Getting More People to Play (City) Elves

[Cind]

You know how gickers are used by the Arm?

Make elves be used by the Arm as a tradition, to steal and murder and such. Hey, if they're caught, only the elf goes down, right?

It wouldn't fix everything but gickers partially survive because they are useful. Make elves useful too, but make them useful to pcs, and not just the world in general.

[Dar]

Elves are plenty useful to PCs. There were plenty of examples of elves that were known to serve Templars and had a good amount of influence due to it.  Elves are not unemployable.  It's just a lot harder then it is for a human. This is not an easy race. But it's not an impossible race.

[Armaddict]

Make elves be used by the Arm as a tradition, to steal and murder and such. Hey, if they're caught, only the elf goes down, right?

It wouldn't fix everything but gickers partially survive because they are useful. Make elves useful too, but make them useful to pcs, and not just the world in general.

Elves are highly employable by other PC's, as Dar said.  Clans don't want them.  People within clans should.  Not as a clanmate, but as someone useful.

That's not just the Arm.  That's pretty much everyone.  That's right now, not a change that needs to be made, just something that more people need to realize.

[Delirium]

Getting people to realize they can use criminals rather than hunt them to the ends of the earth??

that's CRAZY TALK

[Riev]

Elves are plenty useful to PCs. There were plenty of examples of elves that were known to serve Templars and had a good amount of influence due to it.  Elves are not unemployable.  It's just a lot harder then it is for a human. This is not an easy race. But it's not an impossible race.

Nobody has said they are impossible. In fact, the discussion is how to encourage people to play MORE (city) elves.

Elves are employable, but often not employed. A master electrician is employable, but not if he lives on a remote island without power. City elves have plenty of marketable skills but they aren't really able to be social, because the virtual world struggles to keep up with their representation.

Someone playing an elf knows they are lowdown dirty scum, and people are likely to treat them that way. If they don't, they shouldn't be playing an elf because they didn't read. However, to me, its not how elves are treated in game, its how the GAME treats them. No clans or groups that will hire you. No family or tribe without a special application and a role call allowed by staff. It makes it sound like it should be a sponsored-role Family Call for any city-elf that is considered! And when you throw on top of that, the fact that people say "Just play in this one sphere populated mostly by people with maximum hide (if at all) and maybe they'll talk to you" sounds an awful lot like "Don't play near me, go solo play and hope someone joins you".

Its tough to be an elf, and we should figure out how to at least make them feel more accessible to players. It feels like the race relies on veterans to play, and/or OOC communication along the lines of "Lets all play elves".

[Armaddict]

Someone playing an elf knows they are lowdown dirty scum, and people are likely to treat them that way. If they don't, they shouldn't be playing an elf because they didn't read.

I'd strongly suggest against this viewpoint, because it turns into stereotypical villain roleplay that...well...-necessitates- some of the reactions that are currently discussed (though not the original point of the thread).  If you slink around looking like a cutthroat, you'll be treated like one.

Instead, I'd suggest taking a look at the ideals of elven roleplay and making them actual ideals rather than, as you said, thinking of yourself as a scumbag.  Make your elf into a hero unto himself, where those treating you like shit are the scum of the earth, not you.  It results in a lot clearer racial boundaries, but it also makes you strive against the oppression in very different (and more elf-like, in my opinion) ways.

And when I say 'you', I'm speaking to the reader who may want to play an elf, not you Riev.  You're quoted just because this is one of those things I notice with some people who try out elves, is that they go full-fledged into the human stereotype of elves rather than just playing the elf.

[Riev]

WTF ARMADDICT U WANNA FITE

Nah, I get it man. And, yeah I suppose you're right. There's got to be difference between "What an elf is" and "what a human thinks an elf is".

There is such a disparity between "help elf" and "help city elf roleplay" that its almost staggering. There's so much documentation there that could stand to be condensed in SOME way.

It also mentions in the RP file that elven tribes basically automatically trust each other, and I wonder if this is why they don't work when PCs are involved?

Also for note:

To an elf, theft is: "Taking anything that would not be given if the possessor knew all of the facts."

[Miradus]

There's trust and then there's trust.

There's "I trust you to help me break into this apartment and we'll split the loot."

Which is completely different from, "I'm going to show you where I stash all my loot and sleep at night."

Look at crime movies where you've got a whole series of different people working together, few trust each other, and there's a good deal of either worry about doublecrossing or actual doublecrossing going on.

[Riev]

The intimation in the Help Files suggests that elves IN A TRIBE, implicitly trust each other. Its ANYONE outside the Tribe that is met with Trust Tests and other such things.

I wonder if there's been issues with being "part of a Tribe where trust is implicit" and then people were betraying it, because Arm? Or because a group of implicit, full trusted individuals is not really in place in Zalanthas?

[Miradus]

The intimation in the Help Files suggests that elves IN A TRIBE, implicitly trust each other. Its ANYONE outside the Tribe that is met with Trust Tests and other such things.

I wonder if there's been issues with being "part of a Tribe where trust is implicit" and then people were betraying it, because Arm? Or because a group of implicit, full trusted individuals is not really in place in Zalanthas?

