Bring back the uniquely Zalanthan Drovian, Elkrosian and Nilazi

[sleepyhead]

I never thought Nilazi seemed so sloppy or nonsensical as Nergal seems to consider them. It makes me sad that this is his interpretation. I always thought the presence of Nilazi revealed something about the philosophy of the world and the nature of the Zalanthan cosmos. There seemed to be mysteries there to ponder and a lot of room for interesting characters with interesting belief systems. I had such a wonderful (to me) Nilazi character concept written up. Part of me wants to share it here to make my case, but the other part says no, on the remote possibility that Nilazi will ever be brought back in a recognizable form that can still work with my character. Not that I really play anymore anyway.

Tough titty, I know. The game changes and sometimes you wait years to play something and then it's closed. I know that's just life as an Arm player. Not sure why I'm sharing this. I guess just to show that some people actually enjoy the aspects that Nergal thinks are half-assed and think they are really cool, interesting, and inspiring.

[Riev]

I would also like to mention that I am 100% behind "doing something right" as opposed to "sending it out sloppy and barely there".

The issue that I think is in the hearts of those of us who want these things back, is we HAD our toys, and you are now the administration that took our toys and told us they weren't good toys so you're going to fix them. And your administration, while doing things right, has the unfortunate position of being in a time where we want immediate satisfaction. Unfortunately, "coming soon" is just as true in Arm as it is in multi-million dollar game companies, meaning you say a revamp or a check in is possible, but we don't have 5 years to wait for a new administration to pick it up.

If you're going to do it right, I'm for it. The Guild Revamp sounds like you're "waiting to make sure its done right". But these classes that "still exist but not for you plebs" is hurtful to the players, and it feels like "you know best so get over it".

[Jihelu]

My biggest complaint about all of this is that "We aren't bringing them back" yet they still exist.

I forget if there have been current nilazi, but I've either heard from ooc friends or something about either more nilazi existing, via staff animations and what not, or it was from before they were removed.

So they can exist but you can't play them because spells or something.

I hate that.

"The drovian spell in question could be removed, or have some risk added or have some of the functionality reduced or limited."

If I understand correctly the spell in question is already gone, or maybe that's some sort of meta knowledge. If so edit this out. I didn't say which spell it was though so I assume it's fine.

I hate that no new Drovians have popped up and there is no ic reason why without vaguely searching or straight doing X vague activity or asking staff, only to be told you have to find out your self. I just want shadow powers. Or the ability to summon hoards of the undead.

Sorcerers still get some of the spells from Drov/Nilaz. So I guess theres that but it isn't the same as being death incarnate.

I loved the concept of Nilazi. Making a Nilazi that believes in keeping death and life in balance. Making a Nilazi that wants to help people but his own nature and abilities make it so he can't. Making a nilazi warlord who knows he is powerful and uses his abilities how he so pleases.
This doesn't extend to Elkrosians and Drovians, for me, because I see them as more elemental as opposed to a Nilazi, not that it isn't elemental (Or maybe it isn't or something), but I see Nilazi as something that can increase roleplay.

Ability wise I'd love to play a fucking Elkrosian though, jesus christ their spells are so good.

[boog]

Spreading misinformation you've heard secondhand from "ooc friends," isn't really cool. It's speculation that facilitates a negative attitude on the GDB, dude.

If you don't know, why would you post about those sorts of things to begin with? :/

[wizturbo]

Ability wise I'd love to play a fucking Elkrosian though, jesus christ their spells are so good.

They totally are, and so were the Drovian and Nilazi spells.   They were fun.  The game is less fun without them.

[Jihelu]

Ability wise I'd love to play a fucking Elkrosian though, jesus christ their spells are so good.

They totally are, and so were the Drovian and Nilazi spells.   They were fun.  The game is less fun without them.

Drovians: I've never seen personally ig. Though from what I've heard and talked to IC, they sound cool...a bit utility, but cool.

