Armageddon's slang and RL crossover

[Nergal]

In Armageddon, the staff over the years have made it a point to make the game welcoming to all who want to play. This is why the sexes enjoy equal status, LGBTQ orientations for characters are not discriminated against in game, and so on. We like to ensure that conflict in the game is not drawn along the exact same lines that they're drawn along in real life.

I've asked this question on Discord a couple of times, but I was curious if any players feel that there's any potentially uncomfortable crossover between pejorative slang words used in Armageddon, and pejorative slang words used in real life. If so, what is it, and why?

Edit to add: If you don't feel comfortable talking about the subject in public, you can email me or put in a request and let me know if you want me to post your comment anonymously, or just read it for myself and/or to staff.

[John]

Armageddon's slang has evolved over time naturally. The current current terms are evolved from words that do NOT resemble any RL perjoratice terms.

I feel that censoring what we can say any further than what we currently do would mean losing a part of Armageddon's atmosphere.

[Harmless]

I don't believe in censorship, but there are a few things I think are crossing a line of what breaks the third wall, so that we all can have an enjoyable experience. It's not censorship, just a strong urging and request to avoid the overuse of certain things that don't need to be used to maintain our gritty atmosphere.

For example, the overuse of the term "necker," which rhymes very unfortunately with a well known N word in english, and is based off the silly idea of calling elves "long necks" is pretty fucking dumb; luckily a lot of players are turning towards the less triggering "sharp" which fits more anyway. I am however used to "necker" and tolerate it, in small doses, because I am able to read the difference of 3 letters there and am an adult; but  we don't need to be spamming it left and right, so that by the time someone who might take offense does read it, they already would "get" the game atmosphere and roll with it.

The term "round" or its variants (round-ear) to refer to humans is a coincidental parallel to "round-eye" in the real world, but I don't think anyone in the real world is offended by "round-eye" so this one is a total pass. There are, however, more creative IC insults for humans that non-humans could use, or maybe we need to start thinking of them.

The term "retard" shouldn't exist in game in my opinion because there is no way Zalanthas would have adopted this word as nan insult; obviously, since it is based on the scientific term "mentally retarded." There are countless other ways of calling someone stupid, so why use this one? Sadly, I still see it now and then, because it is a common part of our shitty American English vernacular and people sometimes play Arm tired, lazily, or disinhibited. Those players need to kick this habit in RL. If you do this too much I will file a player complaint and in my experience, staff will act on it.

Any terms that are pejorative to LGBTQI people should not exist in Zalanthas. Hatred of LGBTQI in the real world is almost fully founded on religious beliefs. The only religions in Zalanthas are the cults of worship of the Sorceror-Kings and maybe, rarely, other things -- elementalism, death worship/cults, or tribal cults. In the real world a common reason for religious or political discrimination against LGBTQI had to do with reproduction, marriage laws, etc; in Zalanthas, reproduction is not valued as highly (look at all the mul mix, the orphanages, not to mention how hard it is to raise children in the first place) and there is no formal marriage rite except among Noble classes (where it is understood that marriage is more for reproduction/heir making and therefore requires a female and male partner really, and nobles are pretty well known to have pleasure slaves). Therefore any hate-terms against LGBTQI shouldn't be in game.

[Melkor]

Lol. There are PLENTY of slurs/customs in Zalanthas that modern SJW types would cause all kinds of fuss over.

Calling half-elves "Breeds" pejoratively. Round-ear. Sharp.
Open racism between the different races.

My point is, if you give people the opportunity to feel slighted, and the power to use this perceived injustice as a hammer with which to beat and then manipulate you, they will take it.

FFS, do not ever censor fantasy.

[Harmless]

Don't disagree with that, but I don't feel that censorship was even the intent of Nergal's OP. I would like to remind people that there is a RL and that RL rules still do apply to some degree in a game. Be mature. Don't overuse any one term and remember consent rules, and it should be fine. More than that, try to be aware of a few terms that maybe don't belong and or should be used sparingly. That's all. It's not censorship.

[Melkor]

Ughhh. There is nothing wrong with the word retard. If it was ever enforced to "not belong," that IS censorship.

There are many instances of players trying to language police using the OOC command IG. I think THIS is in bad form, and THIS should not belong IG.

[boog]

I've literally never seen anyone correct another person's grammar or word choice in game via OOC. If that happens... report... it? O_o

[Melkor]

Staff? Should I report this? I don't have the logs, but I have the name and sdesc of the language police.

[Renenutet]

Staff? Should I report this? I don't have the logs, but I have the name and sdesc of the language police.

If it's having an impact on your enjoyment of the game yes. If it's excessive yes. If it happened once and you didn't feel too disturbed then do what you feel.

[Kalden]

I really don't like seeing words like "cool" (which I've seen from multiple players), but otherwise don't have much opinion. Coming up with additional canonical slang for the world isn't a bad idea...

Keep in mind staff may not be very sympathetic if you report that someone is bothering you over your modern slang. They discouraged the word "miss" not too long ago.

[sleepyhead]

Most fantasy slang words don't really have any oomph behind them. For me, the fact that the word "necker" is reminiscent of offensive RL epithets gives it weight that a totally made-up word will never have. It reminds me that prejudice against elves in the game is serious and unfair. I understand why people might be uncomfortable using it and certainly no one should ever feel pressured to use it, but I don't think we should think of banning it.

I mean, staff has always said that RL prejudices are not allowed IG, but that's just blatantly false.

People discriminate against people of tribal origins both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people who are poor both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people from bad neighborhoods both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people of low birth both IRL and IG (especially applicable in certain Earth cultures.)
People discriminate against foreigners both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people with deformities or unusual features both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against unattractive people both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people for having degrading or low-paying jobs both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people of low intelligence both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people with disabilities both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people who have unusual beliefs both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people with mental illness both IRL and IG.
People discriminate against people for their age both IRL and IG.

Just because there's no discrimination based on skin color, sex, or sexual orientation doesn't mean there's no crossover to RL prejudices and nothing that could be offensive or "triggering" to anyone. "Necker" is at least not a word anyone actually uses IRL. What about words like "savage", "idiot", "nutcase", or "freak"? Those are words that could be potentially extremely hurtful to the players behind the screen. Where do we draw the line? If "savage" isn't okay, then is it still okay to treat someone from the Tablelands like you think they're a savage? Isn't that just as bad as or worse than the word in and of itself?

I know it's a slippery slope argument and it probably sounds very reactionary of me but I really don't want to start playing a game where we are having to walk on eggshells. I'm ambivalent about the ban on words or phrases discriminating by gender or sexual orientation, and highly supportive of the ban on words and phrases demeaning a person for their skin color. But I DON'T want to have to worry if I'm being triggering when I'm insulting someone for perfectly doc-friendly IG reasons, because I might be reminding them of something bad IRL. I don't want that burden on me when I'm playing. I probably wouldn't play if we started policing language, and some people might actually be pleased with that and feel it's a net gain for Armageddon if I quit (again), but that's how I feel about it.