Most epic scene I ever saw was where a trusting, spiritually devoted individual was betrayed and disillusioned by the powers that they worshipped. In the last few moments of that character, there was a genuine confusion, betrayed hurt, and horror displayed in a few emotes.

More of that please.

[Cind]

I have an idea. Two elf clans. Let's call them Clan 1 and Clan 2.

Clan 1 has a seedy quit room, a maxxed-out burglar npc in that room, a maxxed-out assassin and a maxxed-out pickpocket. Each of these can be animated at will and sent to get vengeance when some silver-spoon human goes too far, and they will be copied and replaced on the next reboot, as is the wont of npcs. Perhaps staff would even send out two or three at once. Typical crime-dependent elven clan. The picture of a stereotype and proud of it. A few mats, and a table to talk about shady stuff at.

Clan 2 has a basic, underfurnished quit room, a maxxed-out pickpocket npc, a maxxed-out burglar npc and a food dispenser that will hand out a chalton steak to clan members twice a month, like how clannies get paid twice a month. Has a civil relationship with Clan 1 but isn't above screwing them over for a quick buck. Different subculture than Clan 1 and not as poor. Less criminally-inclined. May be seen as less powerful in general solely due to the lack of an always-available max assassin, but they can still get into your apartment and smear shit over all your stuff. Could probably emphasize this idea by making them a smaller clan numerically.

Something like that, especially with one clan having a heavier emphasis on crime than the other. A part of Clan 1's survival strategy is to sell spice to the Arm or Kadius or something at a good price. As a rule, these elves would not touch said clan. Clan 2 might be more into mercantile things or mercenary things, and may have a habit of sending its younger members to the Byn for a year. They would not avoid grubbing at any clan in particular. Stuff like that. Clans that people can choose at chargen, which -will- be backed up by staff if a semi-newbie decides to get fiery and arrowy with a tribemate repeatedly for no reason.

(I can't stay on webpages for some reason so I didn't read every single new thing. This is mostly a post about giving elves some form of real backup people will fear.)

[Rokal]

Getting people to realize they can use criminals rather than hunt them to the ends of the earth??

that's CRAZY TALK

+1 right here.

[Miradus]

Here's the rub though ...

You've got to kill some people SOMETIME or we're all just playing digital dolls here. A body on the pile puts skin in the game. Everyone knows it's for keeps.

Kill this one. Maim the next three. Kill another one after a long-drawn out plot.

There are times when a story arc has just run its course and someone needs to die to close that loop. Death is a thing here. Make it count when it happens, and wring that drama out of the scene. We can practice catch-and-release quite a bit, but SOMETIMES that trophy catch needs to be mounted on the wall.

Part of it, and it's something I haven't mastered, is knowing who is who and how they are connected. If someone seems like they've got a lot of irons in the fire and they're on their way up, I don't really want to kill them. I want to see where they go. But if it's someone I know is on their downhill run, then I want to be there to smoothly help them with their transition to the next character. With a glorious death.

Then there's what I'd consider sort of the elephant in the room ...

Some people think they're untouchable. They're not playing the same game ... they're in a text based chat room where they can say and do whatever they want. Which would be fine, mostly, except there are stories going on here. THOSE are the people I find particularly need to have consequences delivered down upon them. They make the best examples.

[Cind]

Oh, yes, beat and kill elves all you want. I'm just saying that I'd like to see a staffer who reads Clan 1's bios and character reports once a week and decides about once every four months to animate the npc assassin and go wreck up some shit. Clan 2, if you noticed, wouldn't have an assassin, but they'd have someone who could nick a noble's favorite book and junk it.

[Cind]

Oh, nevermind, you were responding to Rokal.

Seriously, you'd have maybe a single staffer heading each of the two elf clans, or one staffer who would read the bios and animate for both clans. Maybe their default relationship wouldn't be set in stone--- hate one year, kanking each other the next. Fighting over who gets to keep a clan 1 and clan 2 baby. Maybe clan 2 treats its gemmed better than clan 1.

They wouldn't animate the lingering badasses often, and things such as throwing a mug at a tribemate's head might and probably will get overlooked. But the threat would always be there, and that's what would change things, and help not to make it feel like you're the only elf in the city, because now you aren't.

[Miradus]

I absolutely dislike the concept of a staff animated killer assassin lurking around. First of all, you KNOW it's going to be overpowered. Someone on the receiving end of a staff-animated backstab that leaves them at Mantis-head is going to be pissed off. I know I would be. Second, you also know they're going to go after Grebber Gus who used the brawl code on an elf last week and isn't remotely connected to anyone or any plot rather than some sponsored role who has systematically abused and murdered elves for the past month.

But I do like the idea of staff getting involved a little bit. For instance, there are a few elves about most of the time. If you animated an elder who comes up to that young elf PLAYER assassin and says, "We have noticed your progress and we think you could be useful. Let me teach you a little more about backstab, oh, and here's a sack with some terradin." Or even just an elven child who whispers in the ear of a player elf, "That mean roundear with the bad haircut just went into apartment #3 with that big-boobed aide."

