Getting More People to Play (City) Elves

[Melkor]

I think C-elves are nearly perfect as-is, including their place in society. They have no natural place within walls around a multiracial society, which is why any integration is begrudged. They are the ancestors of tribals who were too weak to cut it alone, out in the sands, and city-life made them even more soft.

I do think, however, that C-elves should commonly ride mounts. Should they proud of it? No, because they knew their ancestors could outrun said mount over vast distances, but their body has its limitations, so they need to work with them.

[Dar]

Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers.  Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.

If you want to wander the Known, play a desert elf. It's really that simple. City elves are street vermin. That's all they know. Their ancestors who originated from the sands may be rolling in their graves knowing that their descendants are eking out a living in some alleyway but the idea of wandering the Known, to a city elf, would be abhorrent, much as it would to many citizens of Nak or Tuluk. That's just their concept, it's who they are. There's no need to amplify the current city elf skill tree because that's not what they're designed for. There's already a great solution if you want to travel as an elf: play a desert elf.

That's the thing, Ghanima. None of the Elves are wanderers. None. Delves are territorial guardians of their turf. Celves are city bound. There is no wondering going on. The way the elves are is diametrically opposite of the concept of "wanderers". Whether it's for the better, or for worse is arguable. But the statement "If you want to wonder, play a delf" does not apply to how the theme is.

I too am against improving celven skill tree. They're fine. I am also not disputing the fact that for a Celf to go out into the waste is abhorrent. This is not what this thread is about. This thread is about making Celves more interesting and favourable to play. And removing the mental antipathy to wondering for a celf, would truly help.

[ghanima]

Truth be said. I wouldnt mind celves to be wonderers.  Keep the inability to ride. Let them hoof it. But allow and maybe even encourage their desire to roam across the 'entire' known.

If you want to wander the Known, play a desert elf. It's really that simple. City elves are street vermin. That's all they know. Their ancestors who originated from the sands may be rolling in their graves knowing that their descendants are eking out a living in some alleyway but the idea of wandering the Known, to a city elf, would be abhorrent, much as it would to many citizens of Nak or Tuluk. That's just their concept, it's who they are. There's no need to amplify the current city elf skill tree because that's not what they're designed for. There's already a great solution if you want to travel as an elf: play a desert elf.

That's the thing, Ghanima. None of the Elves are wanderers. None. Delves are territorial guardians of their turf. Celves are city bound. There is no wondering going on. The way the elves are is diametrically opposite of the concept of "wanderers". Whether it's for the better, or for worse is arguable. But the statement "If you want to wonder, play a delf" does not apply to how the theme is.

I too am against improving celven skill tree. They're fine. I am also not disputing the fact that for a Celf to go out into the waste is abhorrent. This is not what this thread is about. This thread is about making Celves more interesting and favourable to play. And removing the mental antipathy to wondering for a celf, would truly help.

A d-elf who goes on some sort of rite of passage to travel the Known and prove his worth to his tribe, is in fact a wanderer. A d-elf who leaves his territory to seek out more exotic prey and bring it back to his people, is in fact a wanderer. The only reason it doesn't apply to c-elves is because they are essentially prisoners of the system, victims of the inner city. There's no reason they should be allowed to ride because if you're a c-elf you'd never leave the city to begin with.

If it's too great a deal maybe someone can put in a request for the word wanderer to be removed but I still don't think the docs need to be completely rewritten or that they are somehow contradictory. The elvish wanderer mindset can also mean that they are simply inquisitive by nature. They're like cats. And that element is going to come out even in a c-elf's personality somehow despite that they are confined to the city walls. One way that that aspect of their personality is played out is by stealing from other people.

[Armaddict]

A city elf who constantly patrols around the city from place to place looking for a scam is wandering.  You guys are way too caught up with the demand that it result in traveling.  Take that out of the document if you must, but again, it's -far- from 'race-breaking' to the point of retconning or redeveloping the race.

