Staff, I want an open dialogue.

[Riev]

What about the cases I've read where people get too powerful ic, whether that be red robes or some other sort of power.
Is it against the rules to achieve power, there for stored?

That being said those situations are ones I've read about so I've never seen it done.
So I shouldn't worry about it right?
Till it possibly happens to me

That is backwards. People don't get force-stored because they reach red-robe or senior noble or equivalent status. They express a desire to store, and the promotion becomes the reason for their disappearing from the game, assuming that the PC had earned it. It's the sponsored role equivalent of "Amos transferred to another unit".

Historically this isn't 100% accurate. Some have been told (in less than cordial terms) that "If you continue this path, you'll be promoted, and players cannot be Red Robes/High Templars/etc." Which, yes, is an option, but it sounds more like "You want to follow your characters path, but at a certain point your character will be beyond the play of you, as a player, so you're stored".

Its less "You asked for this" and more "You didn't prevent this"

[Jihelu]

Well, that kinda sucks even more.

As he said historically I'm going to assume this isn't the case most of the time, or atleast hope so, but I'd hate to be playing a Templar well and get a message saying "Hey you should be careful or you'll get promoted which means killed" In the 'I can't play this character' again sense.

I'm not a fan of the 'too powerful to play' mentality but that isn't what this thread is about so I'll refrain from mentioning it again.

[Nergal]

What about the cases I've read where people get too powerful ic, whether that be red robes or some other sort of power.
Is it against the rules to achieve power, there for stored?

That being said those situations are ones I've read about so I've never seen it done.
So I shouldn't worry about it right?
Till it possibly happens to me

That is backwards. People don't get force-stored because they reach red-robe or senior noble or equivalent status. They express a desire to store, and the promotion becomes the reason for their disappearing from the game, assuming that the PC had earned it. It's the sponsored role equivalent of "Amos transferred to another unit".

Historically this isn't 100% accurate. Some have been told (in less than cordial terms) that "If you continue this path, you'll be promoted, and players cannot be Red Robes/High Templars/etc." Which, yes, is an option, but it sounds more like "You want to follow your characters path, but at a certain point your character will be beyond the play of you, as a player, so you're stored".

Its less "You asked for this" and more "You didn't prevent this"

The one instance I can think of that happening, it was a case of a humanoid PC following a path that would result in them no longer being humanoid - and thus unplayable. And yes, it's another of those instances where I didn't want to say anything before to prevent speculation on "no longer humanoid" but now suddenly have to.

[Jihelu]

I'm guessing you're talking about half/full elemental?*

Is that even sensitive information? It hints/mentions it on the old site. About 'becoming one' or whatever the quote says

Then again I guess it's mentioned on the old site and I'd be more inclined to be mad if it was mentioned on the newer docs, especially if it didn't say "hey maybe becoming an elemental being is a bad idea (get storerinod)"


*If it's not OH BOYYYYYYYYY thats some juicy lore stuff.
In which case I can see why you wouldn't mention it.

[Delirium]

I'd like to point out something that we might be losing sight of in all this sound and fury.

Players and staff have always had arguments like these. In fact, abuse was a lot more rampant Back In The Day.

Yes, a lot more Cool Stuff happened - but it often led nowhere, or was fairly arbitrary - and led to a lot of complaints while it was happening. It's only looking back, through rose colored lenses, that those days are looked on with so much fondness.

While I'm not a fan of cumbersome bureaucracy and red tape, and while the system we may have now is not perfect, and should absolutely continue to be evaluated and adjusted as time goes on - perhaps even loosened up some! - things are better.

MUCH better. It is far easier to hold people (including staff) accountable these days.

You can actually have a dialogue with staff - you can send in reports and have records of them - dude, I remember the days of sending in emails never getting a response whatsoever, or even a "read report"! Of losing plots entirely because of that.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that while things may not be perfect let's remember they were never perfect.

There was a free and loose sort of fun anarchy to "ye olden days", but let's not forget the downsides in our nostalgia for the upsides. It's funny really, as time passes, the annoyances get forgotten and the fun memories remain, and vice versa.

Disagreements happen and staff can make mistakes just as players do - and both sides should own up to it when they do. However, your approach matters. If you're angry, bitter, if you're unwilling to compromise, nothing good will come of it.

[Riev]

I'm guessing you're talking about half/full elemental?*

If its the situation I'm thinking of, no, and that one... while the player was massively upset, I can understand the reasoning behind it. Even the player eventually got over it and understood, they just disliked that their attraction to someone's RP (despite them being a "baddie") was what got them there.

