Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play

[Riev]

I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Feedback isn't always taken well.  Sometimes quite the opposite.

At the point they're 2 karma, or 1 karma and applying a level above, the assumption is that there is a level of trust between the player and staff. Finding people of any stripe who take criticism well is hard. Feedback depends on who is giving it, and why.

[The Lonely Hunter]

After reading some of these posts I can't help but to wonder...why are people afraid to criticise if that criticism is called for? So what if they don't "take it well", maybe that is a perfect sign that they shouldn't be in roles that require that level of trust to adhere to and understand the documentation.

Muls, which also seem to be a topic, are (imo) the most interesting of PCs to play. Unfortunately many people just seem to play buff and bald humans and everyone is afraid to correct them.

If someone is doing something wrong, staff can tell them. If you think they are, send an email/request to staff. Actions are not corrected if people are afraid to correct them.

[ghanima]

After reading some of these posts I can't help but to wonder...why are people afraid to criticise if that criticism is called for? So what if they don't "take it well", maybe that is a perfect sign that they shouldn't be in roles that require that level of trust to adhere to and understand the documentation.

Muls, which also seem to be a topic, are (imo) the most interesting of PCs to play. Unfortunately many people just seem to play buff and bald humans and everyone is afraid to correct them.

If someone is doing something wrong, staff can tell them. If you think they are, send an email/request to staff. Actions are not corrected if people are afraid to correct them.

Some players just tend to gravitate towards negativity and are constantly on the look out for any opportunity to correct others. I think there are better ways to foster good RP and to nurture players in the right direction rather than filing complaints all the time. I'm sure they have their place, but the amount of times I see the phrase "send in a player complaint" on here is really worrisome.

I get what some posters are saying about half-giant RP sometimes being a little.. off. But I don't think that's the trend. On the contrary, most of the half-giant PCs I encounter seem to exhibit the following, almost to the point of being obnoxiously predicable:

• They count coins/numbers wrong.
• They have poor grammar (but not full on Tarzan-mode like back in the day).
• They will misinterpret the things you say and take it literally.
• They adopt the customs of those nearby.

I can't think of a single half-giant PC who didn't do any of the above. There may be other points they're missing, but if you're doing all of the above you're at least somewhat on track with half-giant RP. This needs to be recognized and praised before you hit them with "you suck you suck you suck".

I'd like to see either coded or ICly mandated changes that make life slightly (read: slightly) more difficult for half-giants. I was reading this Dark Sun wiki on half-giants a few months back and found the following points interesting:

Half‐giants tend to damage objects and buildings around them through accidents of size alone. Some considerate half‐giants camp outside city walls to avoid causing too much damage, but the draw of a city's culture and the below average intellect of most half‐giants limits the number of half‐giants who do so.

Obviously you would need to carefully consider playability versus realism when implementing anything along the lines of the above (limits on rooms you can enter, objects breaking, etc), but there seems to me some potential there.

But look, if someone is doing something blatantly wrong, sure, yeah, I guess send in a report. That's not really my style, but you know.. feel free. It just astounds me that one poster can call for the compete removal of a race because 10% aren't playing up to their personal standard, and another whose sole contribution to the thread is "we should send in more player complaints because that's helpful for the MUD". How about we try to positively improve things rather than dismantle it to the ground every time we encounter something we don't like?

[Delirium]

I would like to see staff nudge people occasionally back into line when they see HG turn into these monster hunting/exploring/politicking/money making prodigies. Some of them are merchant houses on legs that can hemmorage wealth.

This is what bothers me the most. Especially people who play half-giants who are cunning enough to successfully lie, manipulate, cheat, etc.

Feedback isn't always taken well.  Sometimes quite the opposite.

At the point they're 2 karma, or 1 karma and applying a level above, the assumption is that there is a level of trust between the player and staff. Finding people of any stripe who take criticism well is hard. Feedback depends on who is giving it, and why.

So long as it is constructive criticism and worded kindly (along with mentioning the things they did right) I don't see the problem. Letting issues continue unaddressed would be more of a problem to me. If they aren't willing to communicate constructively maybe they shouldn't have HG karma.