[Black]

I would like it if there was more incentive to play city elves. I don't know about changing certain things, but I would like to see them have the ability to ride, maybe just not to get the skill or to be able to level it up much. I mean there would be a cultural view on it, and it likely would come with its own issues, but I think it'd be a nice idea if implemented right. As for the other things mentioned, elf specific content sounds nice, and the Clan of them making a return would be nice. Now that there is no Tuluk, it'd be much easier to focus on city elf matters where Allanak and Luir's are.

[Lizzie]

I'd say - especially since the non-virtual game world of PCs no longer has Tuluk as an enemy - restore the ALA, or some semblance thereof.

It'll get bloody and messy and players will get their feelings hurt but damn it'll be fun once they get past the initial "but that's not FAAAIIIR!!" half-hour after the beep.

[chrisdcoulombe]

One of my favorite c elves I made was just that a wander.  Warrior/Nomad..He traveled all over on foot with his best friend another c elf.  He killed drov beetles and Carru.  He later joined the Byn with his friend.  They met a half elf that thought he was an elf.   They knew he was a filthy breed and tried to exploit him by selling Byn food to him really cheap.  They worked it up to a racket in time.  Selling Byn food to the Rynth for pennies on the dollar.  And the Rynth was happy to oblige because they are poor and hungry.  They were eventually betrayed by a Sando and He was killed in a RedStorm apartment with Perraine.  Rip Isos

[Synthesis]

Both of my favorite PCs were city-elves...but they were both clanned Jaxa Pah (or equivalent).  As long as that is no longer possible, it's hard for me to justify rolling a city-elf PC other than to grief.

[Riev]

With how much PCs like to follow the documentation of 'hating on elves', there really is no way for elves to gather without making a Family Role Call that staff can oversee. Because as soon as two elves talk to each other in the Labyrinth, other clans that are as similarly-starving for strife and interaction will waffle-stomp them.

I've seen good city elves in the Byn. I've seen the occasional city elf Kuraci that did a decent job. Most "gud" city elves tend to be fighters of some sort. Like, an elven thief doesn't seem to last too long because the game will swarm.

Open up Jaxa. The Sandas. Open some other clan they CAN join, that doesn't basically force them to inconvenience other players because they need to tent down every 3 minutes.

[650Booger]

just chiming in to say that city-elves are fun AF in their current form.  not broken, don't fix.

[Jihelu]

I'm pretty sure if you made a DELF and do...
"
A d-elf who goes on some sort of rite of passage to travel the Known and prove his worth to his tribe, is in fact a wanderer. A d-elf who leaves his territory to seek out more exotic prey and bring it back to his people, is in fact a wanderer. The only reason it doesn't apply to c-elves is because they are essentially prisoners of the system, victims of the inner city. There's no reason they should be allowed to ride because if you're a c-elf you'd never leave the city to begin with.
"

I think you get stored for just fucking off. I know for roles like "Kuraci family member" you would, not sure if it counts for Delves as you are signing up for the roll of "Generic delf numer 12"

[ghanima]

I think you get stored for just fucking off. I know for roles like "Kuraci family member" you would, not sure if it counts for Delves as you are signing up for the roll of "Generic delf numer 12"

If the concept of the tribe demands things like a rite of passage/test of adulthood and it's written into their clan docs, why would you get stored for doing it? As for whether or not you'd get stored for doing the same thing a d-elf does if you're a Kuraci family member. Well, I certainly hope that you would get stored! D-elves are not the same as Kuraci family members, so why draw a comparison there?

[Riev]

I think, and I'm not sure because there's a language barrier here, that he means if you're in a sponsored role like Kuraci Family, and you're fucking off (I assume either not playing, or not playing to documentation) that you can be stored. But a desert elf would not get stored for not following wandering documentation? Because they... aren't... sponsored roles?


