Armageddon's slang and RL crossover

[Refugee]

I'm saddened by this thread. 

Truly, anyone who plays this game should be able to separate the RP from real life.  Good grief, if you can't, then there should be things that disturb you much more than mere namecalling should.  There's a pile of rotting bodies in the middle of the city and children starving and none of us care.  We murder each other right and left, we lie and steal and betray each other.  But it's a game and it's that kind of game, and you can't make it a kinder, gentler game or frankly there won't be much going on with it.  It'll just be sort of a chat room.

It never occurred to me that "necker" sounded like this other RL word, but now it's in my head and that will never be the same again.  You start down this path and you can't ever go back.  We're gonna start tippy-toeing around in game because we're concerned someone can't separate IG and RL, and that's going to kill the game. 

It's a game for adults, and it's a gritty, dark, harsh game.  It's not for everyone and it can't be.  I understand there are troubling elements, and what troubles one person might not trouble another.  There are a couple of things that shake me up, too.  I'm seriously troubled by dead baby RP, it drags up deep grief I'd rather not RP.  But I wouldn't think to say, nobody can play that their child died or that they murdered someone's child.  Because it's that kind of game and if I can't handle it, I should find another game.  I knew a woman whose RL husband had died, and she found the RP around a dead mate very disturbing.  Well, that's certainly understandable.  But it was on her to deal or to find another game.  Because that's the game this is.

It's only a good game because it's emotionally wrenching, in my opinion.  Otherwise it's just a dated, 1980s-level text adventure game.  It's the relationships and the grief and the hilarity and the fear and the shock that makes it -good-. 

Don't make it bland by trying to make it inoffensive. 

[Lizzie]

I -never- equated the term "necker" with the real-world use of the word "N..." that I don't ever type or say. Why? Because I don't ever type or say that word. It's not part of my vocabulary, and I reject it, and I find it offensive to hear it when other people say it or type it. It bristles me from head to toe. Necker is long-neck, nicknamified. Has nothing to do with real world anything, unless you were to come across a giraffe on the road and want to come up with a spiffy name for it. It never even occurred to me that there could be a correlation between the two words til I read this thread.

The word "retard" is just childish. I don't take any kind of social offense from it, it's just a word used by little kids who don't know any better (and some adults who don't know any better). If I see someone use it in game, my character will simply put them on the same level, emotionally and mentally, as someone who doesn't know any better than to use a silly childish word to describe someone they either don't like, or is stupid. I won't allow it to pull me out of the game or submit a player complaint, because it has no value, positive or negative, in my life.

Words like "groovy," "cool," and even overuse of the word "awesome" to describe any little thing that makes your PC happy, those kinds of words are more jarring to me. Not offensive, just - anti-thematic. That's pretty much it.

[Harmless]

Nobody here is even slightly advocating for ooc language police or a complete ban of IC terms. If you want to use anachronistic terms without bothering to look into why it wouldn't fit in game, fine, but don't repeatedly spout it to troll "SJWs" by repeating it endlessly in game where such things don't make a lot of sense. It is just a request to use offensive terms with reason. I totally ignore the word retard, bitch, etc if they are dropped once in one sentence of a dialogue. If someone insists on denigrating someone purely based on their character's sex with an anachronistic term from RL publicly in a way that doesn't fit the setting I will report them, especially if it is clear the recipient didn't consent for that kind of adult RP. I do try to avoid being an ooc language police. Hate to say it but such things are needed and have actually been enforced. It isn't walking on eggshells. There are plenty of crude, rude and aggressive players who have gotten kudos from me who have made me uncomfortable with things like sexual or racial aggression. They used words in their roleplay that were more creative than "bitch" or "retard" or if they did, they kept it limited enough that I didn't lose my immersion that this was Zalanthas and not a middle school playground.

[Feco]

For a while now, I've felt like "necker" was a shitty joke.  A way some asshat took "long-neck"  and realized they could turn it into a phrase like "nigger."  To me, it feels the same as if we started saying "porch tregil."

