Armageddon's slang and RL crossover

[Nergal]

In Armageddon, the staff over the years have made it a point to make the game welcoming to all who want to play. This is why the sexes enjoy equal status, LGBTQ orientations for characters are not discriminated against in game, and so on. We like to ensure that conflict in the game is not drawn along the exact same lines that they're drawn along in real life.

I've asked this question on Discord a couple of times, but I was curious if any players feel that there's any potentially uncomfortable crossover between pejorative slang words used in Armageddon, and pejorative slang words used in real life. If so, what is it, and why?

Edit to add: If you don't feel comfortable talking about the subject in public, you can email me or put in a request and let me know if you want me to post your comment anonymously, or just read it for myself and/or to staff.

[John]

Armageddon's slang has evolved over time naturally. The current current terms are evolved from words that do NOT resemble any RL perjoratice terms.

I feel that censoring what we can say any further than what we currently do would mean losing a part of Armageddon's atmosphere.

[Harmless]

I don't believe in censorship, but there are a few things I think are crossing a line of what breaks the third wall, so that we all can have an enjoyable experience. It's not censorship, just a strong urging and request to avoid the overuse of certain things that don't need to be used to maintain our gritty atmosphere.

For example, the overuse of the term "necker," which rhymes very unfortunately with a well known N word in english, and is based off the silly idea of calling elves "long necks" is pretty fucking dumb; luckily a lot of players are turning towards the less triggering "sharp" which fits more anyway. I am however used to "necker" and tolerate it, in small doses, because I am able to read the difference of 3 letters there and am an adult; but  we don't need to be spamming it left and right, so that by the time someone who might take offense does read it, they already would "get" the game atmosphere and roll with it.

The term "round" or its variants (round-ear) to refer to humans is a coincidental parallel to "round-eye" in the real world, but I don't think anyone in the real world is offended by "round-eye" so this one is a total pass. There are, however, more creative IC insults for humans that non-humans could use, or maybe we need to start thinking of them.

The term "retard" shouldn't exist in game in my opinion because there is no way Zalanthas would have adopted this word as nan insult; obviously, since it is based on the scientific term "mentally retarded." There are countless other ways of calling someone stupid, so why use this one? Sadly, I still see it now and then, because it is a common part of our shitty American English vernacular and people sometimes play Arm tired, lazily, or disinhibited. Those players need to kick this habit in RL. If you do this too much I will file a player complaint and in my experience, staff will act on it.

Any terms that are pejorative to LGBTQI people should not exist in Zalanthas. Hatred of LGBTQI in the real world is almost fully founded on religious beliefs. The only religions in Zalanthas are the cults of worship of the Sorceror-Kings and maybe, rarely, other things -- elementalism, death worship/cults, or tribal cults. In the real world a common reason for religious or political discrimination against LGBTQI had to do with reproduction, marriage laws, etc; in Zalanthas, reproduction is not valued as highly (look at all the mul mix, the orphanages, not to mention how hard it is to raise children in the first place) and there is no formal marriage rite except among Noble classes (where it is understood that marriage is more for reproduction/heir making and therefore requires a female and male partner really, and nobles are pretty well known to have pleasure slaves). Therefore any hate-terms against LGBTQI shouldn't be in game.

[Melkor]

Lol. There are PLENTY of slurs/customs in Zalanthas that modern SJW types would cause all kinds of fuss over.

Calling half-elves "Breeds" pejoratively. Round-ear. Sharp.
Open racism between the different races.

My point is, if you give people the opportunity to feel slighted, and the power to use this perceived injustice as a hammer with which to beat and then manipulate you, they will take it.

FFS, do not ever censor fantasy.

[Harmless]

Don't disagree with that, but I don't feel that censorship was even the intent of Nergal's OP. I would like to remind people that there is a RL and that RL rules still do apply to some degree in a game. Be mature. Don't overuse any one term and remember consent rules, and it should be fine. More than that, try to be aware of a few terms that maybe don't belong and or should be used sparingly. That's all. It's not censorship.

