs are, from what I've seen, incredibly difficult to roleplay.

[Jihelu]

"There are people who play City elves as wanting to be in the desert, they are City Elves." Nothing stops a city elf from being a hunter. Just because he doesn't run good doesn't mean he can't stay near the cities. If someone wants to hard mode, sure.

"There are people who play humans as the ultimate badass, when they are literally the most average race there is." If a human wants to act like a bad ass and die thats up to them, but humans are literally the most cocky of fucks in the world.

The only one of these quotes that even remotely works is the one about dwarves ignoring their focus.

[Fathi]

The issue with Half Giants is that the benefits of the race are hard-coded into them. Their enormous strength, stamina, HP pool, the benefits of being really big on stride length and bashing, ect.

The limitations of the race are not hard coded into them, to my knowledge. Their skill caps are just as high. The main drawback for all those phenomenal coded strength is that you have to be mentally stunted, which is handled almost entirely through roleplay.

This gets dangerously close to 'Roleplay Police' territory, but when you get massive tangible gains for the cost of restricted RP, then someone does have to police to make sure you adhere to those restrictions, otherwise you're just doing the cafeteria thing where you take all the benefits and leave the rest.

I don't see this about HG loyalists as much as I do about HG drawbacks being on an honor system when the benefits are assured.

This post sums up my feelings perfectly.

Half-giants are a race with an extraordinary amount of coded benefits and very few coded disadvantages. The "balance" is supposed to be in their roleplay, which players are more or less free to ignore.

[Cind]

Lower mul karma by one, raise hg karma by one. Simple, yeah?

[X-D]

So, on the "fooling half-giants". On any of mine, I always hoped people would at least try to fool, manipulate them. Almost nobody every tried, which is sad. Maybe a handful of times over the course of several HG's. How many successful, one. And here is where I do not agree with Brokkr. You do have to put some sort of realistic attempt. Here is one of the failures. #1 Dude holds up feather, Hey, I have this magick inix feather for sale! HG Inix don't have feathers. HG looks down at the inix he is riding. Dude says It is from a "MAGICK" inix...only two large and it is yours. HG Inix don't have feathers. Dude says Fine...your loss.
So yes, you DO have to try, at least a little bit, I mean, What does the feather do, Why would a HG want it? Remember in Arm, Magick is not a good thing and a HG would know that. Besides, Inix don't have feathers.

A successful one was simple and one of the high points of playing a HG, as an elf managed to convince my HG that his scrab bladder was a lucky water ball. A simple scam with everything believable even to a child and only charged 100 coins...WHAT A DEAL!!!!

As to "turning" a HG...have you ever tried? Again, in several HG's and many years, I have NEVER had a single PC ever try to turn any of my HG's. I have never seen anybody but myself even try, and BOTH times I was successful. I believe that many HG players wait for it to happen, it never does...always saddened me.

[WithSprinkles]

I've seen some pretty good examples of HG play I would have thought. I always feel guilty as a player trying to get over on them, so even if I do, I can't bring myself to totally and completely cheat them if it works.

I'll give a round of applause to the player years ago that played the HG that my character hastily tried to find someone else to affix its devotion on. Leaving dead birds for me to find was a nice touch. It was puppy-ish and awesome and while I and my character got that it was a 'nice' gesture.. dude. A huge behemoth of a stranger was cheerfully leaving me dead.. animals... unprompted. You can't buy that kind of confused terror.

I'd say leave the karma requirement where it's at and maybe provide more good examples or flesh out the docs. And don't forget to send kudos when someone is doing well.

[KankWhisperer]

I've seen some pretty solid HGs in the last couple years. I've seen some grow a lot better at it too. I should leave a kudos.

By solid I mean loose with secrets, easily co-opted into your schemes, and not overly intelligent.
Good job HG players.

[seidhr]

Sarcastic post that did not contribute to discussion removed.

[Rahnevyn]

I feel the need to comment because a lot of posts in this thread are talking about documentation being ignored for whatever reason. This is not okay. We can disagree on interpretation of documentation, and if anyone has questions about specific situations involving themself or another player they can open up a question request or a player complaint as appropriate. That is what those request types are for. But racial documentation is not meant to be an optional guideline. It is meant to define parameters of how you portray a character that fits into our world.

Finding examples of others ignoring documentation does not justify doing it yourself. The "this is a game" excuse is also not a justification, as it leaves out a key element: this is a roleplaying game, where portraying your race according to documentation is not just encouraged, it is expected. Yes, it is even expected to the point that if following documentation means you might miss out on an RPT or other opportunities, you should stay true to your roleplay.

But also, give your fellow players a chance. Yes, HGs are big and scary. You take a risk just interacting with one, maybe it will squish you, or tell on you to its friends. But I encourage you to try anyway and let the other player show you how they will react. Assume good intentions and that everyone is out to play to the best of their ability. If you have questions or get burned by this approach, again, that's where staff can help.

[Gunnerblaster]

I personally like having Half-giants as part of the game. I feel a HG's primary role is as an enabler. Effectively, a support role that encourages other players to push stories. In that scenario, I love half-giants.

But to see HG's portrayed as only slightly less-smart humans and going out and operating independently - Frustrates me. A HG should never be independent or playing by themselves.