I'm not claiming this is how it came about... But it wouldn't surprise me.  People are shitty.  I think it's important that we continue to explore real life themes, like racism and prejudice.  I also think it's important we let real life creep only so far into our fantasy.

I've used the word extensively.  I still use it.  I'm trying not to.  I'd be happy if we all collectively agreed to not use it.

And, for the record, I don't see "necker" anywhere in the docs.

Also, language and theme are heavily policed on Armageddon, already.  You can already be slapped for using terms like "bitch," "pussy," etc, in the same way you might use them in real life.  People get unreasonably upset about a lot of terms in real life, but at the *least*, in Arm, these terms don't make sense for the setting.

With regard to "retard," I just it's at least anachronistic.  Doesn't fit.

[Armaddict]

Listen.  Sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas.  This does not mean that no men think little women of women, or that no lesbians are man-haters.  This means that women are just as capable of reaching anywhere they want.  This means that man who says 'You're just a woman, blah blah' is a minority and is likely to make enemies based solely off of that viewpoint.  He'll face IC discipline at the hands of those who say that it's harmful.  It means that female templars are just as powerful as man templars.  It means there is no accepted or common argument that women are weaker then men.  To do so is a left-field way of thinking.

If a man comes into the Gaj and emotes about putting on his trench coat and sunglasses, that is anti-thematic.

If a man watches two gay men make out and says that's disgusting, that means it is a character that finds it disgusting and will be in a minority, the same as a dwarf who just happens to really like hanging out with elves.  They will face IC situations based off of that viewpoint.  It is not anti-thematic, it's playing characters with differences from the mold.  Somehow, we can make allowances for some people to play against the grain of some documentation, but if it comes to SJW topics from RL it just explodes for no reason other than someone removing their IC/OOC block and DEMANDING OOC JUSTICE FOR THIS IC VIEWPOINT.

If someone calls someone else a bitch, I pretty much guarantee they're using it as a contextual word rather than as a direct reference to 'you're acting like a woman and I'm trying to disrespect women'. 

In the case it's a veteran, they're probably well aware and you can probably talk to them about why they hold that view.  In the case it's a new player, it can't hurt to drop a line and make sure they understand what the 'common' view of things in the game is.  In the case that it's just a speech pattern, I really don't give two shits, because tiptoeing around words that are easily gotten around is utter silliness to me.

The idea that someone has faced 'corrective behavior' for use of the word bitch is insane to me.  Utterly insane.  "Stop being such a bitch" is a contextual statement that you've chosen to fixate on a word instead of the context and try to regulate someone else's play based off of complete and utter oversensitivity.  In every case, I'm guessing that the 'correction' consisted of telling them that it demeans women and the player replying 'Oh.  I was just using the common phrase.' rather than a long rhetorical conversation about why bitch fits into the game.

This is precisely why Mister/Miss was so utterly ridiculous to me as worthy of moderation.  Stop fixating on people's lingo and attaching more meaning to it than what is there.  Keep your real world fights in the real world.  If someone on the GDB starts calling you a fag or something offensive, I'll step right in beside you to defend you because they are directly attacking you, the player, in the real world (even if I think people need some thicker skin).

The problem with liberalism isn't that people care for other people or push for equality and change.  It's that it very easily turns from a protective atmosphere into an over-controlling one.  Do not go into over-controlling as this trend is pushing for.  People's PC's remain their own, and it's only if they are somehow -breaking the game- or -abusing the game- or -ignoring the game- that corrective action is needed.

I'm sorry, but if you are finding yourself in RL incredibly offended by a hairless dwarf using insulting language, if he's just utterly offensive to your OOC sensibilities, then this is not a friendly role-play environment to you.  You'll deal with contextual rough language all day.  It is not a requirement of ArmageddonMUD to learn an entirely new set of speech okays and not-okays to contribute here (though there is totally lingo to pick up to make your speech more, rather than less, immersive.  But I don't go around demanding action for poor english in my game written in english, or poor grammar in a text-based communication game).  React IC to minority-viewpoints.  Don't overfixate on words when the context is there.  Move on, have your character hang out with those you get along with, and that's it.