[Melkor]

Hear, Hear!

[whitt]

I know it's a slippery slope argument and it probably sounds very reactionary of me but I really don't want to start playing a game where we are having to walk on eggshells. I'm ambivalent about the ban on words or phrases discriminating by gender or sexual orientation, and highly supportive of the ban on words and phrases demeaning a person for their skin color. But I DON'T want to have to worry if I'm being triggering when I'm insulting someone for perfectly doc-friendly IG reasons, because I might be reminding them of something bad IRL. I don't want that burden on me when I'm playing. I probably wouldn't play if we started policing language, and some people might actually be pleased with that and feel it's a net gain for Armageddon if I quit (again), but that's how I feel about it.

[hylomorphic]

The game-enforced discrimination against non-humans and magickers are metaphorical stand-ins for real-life forms of discrimination: racism and homophobia.

I hope I don't need to spend any time explaining how the speciesism of Zalanthas relates to real-life racism.

How discrimination against magickers parallels homophobia is a little bit more opaque, but it is similar to the way the X-Men also functions. A magicker discovers that they are...different. They may try to hide their difference, or even refused to accept it--the fear is that they might (though this is largely unlikely) be hurt or killed--but they will more likely be marked and have their social and filial positions ruined, and more or less forced to go live in the gayborhood--I mean, Magickers' Quarters.

If you don't live in New York Ci-er, Allanak--you might be in fear of simply being murdered if found out--or you might live in a far-away tribe where your kind is respected.


The in-game enforcement of these forms of discrimination affords players the opportunity to play with and process the issues of real-world discrimination in a safe environment. Because at the end of the day, despite the clearly metaphorical nature of Zalanthan discrimination, discrimination against fantasy races isn't real world racism, and discrimination against magickers isn't homophobia.

The use of slurs like "necker" and "abomination" (N.B.: "abomination" is in fact a real life term of abuse against LGBT people) lampshades the metaphor and makes it more effective. Objection to the term "necker" smacks of white fragility--are we so afraid to recognize, even in an oblique way, the existence of real racial inequality?

[John]

Don't forget: People of mixed descent face the very real discrimination that we heap upon half elves with relish. The feeling of never fitting in or being ostracized unless they can "pass" as one race (a form of discrimination we have literally coded into the game). Clearly we need to be sensitive to people with mixed parents by making half-elves virtual.

Let's face it. Armageddon is not friendly to the SJW of the 21st century. We can either castrate the game or accept it isn't for everyone.

[Armaddict]

Considering I thought censoring 'Mister' and 'Miss' was completely ridiculous, I'm pretty sure any further 'Don't do that because immersion' or 'But the correlations between RL' are going to be in the same boat.

I'm sorry, but if people get so broken over other people's dialogue patterns in this video game, they are probably taking it too seriously to engage in anything but their own little world effectively, rather than a collaborative writing style.  I've literally seen people use famous RL quotes or caricatures in game and everyone treats it like a joke despite the obvious reference.  There's no need to bust down on words unless they are just all out breaking the attempt to play a fantasy game whatsoever.

[Jihelu]

I liked using Mister/Sir ;.;

[sleepyhead]

Let's also not forget that slavery is pervasive IG and the docs tell us that slaves are often grateful for their condition and live better than many poor commoners who have to scrounge for food and water. The idea that slavery is "wrong" would never occur to the vast majority of people in Zalanthas. That could be very uncomfortable for a lot of players.

Let's face it, upsetting concepts are what this game is all about, and these concepts a lot more upsetting than any words that might be used to describe them. If anything, words like "necker" remind us as players that our prejudiced characters are wrong and ignorant, just like RL racists.

(I also agree that the loss of mister/miss and sir/ma'am was a sad thing that took away some potential to express class differences between respectable and less respectable commoners)

[Jihelu]

Not every slave likes being a slave, though.

Less the downtrodden, cloth wearing, dirt ridden npcs I see are happy with their life.

[Melkor]

Let's face it, upsetting concepts are what this game is all about, and these concepts a lot more upsetting than any words that might be used to describe them.

Betray your best friend? No problem. Poison people? Sure thing. Chop them into pieces with bone swords? (Without consent!) FUCK YES....

But dont you dare say retard.

Lol. The Silliness is real.

[sleepyhead]

Jihelu: I didn't mean to say all the slaves were happy being slaves. Otherwise there wouldn't be any such thing as an escaped slave, and Red Storm wouldn't be known as a haven for escaped slaves!

Melkor: I wouldn't personally use the word retard, not because it's too offensive, but because it sounds too modern-teenagery. I'd probably go for "simpleton" or "idiot", maybe even pejoratively call them a half-giant.

[Melkor]

I've heard it used by dumb bynners.

The one time I had a character use it was a 13 year old shithead.

As with anything, IC is IC. It wouldnt make sense for a noble to call somebody retard, or a tribal warrior. But a little city shithead kid? Or some dumb bynners? Perfectly plausible, IMO.

[sleepyhead]

Again, it's not really my style but I'm not going to get all up in arms because somebody used it. And my reasons for not really caring for it have nothing to do with it being a loaded word IRL.

[James de Monet]

I'm not at all offended by the use of the following, they aren't all pejorative, and thankfully I don't encounter them frequently, but I feel that words like "balls", "stones", or "nuts" to describe courage, (and conversely words like "dickless" to describe cowardice) miss an opportunity to reinforce that Zalanthans wouldn't ascribe any masculine quality to courage.

They aren't perfect suggestions, but "spineless", "bloodless", or "spitless" are probably better for cowardice.  Maybe "steel-eyed", "pluck", or "nerve" for courage.

The funny thing about language, though, is that it has more power when it is exclusionary.  Maybe we could start using words like "stump-hearted" or "sharp-hearted" to express human views of various races reactions to danger (dwarves, being resolute and preferring the head-on approach might appear courageous to humans, whereas elves, being crafty and preferring the most advantageous approach, might appear cowardly).


The other one that gets me is the use of words like "bitch".  I don't feel there has to be anything wrong with gendered words like this, but it's highly dependent on the usage.  If you say "some bitch just stole my purse" to mean a woman (whom you now dislike) stole your purse, that should probably be fine, as it is purely a dysphemistic physical description.  But if you say "she whines like a bitch", that is problematic, as it indicates a gender disparity between men and women. And Zalanthans would probably never refer to a man as a "bitch" (or a woman as a "dick", "prick" etc.), because the word wouldn't have any (negative) meaning by contrast.  It would just be confusing to people.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I've heard it used by dumb bynners.

The one time I had a character use it was a 13 year old shithead.

As with anything, IC is IC. It wouldnt make sense for a noble to call somebody retard, or a tribal warrior. But a little city shithead kid? Or some dumb bynners? Perfectly plausible, IMO.

I'm not much of a fan of retard, not because I care if it's offensive, but because I think there are better words to use for stupid that seem more appropriate to the setting. That said, I'd prefer if my dictionary doesn't get whittled away anymore than it actually has. I don't understand why someone would seek a game that has a feature of being gritty and then complain that they are offended. If you are catching this flack for some feature about your PC, might I suggest storing them and making a different one?

