Staff, I want an open dialogue.

[BadSkeelz]

I feel like if something like that actually happened I would have heard about it through the grapevine by now. Especially the purported incidents with other player witnesses.

[Riev]

I'm guessing the PC engaged in public sex, which is looked down on by the owner of the place they're doing it.

But "from what you're wearing" and "yeah well listen to this person because you did stuff in my cooking pits I didn't like" seem like the worst reasons to animate an NPC. But it wouldn't be the first time someone who engaged in public, in your face mudsex or craziness got focused on either by staff or players who recognize them. I can think of a few players who have been OOCly targeted like that.

[Yam]

This was sent to me a by a user on the forums, I've heavily edited things to remove information of current pcs. I'm also going to vague the fuck out of the first 'situation' as pc's may have been there, but not so much that it becomes hard to follow.
If this is true, which I see now reason for them to lie, this is heavily fucked up.


"I was (Shadowboard username). It was ironically, (Ex admin) the storyteller, along with another storyteller erasing the entire content of a post I made and actively mocking me which led me to the shadow forums, the complete stripping of my karma and the subsequent ban. I still get my posts deleted when I post a picture of who I am in the player photos thread. And there's places where it's responded to by others that haven't been deleted, a silent testament to the formerly existing post. That said, I want badly to respond to the dialogue thread, but know it will be deleted again, no surprise, and I would likely be banned again, no surprise. Here's a few of the things that've happened to me in the past six months. These are less than a year old so I can't post them, of COURSE.

Staff animated an npc that demanded a necklace from my character and called her a whore an extreme amount of times. When other pcs came to the rescue soldiers were animated to say they didn't give a fuck. This was followed by an animated of a bartender to tell me I was fucking a pc in the roastpits and to talk about about how she was dressed. My character wore only leather and cotton which covered her from chin to ankle, wrist to wrist. When I put in a complaint about it, Nergal told me she should have expected that response due to how she was dressed (covered chin to ankle) and how she was acting (only pc she'd been intimate with was her current mate as she was actually a rape victim from her bio and they were in a committed monogamous relationship).

Then, on my very NEXT pc, I had an npc byn sergeant animated to come into the latrines and tell my female pc to suck his cock as that was all she was good for. She pointed him toward a pc in the unit who was actually whoring on the side but male, and was told, and I quote 'You're all whores'."


If any part of this contained relevant ic info feel free to edit it.
If I wind up banned or something that'd be rather inconvenient so pls no.
Seeing as I removed all references of names from the first situation outside of pcs that may have been there, and if the first situation is removed for that reason that's a okay with me, there shouldn't be any sensitive info there.
The second part is pretty straight forward and seeing as it only includes a staff animation and a pc that is now dead/stored I don't see how that could be considered sensitive.
If anything, this all seems kinda sexist/anti-zalanthiasish.

I do not support this statement and I think it's piggy backing on legitimate issues.

[Jihelu]

Just from the way it is written, there's no way I can take Jihelu's posted 'example' seriously.

That kind of post is why it'll be hard to take future examples more seriously.

I mean, come on.

I'm not exactly the greatest writer, also I had to change so much of the first post to keep things sensitive.
I'm reading through the logs she sent and I'll make some reply.




There is a lot of "You're too big for your britches"talk in the log.
Literally "Don't wear expensive stuff" It's 75 coins and looks like this
"Meant to be wrapped around the waist and tied, this long skirt of
ruby-dyed cotton drapes beautifully around the legs in loose folds.  The
nature of the closing gives the skirt a diagonal slit up the side to expose
the wearer's leg when they walk.  A faint print of darker red diamonds has
been batiked onto the fabric, giving the dull crimson cotton shimmer and
depth when viewed from a distance.  "

I guess because the person saw a side of leg they decided to threaten them and decided that trying to rob them is the best choice.
Even though whores, literal sex workers, walk around the gaj semi-naked and walking off with people.


"over something that your average Allanaki would experience quite regularly if they acted and dressed like " From Nergal.

