Getting More People to Play (City) Elves

[Synthesis]

Jaxa Pah reopening has been the clarion call for c-elves for so long, and its never worked.

What do you mean by "it's never worked?"

[Riev]

Jaxa Pah reopening has been the clarion call for c-elves for so long, and its never worked.

What do you mean by "it's never worked?"

"Its never worked" meaning we've been calling for it for years, and its never happened.

[Armaddict]

Has staff ever given a reason as to why there are no city-elf tribes?

From my conversations, what I've gleaned (and it may only be a single staffer's opinion, or not the prime reason) is that elven clans have that deep loyalty even in cases where it's not necessarily earned, which I can understand.  Unless it was changed after my time there, the Jaxa Pah was supposed to be a conglomeration of city elf tribes with inherent levels of equal trust and distrust according to situation...but instead, people played it as a super unified group that never had to question each other, which made it a power block that wasn't intended.

That is subject to my own interpretation and not explicitly stated.  I can see the conundrum, but I also see it as one easily worked around.  My personal opinion is that elves are a project; they require maintenance and oversight from someone who's actually interested in elves, and I'm not sure any of the current staff are actually interested in it.

What do you mean by "it's never worked?"

I think he means we've been asking for it for a long time, and it's never been a request that's been fulfilled.


I'm at the point where I, someone who has always hated the idea of staffing the game because of how it would change my enjoyment, am about to put in an application that just says 'gimme all da elf stuffs and I'll build stuffs'.

[Dar]

As someone who played in Jaxa Pah. I'd say that whole 'trust bloc' never really happened.

Jaxa Pah was often plagued by internal strife. Sometimes erroneously and against theme. I dont know why they dont have JP open, but I played a few characters in it and it "always" "always" "always" felt odd to play there.

You cant recruit people like you can with the Guild. People did it anyway, but it felt ... against theme. The Jaxa Pah backstory and setting needs to be fine tuned to allow for smoother recruitment.

Out of 3 characters that I played in Jaxa Pah. 2 were recruited in. One killed a "fellow" tribe member and quit the tribe in order to prevent a massive split of tribe itself between pro-gickers and anti-gickers.  Second had a backstory of being from a tribe of elves that survived by sending young tribesmates to infiltrate other tribes and leech resources for their real tribe.  Third one was special apped straight into their highest tier tribe itself and he was indeed loyal, but got eaten by spiders.

[Patuk]

The whole 'elves are loyal to each other' thing stings so much, too. It's the damn point.

What did you expect? For players not to pick up on tribal loyalty being very strong? Half-giants have their musculature going for them, so we give them high STR scores. Humans have a monopoly on all of society's important jobs, so they can join high status clans and attain good ranks. Elves are fiercely loyal to each other, so we.. Don't let them play in tribes because that's kinda strong.

[Cind]

What if you had a 'lesser' southside tribe, a relatively small one that only had a quit room and a food dispenser to its name (who only gave out crappy food, get your own water.)

People wouldn't feel much of a need to squash it, and it could make itself useful by smuggling spice to importants or something. Being southside would make dealing with them more palatable to people and they'd be able to do more.

Someone you could join at chargen, or just do your whole loner or vnpc tribe thing again.

[whitt]

People wouldn't feel much of a need to squash it...

My real sense is that players always want to squash something.  Elves are universally accepted as the thing it's ok to squash, even if, in reality that one thing should be breeds.  But, unlike elves, breeds can be widely useful to the rest of the playerbase, so they're mocked, and hired, and put to good use. 

It's open season on elves.  So... it doesn't matter how many the elf tribe is, unless there are several at the same time, the elves will get targeted.

[650Booger]

I think Celves should be granted a racial skill of journeyman sneak and hide regardless of guild.  can't smash what you can't see!

[Synthesis]

Jman sneak and hide is pointless.

I played one of the stealth extended subguilds (sneak and hide capped at advanced) with a c-elf and the failure rate was basically only good enough to fool NPCs.

[Armaddict]

Jman sneak and hide is pointless.

I played one of the stealth extended subguilds (sneak and hide capped at advanced) with a c-elf and the failure rate was basically only good enough to fool NPCs.