Nilazi: Fuck Nilazi. Icly, of course. They sound so god damn scary. All of their abilities sound like something you say that everyone just blinks and goes "What"

"What do you mean you can -whatever- just by saying words?"
I feel like it captures the "Magick is scary" idea, objectively. This isn't no "Oh but water magick can heal", this is "Void magick is fucking spooky"

[wizturbo]

Nilazi were super scary and had amazing flavor.  The fact that their spells touched on both necromancy and anti-element themes was interesting and mysterious.  It begged philosophical questions about the nature of magick and created moral ambiguities.  It makes me sad that the people in control of the games direction don't appreciate them in the same way.

[sleepyhead]

Nilazi were super scary and had amazing flavor.  The fact that their spells touched on both necromancy and anti-element themes was interesting and mysterious.  It begged philosophical questions about the nature of magick and created moral ambiguities.  It makes me sad that the people in control of the games direction don't appreciate them in the same way.

I agree 100%

[Feco]

The game is less fun without them.

Well put.  This is probably the most important issue.

[boog]

The game is less fun without them.

Well put.  This is probably the most important issue.

I disagree. The game is much better without Drovians ruining -everything- without -any- risk.

[palomar]

The game is less fun without them.

Well put.  This is probably the most important issue.

I disagree. The game is much better without Drovians ruining -everything- without -any- risk.

Gemmed Drovians in their temple were at almost no risk. Other Drovians, not so safe. Also the spell has other limitations of varying significance. Ruining something is a perception of the player(s). I guess there have been a few Drovian PCs around who were good at sniffing out what was going on.

[lairos]

The game is less fun without them.

Well put.  This is probably the most important issue.

I disagree. The game is much better without Drovians ruining -everything- without -any- risk.

There was always risk. I won't get into the mechanics, but the risk was there. It just depended on if someone wanted to act on it or not. A Drovian also made people a lot more wary of doing things privately and of what they said openly. There are still a few cases left, but the fear of discovery is seemingly lost which makes it less thrilling in my opinion.

There is a lot of back and forth on what the players want and what staff wants. I think the discussions are good and staff is listening. I personally loved these three and felt they added quite a bit and were unique. If we were to get them changed a bit to conform with what staff is looking at then it may be a possibility to get them back. Personally I would love to see the other sub-elements added for flavor and diversity. Over the years I have witnessed many things in the game that made these fit and have their place, but things are changing. I personally don't like seeing the gradual decrease of playable options, but I am hoping that once the changes are made that they can build off of them and give more options in the long run.

[maxid]

The game is less fun without them.

Well put.  This is probably the most important issue.

I disagree. The game is much better without Drovians ruining -everything- without -any- risk.

This never really happened, fortunately.  The straw man you're angry at exists only in your mind, and it always has.

[Riev]

The game is less fun without them.

Well put.  This is probably the most important issue.

I disagree. The game is much better without Drovians ruining -everything- without -any- risk.

This never really happened, fortunately.  The straw man you're angry at exists only in your mind, and it always has.

There were definitely times where Drovians would know things they really shouldn't, and report to people who can break plots.

I've seen them kill NPCs they shouldn't have had access to. I've been party to them demanding information I SHOULD know as a PC but hadn't been told yet, and they set people after me for 'lying'.

Its hard to kill something that can sustain itself behind 2 locked doors.

[maxid]

Every class can be played by a twink.  The overwhelming majority were good players.

[wizturbo]

It really comes down to perspective.  If a Drovian found out secrets and shared them, the people who had those secrets revealed feel like "everything is ruined", whereas the population that finds out the secrets just had a bunch of cool content added to their experience. 

The degree to which people thought spying was happening is also massively inflated.  Drovians like to pretend they knew everything because that's in-character for them, but they didn't.   The perception of the risks involved with playing a Drovian were also inflated.  But honestly, that's all besides the point.  If there was a problem with Drovians being able to spy it could've been universally solved in minutes without even removing that spell.  Make that spell "deaf" and the entire problem is solved.  Done.  Entire class saved from the chopping block.  But honestly, I think staff just wanted to remove this stuff.  They were looking for excuses, not reasons to keep it.  I wish I understood why... 