If someone is actually fighting the IC status quo in the name of sexism, report that.  If someone is actively fighting to make other sexualities unwelcome in game, report that.  If you're just trying to make Zalanthas into the beacon of equality that RL is not, because it says those things are not frowned upon in documentation, then you're missing the forest for the trees.

[Armaddict]

tl;dr

It's a far cry between a contextual statement and use of a word, and the principle that the word fits into actually existing.  Calling someone a bitch is not the same as actually bringing in the institution of sexism.  Likewise, 'corrective action' being an IC reaction to the viewpoint is utterly sensible and moving it to OOC bans of speech patterns is more of an IC/OOC barrier-breach than the contextual phrase ever was, in the vast majority of cases.

[sleepyhead]

Nobody here is even slightly advocating for ooc language police or a complete ban of IC terms.

I don't think you are. I just wonder why Nergal started this thread if he isn't wondering if certain terms shouldn't be used. The controversy over the word "necker" isn't a new one, but a thread has never been started in this manner by a high-ranking staff member. It could be that I'm totally jumping the gun, but I don't want to wait for him to announce that he's gathered his data and "necker" isn't OK anymore for me to put in my two cents about censorship.

[Chettaman]

I'm black.
I give you all permission to drop the N-bomb.
: D
Solving problems.

I won't lie. It didn't occur to me until like three years ago when I was playing and elf and decided to say something like, "Ay, what up neckuh?"
I really don't mind the maybe offense, though. it's just a word like any other, but I understand being a discussion board and game you probably have to respect more wishes than my own.

I suppose, on a legal note, to make things easier, I would suggest changing the slur "necker" to something else. I'm cool with it if it makes your lives easier, whoever care's lives less stressful, and no one gets a lawsuit.

[Feco]

Liberalism has nothing to do with this.  Why would you even bring it up?  Your post felt more or less like a response to mine, and I don't even identify as a liberal.

Also, you're conflating being offended with thinking that a word/theme/what have you shouldn't be a part of the game.  The word "necker" doesn't make me feel offended.  I do think it's looks a lot like a thinly veiled "nigger," I do think we should not use it, and I do think we lose nothing meaningful from the game world in not using it.

As a side note, I'd love to hear someone explain the word "necker" to a crowd of normal, non-Armers.  Something tells me they wouldn't react well.

Furthermore, imagine this wasn't part of the game.  Imagine none of the slang was.  Most of the slang, if it appeared today, I'd be like "okay neat.". If someone invented "necker" I'd wtf.  I think that's a fair sniff test.

[Armaddict]

Liberalism has nothing to do with this.  Why would you even bring it up?  Your post felt more or less like a response to mine, and I don't even identify as a liberal.

Also, you're conflating being offended with thinking that a word/theme/what have you shouldn't be a part of the game.  The word "necker" doesn't make me feel offended.  I do think it's looks a lot like a thinly veiled "nigger," I do think we should not use it, and I do think we lose nothing meaningful from the game world in not using it.

As a side note, I'd love to hear someone explain the word "necker" to a crowd of normal, non-Armers.  Something tells me they wouldn't react well.

Furthermore, imagine this wasn't part of the game.  Imagine none of the slang was.  Most of the slang, if it appeared today, I'd be like "okay neat.". If someone invented "necker" I'd wtf.  I think that's a fair sniff test.

You actually posted while I was posting.  I didn't even read yours.

However, liberalism was brought up because this is a line along current RL precepts.  I -am- a liberal, and I'm saying that this sort of behavior often derails into over-control rather than protectionism.  That's why it was brought up.  It's a gentle warning against going so gung-ho that you over-regulate to the point that you're not allowing people to play the game in a relaxed, 'I'm just roleplaying' atmosphere. Edit: To clarify, it was brought up because it's a case of IC racism being viewed through an OOC scope that coincides with liberal OOC values, and thus a correlation of OOC values being enforced in the game.  IC racism should not be tied into the OOC scope at all.