Opposite of my experience, where I start having a hard time getting the skill to go up at the end of jman because elven agility makes the sneak and hide succeed so reliably.

[Synthesis]

Jman sneak and hide is pointless.

I played one of the stealth extended subguilds (sneak and hide capped at advanced) with a c-elf and the failure rate was basically only good enough to fool NPCs.

Opposite of my experience, where I start having a hard time getting the skill to go up at the end of jman because elven agility makes the sneak and hide succeed so reliably.

With vgood c-elf agility stealth was trash at advanced.  I think maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes trash.  I'd guess that about 20-25% of the time, hide still abjectly failed.  Most of the time it didn't work against any primary guild with 'scan.'  Running tests against NPCs, I could sneak+hide maybe 2 or 3 rooms about 75% of the time, but farther than that the success rate dropped off dramatically.

None of this was good enough to be really useful.  Yeah, you could probably sneak into a room, steal something, then sneak out, but you wouldn't be able to stand around hidden.  And if you got caught southside, trying to get past NPC guards was so extremely risky that most of the time it wasn't worth it.

Like I said in a previous thread a long time ago, the only really useful thing about it was that I could trick guild-sniffers into thinking I was a noob burglar because my stealth skills were obviously failing so much, then give them an oh shit moment when I wrecked them in melee.

[Synthesis]

As someone who played in Jaxa Pah. I'd say that whole 'trust bloc' never really happened.

Jaxa Pah was often plagued by internal strife. Sometimes erroneously and against theme. I dont know why they dont have JP open, but I played a few characters in it and it "always" "always" "always" felt odd to play there.

You cant recruit people like you can with the Guild. People did it anyway, but it felt ... against theme. The Jaxa Pah backstory and setting needs to be fine tuned to allow for smoother recruitment.

Out of 3 characters that I played in Jaxa Pah. 2 were recruited in. One killed a "fellow" tribe member and quit the tribe in order to prevent a massive split of tribe itself between pro-gickers and anti-gickers.  Second had a backstory of being from a tribe of elves that survived by sending young tribesmates to infiltrate other tribes and leech resources for their real tribe.  Third one was special apped straight into their highest tier tribe itself and he was indeed loyal, but got eaten by spiders.

I think I've played three PCs in the Jaxa Pah or one of its constituent clans.

Two were wildly successful.  The third died prematurely doing something silly.

The only serious within-clan drama occurred when Staff made a particular decision that led to us having to gank a couple of PCs.

At any rate, I think the reason that they don't open it up is because the JP don't have any reason for being, so it eventually devolves into power-struggle griefing.  A couple of c-elf assassins with decent stats at peak time can be so completely dominant in the 'rinth that it essentially takes Staff intervention to restore balance.

[Armaddict]

With vgood c-elf agility stealth was trash at advanced.  I think maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes trash.  I'd guess that about 20-25% of the time, hide still abjectly failed.  Most of the time it didn't work against any primary guild with 'scan.'  Running tests against NPCs, I could sneak+hide maybe 2 or 3 rooms about 75% of the time, but farther than that the success rate dropped off dramatically.

Again, this is opposite of my experience.  Very opposite.  Elven agility has stymied my progress past advanced constantly.  So I think you're projecting numbers that aren't there.

At any rate, I think the reason that they don't open it up is because the JP don't have any reason for being, so it eventually devolves into power-struggle griefing.  A couple of c-elf assassins with decent stats at peak time can be so completely dominant in the 'rinth that it essentially takes Staff intervention to restore balance.

This power-struggle griefing is what I call the struggle for relevance, and it occurs to almost every clan in the game (albeit the 'rinth is where it turns into violence more readily).  All 'rinth groups end up suffering through it, the difference being that only one of them is static and thus survives every conflict, and that is actually what's led to a serious, perpetual imbalance there over a long period of time that is not reflective of the 'rinthi world.

I don't demand the Jaxa Pah back, though I disagree that they have no reason to be there.  By the standard you're setting, only one group should ever be doing one thing (which is anti-conflict), or they should all be equally not there because their role is arbitrarily made.  I do, however, think city elf presence is something that needs to be acknowledged as a very large part of the in-city world.  Currently, as whitt noted, it is purely a pariah race to all, rather than just an oppressed race by the state, and keeps all the anti-clan rules and conventions from a time when city-elf clans were active. 