[Melkor]

Ughhh. There is nothing wrong with the word retard. If it was ever enforced to "not belong," that IS censorship.

There are many instances of players trying to language police using the OOC command IG. I think THIS is in bad form, and THIS should not belong IG.

[boog]

I've literally never seen anyone correct another person's grammar or word choice in game via OOC. If that happens... report... it? O_o

[Melkor]

Staff? Should I report this? I don't have the logs, but I have the name and sdesc of the language police.

[Renenutet]

Staff? Should I report this? I don't have the logs, but I have the name and sdesc of the language police.

If it's having an impact on your enjoyment of the game yes. If it's excessive yes. If it happened once and you didn't feel too disturbed then do what you feel.

[Kalden]

I really don't like seeing words like "cool" (which I've seen from multiple players), but otherwise don't have much opinion. Coming up with additional canonical slang for the world isn't a bad idea...

Keep in mind staff may not be very sympathetic if you report that someone is bothering you over your modern slang. They discouraged the word "miss" not too long ago.

[sleepyhead]

Most fantasy slang words don't really have any oomph behind them. For me, the fact that the word "necker" is reminiscent of offensive RL epithets gives it weight that a totally made-up word will never have. It reminds me that prejudice against elves in the game is serious and unfair. I understand why people might be uncomfortable using it and certainly no one should ever feel pressured to use it, but I don't think we should think of banning it.

I mean, staff has always said that RL prejudices are not allowed IG, but that's just blatantly false.

People discriminate against people of tribal origins both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people who are poor both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people from bad neighborhoods both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people of low birth both IRL and IG (especially applicable in certain Earth cultures.)
People discriminate against foreigners both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people with deformities or unusual features both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against unattractive people both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people for having degrading or low-paying jobs both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people of low intelligence both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people with disabilities both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people who have unusual beliefs both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people with mental illness both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people for their age both IRL and IG.

Just because there's no discrimination based on skin color, sex, or sexual orientation doesn't mean there's no crossover to RL prejudices and nothing that could be offensive or "triggering" to anyone. "Necker" is at least not a word anyone actually uses IRL. What about words like "savage", "idiot", "nutcase", or "freak"? Those are words that could be potentially extremely hurtful to the players behind the screen. Where do we draw the line? If "savage" isn't okay, then is it still okay to treat someone from the Tablelands like you think they're a savage? Isn't that just as bad as or worse than the word in and of itself?

I know it's a slippery slope argument and it probably sounds very reactionary of me but I really don't want to start playing a game where we are having to walk on eggshells. I'm ambivalent about the ban on words or phrases discriminating by gender or sexual orientation, and highly supportive of the ban on words and phrases demeaning a person for their skin color. But I DON'T want to have to worry if I'm being triggering when I'm insulting someone for perfectly doc-friendly IG reasons, because I might be reminding them of something bad IRL. I don't want that burden on me when I'm playing. I probably wouldn't play if we started policing language, and some people might actually be pleased with that and feel it's a net gain for Armageddon if I quit (again), but that's how I feel about it.

[Melkor]

Hear, Hear!

[whitt]

I know it's a slippery slope argument and it probably sounds very reactionary of me but I really don't want to start playing a game where we are having to walk on eggshells. I'm ambivalent about the ban on words or phrases discriminating by gender or sexual orientation, and highly supportive of the ban on words and phrases demeaning a person for their skin color. But I DON'T want to have to worry if I'm being triggering when I'm insulting someone for perfectly doc-friendly IG reasons, because I might be reminding them of something bad IRL. I don't want that burden on me when I'm playing. I probably wouldn't play if we started policing language, and some people might actually be pleased with that and feel it's a net gain for Armageddon if I quit (again), but that's how I feel about it.