I'm fine with City Elves being proud of their ability to run the streets, and as I've said I've seen some outdoorsy city elves that did a decent job (Sharak was a city elf, and my GOD). I just think, due to their background, having no family to join, no clan, and no clans other than the Byn or Kurac that WOULD hire them, its less about "playing a difficult race" and "playing a race that has more limited places it can go than a mul slave"

[lostinspace]

IMO the worst parts about city elf are:
1. Very few clans to join
2 Can't play ranger (what many people see as the best guild)
3. No good will from other players

Hopefully #2 will go away with upcoming guild changes, leaving just the social disadvantages. Desert elves get ranger, get a bonus to running, and get a clan of people to play with. Give City Elves some of those things or something equivalent, and they'll see more play. Until then they're just going to be a niche race that has interesting RP options.

[Jihelu]

I think you get stored for just fucking off. I know for roles like "Kuraci family member" you would, not sure if it counts for Delves as you are signing up for the roll of "Generic delf numer 12"

If the concept of the tribe demands things like a rite of passage/test of adulthood and it's written into their clan docs, why would you get stored for doing it? As for whether or not you'd get stored for doing the same thing a d-elf does if you're a Kuraci family member. Well, I certainly hope that you would get stored! D-elves are not the same as Kuraci family members, so why draw a comparison there?

We are talking about delves here right?

Is there a delf tribe that has a right of passage that involves leaving their lands and exploring?
I'm guessing no, I could be wrong but I feel like it's no.
So you get stored.
You can't make a delf with your own tribe bs.

[Riev]

In fact we're talking about people playing CITY elves, rather primarily.

Also, please re-read your original post that we were responding to, Jihelu, because it was very fragmented and difficult to understand. Related to the concept, however, I don't remember being told that I could not go to some other region on my Vision Quest (for lack of a better term) with a desert elf. Normally they wouldn't WANT to go from the Pah into the Salt Flats for a vision quest, but maybe thats where they were drawn. Maybe they were drawn to the mountains of the Xytrix Za.

But this has little to do with getting people to play more CITY elves, or even explaining why desert elves might "have it better" So what is your point?

[Jihelu]

In fact we're talking about people playing CITY elves, rather primarily.

Also, please re-read your original post that we were responding to, Jihelu, because it was very fragmented and difficult to understand. Related to the concept, however, I don't remember being told that I could not go to some other region on my Vision Quest (for lack of a better term) with a desert elf. Normally they wouldn't WANT to go from the Pah into the Salt Flats for a vision quest, but maybe thats where they were drawn. Maybe they were drawn to the mountains of the Xytrix Za.

But this has little to do with getting people to play more CITY elves, or even explaining why desert elves might "have it better" So what is your point?

I was just replying to the other guy.

[Riev]

In fact we're talking about people playing CITY elves, rather primarily.

Also, please re-read your original post that we were responding to, Jihelu, because it was very fragmented and difficult to understand. Related to the concept, however, I don't remember being told that I could not go to some other region on my Vision Quest (for lack of a better term) with a desert elf. Normally they wouldn't WANT to go from the Pah into the Salt Flats for a vision quest, but maybe thats where they were drawn. Maybe they were drawn to the mountains of the Xytrix Za.

But this has little to do with getting people to play more CITY elves, or even explaining why desert elves might "have it better" So what is your point?

I was just replying to the other guy.

Its not a disparagement, just that comment you made was hard to follow and might need to be reworded.

[ghanima]

There are a hundred reasons a d-elf might leave their territory which are all legit and probably happen within the PC community alone daily. From scouting to hunting exotic prey to searching for much needed resources.

If you're just cruising the entire game world for fun with no real purpose in mind I can see how that might put you on staff radar. But in my experience if you're actually RPing your exploration no one really cares. After all, you're not playing a Kuraci family member or something like that, so have at it!

There's nothing stopping you from playing out the elvish penchant for wandering as long as it's executed properly.