[Riev]

As a reminder:

Player Complaints are not "This guy sucks". It is, unfortunately, how staff have decided to word a category for "Please Investigate, something seemed off to me. See below."

Not every "Player Complaint" is, in fact, a complaint, but our only recourse to allow for someone who can see the "whole picture" to determine if they were being abusive or just needed some correction.

It could be worse. It could be the player you submitted an investigation ticket on, doing the investigation of their own character.

[nauta]

I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.

While discussion has meandered here and there, I took the proposal to be something like: Granted that all HGs are played exactly to specification, exactly in accord with the documentation, and also granted that we are also, leadership and what-not, interacting with HGs exactly to specification, exactly in accord with docs, are HGs as a playable race somehow problematic in terms of the game play?

So, for instance, here's something discussed before on discord.  Call it the problem of Big Numbers.  Imagine you are a DM and you made a cave for a party of six people, and all six people are roughly the same in strength and skills and the like.  Say they are all Value 5.  You populate this cave with, say, a dozen kobolds.  A dozen kobolds, you decided, would be a 'good' and 'smart' challenge for the party: if they don't work together, they might die, but likely they'll survive, with some damage, of a reasonable amount.  It'll be a fun challenge.

Now, toss into that mix of Value 5 PCs one PC who is Value 100.  This PC can just smoosh a million kobolds without even beating an eye.  What do you do as a DM?  You can load up a giant mekillot or two to make this more of a challenge.  But now the odds facing the group are less 'this is a challenge and smart play will get us out alive if we work together' and more: 'that PC better tank or I'm gonna die.'  Whereas before if a kobold or two got past the Value 5 tank, the others could take a few hits before the Tank PC recovered and rescued them.  But if that mekillot gets past the giant, then its just death.

So, to sum up, the problem with Big Numbers is that it make sit hard to find an adequate 'challenge' for a group of PCs (Bynners, etc.), that falls somewhere between "this was a breeze" and "this was a slaughter".

All that said, to counter any "don't take away things" worries, I would submit that if a race is taken away, two new races are added.  So leave those worries at the gate.

[ghanima]

I don't disagree with you, Riev. It would be nice if there was a "feedback" option, rather than "player complaint". But let's all take our gloves off and be extremely frank with one another for a second...

For all the players who can't take constructive criticism very well (as Brokkr points out), there are a hundred others who can't deliver it well either.

Moreover, when the first (and only) solution you can think of is to file in a report, yeah, I'm a little suspicious of your ability to send it in a way that encourages better RP, rather than simply discourages and demotivates. I think there are solutions to this problem that could be employed long before we discuss sending in complaints/feedback/etc, let alone further removal of game content! Let's discuss implementing prompts that remind a half-giant what they are: chairs that codedly break, rooms that prompt you with "You manage to fit, but you have to duck the entire time you're here", and an occasional NPC that exhibits frustration with the sheer size of their visitor. Can we at least look into these things before we propose shrinking the game any further or occupying staff time with reports (negative, or for that matter positive)?

[valeria]

I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.

Discuss.

Disagree.  I've seen a variety of HGs around since I started playing and I haven't noticed this as a problem.  Maybe give me a couple examples of them stifling conflict?  I can't think of a single instance I've had them stifle conflict for me.  I also have been in many, many clans and think it's a real stretch to say that all clans have HG loyalists or want then. 

This feels like a solution in search of a problem.  Have we moved to HGs on the player hate wheel?  I'll have to update my notes.

[Potaje]

I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.


Discuss.

While discussion has meandered here and there, I took the proposal to be something like: Granted that all HGs are played exactly to specification, exactly in accord with the documentation, and also granted that we are also, leadership and what-not, interacting with HGs exactly to specification, exactly in accord with docs, are HGs as a playable race somehow problematic in terms of the game play?