You can't have a war with a staff animated NPC because it's going to be parked in some imm-room waiting for the storyteller to show up. But giving a little help to players who are clearly the underdog isn't a bad idea.

[Riev]

Honestly, at times, I'd be fine if a staff who is watching a scene that involves a city elf (maybe a staff who focuses a bit more on them in the Indy Group?) just animates the room a bit to show that there's more than that one elf getting picked on.

It doesn't happen often, and staff aren't ALWAYS watching, but it'd be nice if 2-3 drunk Bynners are picking on an elf who hasn't done anything (yet), and the room animates that "The group of elves at the corner table have stopped talking, and four of them are now staring at the altercation with interest". Something to remind you that you're picking on "the other half" not "the only other guy"

[Armaddict]

I absolutely dislike the concept of a staff animated killer assassin lurking around. First of all, you KNOW it's going to be overpowered.

Historically speaking, this is part of the game that is used for people who ignore the game world, i.e. People who went to go on 'elf hunts' consistently, sooner or later, found themselves staring at an elf npc who was directly sent by the rest of the elven community.  Or a guild mul, when someone just pretends that only the Guild PC's matter.  Or a soldier who normally doesn't move, but consistent kills near it, and it so it 'happens' across your crime one of those times that you repeat it.

I haven't seen this done for eastside elves in a long time, but in other areas of the game it's already present.  If Nolaz the elf were to show up like days of yore to pick at his teeth and stinkeye an elf hunter and say, 'You ain't here for business, which makes you my business now', I'd have no complaints, because the number of people who treat the 'rinth as happy hunting grounds is frankly ridiculous.

[Riev]

Generally, those NPCs that get animated are to show the virtual power of the clans (not always). Like when people disrespect the Guild because they "only have like 1 PC around" or "I'm going to shit on Salarr because their PC merchant doesn't play when I do so she can't retaliate".

I just think simple echoes would be nice reminders to the 'dregs' that mistake elves for breeds, thinking "there aren't many around and they won't do anything anyway"

[Dar]

It is natural to want to improve ones' standing during one's play. But do you 'reaaaaaally' want to strengthen the celves? Look at the breeds. They are the ones who should be thematically picked upon and already a lot of people choose not to do it. Mainly due to the sheer usefulness breeds tend to have.

Do you really want to increase the 'danger' of picking on an elf and by that discourage people from ... picking on elves?  There are too many people out there who already play nicey nice with 'everything'. On account of that being more profitable, safer, and more useful way of behaving oneself. Do you really want to add one more benefit to being non-confrontational?

Yes. Sometimes, people tend to ignore the virual world by picking on elves. But you know what? Just play elves better and bring that virtual world to life more and others will follow suit. I personally think that being picked on, is one of the celves character traits. And desire to avoid that is akin to a dwarven desire to not have a focus.

Just own it. Rock it. Rule it. Make it awesome. Celves are a difficult role. Celves are Armageddon in Hardmode. So just pwn it, or stick to easy mode game.

[number13]

Make a vendor who sells poisons, cures, picks, super cheap spice, maybe some spellcasting junk and fancy decks of cards -- but only to c-elves.  No hoops to jump through for the player. You just have to be an elf.

[Dar]

Heh. Ironically, one such vendor used to exist, but they made JP only. Weirdness.

[Armaddict]

Make a vendor who sells poisons, cures, picks, super cheap spice, maybe some spellcasting junk and fancy decks of cards -- but only to c-elves.  No hoops to jump through for the player. You just have to be an elf.

Heh. Ironically, one such vendor used to exist, but they made JP only. Weirdness.

Part of one of my other posts.  There are actually two vendors that used to have city elf or city-elf clan boons.  One was closed off entirely to everyone via over-time removal of clans, the other was made into just a typical vendor rather than one that gave a specific group a boon.  Also noted, elves used to be the most reliable influx of most contraband (excepting spice) due to elven connections and the elven proclivity for business and deals (material goods are the best way to make coin without affording any loyalty or service to the buyer).

I have no idea if this is out of pure negligence, laziness, or some sort of actual plan, but if it's part of plan, it's one that very slowly, over time, cut out elven resources, which I will totally pound my fist on my desk over.  Very seriously.  Very sternly.  Yus.  Scary face.

[nauta]

Getting taints and contraband etc. is one of the more enjoyable things to do with an elf.  I think an NPC vendor would ruin that part.  That said, perhaps a little /easier/ (OOCly) access to the tablelands / Red Storm might encourage more elfs-are-black-market opportunities with PCs.  Imagine an elf-only tunnel to Red Storm or the Tablelands?  Trading with your long lost cousins the SRs for taints and booze... Being an asset to the spice trade...

[Armaddict]

I think an NPC vendor would ruin that part.

That isn't to say most poisons came from the vendor.  Simple poisons came from there.  An armsheath, back when they were 'neato' items.  A couple other odds and ends.

However, having a shop that traded in those sorts of goods (i.e. Selling -and- buying) and was elf only reinforced the elven market.  I don't recall if the herbalist bought such things at that time.