Bring back the uniquely Zalanthan Drovian, Elkrosian and Nilazi

[Feco]

Can I take this opportunity to address language like "ruining" or "destroying" plots?  (note: this is assuming by "plots" we mean "stories," and not "plans")

A plot isn't ruined or destroyed if the ones planning it fail.  A plot isn't ruined or destroyed if it comes to a resolution early.  Someone's plans can be ruined or destroyed, but that's actually part of the plot.  In D&D, where one oftentimes has a prewritten story going with some small collection of endings, a plot can be ruined if someone reveals how it's going to end, or if someone is using information they otherwise shouldn't have (although this isn't even necessarily true -- a good DM should be able to fix this issue on the fly).  The plot isn't ruined if the PCs go off on some tangent, or all get killed, or just straight fail to complete the adventure as expected -- these are opportunities for new things to happen.

I think this is a serious problem.  It's language I've seen both staff and players use.  Getting you shit kicked in and not getting to carry out your goals doesn't mean some asshole "ruined your plot."  Maybe this is just a language problem.  Maybe folk just mean their plans were ruined.  It doesn't sound like that, though.

Furthermore, on Drovians:

I'd hold that the problem with Drovians, in particular, was not that they ruined plots, but rather, that they contributed to an incredible amount of concentrated power in Allanak: gemmed mages were relatively safe; they could report just about any information they learned without fear of negative response; and they reported to powerhouses (Templars) who could actualy act on that information.

The problem wasn't plots getting ruined.  The problem was that the Allanaki Templarate had a means to stomp out anyone they felt like.  You could not sneak around them.  It was a similar problem in Tuluk.  The Templarate already has incredible power, codedly and not.  Giving them unfettered access to tools like Drovians reinforces the Allanaki Iron Fist narrative, to the point that it isn't fun to play many types of roles, or to make certain types of plans.

If the sort of thing Drovians were doing were actually problematic, we would have a serious, SERIOUS problem with Psionicists.  Drovians had a means to become "safe" and semi "accepted."  In contrast, the information a psionicst gets has to be handled carefully, because what are they gonna do?  Say "Oh ya I sucked it out of that dude's mind?"

There's a cost to the powers given to a psionicist.  It makes them fun, and makes us not hate them.

There should be a cost to the powers given to a Drovian.  I think Drovians were problematic.  It wasn't the spell, though.  It was the spell combined with the ability to be gemmed and protected by the unstoppable force that is a City State.

Let's just say that Drovians were still in the game.  How could we fix it?  Make them incapable of being gemmed.  Ruling from the Templarate: Drovians are weird and creepy and they make the Templarate uncomfortable.

Wham, bam, done.  Sure, they can still learn a shitload of stuff, but who are they gonna tell?  Hell, a Templar could even work with one, but they'd be putting themselves and their reputation in danger in doing so.  This would have the added advantage of moving some power into the hands of rogue and independent groups -- that's always fun, methinks.

[Marauder Moe]

I would rather them just not have the spell than making them un-gemmable.

Though, you could have the gem itself stifle the spell.

[Delirium]

Man. People projecting their anger onto me is cute. I'm not angry about any of this except that we have three topics rolling around on the hate cycle right now.

A little unnecessary, really.

Moe, I don't know if you should speak for everyone like that. If they were brought back without that spell... I can only imagine what GDB meltdown would ensue.

Boog, you constantly choose to insert yourself into a conversation that you don't have to click on in order to let us all know that you want the conversation to STOP and that NOBODY should be talking about this topic because you, boog, don't want to talk about it.

It's pretty clear you're mad about the fact that this topic is happening.  That doesn't give your opinions much weight though.

Whoa, whoa. Boog's opinion that this is a non-issue weighs just as much as your opinion that it is an issue.

This is an internet forum and we're all nerds debating stuff about an online game, so let's just keep this in perspective.