[hylomorphic]

The game-enforced discrimination against non-humans and magickers are metaphorical stand-ins for real-life forms of discrimination: racism and homophobia.

I hope I don't need to spend any time explaining how the speciesism of Zalanthas relates to real-life racism.

How discrimination against magickers parallels homophobia is a little bit more opaque, but it is similar to the way the X-Men also functions. A magicker discovers that they are...different. They may try to hide their difference, or even refused to accept it--the fear is that they might (though this is largely unlikely) be hurt or killed--but they will more likely be marked and have their social and filial positions ruined, and more or less forced to go live in the gayborhood--I mean, Magickers' Quarters.

If you don't live in New York Ci-er, Allanak--you might be in fear of simply being murdered if found out--or you might live in a far-away tribe where your kind is respected.


The in-game enforcement of these forms of discrimination affords players the opportunity to play with and process the issues of real-world discrimination in a safe environment. Because at the end of the day, despite the clearly metaphorical nature of Zalanthan discrimination, discrimination against fantasy races isn't real world racism, and discrimination against magickers isn't homophobia.

The use of slurs like "necker" and "abomination" (N.B.: "abomination" is in fact a real life term of abuse against LGBT people) lampshades the metaphor and makes it more effective. Objection to the term "necker" smacks of white fragility--are we so afraid to recognize, even in an oblique way, the existence of real racial inequality?

[John]

Don't forget: People of mixed descent face the very real discrimination that we heap upon half elves with relish. The feeling of never fitting in or being ostracized unless they can "pass" as one race (a form of discrimination we have literally coded into the game). Clearly we need to be sensitive to people with mixed parents by making half-elves virtual.

Let's face it. Armageddon is not friendly to the SJW of the 21st century. We can either castrate the game or accept it isn't for everyone.

[Armaddict]

Considering I thought censoring 'Mister' and 'Miss' was completely ridiculous, I'm pretty sure any further 'Don't do that because immersion' or 'But the correlations between RL' are going to be in the same boat.

I'm sorry, but if people get so broken over other people's dialogue patterns in this video game, they are probably taking it too seriously to engage in anything but their own little world effectively, rather than a collaborative writing style.  I've literally seen people use famous RL quotes or caricatures in game and everyone treats it like a joke despite the obvious reference.  There's no need to bust down on words unless they are just all out breaking the attempt to play a fantasy game whatsoever.

[Jihelu]

I liked using Mister/Sir ;.;

[sleepyhead]

Let's also not forget that slavery is pervasive IG and the docs tell us that slaves are often grateful for their condition and live better than many poor commoners who have to scrounge for food and water. The idea that slavery is "wrong" would never occur to the vast majority of people in Zalanthas. That could be very uncomfortable for a lot of players.

Let's face it, upsetting concepts are what this game is all about, and these concepts a lot more upsetting than any words that might be used to describe them. If anything, words like "necker" remind us as players that our prejudiced characters are wrong and ignorant, just like RL racists.

(I also agree that the loss of mister/miss and sir/ma'am was a sad thing that took away some potential to express class differences between respectable and less respectable commoners)

[Jihelu]

Not every slave likes being a slave, though.

Less the downtrodden, cloth wearing, dirt ridden npcs I see are happy with their life.

[Melkor]

Let's face it, upsetting concepts are what this game is all about, and these concepts a lot more upsetting than any words that might be used to describe them.

Betray your best friend? No problem. Poison people? Sure thing. Chop them into pieces with bone swords? (Without consent!) FUCK YES....

But dont you dare say retard.

Lol. The Silliness is real.

[sleepyhead]

Jihelu: I didn't mean to say all the slaves were happy being slaves. Otherwise there wouldn't be any such thing as an escaped slave, and Red Storm wouldn't be known as a haven for escaped slaves!

Melkor: I wouldn't personally use the word retard, not because it's too offensive, but because it sounds too modern-teenagery. I'd probably go for "simpleton" or "idiot", maybe even pejoratively call them a half-giant.