So, for instance, here's something discussed before on discord.  Call it the problem of Big Numbers.  Imagine you are a DM and you made a cave for a party of six people, and all six people are roughly the same in strength and skills and the like.  Say they are all Value 5.  You populate this cave with, say, a dozen kobolds.  A dozen kobolds, you decided, would be a 'good' and 'smart' challenge for the party: if they don't work together, they might die, but likely they'll survive, with some damage, of a reasonable amount.  It'll be a fun challenge.

Now, toss into that mix of Value 5 PCs one PC who is Value 100.  This PC can just smoosh a million kobolds without even beating an eye.  What do you do as a DM?  You can load up a giant mekillot or two to make this more of a challenge.  But now the odds facing the group are less 'this is a challenge and smart play will get us out alive if we work together' and more: 'that PC better tank or I'm gonna die.'  Whereas before if a kobold or two got past the Value 5 tank, the others could take a few hits before the Tank PC recovered and rescued them.  But if that mekillot gets past the giant, then its just death.

So, to sum up, the problem with Big Numbers is that it make sit hard to find an adequate 'challenge' for a group of PCs (Bynners, etc.), that falls somewhere between "this was a breeze" and "this was a slaughter".

All that said, to counter any "don't take away things" worries, I would submit that if a race is taken away, two new races are added.  So leave those worries at the gate.

Funny things is, sure HG make a nice meat shield and if they can land a blow it can hurt, badly, however they are not immortal beings impervious to being killed by even the silliest of weak mobs. I have seen Hg die to a single stilt lizard because they were not able to land a single blow. I have seen none HG pc's take out an HG pc of decently lengthed life and training. I don't think they are in this regard game breaking.

[Eyeball]

Why not add a race of silt-dwellers? Spice up the Silt Sea.

[Grapes]

I've thought some while reading this thread, and it has occurred to me that there are some very good players who either have, or are playing HGs. On the outside, it can be difficult to view HG roleplay objectively... there are some very excellent HG PCs out there currently, and have been in the past, and I worry that some arguments may make certain players feel targetted. From personal experience, it is a very difficult role to play, this difficulty, and the resulting fallout, even if a player does it entirely correctly there will be complaints, is the main reason I would support any kind of change to either alter HG mentality and power, or to remove it entirely.

Comparing it to the challenge of playing a mul, which, I've not played a mul, but I've seen many very well-played muls, is like comparing apples to oranges. A mul comes with its own challenges, and, depending on the background and experience of the mul, can have some interesting parrallels with HGs, but the two are by no means very similar, beyond one is an escaped slave, so essentially a child when it comes to living free, and the other, will always be irredemably stupid, a HG will ALWAYS be childish, a mul can grow and adapt over time, and indeed, even become a fearsome leader, being naturally talented in a number of things that make a good leader.

tl;dr HG roleplay is very hard, and there will always be someone ready to criticize even if you're playing strictly by the docs. My issue is the situation seems to give rise to more problems than it solves. Also, Nauta raises a good point.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Again, no real issues with HG role play primarily because I don't associate with them to often. I don't really understand how anyone could play one without the schtick wearing thin, but I feel the same way about merchants too, so I understand I'm not really a good litmus test for that.

My main issue is the ridiculous amount of insane strength character NPCs wandering the streets in Allanak. These NPCs just happen to be HG. If staff wanted to either make the races more mixed, reduce the numbers/fix the duplication, or cap off the HG soldier stat rolls to something more middling then I would be peachy keen. After all, crime is a part of the game. It should be difficult but not of polar difficulty nor without consequences. Sometimes you want to run from the soldiers due to your PCs station, race, values and getting instakilled (in any context) is awful game design IMO. Currently trying to break and run is akin to walking into a dark room that could be a death trap with zero warning signs before it and no way to check if it is ahead of time.

[Veselka]

I think Half Giants (like Great Danes) should have very short lifespans. Useful when they're in their prime, but more stupid, foolhardy, and unpredictable as they get older. That's the roll of the dice.

I don't have much of a problem with HG's. I see what Is Friday is saying, and I agree that they tend to make combat encounters especially boring. But there's ways around that (not including them on every combat mission) and they aren't infallible (I've seen half-giants get rekt by even well trained assassins). They're a pawn in the Izdari game, and sometimes, they're useful.