[BadSkeelz]

Can I take this opportunity to address language like "ruining" or "destroying" plots?  (note: this is assuming by "plots" we mean "stories," and not "plans")

A plot isn't ruined or destroyed if the ones planning it fail.  A plot isn't ruined or destroyed if it comes to a resolution early.  Someone's plans can be ruined or destroyed, but that's actually part of the plot.  In D&D, where one oftentimes has a prewritten story going with some small collection of endings, a plot can be ruined if someone reveals how it's going to end, or if someone is using information they otherwise shouldn't have (although this isn't even necessarily true -- a good DM should be able to fix this issue on the fly).  The plot isn't ruined if the PCs go off on some tangent, or all get killed, or just straight fail to complete the adventure as expected -- these are opportunities for new things to happen.

I think this is a serious problem.  It's language I've seen both staff and players use.  Getting you shit kicked in and not getting to carry out your goals doesn't mean some asshole "ruined your plot."  Maybe this is just a language problem.  Maybe folk just mean their plans were ruined.  It doesn't sound like that, though.

Furthermore, on Drovians:

I'd hold that the problem with Drovians, in particular, was not that they ruined plots, but rather, that they contributed to an incredible amount of concentrated power in Allanak: gemmed mages were relatively safe; they could report just about any information they learned without fear of negative response; and they reported to powerhouses (Templars) who could actualy act on that information.

The problem wasn't plots getting ruined.  The problem was that the Allanaki Templarate had a means to stomp out anyone they felt like.  You could not sneak around them.  It was a similar problem in Tuluk.  The Templarate already has incredible power, codedly and not.  Giving them unfettered access to tools like Drovians reinforces the Allanaki Iron Fist narrative, to the point that it isn't fun to play many types of roles, or to make certain types of plans.

If the sort of thing Drovians were doing were actually problematic, we would have a serious, SERIOUS problem with Psionicists.  Drovians had a means to become "safe" and semi "accepted."  In contrast, the information a psionicst gets has to be handled carefully, because what are they gonna do?  Say "Oh ya I sucked it out of that dude's mind?"

There's a cost to the powers given to a psionicist.  It makes them fun, and makes us not hate them.

There should be a cost to the powers given to a Drovian.  I think Drovians were problematic.  It wasn't the spell, though.  It was the spell combined with the ability to be gemmed and protected by the unstoppable force that is a City State.

Let's just say that Drovians were still in the game.  How could we fix it?  Make them incapable of being gemmed.  Ruling from the Templarate: Drovians are weird and creepy and they make the Templarate uncomfortable.

Wham, bam, done.  Sure, they can still learn a shitload of stuff, but who are they gonna tell?  Hell, a Templar could even work with one, but they'd be putting themselves and their reputation in danger in doing so.  This would have the added advantage of moving some power into the hands of rogue and independent groups -- that's always fun, methinks.

The reason we don't have "problems" with Psionicists is because getting a Psion to "uncounterable super spy" level is waaaaaaay more difficult and risky than it is to get a Drovian. Psion skill progression makes little sense (from what I've heard of it), and the chance of outing yourself is very high. Because the class carries a death sentence, the margin for error is razor thin.

A drovian, meanwhile, is not going to easily reveal their identity even if they're detected, which seems to be a lot harder to do than with a Psionic spy.

I'd sign off on Drovians coming back (even with "That one spell," whatever it is) if the presence of a lit light source in a room (candle, torch, glowstone, etc) warded them off. Or if they had more of a chance to reveal themselves. Or if all Drovian Gemmed PCs had to have a description describing them as pasty overweight basement-dwellers.

[boog]

Man. People projecting their anger onto me is cute. I'm not angry about any of this except that we have three topics rolling around on the hate cycle right now.

A little unnecessary, really.

Moe, I don't know if you should speak for everyone like that. If they were brought back without that spell... I can only imagine what GDB meltdown would ensue.

Boog, you constantly choose to insert yourself into a conversation that you don't have to click on in order to let us all know that you want the conversation to STOP and that NOBODY should be talking about this topic because you, boog, don't want to talk about it.

It's pretty clear you're mad about the fact that this topic is happening.  That doesn't give your opinions much weight though.

Whoa, whoa. Boog's opinion that this is a non-issue weighs just as much as your opinion that it is an issue.

This is an internet forum and we're all nerds debating stuff about an online game, so let's just keep this in perspective.