[Melkor]

I've heard it used by dumb bynners.

The one time I had a character use it was a 13 year old shithead.

As with anything, IC is IC. It wouldnt make sense for a noble to call somebody retard, or a tribal warrior. But a little city shithead kid? Or some dumb bynners? Perfectly plausible, IMO.

[sleepyhead]

Again, it's not really my style but I'm not going to get all up in arms because somebody used it. And my reasons for not really caring for it have nothing to do with it being a loaded word IRL.

[James de Monet]

I'm not at all offended by the use of the following, they aren't all pejorative, and thankfully I don't encounter them frequently, but I feel that words like "balls", "stones", or "nuts" to describe courage, (and conversely words like "dickless" to describe cowardice) miss an opportunity to reinforce that Zalanthans wouldn't ascribe any masculine quality to courage.

They aren't perfect suggestions, but "spineless", "bloodless", or "spitless" are probably better for cowardice.  Maybe "steel-eyed", "pluck", or "nerve" for courage.

The funny thing about language, though, is that it has more power when it is exclusionary.  Maybe we could start using words like "stump-hearted" or "sharp-hearted" to express human views of various races reactions to danger (dwarves, being resolute and preferring the head-on approach might appear courageous to humans, whereas elves, being crafty and preferring the most advantageous approach, might appear cowardly).


The other one that gets me is the use of words like "bitch".  I don't feel there has to be anything wrong with gendered words like this, but it's highly dependent on the usage.  If you say "some bitch just stole my purse" to mean a woman (whom you now dislike) stole your purse, that should probably be fine, as it is purely a dysphemistic physical description.  But if you say "she whines like a bitch", that is problematic, as it indicates a gender disparity between men and women. And Zalanthans would probably never refer to a man as a "bitch" (or a woman as a "dick", "prick" etc.), because the word wouldn't have any (negative) meaning by contrast.  It would just be confusing to people.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I've heard it used by dumb bynners.

The one time I had a character use it was a 13 year old shithead.

As with anything, IC is IC. It wouldnt make sense for a noble to call somebody retard, or a tribal warrior. But a little city shithead kid? Or some dumb bynners? Perfectly plausible, IMO.

I'm not much of a fan of retard, not because I care if it's offensive, but because I think there are better words to use for stupid that seem more appropriate to the setting. That said, I'd prefer if my dictionary doesn't get whittled away anymore than it actually has. I don't understand why someone would seek a game that has a feature of being gritty and then complain that they are offended. If you are catching this flack for some feature about your PC, might I suggest storing them and making a different one?

The other one that gets me is the use of words like "bitch".  I don't feel there has to be anything wrong with gendered words like this, but it's highly dependent on the usage.  If you say "some bitch just stole my purse" to mean a woman (whom you now dislike) stole your purse, that should probably be fine, as it is purely a dysphemistic physical description.  But if you say "she whines like a bitch", that is problematic, as it indicates a gender disparity between men and women. And Zalanthans would probably never refer to a man as a "bitch" (or a woman as a "dick", "prick" etc.), because the word wouldn't have any (negative) meaning by contrast.  It would just be confusing to people.

Well hey now, that's not exactly true. Perhaps that PC in your example means he whines like a female Gortok or Cur in heat. That's obviously a bit of a stretch, but walking up on the situation without understanding the context is a huge issue here. I remember once getting a lecture for using the word slut in game. It made complete sense from my characters perspective to think that way and use such a term, but I was rapidly accosted by a bystander to the situation. It seems like pretty bad practice to assume you understand why a PC acts in the manner they do without reading their bio or reports yourself.

I rarely come to video games looking for political statements. I don't come to a game set in post-apocolypse looking for an ideal world. I comply to the rules of the game because I don't find them very cumbersome, but I wouldn't be driven away if they were reduced. I'm rambling, but these are a couple of my thoughts.