The other one that gets me is the use of words like "bitch".  I don't feel there has to be anything wrong with gendered words like this, but it's highly dependent on the usage.  If you say "some bitch just stole my purse" to mean a woman (whom you now dislike) stole your purse, that should probably be fine, as it is purely a dysphemistic physical description.  But if you say "she whines like a bitch", that is problematic, as it indicates a gender disparity between men and women. And Zalanthans would probably never refer to a man as a "bitch" (or a woman as a "dick", "prick" etc.), because the word wouldn't have any (negative) meaning by contrast.  It would just be confusing to people.

Well hey now, that's not exactly true. Perhaps that PC in your example means he whines like a female Gortok or Cur in heat. That's obviously a bit of a stretch, but walking up on the situation without understanding the context is a huge issue here. I remember once getting a lecture for using the word slut in game. It made complete sense from my characters perspective to think that way and use such a term, but I was rapidly accosted by a bystander to the situation. It seems like pretty bad practice to assume you understand why a PC acts in the manner they do without reading their bio or reports yourself.

I rarely come to video games looking for political statements. I don't come to a game set in post-apocolypse looking for an ideal world. I comply to the rules of the game because I don't find them very cumbersome, but I wouldn't be driven away if they were reduced. I'm rambling, but these are a couple of my thoughts.

[Refugee]

I'm saddened by this thread. 

Truly, anyone who plays this game should be able to separate the RP from real life.  Good grief, if you can't, then there should be things that disturb you much more than mere namecalling should.  There's a pile of rotting bodies in the middle of the city and children starving and none of us care.  We murder each other right and left, we lie and steal and betray each other.  But it's a game and it's that kind of game, and you can't make it a kinder, gentler game or frankly there won't be much going on with it.  It'll just be sort of a chat room.

It never occurred to me that "necker" sounded like this other RL word, but now it's in my head and that will never be the same again.  You start down this path and you can't ever go back.  We're gonna start tippy-toeing around in game because we're concerned someone can't separate IG and RL, and that's going to kill the game. 

It's a game for adults, and it's a gritty, dark, harsh game.  It's not for everyone and it can't be.  I understand there are troubling elements, and what troubles one person might not trouble another.  There are a couple of things that shake me up, too.  I'm seriously troubled by dead baby RP, it drags up deep grief I'd rather not RP.  But I wouldn't think to say, nobody can play that their child died or that they murdered someone's child.  Because it's that kind of game and if I can't handle it, I should find another game.  I knew a woman whose RL husband had died, and she found the RP around a dead mate very disturbing.  Well, that's certainly understandable.  But it was on her to deal or to find another game.  Because that's the game this is.

It's only a good game because it's emotionally wrenching, in my opinion.  Otherwise it's just a dated, 1980s-level text adventure game.  It's the relationships and the grief and the hilarity and the fear and the shock that makes it -good-. 

Don't make it bland by trying to make it inoffensive. 

[Lizzie]

I -never- equated the term "necker" with the real-world use of the word "N..." that I don't ever type or say. Why? Because I don't ever type or say that word. It's not part of my vocabulary, and I reject it, and I find it offensive to hear it when other people say it or type it. It bristles me from head to toe. Necker is long-neck, nicknamified. Has nothing to do with real world anything, unless you were to come across a giraffe on the road and want to come up with a spiffy name for it. It never even occurred to me that there could be a correlation between the two words til I read this thread.

The word "retard" is just childish. I don't take any kind of social offense from it, it's just a word used by little kids who don't know any better (and some adults who don't know any better). If I see someone use it in game, my character will simply put them on the same level, emotionally and mentally, as someone who doesn't know any better than to use a silly childish word to describe someone they either don't like, or is stupid. I won't allow it to pull me out of the game or submit a player complaint, because it has no value, positive or negative, in my life.

Words like "groovy," "cool," and even overuse of the word "awesome" to describe any little thing that makes your PC happy, those kinds of words are more jarring to me. Not offensive, just - anti-thematic. That's pretty much it.

[Harmless]

Nobody here is even slightly advocating for ooc language police or a complete ban of IC terms. If you want to use anachronistic terms without bothering to look into why it wouldn't fit in game, fine, but don't repeatedly spout it to troll "SJWs" by repeating it endlessly in game where such things don't make a lot of sense. It is just a request to use offensive terms with reason. I totally ignore the word retard, bitch, etc if they are dropped once in one sentence of a dialogue. If someone insists on denigrating someone purely based on their character's sex with an anachronistic term from RL publicly in a way that doesn't fit the setting I will report them, especially if it is clear the recipient didn't consent for that kind of adult RP. I do try to avoid being an ooc language police. Hate to say it but such things are needed and have actually been enforced. It isn't walking on eggshells. There are plenty of crude, rude and aggressive players who have gotten kudos from me who have made me uncomfortable with things like sexual or racial aggression. They used words in their roleplay that were more creative than "bitch" or "retard" or if they did, they kept it limited enough that I didn't lose my immersion that this was Zalanthas and not a middle school playground.

[Feco]

For a while now, I've felt like "necker" was a shitty joke.  A way some asshat took "long-neck"  and realized they could turn it into a phrase like "nigger."  To me, it feels the same as if we started saying "porch tregil."

I'm not claiming this is how it came about... But it wouldn't surprise me.  People are shitty.  I think it's important that we continue to explore real life themes, like racism and prejudice.  I also think it's important we let real life creep only so far into our fantasy.

I've used the word extensively.  I still use it.  I'm trying not to.  I'd be happy if we all collectively agreed to not use it.

And, for the record, I don't see "necker" anywhere in the docs.

Also, language and theme are heavily policed on Armageddon, already.  You can already be slapped for using terms like "bitch," "pussy," etc, in the same way you might use them in real life.  People get unreasonably upset about a lot of terms in real life, but at the *least*, in Arm, these terms don't make sense for the setting.

With regard to "retard," I just it's at least anachronistic.  Doesn't fit.

[Armaddict]

Listen.  Sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas.  This does not mean that no men think little women of women, or that no lesbians are man-haters.  This means that women are just as capable of reaching anywhere they want.  This means that man who says 'You're just a woman, blah blah' is a minority and is likely to make enemies based solely off of that viewpoint.  He'll face IC discipline at the hands of those who say that it's harmful.  It means that female templars are just as powerful as man templars.  It means there is no accepted or common argument that women are weaker then men.  To do so is a left-field way of thinking.

If a man comes into the Gaj and emotes about putting on his trench coat and sunglasses, that is anti-thematic.

If a man watches two gay men make out and says that's disgusting, that means it is a character that finds it disgusting and will be in a minority, the same as a dwarf who just happens to really like hanging out with elves.  They will face IC situations based off of that viewpoint.  It is not anti-thematic, it's playing characters with differences from the mold.  Somehow, we can make allowances for some people to play against the grain of some documentation, but if it comes to SJW topics from RL it just explodes for no reason other than someone removing their IC/OOC block and DEMANDING OOC JUSTICE FOR THIS IC VIEWPOINT.