""Don't care. She ain't an advisor, eh? Ain't matter none to me. She looks too rich for her britches. Or her whore skirt."" From the animation if I'm right with who's who.
"   "You just workin' to get in her skirt, aye? She shouldn't be dresst like a noble's whore, eh?""
Same as before.






"I'm guessing the PC engaged in public sex, which is looked down on by the owner of the place they're doing it."

They hadn't.

""Gonna fight for some silky wench?"" From the npc, talking about the person not wearing any silk.

The necklace that the npc wanted to steal from her was a horror-carved, black-pearl collar, not that it means much.

The character her self wore jewerly made of rubies, the cheaper ones, and I'm not seeing where "These silky wench" insults are really coming from. Though that's mostly subjective.


To be honest the situation seems less 'as bad' as I thought it was but it's mostly /strange/ to me now. I haven't seen a log or anything of the second incident so I can't say for sure.

[Nergal]

You're getting bad information second-hand from someone with a habit of stirring the pot out-of-game - a habit I thought we had worked past and rebuilt trust over, but apparently not - and believing it blindly, which is how conflicts like this tend to start in the first place.

Please just stop. You are dragging down the level of the conversation and bringing the thread closer to locking.

[bardlyone]

I definitely did not say that to the player and a cursory inspection of my response to the player will reveal that, should the player wish to re-read that.

Now, I've blacked out the rest of the request and anything else that could reveal much of anything, but I'm very curious how you could say that you did not say that, when you said that exactly.

[Jihelu]

Someone messaged me saying they were harassed ic/by staff and showed me a log showing it, found my self more confused than anything because of how the animation was, and posted about it.
If that gets the thread locked, how can we talk about anything?

[Akaramu]

"over something that your average Allanaki would experience quite regularly if they acted and dressed like " From Nergal.

Are you familiar with Allanaki culture, Jihelu? The women wear long skirts and long sleeves. They don't show leg or cleavage, and look down on northern women who do. One of my PCs from about 10 years or so ago got a similar reaction (without the robbing) in the trader's inn because my PC was wearing a skimpy northern dress. However, she was aware she bought the wrong dress, and after the NPC, ran off flustered to change into something more appropriate. I thought the NPC animation was realistic.

""The character her self wore jewerly made of rubies, the cheaper ones, and I'm not seeing where "These silky wench" insults are really coming from. Though that's mostly subjective.""

There are NO cheap rubies in Zalanthas. They all sell for like 200 coins each, which is a small fortune for a lot of people in the south. And yes, a character without social status, who was flaunting both their legs and their expensive jewelry, would get negative attention.

My commoners never wear silk or expensive jewelry for that reason. It's a culture thing. I'm glad the world's culture setting is being enforced. I don't get why anyone is upset about it.


I hope we can go back to legitimate issues now because this is a massive derail.

[SuchDragonWow]

I feel I should publicly apologize to sleepyhead for making their case in the open.  I hadn't talked to you since that time, and it wasn't my business to bring it up here in public.  We both know there's more to that story that absolutely doesn't belong here, and I did my best to keep it trim to the concern I had, and perhaps wrongly assumed, others would have, too.

Going a step further, I think after reading Jihelu's post, I can see how it probably wouldn't be helpful to roll out vague information, but there's a specific post Nergal made pertaining to it only a little more than a month ago.

I'm happy to see people come forward, and talk this out like adults.  I'm not as pleased that I more or less threw sleepyhead under the bus.  Again, sorry.

grammatical edit

[Nergal]

Bardlyone, you blacked out the context of the request response and cherry-picked a portion of a sentence. As reasonable as it would be for me to post the context for you, I am not going to. It suffices to say that the context of the request accurately explains staff's position was focused on Allanaki culture, not your character's equipment.

Reflect on what happened in-game - I was not animating at the time, simply speaking up for the staff member who did. If it still bugs you, put in a request for clarification instead of spreading logs and lies to other players.