[Riev]

And this works for city-elves too, as I've mentioned a few have joined the T'zai Byn and been relatively successful. They're still a burden with having to stop, tent, buy them travelling clothes, etc etc... but I can remember a semi-recent event where I had a pair of elves working for me and it was absolutely amazing. Both of them were spectacular to have around.

[Cind]

I enjoy playing c-elves in the Byn because often I have to unexpectedly drop what I am doing and leave, and you can't do that while on escorts or god forbid something more important. Once you get to trooper, you are expected to start making money for the byn, but a c-elf can reasonably be expected to just stay in the compound, or stay in the compound save for Storm escorts. Often they're at a strength potential where they can train new recruits and take that unwanted burden off of others. The thing is, I think many bynners want humans, dwarves and giants for their strength potential and those grevious hits. If you get an elf, its a lot harder to get there.

I always though c-elves made great witches of certain kinds, but I swear to god I haven't seen a c-elf mage since Tears. I think people don't want to be walking around with a level of discrimination that invites people to kill them on the street if they can get away with it.

[Kialae]

I play c-elf gickers but ungemmed. Rinth c-elves can be fun. They lack the sheer agency the Guild does in comparison though, which is unfortunate.

[lostinspace]

I always though c-elves made great witches of certain kinds, but I swear to god I haven't seen a c-elf mage since Tears. I think people don't want to be walking around with a level of discrimination that invites people to kill them on the street if they can get away with it.

I pretty much just assumed that moving gickery to subguilds meant way more people were just secretly gicks because it's way easier to hide now. Tears is the last Celf with a gem that I remember as well.

[Cind]

Nothing says 'Fuck the system' like a c-elf rogue witch.

The main reason I want to see a bunch of people playing c-elves is mostly for the vibes and such.
The world would feel poorer, more desperate, and more like the city really is overrun with elves, the destitute, and people who need luck and brains to survive, if there were 3-5 elves around for every five humans.

But a lot of the conflict, and a lot of the goodies are in the 1%, which with the closing of the Jaxa Pah is all human (a lot of people would say they are not 1%, but I wouldn't tell them to their face, which makes them that for me.) Unless someone comes up with something brilliant, things will probably stay as they are, and that's not totally a bad thing.

But what would actually happen if there -were- four or five c-elves for every human? You'd be replacing one unrepresentative situation for another. Instead of nine humans and a giant all with silver spoons in their mouth at the bar, three of whom can beat any fucker in the world in a straight fight, you'd have five of those humans and five elves--- those humans still having silver spoons, and three of the elves as well. The other two elves would be extremely short-lived creatures whose sole goal is to provide a thrill before dying at the hands of soldiers. Those poor humans, those poor elves, who don't know what a jail cell looks like and don't know what Oash wine taste like, are the sole realm of me, because I'm the only one who plays them. Apart from the stablemucking job which can support a single individual that plays a lot, there isn't something coded for those people inside the city. You can play a tavern waitress for a while, but eventually you're going to have to switch to something that pays in real money or real food.

The point sounded better in my head, but I guess what I'm saying is the playerbase doesn't need to be representative for us to have a good time. It might actually be better off not being so.

Also: reopen the Jaxa Pah, everyone wins.

[Riev]

Jaxa Pah reopening has been the clarion call for c-elves for so long, and its never worked.

Has staff ever given a reason as to why there are no city-elf tribes? Is it because elves, as a whole, struggle to work together in a trusting relationship the way humans do? Because I'm pretty sure humans fuck up every relationship they're in one way or another.

Is there a reason people shit on elves when they see one, despite the fact that virtually there are a lot more of them you can't see? Yes. Because you don't see virtual elves in the background, ready to throw some knobby elbows at you for picking on one of their own.

We don't need a LOT of city elves, but we could stand to not drop an H-Bomb on them when they appear because "that's what we're supposed to do"