As far as the rest of that...you just kind of...proved my point of about the IC/OOC barrier breaking here.  I can't explain much of anything on Arm to non-armers, that doesn't mean we change it.  I don't argue that people in real life should murder and betray people more.  I don't argue that sexism doesn't exist in real life.  I don't argue that racism in real life sorts it out.

What I do argue is that such things being said in the game does not equivocate to the institutions of them existing in game.  Elves calling each other necker (which I refrain from, not because of OOC connotations, but because I think it's a really silly term to have caught on?  Necker out of longneck?  Really?) doesn't break the setting, nor does it have to be shoved into this position where it needs to stop being used because people are OOC'ly attaching things to it.  That is the essence of the whole thing.  Some people have chosen to get incredibly oversensitive over words in game despite context within the game.  They're twisting the IC context into an OOC context, just to be offended about it, then fight the OOC fight over it.

You argue that it shouldn't be in game.  And what my response to that is...who says?  Why not?  It's an OOC reason that you're stating it shouldn't be there, not an IC one.  It's certainly not -damaging- the game.  There are plenty of instances where immersion is broken by other things, we don't ban those things.  It's over-controlling play, for literally minimal, if any benefit, at the cost of some people's ability to just comfortably type in their dialogues and not worry about everything being overanalyzed to death.

[Armaddict]

And it should be noted:

Long-ear
Slant-eye (briefly, it didn't really catch on the way the neck stuff did)
sharp-ear
longneck
neck
necker
skinny

These have all been slurs for elves over the years.  They are, for the most part, themed.  Never, until any of this discussion, did it even occur to me that one could be mistaken for a morph from a RL term.  I don't think it was.  I don't think anyone treated it like it was until someone pointed it out.  It's a misconstruction in the first place.

[sleepyhead]

I don't expect non-Armers to understand. I don't expect them to understand a lot of things about the game or game culture and I don't want them to be the ones who judge it and decide the direction of it. We don't allow rape in Arm anymore, but we still allow powerful people to coerce powerless people into sexual favors (with OOC consent), and we say that isn't rape according to the rules. I think a lot of people would be offended by that, especially people who have been sexually manipulated in such a way. I 100% empathize with anyone who's upset by that. But...I don't want their offense to dictate what we do as a community.

"Necker" isn't my hill to die on. I don't love the word so much I'm not willing to give it up. I do think that because of the reminder of the N-word, it seems more real than words like "sharp," which don't emotionally affect me whatsoever and will never sound offensive to my (round) ear as long as I play this game. "Necker" stings a bit, and I think that's a good thing. It's a rare fantasy insult that can evoke that feeling. Abomination is another that stings, probably partially because as it's been mentioned, it's a word that reminds us of how people have been hurt IRL. I think if we strip our Fantastic Racism of anything that might cause RL offense, we risk becoming OOCly callous to it, and I think that's a bad thing.

I wonder why that particular word is always on the chopping block but not words that don't just remind people of hurtful things, but are hurtful things players may have personally been called, and for the exact same reasons. If I'm of Native American descent and I play a tribal IG, I might be called a dirty, disgusting, superstitious, backwards, primitive savage. I might have my religious beliefs mocked, ridiculed, and gawked at in the worst kind of way. How is this not just as potentially upsetting, if not more so, than exposure to a word that is a vague reminder of or stand-in for another word that no one in their right mind would ever say IG, in reference to a kind of racism that does not exist IG whatsoever?

[FantasyWriter]

I don't think I've ever heard the word retard in game. The word, if I remember my music Italian properly comes from the word meaning slow or to slow.  If someone is very slow at learning thing, I think it is appropriate usage. Psychology on the level we understand it is not require to understand that some people learn slower than others.

Sexist insults should not be part of the game per docs. I've seen them very, very rarely in game and usually by very new players and they were politely corrected.

Racism is a real thing in Armageddon, so, at the risk of sounding insensitive, if you are offended/triggered by racism, you probably shouldn't be participating in an expressive art where racism is both rampant and expected.