[LauraMars]

[sleepyhead]

I feel I should publicly apologize to sleepyhead, for making their case in the open.  I hadn't talked to you since that time, and it wasn't my business to bring it up here in public.  We both know there's more to that story that absolutely doesn't belong here, and I did my best to keep it trim to the concern I had, and perhaps wrongly assumed, others would have, too.

Going a step further, I think after reading Jihelu's post, I can see how it probably wouldn't be helpful to roll out vague information, but there's a specific post Nergal made pertaining to it only a little more than a month ago.

I'm happy to see people come forward, and talk this out like adults.  I'm less pleased that I more or less threw sleepyhead under the bus.  Again, sorry.

It's okay (as far as I am concerned). I did the same thing before without thinking when I was upset about the incident. I hope no one was negatively affected, and if they were, I'm sorry if I've contributed.

[SuchDragonWow]

Reflect on what happened in-game - I was not animating at the time, simply speaking up for the staff member who did. If it still bugs you, put in a request for clarification instead of spreading logs and lies to other players.

Nergal, I just want to point out that the bold portion of this quote could be entirely left out, and it conveys a much more helpful message.

[Jihelu]

We all need to simmer down from 13.5 out of 10 to atleast a 6 and a half.

[Lizzie]

I might've been there during some of this stuff with BardlyOne's character. I wasn't involved - but I think I was logged in with my PC and either heard about it ICly or saw bits of it from nearby? Either way - yeah definitely BO is cherry-picking. This was definitely about the culture's fashion choices vs. her choices. Her character was dressed inappropriately for a) a southerner and b) a southerner hanging out in the cockroach-infested roasting pits of the Gaj.

I've had characters dressed inappropriately for it too and I fully expect my characters to be chastized, or at least made fun of, for it. Sometimes they are. Sometimes not. But I don't think I can imagine EVER being personally upset when I know damned well that my character's choices are not adhering to the cultural norms with regards to clothing and jewelry.

And whoever said there's no such thing as a cheap ruby - damned straight. Rubies are precious gems in the game. So are emeralds and diamonds. If you wear them in the Gaj, don't be surprised if you get ribbed about it ICly. You probably won't, but don't be surprised if you do.

[Wystan]

We're a few pages past these quotes now, but I still wanted to respond to them.

I hope everything said so far is considered going forward.

Speaking for myself, I've read every post in this thread and have taken them seriously.

I don't know man, just say we will do better, don't dismiss people's complaints out of hand, and I'll be happy and quiet.

We do want to do better and we want players to feel complaints are given a fair hearing. I think the best way to achieve this in the current system is for staff to actively hold each other accountable. I know that answer isn't reassuring to some players. That's understandable. However, as Dar says, making the complaint process more transparent is complicated and can easily become more harmful than helpful.

The problem of incomplete information is a big one. From what I've seen, I feel several complainants would have been satisfied (or would have accepted their culpability) if they had access to all information relevant to their case. However, providing a player with all relevant information often compromises the privacy or IC play of another player.

Compromising the privacy or IC play of other players sucks. It's difficult to conceive of improved systems not involving this. What are your opinions?

[sleepyhead]

Great to hear from you, Wystan. How well would you say lower staff can hold producers accountable? I'm not asking this looking for a specific answer, nor am I asking this based on the problems I've had with a Producer in the past. I'm just curious as to what checks and balances may exist (outside of the system for staff complaints against a Producer, which I'm already aware of)

[BadSkeelz]

Reflect on what happened in-game - I was not animating at the time, simply speaking up for the staff member who did. If it still bugs you, put in a request for clarification instead of spreading logs and lies to other players.

Nergal, I just want to point out that the bold portion of this quote could be entirely left out, and it conveys a much more helpful message.

I dunno, I think Nergal might have a point in this case. Sometimes you have to call it for what it is. Especially when future damages are on the line. Spreading disinformation is immensely harmful to discussions. It's not always consciously done, either, if you get too wrapped up in your interpretation of events.

The only way we'd know for sure who's being untruthful would be for the full records to be posted. And I don't really want to ask that because I don't really care.

