Discussion thread for proposed karma changes.

[mansa]

I am very happy with the karma regen.

I am very happy with the cap on sorcerer and psi, though I feel it should be set to a percentage between 5~10% of the active playerbase over a real-life week.  (Unique logins every 7 days)  This number cap could be updated every month automatically, and the percentage it is set it can also be manually updated as the need be.

[helix]

I agree with Dresan - I would completely remove the Sorc/Psi from the Karma tree and have them as sponsored roles. This keeps them small and gives staff great oversight onto them, and also places some kind of emphasis (whether real or imagined) that the character is a mover and a shaker and is meant to drive roleplay for other characters. As much as a templar, it could be viewed as a leadership role, though of the antagonist sort, usually.

As far as the karma system itself goes - my questions are thus:

• Will players that currently have karma keep their options?
• Do players still have the ability to request classes/subclasses that are karma restricted via spec-app? If so, is that spec-app for a non-sorc, non-psi role considered your single spec app for the year?
• Will any of the new classes (speaking of class revamp) be karma restricted?
• Would it be possible that roles be advertised as karma uses, as well? (will explain more on this in my comments section)
• Are you considering population caps on any other karma-restricted classes/subclasses at this time?
• Would it be possible to trigger karma reviews after a certain amount of playtime in combination with real-time?

So, wrote a whole bunch of questions, first thanks for answering any of them. I'm glad to see movement on the karma front, and am greatly anticipating the class revamp as well. Probably even moreso than a karma revamp. Couple comments I'd like to mention in regards to my questions:

I know I, and many other players who have karma, fought long and hard for it. In the past (granted, I haven't played in nearly ten years), karma was a hit-or-miss affair. I played a very, very long-lived, and renowned leader... and only a chance glance at my account by a friendly staffer (much later) netted me a couple karma when I put in for a very low-karma spec-app. I'd hate to be in that situation again, even if I don't use my karma options very often (read: ever).

I'm also curious if any of the new classes will be karma restricted; brokkr brought up an interesting idea that anything that can mastercraft is a restricted option. If that is then a consideration, would some mundane classes with exceptional crafting ability (i.e. merchant, as an example) be relegated to a karma-required class, or is that a subclass-only requirement?

I'd also be interested in knowing if you might consider opening up some generic, default 'roles' up as karma options. This worked well in SoI when I played there (though the RPP gain was much faster), and was able to get more advanced players into more advanced roles, where they can often benefit more players with their experience.

As far as a critique of the system, I will say that I think the karma regain mechanism seems a bit more complex than it needs to be, and doesn't quite make sense to me, though perhaps I'm thinking about it wrong.

If PlayerA has three karma and apps a mul, he will regain one karma again in 90 days.

If PlayerB has one karma and apps a vivaduan, he will regain one karma again in 30 days.

Let's say that both characters last 45 days. PlayerB is free to create another Vivaduan even though he spend 100% of his available karma, ad nauseam, whereas PlayerA must wait an additional 45 days for the same benefit.

The issue here does not seem to be how many vivaduans there are in the game world - only that PlayerA apped a 3-karma class and thus needs to wait 180 days before regaining his full karma, or 90 days for even playing a 1-karma class, whereas another player spending 100% of their max karma only has to wait 30 days.

It would seem a simpler system if the karma regenerated like:

1st point: 30 days to regenerate
2nd point: 60 days to regenerate
3rd point: 90 days to regenerate

Finally, I will say that I've seen a similar system work very well in SoI, though it did have the added feature of having some default, generic roles (like army Corporal, for instance) available for RPP - that helped quite a bit in a few cases, and those roles often came with some skill bumps and/or other small perks that made them worthwhile. I have great hopes!

[sleepyhead]

I like helix's suggestion as far as karma regen goes. He brings up a good point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think to know what karma you will have under the new system, you have to tally up what points you have in separate categories and then apply them to the new criteria. As for me, I have 5 karma, but two of my karma points were awarded under the same category, so I will have 4 points, which amounts to 2 karma. I will need to achieve two more points in different categories in order to make it to the max 3 karma. That is my understanding.

My question is: Can a single karma review award multiple points in different categories? What if someone hasn't dutifully been sending in karma reviews each year, for example, but you've noticed they've done well in more than one category?

[Tleilax]

To paraphrase the announcement post. Since it's come up a few times.

New                Current
Level 0 -                    0
Level 1 -            1 - 2 points
Level 2 -            3 - 5 points
Level 3 -            6 - 8 points

It was phrased to be criteria in the post. But it will work as a direct old karma to new karma conversion.

[sleepyhead]

To paraphrase the announcement post. Since it's come up a few times.

New                Current
Level 0 -                    0
Level 1 -            1 - 2 points
Level 2 -            3 - 5 points
Level 3 -            6 - 8 points

It was phrased to be criteria in the post. But it will work as a direct old karma to new karma conversion.