I honestly just think multiple threads from the same people on repeat is much, but I guess it's easier to tell me what I actually think and feel.

Heh. Ah well. Keep going, guys. I think you're getting through.

I'm with Skeelz on this, obviously. Comparing psionicists to Drovians isn't ... Well, a real comparison, in the least.

[Armaddict]

I also toyed with the idea of passive magickal skills.  Think they'd do a lot to define things further.

I.e. For drovians, have a passive skill that if they enter combat from hiding, their opponent needs to use blind-fighting for <this> amount of time, due to the cling of the shadow around them.

Blam.  Mage mundane roles, if they have appropriate mundane skills.

Suppose that's out the window, but we can maybe apply the same principle in the feature...things that aren't -cast- so much as they just -happen-.

[John]

So, Nergal had this to say about Drovians:

Drovians
Drovians have the power of Drov at their side, supposedly. They have a few shadow-related spells and they have some other random utility spells. Let's be honest here: the main draw of this class to the playerbase was a certain spell that destroys plots at no risk to the caster. Having such a spell proliferate makes the game painful to play, and cutting that skill from the class takes away one of the main draws of playing the class. They do not fit into the game world at present because they do not have enough features to clearly define themselves.

Nilazi were removed from the game because they had too many features and were schizophrenic (although of course, Whirans somehow weren't despite being just as schizophrenic). Clearly there's a very narrow sweetspot that I can't appreciate.

[John]

Man. People projecting their anger onto me is cute. I'm not angry about any of this except that we have three topics rolling around on the hate cycle right now.

A little unnecessary, really.

Sorry? I made this thread because Nergal has made it 100% clear we are never going to get magicker guilds back whilever the current thinking is predominant among staff. I don't want to see Drovians, Elkrosians and Nilazi removed from the playable game as collateral damage, and so I made a separate thread. If you don't like the threads, there is nothing obligating you from reading them.

Also this hate cycle you keep referencing? It is responsible for magickers guilds and these magickers from being removed from the game. Because today's playerbase are tomorrow's staff. So everytime you (and everyone else) come to a thread and spread hate on something in the game, you encourage the future staff to remove said thing from the game or to change it so it is unrecognisable.

I'm trying to preserve that which I enjoy and feel makes Armageddon unique. I do not think I am participating in that hate cycle.

Moe, I don't know if you should speak for everyone like that. If they were brought back without that spell... I can only imagine what GDB meltdown would ensue.

Please cite the people demanding that Drovians are restored with that spell in tact. It's easy to use a theoretical "meltdown" in order to justify keeping something out of the game. But without actually citing something, you're spreading misinformation that helps contribute to the idea that certain things should just be kept out of the game wholesale. Just like Nergal when he tried saying every Drovian fan wants that "game breaking" spell put back into the game and don't want the class back without that spell.

[boog]

I'm not encouraging staff to do something they've already done. I'm expressing that the hate cycling, with 3 separate threads going, is a little much.

There isn't anything left to preserve, is there, John? They were taken out. It looks like they won't be back. I just don't see the point in continually bringing this topic up if there's nothing remaining to fight for. It just ruffles everyone's feathers. You might not think you're actively participating in the current trend of hate cycling, but it's also a GDB joke -- every few months, someone brings up something to hate on in a topic, and this month, it's a bunch of separate discussions about the same thing, which I do feel is a little bit much.

I'm not saying people are demanding Drovians be reinstated with that spell. I'm saying Moe maybe shouldn't suggest that. Because if that happened, we'd have a whole 'nother hate cycle about why reintegrated Drovians were gimped because they lacked that spell. It's the nature of the open forum. I'm not being ugly about it, I'm saying it's likely to happen given how unhappy people tend to state their opinions strongly upon the GDB.

[Nergal]

The thread is starting to tread toward dangerous territory in a few areas:
1) Respect for fellow posters
2) Discussion of magick mechanics
3) Speculation on psionic/magick mechanics
4) Beating a dead horse
5) Using forum alts to vote in the other thread's poll

I'm going to lock this thread now, and the related thread on full elementalists. Thank you for your opinions and the overall discussion - all options will be considered going forward, but at the moment staff have a number of projects to focus on right now.