The necker thing is a very, very silly thing to get offended by. It would be like me being offended by hearing words that in in -acker that -aren't- cracker.  The similarities between the two words are a coincidence of the English language.  A game with the tagline 'Murder, Corruption, Betrayal' should be warning enough for people to expect harsh language.

[FantasyWriter]

Nergal,

Has their ever been a complaint about the word necker or anything else along this line?

[Armaddict]

Nergal,

Has their ever been a complaint about the word necker or anything else along this line?

...right.  We might be getting tangled up in a mire that doesn't have to be there.  What sort of removals are we talking about here?  Are they common things?

[TheHandmaid]

For me it is not so much the swear-slang of the usual flavors such as bitch, dick, etc. I don't really mind necker. In truth, I didn't notice the closeness until pointed out, but even still, I know it is a different word. I don't usually read out the words I see on my screen nor to I read them out as I type them.

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc. This stuff is extremely distracting when seen during roleplay, it takes me right out of immersion. I do not really like the use of retard because it is a lazy attempt at writing as 99% of the time the player is using it to describe someone being utterly stupid. Be creative. The use of 'snerk' destroys any immersion I had the moment I see it.

In the past I have seen some horribly discriminating terms used by players ICly, things against most LGBTQ, but staff and other players have been really, really good about making that nigh extinct. I enjoy that I can play this game without too much sexism. There is always a little sexism, but it gets squeezed to death out of newbies and I would hope that teaches players a valuable lesson about the rest of the world as well.

[Nergal]

Nergal,

Has their ever been a complaint about the word necker or anything else along this line?

Yes

[sleepyhead]

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc.

People say those things IG?

[Feco]

So we're all on the same page, I don't think anyone wants to remove a theme.  Exploring prejudice, racism, xenophobia, etc. as themes is interesting, and dare I say important.

But I do think we should be careful to leave the content of our themes in fantasy.  This is a game, and I only want to get so real.  This is about doing cool shit and having fun.

I'm not for removing terms that offend people.  I'm not advocating any general rule.  Sterilizing the game world with such general rules would not be cool or fun.

I'm specifically saying that we not use "necker," because I think that word, in particular, touches too close to reality in a way that doesn't facilitate any funness or coolness.

I'd prefer if we did that as a community agreement, and not as a staff rule.  I think that would be more meaningful.

It's not in the docs.  If we stop using it, it probably vanishes.

[sleepyhead]

You are free not to use "necker" and so is anyone who doesn't like its use. In time, if the majority of people start using "sharp" exclusively, "necker" won't be thrown around IG anymore. I've perceived it already happening, and so has Harmless.

Let's just not suddenly say "if you use 'necker' you will be disciplined." I realize no one's advocated that, and I really hope it stays that way. I don't much like the idea of shaming each other out of it, either, but as long as it's not an edict coming from above I can tolerate it.

[Feco]

I don't think a laissez faire approach is the right one.

Is there anyone who would like to defend using the word "necker?"

A lot of people have spoke up against general rules about censorship.  That's fine.  But is anyone willing to defend "necker" specifically, because they want to keep using it?  Not because they don't like censorship?

If not, why are we even talking about this?  Let's just agree as a community not to use it.

[Armaddict]

What bothers me is more the use of the popular slang of today, such things as trill, sus, on fleet, goat, I can't even, how bow dah, true dat, etc. This stuff is extremely distracting when seen during roleplay, it takes me right out of immersion. I do not really like the use of retard because it is a lazy attempt at writing as 99% of the time the player is using it to describe someone being utterly stupid. Be creative. The use of 'snerk' destroys any immersion I had the moment I see it.

This is what I meant when I was alluding to other areas where people were completely fine with it, because it was viewed as comedic.  This is more out-of-setting than racist or sexist terms for me.  It's great that you want to be funny, but I once saw a 'tickle me elmo' reference in game that straight irritated the hell out of me.  But everyone thought it was so funny and awesome.