I really do think I have 2 points in one category, though, and the OP states that the points must be in separate categories. Am I going to lose a point over this or might it be reviewed and added to a different category? Just clarifying.

[Miradus]

Is it just my cynical nature, or does it seem like this is going to really going to promote a culture of no-risk, tavern sitting, tea party and fashion show instead of getting out there murdering, betraying, and corrupting ... not to mention chopping up people with bone swords?

It's the regen times that have me concerned. 150 days is a substantial run of warrior/nomads while you work your way back around to someone who can mastercraft a new knife.

But hey. There's some pretty good no-karma combos out there. And you can never go wrong with a pickpocket. 150 days of stealing people's stable tickets will pass the time between outdoorsmen in an entertaining fashion.

Maybe I just need more time to think this through, but it feels like we're enabling a side of the player base we're already pretty well saturated in. Who is going to get out and do stuff? The warrior/bounty hunters?

[Adhira]

It'll be a direct conversion as stated.

We won't be looking at your categories. It's going to be a coded execution.

[sleepyhead]

It'll be a direct conversion as stated.

We won't be looking at your categories. It's going to be a coded execution.

OK, thanks for the clarification!

[helix]

Is it just my cynical nature, or does it seem like this is going to really going to promote a culture of no-risk, tavern sitting, tea party and fashion show instead of getting out there murdering, betraying, and corrupting ... not to mention chopping up people with bone swords?

In so many words... I don't think so.

What it will do is take the emphasis of excellent stats out of the game. You're right insomuch as it will promote people to cherish their karma much more than before, but explorers will always be explorers, and killers will always be killers. I can honestly say that I didn't play my special-app characters any differently than I did before because I only got three of them a year. People will be more likely to be content with what they roll, because they can't roll another for an extended period of time.

In addition, I would take this change with the class revamp on the horizon as well; given that staff have already stated that classes will become more powerful because people don't have as much time for the grind any longer, and you'll likely see characters that are quite a bit more survivable, with more utility skills, and even more reasons to get out into the world. In short, characters will be even more likely to survive, and have better tools to survive, regardless of their karma options.

[Dar]

Heya.

I'm extremely happy about any form of regenerating Karma. It prevents the same higher karma players from continuously playing extended subguilds/magickers.  I personally have not rolled a single non extended subguild since the day they became automated. Unless some regular guild had something specific that I had in mind, it was always always always extended subs. Which is admittedly, unfair to other players. Regenerating Karma would make even people with high karma to space out those special guilds.

I'm extremely happy about reducing the required karma/waiting period to achieve higher karma roles. There are people out there who played for a 'decade' and never played a Mul. Not because they didnt want to, but because they never really got close enough to app it. This way, the threshold is lower to reach rarer guild to 'try out' in a spec app, but the necessary player qualities that are needed to be able to play those roles without spec apps are the same as current karma, or better.

My only worry is the one that's partly disregarded by somewhat ambiguous mention of higher skill levels as part of the guild revamp.  My worry is among all other things, higher Karma is what gives our DECADES old veterans a semblance of replayability. Or at least it should. Meaning the karma should allow players to play not only codedly more powerful beings, but mundane beings who are regular, but further advanced along the grinding scale. Because god as my witness, I imagine the need to grind again, and I just close the webclient without finishing a new char app.

It is mentioned that new options to guild selections will be available that solve the issue though. So there will be choices. Do you pick slipknife for all the extra skill, but begin at a novice, or do you remain regular schmoe, but your starting skills are higher and therefore you can join in on the plots without all the grind.

[Nathvaan]

• Will players that currently have karma keep their options?
• Do players still have the ability to request classes/subclasses that are karma restricted via spec-app? If so, is that spec-app for a non-sorc, non-psi role considered your single spec app for the year?
• Will any of the new classes (speaking of class revamp) be karma restricted?
• Would it be possible that roles be advertised as karma uses, as well? (will explain more on this in my comments section)
• Are you considering population caps on any other karma-restricted classes/subclasses at this time?
• Would it be possible to trigger karma reviews after a certain amount of playtime in combination with real-time?

I don't think I can hit on the whole post but I'll at least try and address the questions here!

1) When the scale changes, karma options change.  There isn't any plan to grandfather anything in mostly because that would be a nightmare code wise.  Though with a few exceptions you should have almost the exact same options and likely many more after the conversion.

2) Yes, you can special app anything you like as long as it is within 2 karma of your max.  As I understand it there isn't a distinction between psion/sorc special applications or regular special applications so I believe it would count, yes.

3) New classes: I am glad you asked!  The first round of betas with the new classes are planned to be 0 karma with the idea that additional higher karma versions (read similar to skill bumps) will be tested to allow people to avoid some of the grind.

4) I think we'll have to think/talk about that, thanks for the idea.