[Patuk]

People wouldn't feel much of a need to squash it

lol

Any organisation that lets pickpockets do their thing is public enemy no. 1

[Molten Heart]

.

[Synthesis]

With vgood c-elf agility stealth was trash at advanced.  I think maybe we just have different ideas about what constitutes trash.  I'd guess that about 20-25% of the time, hide still abjectly failed.  Most of the time it didn't work against any primary guild with 'scan.'  Running tests against NPCs, I could sneak+hide maybe 2 or 3 rooms about 75% of the time, but farther than that the success rate dropped off dramatically.

Again, this is opposite of my experience.  Very opposite.  Elven agility has stymied my progress past advanced constantly.  So I think you're projecting numbers that aren't there.

At any rate, I think the reason that they don't open it up is because the JP don't have any reason for being, so it eventually devolves into power-struggle griefing.  A couple of c-elf assassins with decent stats at peak time can be so completely dominant in the 'rinth that it essentially takes Staff intervention to restore balance.

This power-struggle griefing is what I call the struggle for relevance, and it occurs to almost every clan in the game (albeit the 'rinth is where it turns into violence more readily).  All 'rinth groups end up suffering through it, the difference being that only one of them is static and thus survives every conflict, and that is actually what's led to a serious, perpetual imbalance there over a long period of time that is not reflective of the 'rinthi world.

I don't demand the Jaxa Pah back, though I disagree that they have no reason to be there.  By the standard you're setting, only one group should ever be doing one thing (which is anti-conflict), or they should all be equally not there because their role is arbitrarily made.  I do, however, think city elf presence is something that needs to be acknowledged as a very large part of the in-city world.  Currently, as whitt noted, it is purely a pariah race to all, rather than just an oppressed race by the state, and keeps all the anti-clan rules and conventions from a time when city-elf clans were active.

*shrug*

We can go back-and-forth about what we experienced in-game all day without resolving anything.  So...whatever.  For what it's worth, I'm so thoroughly convinced that I'd never roll a stealth extended subguild without having a stealth primary to piggyback on.  At any rate, I highly doubt you -honestly- had trouble getting past advanced, because I've played a whooooole lot of city-elf assassins over the years, and they all branched from sneak and hide within 5 or 6 days.  So I mean...unless something has changed dramatically in the last several years since I've played one, I'm not sure what to tell you.

As to the rest:  the Jaxa Pah is just there because it's there.  I'm not really condemning that.  Personally, I'd be fine with opening it merely as a flavor role--to allow players to play a role that fills  in a part of the game's universe, regardless of whether it's arbirtrary or not (everything in a fantasy world is purely arbitrary, if you want to get reductionist about it), other things being equal.  Unfortunately, ceteris paribus doesn't apply, because it only takes a few active JP to completely change 'rinth dynamics.

My personal guess about Staff discussions is that city-elves statistically are so good at miscellaneous griefing that giving them a safe space in close proximity to the places where the griefing occurs contributes vastly more to negative than positive experiences in terms of playerbase satisfaction.  When you combine excellence at miscellaneous griefing with having nothing organic to do...griefing becomes the default.  People start getting pickpocketed or burglarized for no other reason than ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  I'm not being hypocritical here:  I freely admit that I engaged in the same behavior, because it takes a huge amount of self-control not to engage in it as a young adult.  Rash had AI agility as a pickpocket, and I kept on mercilessly stealing people's shit even with 20k sitting in the bank, just because I could.  And sure, there are a lot of things in the game that get done for no better reason than that, but there are very few such things that actively enrage most players.  Nobody cares if you generate 20,000 'sid from scrab leg sales.  If you generate 20,000 from stealing people's back-up knives and mount tickets, it will kick off IC and OOC crusades.  And sure, human pickpockets and burglars can be pretty good, but there isn't a single human clan in the game where, if you get caught picking pockets or locks, they'll give you a big ol' clap on the back and a "well done," so you have to meticulously plan and target heists, or eventually your nuts will get crushed.  With the JP, that counterbalance doesn't exist until your shenanigans get so outrageous that someone on Staff gives you a permanent crimflag (I didn't get one until I stole Samos's keyring and magick sword).  So: on the one hand, I can make an argument that I, myself, probably would no longer abuse the privilege, because I'm 36 years old, with 18 years into the game, so maturity and experience (usually) give me a good idea of where to draw the line; on the other hand, I also know what that sort of blank check leads to when you -don't- have maturity and experience.