Things HAVE gotten better with "lateral" moves and such for Templars. Coming up with things you are the "go to" guy for is a great help, but there's only so much "You come to me if you want to do any... property purchases!" before it gets a bit redundant. Qynar in Tuluk was a start, but there wasn't enough care, competition, or short-term noticeable change (man though, Red Sun Commons. So good).

I just wanted to point out the "You aren't stored BECAUSE you're a Red Robe. You're stored because players cannot PLAY Red Robes" idea. In the past, it was never put forward as a "If you continue to do this, we will have to store you because at that level, we don't allow Players to represent the character". In my limited experience, its more of a "okay if that's what you want, here are the consquences; storage".

[Jihelu]

""okay if that's what you want, here are the consquences; storage"."
Which I think is kinda poopy. I can't think of a single game that hurts you for becoming strong.
It is what it is I guess....



I'd like to know what Nergal meant, and Riev mentioned last page, about players policing* the staff.
Since we apparently can't air dirty laundry, do we just go on the forums and say "Staff was mean to me" and get told "uh no they actually weren't"

It seems this thread has been a lot of
"Staff does this"

"But they don't"

"Well I didn't want to hurt anyones feelings but here's this ONE TIME where it happened differently look at what you made me do, exposing such a thing"


*Keeping staff honest, policing, same thing probably.

Idk
I feel like Nergal has been lowkey rude this entire time but I think it's more just of his typing style. I think it's just the dirty laundry comment.
It's in the same way I feel people think I'm highkey rude all the time but I'm only trying to be shittily funny ;.;

[Nergal]

Players can hold staff accountable through staff complaints, through posting in threads like this one, through writing reviews on MUD listings, and probably other ways I can't really think of right now.

I'm not sure how my posts read as rude. I'm trying to hold a dialogue with players. If players would generally prefer that I stop trying to talk to players and address their concerns then I will stop.

[Jihelu]

So our ways of keeping staff honest are telling staff privately.
Posting in this thread where you may stop posting in.
Or writing reviews that let the game die.




This isn't very good.

[Nergal]

Staff complaints generate discussion staff-side on behavior and can spark change in how staff does things if something a staff member did was truly wrong.

I'll stop posting in the thread if players want me to. I get the sense from having to consistently reiterate what I'm saying that my presence here is not helpful. I would rather continue to post if players want to continue the discussion.

Reviews on anything help publicize an issue, and I recommend writing a negative review of the game if you think it deserves one. I would suggest exhausting all other options first, of course, but I'm not going to lie and say it's not an option aggrieved players have. (I recommend writing a positive review of the game if you think it deserves one, too.)

[Jihelu]

Not posting is definitely not going to help anything.
Outside of that I'm finding that I'm more or less starting to repeat my self because no one's replies are changing.

I'd like to know about Reiloth's situation. Is it up to him whether he posts about it or not? Is it against the rules for him to post what happened?
If it is, I'm completely fine with him not posting about it in specifics if he doesn't want to.
If he isn't allowed to, I think people knowing about situations akin to his or his in general would be needed/nifty/useful.

[Nergal]

It's not specifically against the rules to post about a discussion between players and staff, though such a post can be against rule #2 and/or #5 depending on the content of the post and how it is edited. http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51856.0.html

Understand that if specifics on a situation are discussed, staff will take that as an invitation to reply in-kind.

[Jihelu]

"5. Do not post sensitive game information, including information about your character, other characters, plots, or magick/psionic mechanics."

So he could post about in the -whatever- as long as it doesn't directly relate IC?
Meaning back and forths and what not, if I'm reading this right.


So if me and Nergal started arguing in request tool about my character, I would not be able to post anything that IS about my character but IS about us going back and forth.

Is this correct?

[Malken]

I kind of feel bad for you, Nergal, because you're the only Staff member (aside from two new ones who I had never heard about before they posted here) actually speaking with the plebs. And to be honest, even though you hold the title of Producer, I don't think you matter much in the grand scheme of things compared to Nessalin and Adhira, who, in my honest opinion, probably could go against 3/4 of the rest of the Staff and apply whatever set of rules they want without asking the rest of the staff members what they think about it and no one could do anything about it.

Before you it was Nyr who held that role.

I also want to see Reiloth's situation exposed - if he was truly called a liar for exposing his side of the story, then this is pretty bad. If he was exaggerating, then chances are that most other people saying they have truly bad experiences with Staff in the last year or so are also exaggerating.

Otherwise, I'll think it's just BS as usual from both sides and that this thread will eventually die out and nothing will have changed.

[Delirium]

My last final stab at this thread...

Negativity breeds negativity. See also: sneaky hate spiral.

I'm out. The game is so much more fun without the GDB.

[Malken]

I'm out. The game is so much more fun without the GDB.