[maxid]

Yeah, anyone complaining about Drovians never played any Drovians, and DEFINITELY never played any mindbenders.  A Drovian's spying ability is also -hilariously- easy to avoid being the victim of if you know anything about them IC (or even make some educated guesses based on helpfiles, or think for half a second before talking about your top secret plots.)  So like if you know you're doing a plot that might attract the attention of a Drovian, or if you know for certain a Drovian is messing with you, then you can easily avoid being spied on in several different ways.

Like Wizturbo said - it's a matter of perspective too.  Your plot could've just as easily been ruined by a person with max Listen, or really good hide/sneak, or a mindbender, or a mundane person who you told blabbing, or someone guessing what's up based on things that are happening.  There are a dozen different ways.  In addition, someone -smugly saying- they know what's up usually doesn't know what's up.  You're literally falling for an IC bluff OOCly.  Get some guile, guys.



vvvv Also what Moe said.  Big time what Moe said. Anti-Drovians are confusing pro-Drovians as being after ~*Power*~ when they're only after Flavor.  This is an RPI, the RP aspect is just more important to some of us apparently. vvvv

[Marauder Moe]

I think it's also important to note that most of us pro-Drovian people are fine with having them back even without that spell.  There's more to them than that.

I should also say that, if it is a consideration, the notion of some subguilds being very similar/redundant with others is TOTALLY FINE.  If an Elkran Aspect of Lightning ends up functioning very similar to Suk-Krath aspect of Devastation, so what?

[Feco]

So, Nergal had this to say about Drovians:

Drovians
Drovians have the power of Drov at their side, supposedly. They have a few shadow-related spells and they have some other random utility spells. Let's be honest here: the main draw of this class to the playerbase was a certain spell that destroys plots at no risk to the caster. Having such a spell proliferate makes the game painful to play, and cutting that skill from the class takes away one of the main draws of playing the class. They do not fit into the game world at present because they do not have enough features to clearly define themselves.

Even if that one spell were removed, or neutered, or whatever, they had other incredibly interesting spells.  That said, I agree that, as a guild, they didn't have a lot going for them.  The rest of the spells combined didn't really give a drovian and oomph.

But as a subguild?  I can think of a ton of interesting combinations.  Certain spells were largely useless to Drovians because they sucked at just about everything but magick.  Those spells would be very useful and interesting in the hands of a mundane-guilded character.

[boog]

Man. People projecting their anger onto me is cute. I'm not angry about any of this except that we have three topics rolling around on the hate cycle right now.

A little unnecessary, really.

Moe, I don't know if you should speak for everyone like that. If they were brought back without that spell... I can only imagine what GDB meltdown would ensue.

[sleepyhead]

There are so many more creative ways to deal with the problem that is that spell than nixing the class altogether.

[Jihelu]

People implying they still have the spell.

[maxid]

Man. People projecting their anger onto me is cute. I'm not angry about any of this except that we have three topics rolling around on the hate cycle right now.

A little unnecessary, really.

Moe, I don't know if you should speak for everyone like that. If they were brought back without that spell... I can only imagine what GDB meltdown would ensue.

Boog, you constantly choose to insert yourself into a conversation that you don't have to click on in order to let us all know that you want the conversation to STOP and that NOBODY should be talking about this topic because you, boog, don't want to talk about it.

It's pretty clear you're mad about the fact that this topic is happening.  That doesn't give your opinions much weight though.

[Lizzie]

Ruining some plots could equate with encouraging other plots. In some cases, "really awesome plot involving 3 clans and 1 tribe" can't move forward until Drovian ruins "this one elf's plot." Sucks to be that elf, but sometimes you just gotta ruin a plot.

Not always the case, sometimes it's in the reverse and that's pretty sucky. But - Drovians didn't ruin every plot, and there were even Drovians that didn't ruin ANY plot at all. In fact, there might be some Drovians whose plots were ruined by Whirans, or mindbenders, or templars, or their fuck-buddies, or by people who insist that Drovians ruin every plot and set out to make problems for them simply because they have an OOC disdain for them.

[Molten Heart]

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