I agree with you that the typical state of affairs in the 'rinth is not accurately represented without the JP being open.  However, until there is some sort of effective balance--which would, I believe, be facilitated by giving them a reason for being beyond "we're here, we have long ears, get used to it"--the game probably is better off without them being open.  The 'rinth certainly is not any fun when the East and West have "gone to the mattresses" and any noob PC who rolls into the 'rinth without access to a clan safehouse gets mercilessly ganked for no other reason other than they -might- be recruited for the other side.

That being said, a "reason for being" probably isn't sufficient to balance griefing vs. satisfaction in a stable equilibrium.  There also needs to be some set of rules or documentation regarding appropriate JP behavior, and there needs to be a set of known and predictable consequences for that behavior, so punishment can't simply be dismissed as "Staff favoritism."  Until that happens, I doubt anyone on the Staff team wants to take on the burden of dealing with all the miscellaneous bitching that a crew of elves with a safehouse inside the city is inevitably going to gin up.

[Cind]

I've thought a few times that the stealing-is-necessary part seemed like one of the parts that could use the most overhaul (and I've played maybe three pickpockets, one of which died on day one and the third of which didn't pick pockets.) If you had stealing still be a good thing for an elf to engage in, but -not necessary-, I wonder what would happen to the elf/everyone else dynamic and the numbers of city elves. For one thing, you wouldn't be called batshit crazy for wanting to allow for exceptional elves in your group, or wanting elves because you can't find anyone else willing to do your work for you.

Making the number one OOC griefer fuel the one thing elves must do at some point and repeatedly seems to me to defeat the purpose of having a race people will play.

I love the stealing psychology. They think different about being stolen from and about stealing, the possession of items and whose hands they are in. Don't remove that.

[Riev]

I've always preferred the rationale that the "stealing" mentality is more about "getting one over on all the other races that look down on us". Purposefully miscounting so you give someone 98 instead of 100 coins (its amazing how fast PCs can count when its UNDER 100, but if you give them 102 they pocket it no problem...), or making a trade deal that is more in your favor than theirs. Sure, elves get steal and there's nothing like the rush of stealing someone's mount ticket when they were throwing shade at the entire elven race, but there should always be other ways.

Though, Synth is right. Anyone with steal is going to become a griefer, whether they want to or not. PCs go through insane steps to avoid being stolen from despite pickpockets being in the rare minority. And if you feel that an elf HAS to steal, you become worse than a raider, because every clan in the game will come after you. And thats just if people are being stolen from, nevermind the people that will come after you because "its not like there are other elves around to worry about". Not all elves stick together, but they stick together better than humans do, and if one is being threatened BECAUSE he's an elf, I'm sure another couple elves would have no trouble throwing elbows and knives at the guy next time he's at the stables. But it doesn't happen, so elves have absolutely no backup, and as a 0-karma race I feel that they should have some sort of virtual manner of escape, at least.

[Patuk]

Once again:

[Miradus]

Riev clearly knows what he's talking about, but I'd like to add some points from my own experience playing multiple thieves.

1. Twinking is your friend. If you can't hide, don't screw around in public. Work on your skills in private until you're good enough to not fail most the time before you start touching other players, IF you want to remain unknown as a thief. Remember Fagin and his school for pickpockets in "Oliver Twist"? Yeah, that.

2. It's not always necessary to be unknown as a thief. Being known as a BAD thief sucks, but being known as a very good thief is a different matter altogether. All those packs and pouches that suddenly slam shut when you walk into the Gaj is a sign of respect. Everyone needs a thief and you will have job offers out the wazoo.

3. Pick your targets wisely. However tempting that aide's stuff might be, or that fancy knife on the Arm sergeant's belt, you're much better off nicking from that independent guy with no friends. When he goes to complain to the Arm that someone nicked his scrab claw skinning knife, they SHOULD just laugh at him.