If someone calls someone else a bitch, I pretty much guarantee they're using it as a contextual word rather than as a direct reference to 'you're acting like a woman and I'm trying to disrespect women'. 

In the case it's a veteran, they're probably well aware and you can probably talk to them about why they hold that view.  In the case it's a new player, it can't hurt to drop a line and make sure they understand what the 'common' view of things in the game is.  In the case that it's just a speech pattern, I really don't give two shits, because tiptoeing around words that are easily gotten around is utter silliness to me.

The idea that someone has faced 'corrective behavior' for use of the word bitch is insane to me.  Utterly insane.  "Stop being such a bitch" is a contextual statement that you've chosen to fixate on a word instead of the context and try to regulate someone else's play based off of complete and utter oversensitivity.  In every case, I'm guessing that the 'correction' consisted of telling them that it demeans women and the player replying 'Oh.  I was just using the common phrase.' rather than a long rhetorical conversation about why bitch fits into the game.

This is precisely why Mister/Miss was so utterly ridiculous to me as worthy of moderation.  Stop fixating on people's lingo and attaching more meaning to it than what is there.  Keep your real world fights in the real world.  If someone on the GDB starts calling you a fag or something offensive, I'll step right in beside you to defend you because they are directly attacking you, the player, in the real world (even if I think people need some thicker skin).

The problem with liberalism isn't that people care for other people or push for equality and change.  It's that it very easily turns from a protective atmosphere into an over-controlling one.  Do not go into over-controlling as this trend is pushing for.  People's PC's remain their own, and it's only if they are somehow -breaking the game- or -abusing the game- or -ignoring the game- that corrective action is needed.

I'm sorry, but if you are finding yourself in RL incredibly offended by a hairless dwarf using insulting language, if he's just utterly offensive to your OOC sensibilities, then this is not a friendly role-play environment to you.  You'll deal with contextual rough language all day.  It is not a requirement of ArmageddonMUD to learn an entirely new set of speech okays and not-okays to contribute here (though there is totally lingo to pick up to make your speech more, rather than less, immersive.  But I don't go around demanding action for poor english in my game written in english, or poor grammar in a text-based communication game).  React IC to minority-viewpoints.  Don't overfixate on words when the context is there.  Move on, have your character hang out with those you get along with, and that's it.

If someone is actually fighting the IC status quo in the name of sexism, report that.  If someone is actively fighting to make other sexualities unwelcome in game, report that.  If you're just trying to make Zalanthas into the beacon of equality that RL is not, because it says those things are not frowned upon in documentation, then you're missing the forest for the trees.

[Armaddict]

tl;dr

It's a far cry between a contextual statement and use of a word, and the principle that the word fits into actually existing.  Calling someone a bitch is not the same as actually bringing in the institution of sexism.  Likewise, 'corrective action' being an IC reaction to the viewpoint is utterly sensible and moving it to OOC bans of speech patterns is more of an IC/OOC barrier-breach than the contextual phrase ever was, in the vast majority of cases.

[sleepyhead]

Nobody here is even slightly advocating for ooc language police or a complete ban of IC terms.

I don't think you are. I just wonder why Nergal started this thread if he isn't wondering if certain terms shouldn't be used. The controversy over the word "necker" isn't a new one, but a thread has never been started in this manner by a high-ranking staff member. It could be that I'm totally jumping the gun, but I don't want to wait for him to announce that he's gathered his data and "necker" isn't OK anymore for me to put in my two cents about censorship.

[Chettaman]

I'm black.
I give you all permission to drop the N-bomb.
: D
Solving problems.

I won't lie. It didn't occur to me until like three years ago when I was playing and elf and decided to say something like, "Ay, what up neckuh?"
I really don't mind the maybe offense, though. it's just a word like any other, but I understand being a discussion board and game you probably have to respect more wishes than my own.

I suppose, on a legal note, to make things easier, I would suggest changing the slur "necker" to something else. I'm cool with it if it makes your lives easier, whoever care's lives less stressful, and no one gets a lawsuit.

[Feco]

Liberalism has nothing to do with this.  Why would you even bring it up?  Your post felt more or less like a response to mine, and I don't even identify as a liberal.

Also, you're conflating being offended with thinking that a word/theme/what have you shouldn't be a part of the game.  The word "necker" doesn't make me feel offended.  I do think it's looks a lot like a thinly veiled "nigger," I do think we should not use it, and I do think we lose nothing meaningful from the game world in not using it.

As a side note, I'd love to hear someone explain the word "necker" to a crowd of normal, non-Armers.  Something tells me they wouldn't react well.

Furthermore, imagine this wasn't part of the game.  Imagine none of the slang was.  Most of the slang, if it appeared today, I'd be like "okay neat.". If someone invented "necker" I'd wtf.  I think that's a fair sniff test.

[Armaddict]

Liberalism has nothing to do with this.  Why would you even bring it up?  Your post felt more or less like a response to mine, and I don't even identify as a liberal.

Also, you're conflating being offended with thinking that a word/theme/what have you shouldn't be a part of the game.  The word "necker" doesn't make me feel offended.  I do think it's looks a lot like a thinly veiled "nigger," I do think we should not use it, and I do think we lose nothing meaningful from the game world in not using it.

As a side note, I'd love to hear someone explain the word "necker" to a crowd of normal, non-Armers.  Something tells me they wouldn't react well.

Furthermore, imagine this wasn't part of the game.  Imagine none of the slang was.  Most of the slang, if it appeared today, I'd be like "okay neat.". If someone invented "necker" I'd wtf.  I think that's a fair sniff test.

You actually posted while I was posting.  I didn't even read yours.

However, liberalism was brought up because this is a line along current RL precepts.  I -am- a liberal, and I'm saying that this sort of behavior often derails into over-control rather than protectionism.  That's why it was brought up.  It's a gentle warning against going so gung-ho that you over-regulate to the point that you're not allowing people to play the game in a relaxed, 'I'm just roleplaying' atmosphere. Edit: To clarify, it was brought up because it's a case of IC racism being viewed through an OOC scope that coincides with liberal OOC values, and thus a correlation of OOC values being enforced in the game.  IC racism should not be tied into the OOC scope at all.

As far as the rest of that...you just kind of...proved my point of about the IC/OOC barrier breaking here.  I can't explain much of anything on Arm to non-armers, that doesn't mean we change it.  I don't argue that people in real life should murder and betray people more.  I don't argue that sexism doesn't exist in real life.  I don't argue that racism in real life sorts it out.

What I do argue is that such things being said in the game does not equivocate to the institutions of them existing in game.  Elves calling each other necker (which I refrain from, not because of OOC connotations, but because I think it's a really silly term to have caught on?  Necker out of longneck?  Really?) doesn't break the setting, nor does it have to be shoved into this position where it needs to stop being used because people are OOC'ly attaching things to it.  That is the essence of the whole thing.  Some people have chosen to get incredibly oversensitive over words in game despite context within the game.  They're twisting the IC context into an OOC context, just to be offended about it, then fight the OOC fight over it.