[Cind]

What about....

If we made the HG soldier npcs standing around in the cities less well-trained?

HGs are inherently very stupid and therefore must be hard to train, right?

You wouldn't even have to do it for all of them. But even I know that the soldier npcs are well-trained.

Varying the amount of training all the patrollers have would not be a bad idea if the work input wasn't too bad.

If it turns out badly, just raise a few stats on some of them closer to the original strength.

Let's be honest, you don't really need 50 HG npc soldiers with 5 year-trained stats. That mekillot that wrecked the bazaar a few years ago was unstoppable anyway, but everything else seems to die without quarter.

[tapas]

I think the game's power dynamics would be more interesting if HGs didn't exist as PCs. I believe they stifle conflict and I've noticed the HG Cold War since I started playing. All relevant clans have HG loyalists or try to attain one ASAP. It'd be more interesting if leaders had humanoid combat PCs instead of going out of their way to claim the next available HG in the queue.

Discuss.

Disagree.  I've seen a variety of HGs around since I started playing and I haven't noticed this as a problem.  Maybe give me a couple examples of them stifling conflict?  I can't think of a single instance I've had them stifle conflict for me.  I also have been in many, many clans and think it's a real stretch to say that all clans have HG loyalists or want then. 

This feels like a solution in search of a problem.  Have we moved to HGs on the player hate wheel?  I'll have to update my notes.

I've seen half-giants on a rampage before. Back during the hand-bounty fuckery, you'd have them waiting one room north from the Scaen gates to just walk in and subdue you. It's about as stupid as you'd expect.

[AdamBlue]

There is nothing wrong with half-giants when a regular-ass human can literally knock one out in a fist-fight, you whining dipsticks.

I once played a half-giant acrobat who took great pleasure in climbing up buildings like godzilla then leaping down to scare the shit out of people walking out of the Gaj. I always echoed that it broke some cobblestones from the sheer impact.

[Cind]

I wish I'd seen that.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I think HGs need to stay, but people need to call other players on crappy RP.

I think Muls are good also, one of my favorite races, but also I have seen some really shitty RP with them and people need to report others for crap RP.

If you think someone isn't playing something properly, report it.  Not our place to judge, that's staff's job... it's our job to inform them so they can investigate.

I also think Role Playing documentation can be expanded upon for races to help provide good examples of behaviors and actions.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Wee-woo wee-woo wee-woo  Rp police here on the scene .

The boss walks in and says plainly, "Detective, we just discovered your name is not on the approved list, you're gonna go away a long time for this."
"Wait", the detective said, "I'm so close to cracking this half giant case."
"You don't have any proof!" says the boss
An observant person my notice the detective starts to tremble a little as he begins to speak, "I'm gonna get to the bottom of this, then, You can do what you want with me."

Before even awaiting a response the illegally named rp detective dives out of an open window...Tune in next week for more (dramatic pause) Rp Police!

[The Warshaper]

I think alot of folks are more annoyed by the HG's that solo hunt the entire known, lead groups across the sands, and are rarely seen as "vulnerable" to deceit.

I personally have played one HG. I put in for a special app, waited months, saw it was approved and began preparing mentally to try and put on my best effort to try and and portray these surprisingly complex creatures. After meeting a single PC in a tavern after commencing I wandered into an unsafe area (New starting city, #forevernoob) and died within a few hours played. I was crushed but was offered the option to make another HG, the daunting task of creating another background and try to have another go took to long after trying to come up with another concept and the option was removed. I wasn't even mad, HG's should make the player portraying them give pause to -every- thing they do, and how they react. They are completely alien and understanding how to play one within the docs takes mad skill. Some can pull it off, some can't.

For example the documentation mentioned that HG's can't even understand the concept of love in the roleplay doc.