4. Avoid certain character types. Seriously. There are some characters, mostly mudsex related types, who will cause an inordinate amount of drama if you mess with them in any way. Half of the playerbase will suddenly white knight and jump on their gleaming white stallions to make your life a living hell. If you have the power to kill a couple of those white knights, then it can be fun. If you don't, then avoid the mudsexer as a victim. (Caveat: Some of those white knights who will ride out against you are sponsored roles and high power leadership types. You will lose if you go against them.)

5. Wear a facewrap and call out bad roleplay. If you fail out on the street at night with your pickpocket or sap attempt, your victim is going to run to the nearest Arm militia and give them your whole description. You can't exactly IC tell the Arm guard, "they couldn't have known it was me because I was wearing a facewrap" but you can wish up and let staff know that IC they would have no way of knowing it's you. The Arm may still hassle you if a tall person in a facewrap is sapping people and you're the only elf around, but that's an IC event that can be handled IC. Giving your complete description despite your facewrap is bullshit roleplay and should be called out. I never did that and I wish I had. It would have saved me a lot of problems.

6. Most of the flak you will face can be avoided if you've laid low until your sneak/hide is pretty decent. The people of the 'rinth are furtive and sneaky for a reason. Personally I think if you chose that as a starting location you should get a decent skill bump automatically in the same way you get a bonus to chopping in the north or a bonus to slashing in the south. If they can't see you doing your dirty deed, they can't snitch or squash you.

7. It can be helpful to be helpful to the people who COULD squash you. Depending upon who they are and how powerful they are when you roll out of chargen (all power waxes and wanes) then you need to find out who the players are and how competent they are at squishing people. Consider it your recon while you're getting up your sneak and hide skills.

The action-social (thieves, assassins, and other shady city types) are a completely different role than your action-adventurer types (warriors and rangers) or your social-crafter or your social-mudsexer. They require patience and a level of metagame skill (in the good sense of the word) beyond just what you can see on the skillsheet.

But I'd posit this with the fact that there's nothing wrong with starting out your character with the intent to have shit blow up in your face. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Starting out with the intention of causing as much mischief and mayhem in the city as possible before you're finally killed is not the worst thing in the world. It's not particularly griefing (certainly less griefy than those asshats who lure kryl to the road and leave them there to kill newbs) and there's a hundred ways to die in the city that aren't related at all to the social powers and constructs in the game. If you spend 3-5 real weeks providing some content for other players to hunt you down and kill you, then respect, brah. Go out with dignity and grace and they should at least throw you some kudos for saving them from a life of otherwise dreary boredom sitting in the Gaj staring at the same mudsex dolls day after day and listening to the latest news about the upcoming fashion show in our gritty, grimdark universe.

[Malken]

When I last played an elf pickpocket, eons ago, it was one of the most boring experience ever.

I twinked up my steal, sneak and hide skills until I hit master because I knew that the minute someone would just LOOK at me it'd be all over, career and probably life-wise. If people's pouches and weapons start disappearing and they know there's that one elf PC hanging about, no matter where, they'll start sending in the army.

It was so bad at some point that every single time a new elf PC would pop into the game that poor elf PC was automatically accused of all the crimes my own-yet-undiscovered PC was committing. I remember this poor silver-haired elf merchant who was trying every single tricks in the book to be left alone (bribing, buying ales at the Gaj for soldiers, crafting in plain sight to be deemed non-pickpocket'ish by the code-twinks, etc.) but no matter what he was constantly being accused by nearly everyone, including the Lords and Ladies I would hit up at the Red's.

While it was a pretty hilarious role and I was doing mostly all of this for the lulz, it was also an extremely boring role because I practically never interacted with any other PCs during that pickpocket's lifetime, again, because I knew that the minute someone would just LOOK at me, it would be all over for that PC. They even started sending some militia PCs into the 'rinth's tavern to see if they could spot my PC.

I finally died after attempting to palm dung in some Lady's inventory (hey, it worked the first 20 times) and that was probably the first and last time someone got to look at my PC.