You argue that it shouldn't be in game.  And what my response to that is...who says?  Why not?  It's an OOC reason that you're stating it shouldn't be there, not an IC one.  It's certainly not -damaging- the game.  There are plenty of instances where immersion is broken by other things, we don't ban those things.  It's over-controlling play, for literally minimal, if any benefit, at the cost of some people's ability to just comfortably type in their dialogues and not worry about everything being overanalyzed to death.

[Armaddict]

And it should be noted:

Long-ear
Slant-eye (briefly, it didn't really catch on the way the neck stuff did)
sharp-ear
longneck
neck
necker
skinny

These have all been slurs for elves over the years.  They are, for the most part, themed.  Never, until any of this discussion, did it even occur to me that one could be mistaken for a morph from a RL term.  I don't think it was.  I don't think anyone treated it like it was until someone pointed it out.  It's a misconstruction in the first place.

[sleepyhead]

I don't expect non-Armers to understand. I don't expect them to understand a lot of things about the game or game culture and I don't want them to be the ones who judge it and decide the direction of it. We don't allow rape in Arm anymore, but we still allow powerful people to coerce powerless people into sexual favors (with OOC consent), and we say that isn't rape according to the rules. I think a lot of people would be offended by that, especially people who have been sexually manipulated in such a way. I 100% empathize with anyone who's upset by that. But...I don't want their offense to dictate what we do as a community.

"Necker" isn't my hill to die on. I don't love the word so much I'm not willing to give it up. I do think that because of the reminder of the N-word, it seems more real than words like "sharp," which don't emotionally affect me whatsoever and will never sound offensive to my (round) ear as long as I play this game. "Necker" stings a bit, and I think that's a good thing. It's a rare fantasy insult that can evoke that feeling. Abomination is another that stings, probably partially because as it's been mentioned, it's a word that reminds us of how people have been hurt IRL. I think if we strip our Fantastic Racism of anything that might cause RL offense, we risk becoming OOCly callous to it, and I think that's a bad thing.

I wonder why that particular word is always on the chopping block but not words that don't just remind people of hurtful things, but are hurtful things players may have personally been called, and for the exact same reasons. If I'm of Native American descent and I play a tribal IG, I might be called a dirty, disgusting, superstitious, backwards, primitive savage. I might have my religious beliefs mocked, ridiculed, and gawked at in the worst kind of way. How is this not just as potentially upsetting, if not more so, than exposure to a word that is a vague reminder of or stand-in for another word that no one in their right mind would ever say IG, in reference to a kind of racism that does not exist IG whatsoever?

[FantasyWriter]

I don't think I've ever heard the word retard in game. The word, if I remember my music Italian properly comes from the word meaning slow or to slow.  If someone is very slow at learning thing, I think it is appropriate usage. Psychology on the level we understand it is not require to understand that some people learn slower than others.

Sexist insults should not be part of the game per docs. I've seen them very, very rarely in game and usually by very new players and they were politely corrected.

Racism is a real thing in Armageddon, so, at the risk of sounding insensitive, if you are offended/triggered by racism, you probably shouldn't be participating in an expressive art where racism is both rampant and expected.

The necker thing is a very, very silly thing to get offended by. It would be like me being offended by hearing words that in in -acker that -aren't- cracker.  The similarities between the two words are a coincidence of the English language.  A game with the tagline 'Murder, Corruption, Betrayal' should be warning enough for people to expect harsh language.

[FantasyWriter]

Nergal,

Has their ever been a complaint about the word necker or anything else along this line?

[Armaddict]

Nergal,

Has their ever been a complaint about the word necker or anything else along this line?

...right.  We might be getting tangled up in a mire that doesn't have to be there.  What sort of removals are we talking about here?  Are they common things?

[TheHandmaid]

For me it is not so much the swear-slang of the usual flavors such as bitch, dick, etc. I don't really mind necker. In truth, I didn't notice the closeness until pointed out, but even still, I know it is a different word. I don't usually read out the words I see on my screen nor to I read them out as I type them.

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc. This stuff is extremely distracting when seen during roleplay, it takes me right out of immersion. I do not really like the use of retard because it is a lazy attempt at writing as 99% of the time the player is using it to describe someone being utterly stupid. Be creative. The use of 'snerk' destroys any immersion I had the moment I see it.

In the past I have seen some horribly discriminating terms used by players ICly, things against most LGBTQ, but staff and other players have been really, really good about making that nigh extinct. I enjoy that I can play this game without too much sexism. There is always a little sexism, but it gets squeezed to death out of newbies and I would hope that teaches players a valuable lesson about the rest of the world as well.

[Nergal]

Nergal,

Has their ever been a complaint about the word necker or anything else along this line?

Yes

[sleepyhead]

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc.

People say those things IG?

[Feco]

So we're all on the same page, I don't think anyone wants to remove a theme.  Exploring prejudice, racism, xenophobia, etc. as themes is interesting, and dare I say important.

But I do think we should be careful to leave the content of our themes in fantasy.  This is a game, and I only want to get so real.  This is about doing cool shit and having fun.

I'm not for removing terms that offend people.  I'm not advocating any general rule.  Sterilizing the game world with such general rules would not be cool or fun.

I'm specifically saying that we not use "necker," because I think that word, in particular, touches too close to reality in a way that doesn't facilitate any funness or coolness.

I'd prefer if we did that as a community agreement, and not as a staff rule.  I think that would be more meaningful.

It's not in the docs.  If we stop using it, it probably vanishes.

[sleepyhead]

You are free not to use "necker" and so is anyone who doesn't like its use. In time, if the majority of people start using "sharp" exclusively, "necker" won't be thrown around IG anymore. I've perceived it already happening, and so has Harmless.

Let's just not suddenly say "if you use 'necker' you will be disciplined." I realize no one's advocated that, and I really hope it stays that way. I don't much like the idea of shaming each other out of it, either, but as long as it's not an edict coming from above I can tolerate it.

[Feco]

I don't think a laissez faire approach is the right one.

Is there anyone who would like to defend using the word "necker?"

A lot of people have spoke up against general rules about censorship.  That's fine.  But is anyone willing to defend "necker" specifically, because they want to keep using it?  Not because they don't like censorship?

If not, why are we even talking about this?  Let's just agree as a community not to use it.

[Armaddict]

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc. This stuff is extremely distracting when seen during roleplay, it takes me right out of immersion. I do not really like the use of retard because it is a lazy attempt at writing as 99% of the time the player is using it to describe someone being utterly stupid. Be creative. The use of 'snerk' destroys any immersion I had the moment I see it.

This is what I meant when I was alluding to other areas where people were completely fine with it, because it was viewed as comedic.  This is more out-of-setting than racist or sexist terms for me.  It's great that you want to be funny, but I once saw a 'tickle me elmo' reference in game that straight irritated the hell out of me.  But everyone thought it was so funny and awesome.