Stop saying things like that - with all due respect, nobody cares. Reiloth was posting on how amazing the game was prior to having a bad experience with staff and then proceeded to swear that he was gone for good and changed his pwd to make sure of it. Then he pops back into this thread just a few days later.

You're 'out' of the GDB or this thread until you also have your next bad experience with Staff and then you'll probably share your complaint with us like the rest of these posters are currently doing - you just don't have any -recent- bad experiences to speak of so it's easy to come and preach to the posters here how we should act for the greater good of the game.

You, like most of us, had tantrums on the GDB and while you may currently have learned how to deal with it, you're just a bad experience away from your next GDB tantrum.

Said with peace and love because I have absolutely nothing against you but I know how the human mind works

[Lutagar]

this is why sponsored roles are the best

[Armaddict]

I'm not sure how my posts read as rude. I'm trying to hold a dialogue with players. If players would generally prefer that I stop trying to talk to players and address their concerns then I will stop.

I don't envy you.  My posts/communiques also come off as far more aggressive than I want them to, which has led to things between me and staff before. I'm trying to contribute in ways that are not witch-hunty, which is likely how this feels about now.  Mostly, I think it would be very healthy to drop a nod of public acknowledgement and a public 'press conference' post that is not about defending staff position, but explaining the current ethos for it and why it can be abrasive. Issue simple apologies in private to those who you think you may have given the perception that they were slighted, but don't invite them being able to bully you; anyone who wants to bully staff is a problem, but those who want to reconcile and reach common ground are not.  Undo some long-term or permanent bans that are based on GDB behavior.  The GDB, for what it is, does not need to be people with matching ideologies or perspectives, and if people get pissed off at each other, that's a-ok.  We all need thicker skin, not a staff team that coddles us like a big brother on discussion forums.  All other forms of moderation I consider fine and necessary (i.e. Keeping discussions on topic, removing outright flame posts with a message why but not necessarily a ban so much as a public acknowledgement/shaming [Removed Armaddict's post for baiting and flaming staff], IC info, etc etc etc).

Then consider something new.  If the big deal here is transparency, and we're having issues with jcarter's forum because of what purpose it serves for players vs what some of those players use it for where it is harmful for the game, you could consider a player-run subforum that requires approval from a player-elected player before the posts show up, one topic for each staffer, and it's a public review forum for staffers to know how they're being perceived.  --  There should be no staff replies in this thread, but they can open up request-tool dialogues with posters to resolve issues, leading to edits and additions.
Edit:  Note, this would be an awesome way to remove staff kudos from the request tool and have it become public instead.

That's a weird one, but I'm not pushing for it.  I'm saying we should emphasize a change that addresses concerns that are brought up consistently, but balance it between the needs of both sides.  The request tool, while nice, is just a crappy medium for a lot of people at this point, and maintaining privacy seems to be increasing unrest and removing discourse rather than promoting it.

[Jihelu]

This was sent to me a by a user on the forums, I've heavily edited things to remove information of current pcs. I'm also going to vague the fuck out of the first 'situation' as pc's may have been there, but not so much that it becomes hard to follow.
If this is true, which I see now reason for them to lie, this is heavily fucked up.


"I was (Shadowboard username). It was ironically, (Ex admin) the storyteller, along with another storyteller erasing the entire content of a post I made and actively mocking me which led me to the shadow forums, the complete stripping of my karma and the subsequent ban. I still get my posts deleted when I post a picture of who I am in the player photos thread. And there's places where it's responded to by others that haven't been deleted, a silent testament to the formerly existing post. That said, I want badly to respond to the dialogue thread, but know it will be deleted again, no surprise, and I would likely be banned again, no surprise. Here's a few of the things that've happened to me in the past six months. These are less than a year old so I can't post them, of COURSE.

Staff animated an npc that demanded a necklace from my character and called her a whore an extreme amount of times. When other pcs came to the rescue soldiers were animated to say they didn't give a fuck. This was followed by an animated of a bartender to tell me I was fucking a pc in the roastpits and to talk about about how she was dressed. My character wore only leather and cotton which covered her from chin to ankle, wrist to wrist. When I put in a complaint about it, Nergal told me she should have expected that response due to how she was dressed (covered chin to ankle) and how she was acting (only pc she'd been intimate with was her current mate as she was actually a rape victim from her bio and they were in a committed monogamous relationship).

Then, on my very NEXT pc, I had an npc byn sergeant animated to come into the latrines and tell my female pc to suck his cock as that was all she was good for. She pointed him toward a pc in the unit who was actually whoring on the side but male, and was told, and I quote 'You're all whores'."