[Riev]

These stories are the ones that make me the most upset, because there are so few elf PCs represented, despite the rather LARGE portion of the population that are elves.

So as soon as someone SEES an elf, it must be 'all elves'. But its not like picking on a Salarri, who has friends, or even an indie who has paid off the militia. Its an elf, who cannot call on ANY other elves to help out or do a thing about whatever may be happening.

I have a hard time believing some crafting sharpear in the Gaj is getting bullied and pissed on (sometimes literally) by people, and the group of elves in the corner doesn't get up and say something about it.

[Miradus]

I have a hard time believing some crafting sharpear in the Gaj is getting bullied and pissed on (sometimes literally) by people, and the group of elves in the corner doesn't get up and say something about it.

Ah, Riev. I love ya, man.

But the vnpc world is there to come alive only to harass or bother you. It's not there to ever help you.

Every, single time I've ever counted on the vnpc world giving me a leg up ... it failed me. Yet when I am idling afk to heal up some wounds or regen movement, the vnpc world suddenly comes alive and tells me to move on or they'll kill me.

Does it sound like I'm being bitter to storytellers there? Maybe a little. I think, from my limited perspective, the problem stems from the storyteller culture where it may be considered bad form to animate for someone else's clan. Your clan storyteller can animate for you, and they'll next be available on Friday from 10pm-11pm CST if you schedule an RPT. But any storyteller feels free to animate at any time for anybody if they observe you doing something that they deem out-of-bounds, EVEN if you've done it a thousand times before.

If you want to play a sneaky, either elf or human, then don't count on the vnpc world to do anything except hinder you.

Even your PC buddies may or may not help you. At the end of the day, it's you, your wits, and your skillsheet. And that may simply not be enough to save you.

[Riev]

And unfortunately, Miradus, that is one of the biggest problems with playing City Elves in general.

Most people that see a Desert Elf in the bar will kind of avoid them the way you should avoid a gemmed, because they look buff/nasty/etc. But a city elf, you KNOW you can do whatever you want and, OOCly? They chose elf, they should expect it.

But I just genuinely don't believe you SHOULD expect some of the reactions you get. I want people calling me names, making me pay an extra small for 'thief's tax' or whatever you want to do to racially discriminate against me. But I also want you to know that there are probably 3 elves watching to make sure you don't take it too far, and as a human you should know you don't want to start a race war.

I remember being in Tuluk, and I think it was Malifaxis that was playing an Akai S'jirr dealer. He, and 2 elf PCs were talking to my human who wanted to buy some stonework or whatever he was doing, and they all pulled weapons on him. In daylight. On a generally used road. And I was PISSED OOCly like "How can they do this to me! They're elves!".

But then I was reminded, that I was surrounded by taller, cloaked humanoid figures, who all were pointing spears at me. Daylight or not, who would've run off and said anything? Would a Legionnaire even have paused to give a shit? And from that point on, I knew that elves are assholes, but fuck do you not want to bother when there's more than one. So? Now we kill and pester and molest them until there IS ONLY one visible.

[nauta]

There's nothing wrong with emoting out a casual and occasional hint that there are other elves around.  I tend to do it on my humans whenever I antagonize a PC elf, so they don't feel picked on completely.  Nothing over the top, and certainly nothing that would benefit your PC, but if someone needs a gentle reminder that there are virtual elves at the bar, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Two things to remember:

(1) Elves distrust each other, unless they are in your tribe.  It isn't clear to me if they dislike each other MORE than they dislike humans in general, but I'd imagine there's a spectrum.  So, while you can assume humans will dogpile an elf for the lulz, you can't exactly assume that a random elf will help you out.

(2) For sure, species-ism against elves should take the virtual documented world in account.  You can beat a breed with little IC consequences, but if you beat down on an elf, you should at least toss out some feels that his or her tribemates might just beat you down later.  Moreover, at least according to those old population charts, there's like, what, 2% of the population is breed, so don't expect any consequences there, but 30-40% of Allanak is elf, even if they are oppressed -- so don't just assume that's the only elf at the bar.  (There's echoes too in the Gaj of groups of elves.)

That said, my observations tip the other direction: people tend to lean more towards 'making friends' than being bigoted assholes around strangers. Moar bigotry.