Sexist terms like bitch, I acknowledge that those words likely never would have evolved into existence in Armageddon.  But I think they are natural patterns of speech that do not carry the sexism that the word sprouts out of into the game.  (This may be a bad example, but I still -occasionally- say 'That's gay.' in RL.  I don't mean any injustice to gay people, I have no qualms with gay people, it's just a speech pattern; I've never had one of the numerous gay people around me get offended by it, but I imagine a gay stranger would.)  Things like this I think are an overanalysis in the eye of some readers.

As noted above, I purposely avoid the use of necker whenever possible.  Not because of the OOC similarity, but because I think that such is a very falsely contrived correlation, and because I think their ears and build and habits are far more suitable targets for racism.  If I saw someone use a statement like 'Only my neck friends can call me necker', then yes, I'd likely ask for there to be a line of dialogue about not associating the term with a real life one.  But that correlation is completely non-existent to me, having seen it spring up directly from longneck and neck.

Let's just not suddenly say "if you use 'necker' you will be disciplined." I realize no one's advocated that, and I really hope it stays that way. I don't much like the idea of shaming each other out of it, either, but as long as it's not an edict coming from above I can tolerate it.

My problem is I try to explain my position too much.  But this is pretty much me as well in a nutshell, minus explaining why I have that position.

[Feco]

As noted above, I purposely avoid the use of necker whenever possible.  Not because of the OOC similarity because I think that such is a very falsely contrived correlation, but because I think their ears and build and habits are far more suitable targets for racism.  If I saw someone use a statement like 'Only my neck friends can call me necker', then yes, I'd likely ask for there to be a line of dialogue about not associating the term with a real life one.  But that correlation is completely non-existent to me, having seen it spring up directly from longneck and neck.

I don't have logs, but I've at least seen "my necka" in game.

[Armaddict]

Is there anyone who would like to defend using the word "necker?"

A lot of people have spoke up against general rules about censorship.  That's fine.  But is anyone willing to defend "necker" specifically, because they want to keep using it?  Not because they don't like censorship?

I think those statements together are a trap.  We aren't necessarily defending necker, which makes you say it should be removed, but we are saying that removing things is bad, so I, of course, have to continue to say that it's not about the word but the action of over-controlling the roleplay of the game for the sake of perceptions of some players over others.

Some people, that's been part of their elven roleplay every time they've played an elf, because every elf they met was doing it, and it's integrated.  I have no qualms with that, nor do I think they should assume they've been doing it wrong or poorly; most of those who play with my elves realize quickly that I don't use it, and it tones down, but that doesn't mean my way is the only way to do it.

I don't have logs, but I've at least seen "my necka" in game.

I've seen people abuse coded commands in game and misuse them based on misunderstanding.  We do not remove those commands, we remind them what its for, where it came from, etc.  I've seen people insist Milord and M'lord are different, one acceptable and the other not, and we did not remove one or the other from the game to clear it up.  If necker is more immersion breaking than outright OOC tomfoolery with half-giants to be funny, or song lyrics in game being reminiscent or modified from real life songs, again...I politely assert you, OOC'ly, are sensitive to it and you're looking to change the game for the benefit of a personal perception.

[sleepyhead]

Yes, Feco, I've directly defended the word "necker" itself several times here. It's not that "necker" is such a draw to me that I weep at the prospect of losing it, but I think it's far better and more effective than "sharp" and it doesn't bode well for the game if we start banning words, not for being directly sexist, Earth-racist, or homophobic, but for being reminiscent of RL offensive terms. I've said multiple times that I think the sting of the word (because of its OOC reminder) is a strength, not a reason to ban it.

But I've also made it clear (I hope) that it isn't really about "necker" to me, when it comes down to it. And I don't think you can reasonably say "this is just about the word 'necker' and nothing else," because like it or not, it does set a precedent if you ban an IG slang term that's been around for years. It does send the message "we don't like words that may be offensive to people IRL."

I don't like when people say things like "my necka." That kind of OOC winkwinknudgenudge isn't really what we should be talking about here. It's whether the term itself is unacceptable or not.

[Feco]

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was specifically defending "necker." That's my point.

I completely understand the general argument against censorship, and I understand that's what everyone here is arguing.

But, I'm still interested if anyone is interested in defending their personal use of the word.

[Miradus]

You have entire clans whose core documentation is that they hate other races and outsiders.

Going to retcon all those?

One of the basic distinctions of racism is that its a minority group who is powerless in the face of institutionalized prejudices that actively discriminate against them.

*cough* Allanak *cough*

Can someone get triggered by this? Yes. And people have. And they left the game.

But if you rip it all out, you're going to be left with a really shitty setting. We'll all be sitting in the Gaj, except it won't be the Gaj anymore because all the world echoes about breeds and neckers and such will be ripped out, and we'll all be sipping our tea and using only scrubbed "safe words" to interact with each other.

[Nergal]

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc. This stuff is extremely distracting when seen during roleplay, it takes me right out of immersion. I do not really like the use of retard because it is a lazy attempt at writing as 99% of the time the player is using it to describe someone being utterly stupid. Be creative. The use of 'snerk' destroys any immersion I had the moment I see it.

This should be reported as a player complaint under Rule #1: The roleplaying requirement, if/when it actually happens. It's not within the scope of this discussion. We're talking primarily about pejoratives here.

In the past I have seen some horribly discriminating terms used by players ICly, things against most LGBTQ, but staff and other players have been really, really good about making that nigh extinct. I enjoy that I can play this game without too much sexism. There is always a little sexism, but it gets squeezed to death out of newbies and I would hope that teaches players a valuable lesson about the rest of the world as well.

Yes, I think sexism is not a huge issue within the game and most people are good about not letting it leak in from outside.

[Nergal]

Additionally, I find the notion that this thread was only posted to eventually ban words to be ridiculously accusatory and offensive.
1) Staff are allowed to put things up for discussion when they receive complaints. That's a thing that happens.
2) If we wanted to just outright ban stuff, we'd do it.

[Feco]

You have entire clans whose core documentation is that they hate other races and outsiders.

Going to retcon all those?

One of the basic distinctions of racism is that its a minority group who is powerless in the face of institutionalized prejudices that actively discriminate against them.

*cough* Allanak *cough*

Can someone get triggered by this? Yes. And people have. And they left the game.

But if you rip it all out, you're going to be left with a really shitty setting. We'll all be sitting in the Gaj, except it won't be the Gaj anymore because all the world echoes about breeds and neckers and such will be ripped out, and we'll all be sipping our tea and using only scrubbed "safe words" to interact with each other.

No one advocated removing offensive things as a rule.

I'm not claiming to have a set of objective principles by which to determine if words should be discouraged.

I am saying "necker" passes a sort of sniff test.  It's the general usage, the phonetic similarity, and the way people have made OOC nods via phrases like "my necka."