If any part of this contained relevant ic info feel free to edit it.
If I wind up banned or something that'd be rather inconvenient so pls no.
Seeing as I removed all references of names from the first situation outside of pcs that may have been there, and if the first situation is removed for that reason that's a okay with me, there shouldn't be any sensitive info there.
The second part is pretty straight forward and seeing as it only includes a staff animation and a pc that is now dead/stored I don't see how that could be considered sensitive.
If anything, this all seems kinda sexist/anti-zalanthiasish.

[Nergal]

This was sent to me a by a user on the forums, I've heavily edited things to remove information of current pcs. I'm also going to vague the fuck out of the first 'situation' as pc's may have been there, but not so much that it becomes hard to follow.
If this is true, which I see now reason for them to lie, this is heavily fucked up.


"I was (Shadowboard username). It was ironically, (Ex admin) the storyteller, along with another storyteller erasing the entire content of a post I made and actively mocking me which led me to the shadow forums, the complete stripping of my karma and the subsequent ban. I still get my posts deleted when I post a picture of who I am in the player photos thread. And there's places where it's responded to by others that haven't been deleted, a silent testament to the formerly existing post. That said, I want badly to respond to the dialogue thread, but know it will be deleted again, no surprise, and I would likely be banned again, no surprise. Here's a few of the things that've happened to me in the past six months. These are less than a year old so I can't post them, of COURSE.

Staff animated an npc that demanded a necklace from my character and called her a whore an extreme amount of times. When other pcs came to the rescue soldiers were animated to say they didn't give a fuck. This was followed by an animated of a bartender to tell me I was fucking a pc in the roastpits and to talk about about how she was dressed. My character wore only leather and cotton which covered her from chin to ankle, wrist to wrist. When I put in a complaint about it, Nergal told me she should have expected that response due to how she was dressed (covered chin to ankle) and how she was acting (only pc she'd been intimate with was her current mate as she was actually a rape victim from her bio and they were in a committed monogamous relationship).

Then, on my very NEXT pc, I had an npc byn sergeant animated to come into the latrines and tell my female pc to suck his cock as that was all she was good for. She pointed him toward a pc in the unit who was actually whoring on the side but male, and was told, and I quote 'You're all whores'."


If any part of this contained relevant ic info feel free to edit it.
If I wind up banned or something that'd be rather inconvenient so pls no.
Seeing as I removed all references of names from the first situation outside of pcs that may have been there, and if the first situation is removed for that reason that's a okay with me, there shouldn't be any sensitive info there.
The second part is pretty straight forward and seeing as it only includes a staff animation and a pc that is now dead/stored I don't see how that could be considered sensitive.
If anything, this all seems kinda sexist/anti-zalanthiasish.

Wow. I am not even sure where to begin with that. Considering that I have pushed gender equality pretty heavily on the GDB and through animations in-game I'm disappointed that I'd be accused of sexist behavior.

I am familiar with who sent you that PM because I'm familiar with that narrative when it was sent in as a request. But that is not an accurate description of what happened at all. I'm not going to embarrass the player by reiterating what they were told via request, but I definitely did not say that to the player and a cursory inspection of my response to the player will reveal that, should the player wish to re-read that.

It should suffice to say that staff absolutely do not engage in sexist behavior in-game.

[Malken]

Just from the way it is written, there's no way I can take Jihelu's posted 'example' seriously.

That kind of post is why it'll be hard to take future examples more seriously.

I mean, come on.

[Riev]

It doesn't seem like it targeted YOU, Nergal. And, tongue in cheek, I don't believe any staff would purposefully come in and be an asshole like that, specifically because staff animations don't tend to come in the form of NPCs anymore, if ever at all.

What is more likely (IF STAFF WERE INVOLVED) is that they created a new regular PC to fuck with another player, outside of their multi-login.

Its still shitty behavior, and its nice to see soldiers "not caring" but I've seen soldiers care a whole lot about lesser problems.

[sleepyhead]

I don't think the story rings true at all. That is my totally uninformed opinion, which of course has no gravity because I know nothing about the situation.

I guess the only reason I'm saying this is so that people don't think all people who complain about staff interactions are willing to grasp at any possible straw or story to demonize staff.

[AdamBlue]

Well, now I'm damnably curious. What exactly went down? That's a pretty hefty thing to set aside as 'nonsense' and only give a vague 'that is not how it happened' and expect people to be sated with. I mean, I understand respecting the person's privacy, but this is a legitimately vitrol-packed indiction, my dude.

Some more details would allow for a better sifter so that we can tell the spice from the stones, you dig?

[Lutagar]

It's hard to believe that a NPC would be animated for the specific purpose of browbeating a PC into surrendering their necklace unless it was made from metal or actually a templar's medallion. If there isn't more to this story that was deliberately left out then I'd be very disappointed.