" Half-giants are also practically incapable of thinking in the abstract. Nebulous concepts such as justice, love and honor are hard to truly grasp even for many of us - for a half-giant it may as well be impossible! A half-giant will have difficulty understanding anything that they couldn't physically wrap their hands around. This makes half-giants easier to control as slaves and other laborers, and because of this are often found among the ranks of soldiers. Perhaps due to their inability to see beyond their present situation, a half-giant is rarely an unhappy individual.

They are very easily tricked. They cannot think flexibly or with subtlety, they cannot grasp abstract concepts, and they are highly suggestible and trusting. All together, these things make half-giants very easy to manipulate. A half-giant does not attach any value to an item other than that which it seems to have at the moment, and the same goes for a friend. "

This is an incredibly high standard for folks to try and portray and each person who tries will face scrutiny, everyone has their own interpretation after reading the same game documentation. This isn't a flaw with the race, the documentation, or the interpretation of the reader, it's just that HG's are -very- hard to roleplay when you're just trying to enjoy your time playing a game with other nerds on the internet. Their playability as a character is like an iso role even if you're sitting in the Gaj with 10 other PC's. Players want to have fun and they want to feel powerful, HG's can offer that sensation but at the cost of literally being at the mercy of everyone around you is a terrifying concept when you consider the attachment and time investment on the average Arm character.

Removing them I feel would be heavy handed. Yes I feel there should be far fewer HG NPC's, and by that line of thinking should they have their requirements to play increased aswell after taking a look at the difficulty to play one and the coded benefits? Are there really to many PC HG's?

For discretion to this opinion, yes I'm not currently playing but when I play Arm I feel like the amount of time investment I should be able to offer to really enjoy it is just higher than what I can currently muster up between work/relationship atm. Just my two sid is all this is.

[Insigne]

...

+1. Lots of great points.

Here's my two cents: Players should be held at a higher standard with their portrayal of half-giants and other racial roles. They're setting the tone for their race and an example for newer players who are unfamiliar with the various races in Zalanthas.

No, I don't agree that half-giants stifle conflict. Definitely not in any way that should warrant their removal from play.

[stoicreader]

Why not give some coded penalty to HG? Like a stamina penalty, they lose one stamina for every room they walk. You know, those tiny hearts and a big body get tired really fast.

And they get a stun bonus, but anything that costs stun costs tremendously more. Like psionics, listen, watch. I should see HG pass out regularly when using too much psionics.

[MarshallDFX]

For the record, I'd be willing to try a hg moratorium.

[Patuk]

Ehhhhhh...

I don't like HGs. I think a lot of them are very poorly played, I think a lot of sponsored leaders go out of their way to grab a shiny bag o' strength points without ambition or leadership potential, I think the sheer amount of HG soldiers in Allanak is ridiculous... But I also think the game shouldn't be in the business of removing even more than it already has. A lot of people seem to enjoy them, and I think we should be hesitant to take that away.

So, if nothing else.. I think I'd prefer for bad HG RP to be punished, and good RP to be rewarded more. Sorry to hear some people dislike it, Brokkr, but it's also part of being on staff; if people don't want to be told off for doing a poor job at RPing a race, they can instead play humans. Humans that can join every clan and rise to great heights and be any guild and be magical or tribal or whatever else and offer you varied enough of an experience that if for whatever reason people find you unsuitable to being a giant, you'll have options left.

[TheWanderer]

The primary issue here is most of you have never mudsexxed a half-giant. Once they've been disrobed and placed in an incredibly vulnerable state, a lot of players finally peel back the numerous layers of their seemingly mediocre character to reveal the much more complex individual beneath. You're then privy to the subtle intricacies of a far more nuanced, well-rounded giant, which in turn upends these pervading falsehoods. I suppose it further illustrates why you can't trust an ill-informed player opinion over staff opinion on most of these subjects. You people never know what the fuck you're going on about.

The fact that none of you seem to know this speaks volumes about the playerbase and its diminished ability to tell tales that venture beyond a shrinking comfort zone. It's disheartening, honestly.

"Art is bold, daring, controversial, and always risky." Maybe you'll grasp this simple concept one day and refrain from requesting the subtraction of another outlet in this game. Don't play prey to their simple-minded masquerade.