I'm just sharing my experiences, though.  I'm interested in others'.

[Armaddict]

Additionally, I find the notion that this thread was only posted to eventually ban words to be ridiculously accusatory and offensive.
1) Staff are allowed to put things up for discussion when they receive complaints. That's a thing that happens.
2) If we wanted to just outright ban stuff, we'd do it.

Such actions have been taken before, so apologies, but that's where I saw it leading.

Is it more to increase awareness that this could be seen this way, and hopefully see players be more careful/responsible around it?

[Nergal]

You have entire clans whose core documentation is that they hate other races and outsiders.

Going to retcon all those?

One of the basic distinctions of racism is that its a minority group who is powerless in the face of institutionalized prejudices that actively discriminate against them.

*cough* Allanak *cough*

Can someone get triggered by this? Yes. And people have. And they left the game.

But if you rip it all out, you're going to be left with a really shitty setting. We'll all be sitting in the Gaj, except it won't be the Gaj anymore because all the world echoes about breeds and neckers and such will be ripped out, and we'll all be sipping our tea and using only scrubbed "safe words" to interact with each other.

You're talking about themes, we're talking about specific pejoratives. This is a blatant slippery slope fallacy. Let's try to have a slightly smarter discussion than that.

[Nergal]

Additionally, I find the notion that this thread was only posted to eventually ban words to be ridiculously accusatory and offensive.
1) Staff are allowed to put things up for discussion when they receive complaints. That's a thing that happens.
2) If we wanted to just outright ban stuff, we'd do it.

Such actions have been taken before, so apologies, but that's where I saw it leading.

Is it more to increase awareness that this could be seen this way, and hopefully see players be more careful/responsible around it?

Yes

[sleepyhead]

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, Nergal, I'm just playing it safe and making sure I get my two cents in just in case it's on the table. I don't think anyone's going out of their way to think the worst of you or claim you're not allowed to do this; they're just speculating about where this discussion might eventually end up.

Maybe we've jumped the gun a bit with talk of banning words, but please don't think we're trying to insult you personally. We just don't know what kind of discussions are going on staffside.

[Armaddict]

No problems with that.  As noted, I find some of them silly.

I've asked this question on Discord a couple of times, but I was curious if any players feel that there's any potentially uncomfortable crossover between pejorative slang words used in Armageddon, and pejorative slang words used in real life. If so, what is it, and why?

I saw this as a staff data-return that if there were players who were sensitive to it, all other players would be told to accomodate.  Which is where I had the issue.  I have no issue with 'soft touches' on trends to steer them away as a consensus of playerbase through behavior.

[Kankfly]

I haven't read carefully everything else others have contributed to this thread, but here's my take on it:

Armageddon is a RPI, and prejudice is something that is a prevalant theme in this RP environment. While I'm all pro-equality and unity amongst mankind IRL, part of the reason why Arm attracted me was the prejudice. It doesn't mean it's because I'm a secret, in-the-closet prejudiced person IRL and I really need to hash it out IG, it's because the various form of prejudice IG enriches the stories and personalities of my PCs as well as all the other characters my PCs interact with.

I like to think of myself as a mature and insightful player that is able to seperate IC and OOC, and I trust my fellow players to be the same. If my PC happens to be racist against a certain IG racial/tribal/etc group, that is because I, as a player, wrote out my PC that way, and it's not because I'm translating some form of OOC prejudice into something IC. I do not feel victimized or insulted OOCly if I happen to play a race, and another PC threw a racial slur at me, because that is what that character is about, and it helps me to figure out how my PC will react to such situations.

For me, this is a non-issue. I'm not sure why this question is posed, but I feel like this problem isn't, and shouldn't be a problem at all. We hope to build a RP environment where certain things are explored: Corruption, betrayal, murder, greed, power, prejudice, etc. Our stories revolve around these themes, and it wouldn't have happened the way it did if we didn't have these themes at all. If there are players bothered by the racial slurs and slangs used, then perhaps a better solution is to encourage that these are all IC and shouldn't be taken into an OOC context. I can't tell you how many times whenever I see a character being prejudice/racist, it only makes me want to interact with that character more, because it feels so Arm-realistic to me.

[Miradus]

You're talking about themes, we're talking about specific pejoratives. This is a blatant slippery slope fallacy. Let's try to have a slightly smarter discussion than that.

Wrong.

Speech patterns help define themes. Necker, breed, southie, rinther, wall dweller, Black Pit, Stormer, gick, witch. All pejoratives, but also descriptive words, and all define themes.

Seriously, man. In this age of SJW and virtue signaling and trigger warnings ... the only way to have a smart discussion around this shit is to not have the discussion at all. Because now when a couple of people talk about their hurt feelings, you're just going to end up looking like an asshole when you don't go ban whatever it was that hurt their feelings.

[sleepyhead]

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that anyone was specifically defending "necker." That's my point.

I completely understand the general argument against censorship, and I understand that's what everyone here is arguing.

But, I'm still interested if anyone is interested in defending their personal use of the word.

I keep telling you, I'm defending it. I think it's a good bad word. I know it doesn't really fit the sensibilities du jour and I always wondered if it would one day not be cool anymore and fall out of use either from being banned or just being deemed unacceptable by the playerbase. But I still like it for exactly the reasons other people hate it.

[Nergal]

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, Nergal, I'm just playing it safe and making sure I get my two cents in just in case it's on the table. I don't think anyone's going out of their way to think the worst of you or claim you're not allowed to do this; they're just speculating about where this discussion might eventually end up.

Maybe we've jumped the gun a bit with talk of banning words, but please don't think we're trying to insult you personally. We just don't know what kind of discussions are going on staffside.

I don't feel accused or insulted. It offends my intelligence more than anything. But it's absurdly fatalist to look at a staff-started discussion and decide that staff are going to do whatever they're going to do and that there's nothing players can do about it. We're the game's DMs by some measure of player consensus (in that players agree to play the game under the staff chosen from among the playerbase).

The logical extension is that sometimes, DMs will make choices along the lines of what players want, and sometimes, DMs will make choices along the lines of what is sensible based on their interpretation of what the setting needs. I obviously want player input on this matter or I would not have put the matter up for discussion. Whether I value that input ultimately depends on how it's presented, however.

[Nergal]

You're talking about themes, we're talking about specific pejoratives. This is a blatant slippery slope fallacy. Let's try to have a slightly smarter discussion than that.

Wrong.

Speech patterns help define themes. Necker, breed, southie, rinther, wall dweller, Black Pit, Stormer, gick, witch. All pejoratives, but also descriptive words, and all define themes.

Seriously, man. In this age of SJW and virtue signaling and trigger warnings ... the only way to have a smart discussion around this shit is to not have the discussion at all. Because now when a couple of people talk about their hurt feelings, you're just going to end up looking like an asshole when you don't go ban whatever it was that hurt their feelings.

If you don't want to have the discussion, then don't.

[Miradus]

...But it's absurdly fatalist to look at a staff-started discussion and decide that staff are going to do whatever they're going to do and that there's nothing players can do about it. We're the game's DMs by some measure of player ...