Sexist terms like bitch, I acknowledge that those words likely never would have evolved into existence in Armageddon.  But I think they are natural patterns of speech that do not carry the sexism that the word sprouts out of into the game.  (This may be a bad example, but I still -occasionally- say 'That's gay.' in RL.  I don't mean any injustice to gay people, I have no qualms with gay people, it's just a speech pattern; I've never had one of the numerous gay people around me get offended by it, but I imagine a gay stranger would.)  Things like this I think are an overanalysis in the eye of some readers.

As noted above, I purposely avoid the use of necker whenever possible.  Not because of the OOC similarity, but because I think that such is a very falsely contrived correlation, and because I think their ears and build and habits are far more suitable targets for racism.  If I saw someone use a statement like 'Only my neck friends can call me necker', then yes, I'd likely ask for there to be a line of dialogue about not associating the term with a real life one.  But that correlation is completely non-existent to me, having seen it spring up directly from longneck and neck.

Let's just not suddenly say "if you use 'necker' you will be disciplined." I realize no one's advocated that, and I really hope it stays that way. I don't much like the idea of shaming each other out of it, either, but as long as it's not an edict coming from above I can tolerate it.

My problem is I try to explain my position too much.  But this is pretty much me as well in a nutshell, minus explaining why I have that position.

[Feco]

As noted above, I purposely avoid the use of necker whenever possible.  Not because of the OOC similarity because I think that such is a very falsely contrived correlation, but because I think their ears and build and habits are far more suitable targets for racism.  If I saw someone use a statement like 'Only my neck friends can call me necker', then yes, I'd likely ask for there to be a line of dialogue about not associating the term with a real life one.  But that correlation is completely non-existent to me, having seen it spring up directly from longneck and neck.

I don't have logs, but I've at least seen "my necka" in game.

[Armaddict]

Is there anyone who would like to defend using the word "necker?"

A lot of people have spoke up against general rules about censorship.  That's fine.  But is anyone willing to defend "necker" specifically, because they want to keep using it?  Not because they don't like censorship?

I think those statements together are a trap.  We aren't necessarily defending necker, which makes you say it should be removed, but we are saying that removing things is bad, so I, of course, have to continue to say that it's not about the word but the action of over-controlling the roleplay of the game for the sake of perceptions of some players over others.

Some people, that's been part of their elven roleplay every time they've played an elf, because every elf they met was doing it, and it's integrated.  I have no qualms with that, nor do I think they should assume they've been doing it wrong or poorly; most of those who play with my elves realize quickly that I don't use it, and it tones down, but that doesn't mean my way is the only way to do it.

I don't have logs, but I've at least seen "my necka" in game.

I've seen people abuse coded commands in game and misuse them based on misunderstanding.  We do not remove those commands, we remind them what its for, where it came from, etc.  I've seen people insist Milord and M'lord are different, one acceptable and the other not, and we did not remove one or the other from the game to clear it up.  If necker is more immersion breaking than outright OOC tomfoolery with half-giants to be funny, or song lyrics in game being reminiscent or modified from real life songs, again...I politely assert you, OOC'ly, are sensitive to it and you're looking to change the game for the benefit of a personal perception.

[sleepyhead]

Yes, Feco, I've directly defended the word "necker" itself several times here. It's not that "necker" is such a draw to me that I weep at the prospect of losing it, but I think it's far better and more effective than "sharp" and it doesn't bode well for the game if we start banning words, not for being directly sexist, Earth-racist, or homophobic, but for being reminiscent of RL offensive terms. I've said multiple times that I think the sting of the word (because of its OOC reminder) is a strength, not a reason to ban it.

But I've also made it clear (I hope) that it isn't really about "necker" to me, when it comes down to it. And I don't think you can reasonably say "this is just about the word 'necker' and nothing else," because like it or not, it does set a precedent if you ban an IG slang term that's been around for years. It does send the message "we don't like words that may be offensive to people IRL."

I don't like when people say things like "my necka." That kind of OOC winkwinknudgenudge isn't really what we should be talking about here. It's whether the term itself is unacceptable or not.