5) Not that I am aware.  We aren't looking to cap other options.

6) Triggering based on in game would encourage a couple things that we aren't as interested in interjecting such as idling in order to get karma back and the impression that you HAVE to play and be online to get ahead (karma wise). 

There isn't any talk at the moment of moving any more mundane guilds to karma restrictions (ie. merchant). 

[helix]

Thanks, Nathvaan and Tleilax, for answering, and that's pretty awesome. I do like the system; my only critique at the moment is the way that karma would regenerate.

Would you mind, perhaps, sharing your thoughts on the logic of the karma regeneration operating in the way that it is proposed? I'm not sure I grasp the purpose of having the first karma option regenerate slower on a 3-karma player than a 1-karma player, given that both have spent 100% of their available karma, and both are aiming to play a 1-karma role. Why would the 3-karma player have to wait an additional 60 days to play the same character type?

Also, I really appreciate answering the question on the new classes. I wasn't sure if that was something you guys would be willing to answer, very glad to see that you all are taking those into account in conjunction with these proposed changes as well. I see them as very intertwined.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe people will just roll warriors and kill each other. Or karma roles. Especially karma roles.

[azuriolinist]

I agree with helix's point above on the point regeneration. The number of days it takes to regenerate each point should be fixed, rather than escalating for how many karma a role is used for. Otherwise, I don't consider the waiting time for regeneration too extreme, per se, considering:

The end goal of this project is that all players that play by the rules and act as good players should be able to achieve the full 3 points of karma.  This would make 3 karma the norm, rather than the exception.  The ability to spend and regenerate karma is what will make this system work in terms of keeping balance within the game.

The stand on how this would encourage players  to become conservative over their karma roles is, frankly, rather inflated. That's really up to every individual player. Players who are action-driven will probably still go searching for it, regardless of role, and that goes vice-versa. Sure, the conflict might be brought about in a slow boil rather than this constant, stinging fry (...uh). Still, I honestly think the amount of murder, corruption, and betrayal wouldn't be any different from how it is now. A player who really wants action would go looking for it.

[Hauwke]

Just so I am 100% clear on this, if I have 1 karma pre change, I will still have 1 karma post change?

and what about 2 karma will those with 2 be bumped to 1 or will they remain at 2?

[Insigne]

Just my two cents as a fairly new player:

I like the proposed change of a smaller karma scale.

I can get behind a karma regeneration system. But not as it's proposed now. 60-90 days is a hell of a long time. If anything, I feel like it further encourages treasuring higher-karma roles, playing it safe and even taking long breaks from the game. Shorten the wait time! Please? Pretty please?

My opinion on psionicists and sorcerers is fairly limited, but I agree with Fathi:

I think having a public hard limit on psions and sorcerers is a bad idea because like it or not, the OOC guild sniffing metagame is part of playing those guilds.

A suggestion? Maybe consider a soft cap of, say, 3-5 instead based on an interest list?

[Vox]

This sounds really interesting and I'm excited to see how the new class roll-outs will fold into this equation.

I have to agree however on the regen time frame. I would highly recommend it be a fixed 30 days per point. To regenerate 3 total points should take 90 days.. 3 rl months is really quite a long time and will certainly space out character types. If it doesn't, you can always extend the regen time a bit later, but starting smaller would seem to be more player-friendly.

Just my two cents, rock on with your bad selves!

[Insigne]

Elsewise, I agree with Vox. Excited to see what comes of these upcoming changes!

[John]

Initial thoughts without reading this thread:
Hooray! I finally have max karma (got mul and 2 magicker subguilds)
Boo. I still have to special app sorcerer and psionicist.
Hooray my special app doesn't count if I do a John special and die straight away.

Recently Rathustra (or maybe Renentuet) raised a concern in that some (maybe many?) Will avoid taking numerous risks or buy into plotlines because they don't want to die. I'm worried that such slow then will exacerbate that tendency.

More thoughts to come.

[Gunnerblaster]

While being on board with of most of the changes, the only concern I have is the extensive time (60 days) it takes to regain your first karma point.

[Inks]

What percentage of the players wanted these changes?

I am fine with the regen, I think it will work. I hope it isn't overly complex.

[azuriolinist]

Yeah... a lower waiting time and fixed amount for each point might lessen the risk for that particular concern on players avoiding death. Still, I think it's a thing that will prevail whether or not karma plays into it. People get attached to their (our) characters, considering the amount of time and effort put into them.

[BadSkeelz]

How about making your karma instantly regenerate if you get PKed.

[whitt]

Will there still be a limit that no more than one karma point can be gained each review?  Meaning it is a minimum of 3 RL years to get to max karma?

[azuriolinist]

How about making your karma instantly regenerate if you get PKed.

... eheh. That's great. Some way to provide (automatic) incentives for conflict, in general.