[Nergal]

Reflect on what happened in-game - I was not animating at the time, simply speaking up for the staff member who did. If it still bugs you, put in a request for clarification instead of spreading logs and lies to other players.

Nergal, I just want to point out that the bold portion of this quote could be entirely left out, and it conveys a much more helpful message.

If a player is lying, I will call it lying. It taints the discussion because it is extremely easy to lie about a situation when staff cannot and will not drop the hammer in the form of full context on the situation. It also tears apart player-staff trust, which is what the thread is about. When players lie about their experiences with staff to other players to gin up out-of-game conflict, how can there be any reasonable discussion on how staff interact with players?

It's important to keep an open mind, but not so open that you accept bullshit as a truth.

[wizturbo]

This thread is becoming a dumpster fire.

Some posters want to air their grievances or felt heard.  So, they post their interpretation of events to try and make their grievances seem as dramatic and eye popping as possible.  Staff are handcuffed by policy and can't refute these claims with facts.  Nothing good can come from this.

Guess what?  Even if they choose to post facts, the 'wronged' party is not going to accept that.  They're going to say there's more to the story.  There is no resolution that works in the public eye. 

The only resolution that works is if players reach out to staff and talk out the problem one on one.  And even that is handcuffed by the request tool being the WORST medium of resolving differences, because they leave no room for any of the normal social signals we rely on to feel better about things like tone of voice, facial features, etc. and its a platform that's completely controlled by staff.  They decide when the 'request is resolved', they decide when to respond and who else gets to see it...etc....

In short, I don't see these differences being resolved anytime soon.  So I don't see the point of this thread.

[Akaramu]

The problem of incomplete information is a big one. From what I've seen, I feel several complainants would have been satisfied (or would have accepted their culpability) if they had access to all information relevant to their case. However, providing a player with all relevant information often compromises the privacy or IC play of another player.

Compromising the privacy or IC play of other players sucks. It's difficult to conceive of improved systems not involving this. What are your opinions?

Can staff ever be sure they have ALL the relevant information, though?

It has been my experience that staff pays close attention to character reports and won't necessarily verify logs of what happened ingame if the information provided by all involved players seems sufficient. It has also been my experience that established clan PCs, who are more 'valuable' to the clan and run more plots, are considered more... believable? Is that the right word? Than a newer PC who runs fewer plots.

Let's say (hypothetical situation) players A and B are in a clan together and have been for a while. Their plots are many and awesome. They're also friends out of game, something staff isn't aware of.

Player C joins much later, and catches player A acting against clan documentation.

Player A denies this.
Player B, because they are A's OOC friend, says player C is lying.
Player C gets told to stop making things up.

The waters get even more murky when the effects of inappropriate behavior aren't immediately visible or noticeable ingame. For instance...

Players A and B are OOC friends and have an OOC beef with player C. They both report an IC reason for why they want to kill player C, something that never actually happened.

Player C gets PKed and doesn't know why. Staff believes they know the reason, but the ingame logs aren't checked. The fact that event X, the IC reason for the PK, never happened, remains shrouded in mystery.

I'm aware that sifting through ingame logs to verify stuff is immensely time-consuming and I don't have any solution. But stuff like the above can and does happen.

Which is why I support a less punitive approach, where players are given the benefit of the doubt more often, overall.

[BadSkeelz]

If you submit logs with your reports of anti-documentation behavior (I also try to give approximate timestamps) that would probably help.

[BadSkeelz]

Although my preferred solution to (perceived) bad behavior in game is to just PK the character responsible. Then the only report you have to make to staff is a PK report.

[sleepyhead]

I don't think I've tried to be overly dramatic or eye popping.

But anyway, wizturbo, if you think the request tool is the worst method for resolving these kinds of conflicts, maybe you could steer this dumpster fire of a thread towards possible alternatives that might nurture more positive outcomes.

[Akaramu]

If you submit logs with your reports of anti-documentation behavior (I also try to give approximate timestamps) that would probably help.

True, my first example could have been easily resolved. I should have come up with a better one. 

Just sayin', staff don't always know everything.