Are you the same person who just posted this?

"2) If we wanted to just outright ban stuff, we'd do it."

Not going to win in a pissing contest against an imm, but you should absolutely know that your words carry more weight in this discussion than other people's and when you bring it up then it's an unspoken possibility of leading to a ban, a retcon, or something else.

That's why I stand on my advice of not having this conversation at all. If someone is going around deliberately being offensive to trigger people then deal with that on a one on one.

[sleepyhead]

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, Nergal, I'm just playing it safe and making sure I get my two cents in just in case it's on the table. I don't think anyone's going out of their way to think the worst of you or claim you're not allowed to do this; they're just speculating about where this discussion might eventually end up.

Maybe we've jumped the gun a bit with talk of banning words, but please don't think we're trying to insult you personally. We just don't know what kind of discussions are going on staffside.

I don't feel accused or insulted. It offends my intelligence more than anything. But it's absurdly fatalist to look at a staff-started discussion and decide that staff are going to do whatever they're going to do and that there's nothing players can do about it. We're the game's DMs by some measure of player consensus (in that players agree to play the game under the staff chosen from among the playerbase).

The logical extension is that sometimes, DMs will make choices along the lines of what players want, and sometimes, DMs will make choices along the lines of what is sensible based on their interpretation of what the setting needs. I obviously want player input on this matter or I would not have put the matter up for discussion. Whether I value that input ultimately depends on how it's presented, however.

Well, that's what we're doing: giving player input! If I ever thought it was a foregone conclusion I'd just type a few annoyed words and be done with it. I never had any reason to think you were anything but sincere when you asked for our opinions on the matter.

We can be a little fatalistic sometimes, but again, you have to remember that a lot of the time we are missing half the discussion (and even when we're not, we think we might be). And when a person in power conducts a survey, I think it's natural to assume that they're doing it to help them decide what kind of policy to enact. It's wrong to assume your motives and especially wrong to assume more and more steps based off hasty conclusions, but I think it's normal based on how in the dark we are about staff discussions and intentions.

[650Booger]

I'm still interested if anyone is interested in defending their personal use of the word.

I intend to continue calling elves neckers, yes.  I don't feel a need to defend myself about it, either.  the burden is on you to convince me why it should not be used, and I have not read anything convincing.

[Nergal]

...But it's absurdly fatalist to look at a staff-started discussion and decide that staff are going to do whatever they're going to do and that there's nothing players can do about it. We're the game's DMs by some measure of player ...

Are you the same person who just posted this?

"2) If we wanted to just outright ban stuff, we'd do it."

Not going to win in a pissing contest against an imm, but you should absolutely know that your words carry more weight in this discussion than other people's and when you bring it up then it's an unspoken possibility of leading to a ban, a retcon, or something else.

That's why I stand on my advice of not having this conversation at all. If someone is going around deliberately being offensive to trigger people then deal with that on a one on one.

You're bringing up overly-restrictive nonsense like SJW - a term I find laughable since it says more about the person using it than the person targeted by it - about a simple discussion trying to sample players' feelings on a particular matter, then you're trying to restrict the discussion by suggesting it shouldn't have come up in the first place. If you're triggered by my attempt to poll the playerbase, then don't read the thread.

Like I said earlier: if I wanted to approach this from an angle of banning words, I would have collected a list of words I don't like, and the OP would have been "Here's words I don't like. <list of words> Don't use them again or you'll be banned."

[Riev]

Nergal, I would suggest taking a step back as the vocal Imm, and please stop in-fighting with a vast minority of people in the discussion. For what its worth, you throwing your weight around about how you could ban things if you wanted to, puts a real sour taste in the mouth of me, as a player, and says more about your style as a producer of this game than it does about the game's direction.

On topic, I agree with what seems to be the general majority, in that the pejoratives aren't an issue. I don't think things like "cool" or "awesome" are anachronistic, or 'ruin mah immerzions' or anything, but I think they're the words of people who  currently lack proper descriptive words. We aren't all writers, some people are attracted to the theme and HAVEN'T written three books and read all of GRR Martin's books. I think its perfectly alright that either staff give a gentle remind that "we're in a desert world, something being 'cool' isn't really a term we generally use" and let them come up with a better way to say it.

I feel that sometimes its forgotten that not everyone who plays this game has the same grasp of language, the flowery emotes, or the roleplaying styles we all agree with. But if you want to be sure these kinds of things don't bleed in, make it known. Don't expect people to 'just know'.

I remember having a problem in Tuluk, on a sponsored role, because I didn't understand why a Templar would care about calling someone "Chosen" when it wasn't documented, it wasn't a big deal, and it was kind of something the playerbase just made up. But apparently I was incredibly in the wrong, and chastised over it, because I was "acting like a southerner". If you want rules, make rules. If you want guidelines, make guidelines. If you want people to follow your rules and guidelines, MAKE SURE THEY KNOW THEM. All else is just flavor.

[Feco]

I'm still interested if anyone is interested in defending their personal use of the word.

I intend to continue calling elves neckers, yes.  I don't feel a need to defend myself about it, either.  the burden is on you to convince me why it should not be used, and I have not read anything convincing.

How would you feel if "porch tregil" caught on?  I feel the same way about "necker," for whatever reason, as I would about that.  I assume it's the mix of the way it would be/is used, and the obvious similarity of the terms.

I'd question the judgment of anyone who thought "porch tregil" was okay to use in game.

"Offensive" doesn't capture what I think of it, though.  Obviously words like "nigger" are offensive, and I recognize that, but I'm not feeling offended.  I'm thinking it's more jarring, stupid, and out if place.

This is based on my experience with the word, though.  Maybe yours are different.  This isn't a court of law where you have to play the burden of proof game.  You're being invited to share.

And again: I'm not claiming to have an objective set of principles that outline why.  Mostly because I haven't given it that much thought.

[Nergal]

Nergal, I would suggest taking a step back as the vocal Imm, and please stop in-fighting with a vast minority of people in the discussion. For what its worth, you throwing your weight around about how you could ban things if you wanted to, puts a real sour taste in the mouth of me, as a player, and says more about your style as a producer of this game than it does about the game's direction.

I wasn't throwing my weight around at all. On the contrary, I was stating my intentions about the thread.

This is me throwing my weight around:

Staff would like to see players stop using the word necker to refer to elves, and stop using sexist insults framed against people (e.g. bitch, dick, cunt). We'll be taking the word bitch out of the curses helpfile for its lack of thematic sense. We do not find the word necker to be as thematic as other established words for elves such as sharpear and it is not in the curses helpfile. There is clear evidence that the word "necker" is used as a stand-in for the word "nigger", and regardless of whether it started that way or devolved to hold that place in that game over time, staff believe that this is the best way forward.

We will give players a month or so to phase such words out of their characters' vocabulary. By August we will expect such words to not be in use anymore, and approach players who do use them on an individual basis.

Thread locked.