Cyberpunk & Armageddon

[Riev]

But to believe that you will ever have a non-sponsored Highborn whose death will rally ANY of the masses is kind of pie in the sky.

The point of the oppressive world is that no single "Commoner"-type PC will be influential enough to cause such a shift. If you're rich and popular? You become a GMH Merchant, and no matter how many PCs like you, the NPC population won't give a shit if you live or die.

The Allanak populace will never see a PC as a 'hero', especially the commoners. If you get to that point, you're rich and famous and they hate you as much as they hate the Templarate. And, at that point, the Templarate probably hates YOU for being so popular and trying to rally the underlings.



Its a GREAT idea, to think that you could matter. That you could get some Oashi Noble to like you enough that your constant raiding and trouble-making doesn't cause enough of a bother for them to kill you. But eventually, someone will offer that Oashi like 20,000 coins and suddenly who cares if you die? Or, they'll just kill you and let the JUNIOR NOBLE cry like a baby. Because no PC would ever get to the point of having a SENIOR Noble's attention.

Its how the game is designed. You, as a PC, are NOT going to reach a position of power where the game world's NPC Population will really react to you. Its happened before, and its caused a massive drain on staff resources, and its been decided that if you are "in that kind of position" that you should be stored because of your potential to alter the landscape. Red Robes, Senior Nobility, etc... they were taken away so we DON'T have that kind of power, so we CAN play the low-down punk-roles. Its just that, as a game, we tend to not be poor and dogged for long, due to economy and playtime.

[Miradus]

So the proposal then ...

Expand the dungeons.

Every time I've been thrown into jail it's been 2 hours of sitting there in the dark with nobody to talk to.

The dungeons should be a game experience too. When a Templar wants to kill someone, they probably ought get approval for it too (or get a minor handslapping from their superiors if they fail). So instead of outright murder-by-halfgiant ... you're thrown into the dungeon. Where you would (in theory) be able to interact with other pc's who are also in the dungeon.

If you had people to interact with in the dungeon then it wouldn't be such a boring experience. Nobody would decide to just store that dungeon character and start a new one rather than wait it out. If the dungeon population turns out to never be sufficient for fun then give players in the dungeon and option to store and play someone else until such time as a potential "revival" comes.

It would also give the Templars a chance to recall older characters. Blue Templar says to Red, "Hey, remember that guy who tried to assassinate ol' Lord Hufflepuff? He almost pulled it off. I think he's still kicking around down in the dungeon. Why don't we go see if he's willing to work for us yet or if he needs another year or two down there to soften him up?"

I can't see any downside to expanding the dungeon experience in-game. If it's a matter of resource-to-player ratio then I'll write up a 12 room dungeon for you and you can just cut-and-paste into the zone. I see nothing wrong with being thrown into the dark room for failing a pickpocket or something but it could end up being a holding cell where more dastardly (or useful) prisoners could then be transferred to the dungeon proper.

It would also clear the path for some crimcode work later on down the road. Open up some other options for people instead of just being outright code-murdered by teleporting half giants.

[Riev]

For the MOST PART I don't get insta-gibbed by Half-Giants on the rare occasions I'm playing a thiefly character. However I do agree, that when you DO get caught, its half an hour of "well what else can I do" and hoping a PC isn't online to threaten to kill you for doing what a pretty decent portion of the city resorts to.

I have also seen, in the snake-days, a single half-giant patroller turn into a group of 5 summoned soldiers to kill. If that happened to me as a PC, I'd be outright furious. I'd RATHER be in the half-hour jail, but I also agree that the jails need a bit more. An NPC with a discuss script, or a 'group' cell with some different room echoes. Something more, something better.

[Miradus]

Its how the game is designed. You, as a PC, are NOT going to reach a position ...

The struggle matters more than the success.

But if that rather pessimistic view is the reality, then it just pours concrete over the entire setting.

I've never had a character who mattered really. But I have liked to think that if I lived maybe a RL year (10 character years) then maybe they'd start to matter. If I had a character who lived 3 RL years and aged 30 years in game interacting with other people, rising to lead an organization, etc? Then I would expect to see some fluidity in the game setting based on my actions. 3 RL years is a sizable investment in a character to not have any lasting impact.

I hope you're wrong, Riev, but if you're not then it's a real problem with Armageddon. I play this game for the OPPORTUNITY, which was its main draw. Heck, didn't it even used to be in the slogan?

[Riev]

My comments were meant to kind of come out neutral.

The point was supposed to be that if you EVER think, OOCly, that your common-blooded PC will EVER EVER EVER reach a position of actually effecting change, you will be stored. Its happened before, and it would happen again. It takes a long time to get there, and staff actively try to give you lateral promotions and movements to mitigate the possibility.

The struggle to get there is great fun, absolutely. But its a smack in the face when you HAVE lived for a RL year on the same PC, being relatively active and known, only to realize that you can achieve nothing. You cannot "own property", you cannot "build a defensible little Outpost or Farm". They are great to strive for, but frankly I am playing a game. The struggle is only worthwhile if the ends are POSSIBLE. Why struggle to become a Hlum-Noble in Tuluk, and marry into a 'real' Noble House, only to be told "You may have to be stored if you continue because your actions could cause considerable rammifications".?

And no, opportunity has never been in the slogan. Your only opportunity is to 'try' to achieve goals, the majority of which you'll never reach for gameplay and staff-resource reasons. I don't mean to say "Arm sucks don't try" but I also like to caution people that "there's CERTAINLY a concrete ceiling PCs aren't meant to pass". If you want the low-fantasy, punk-like feel, we have it. Because you will NEVER be the hero. We are, the lot of us, background characters. The "Heroes" in Zalanthas are virtual. Out there, killing mekillots in their elite hunting groups, exploring virtual caves that end in epic fights with demi-sorcerors. We play the hapless adventurers who mistaken stumble on the cave, get scared out, and then the virtual Templarate employs their Virtual Heroes to investigate.

[nauta]

The struggle to get there is great fun, absolutely. But its a smack in the face when you HAVE lived for a RL year on the same PC, being relatively active and known, only to realize that you can achieve nothing. You cannot "own property", you cannot "build a defensible little Outpost or Farm". They are great to strive for, but frankly I am playing a game. The struggle is only worthwhile if the ends are POSSIBLE. Why struggle to become a Hlum-Noble in Tuluk, and marry into a 'real' Noble House, only to be told "You may have to be stored if you continue because your actions could cause considerable rammifications".?

I'd give the MMH process a shot.  There's opportunities there for some outside-the-box things (especially with criminal elements) over and above a warehouse -- a little stash spot in the rinth, for instance.  I would love to be able to pursue carving out hidey-holes in the desert as well with the same process for bandit groups or non-city-based organizations, but I'd like to think this is possible, if you set it out as a goal of your group in advance to staff.

[Miradus]

Riev, I hope you're wrong. I'll say it hasn't been my experience but I haven't really been a part of anything that could conceivably ever achieve anything. I'm starting to try to play that part of the game now and I hope that it's otherwise.

Because if I read that sort of review on a Steam product page, I definitely wouldn't buy that game.

[Lutagar]

It's cute that there's people in our community with unspoiled eyes. Preserve this innocence and let them think as they will, so I can savor the moments before witnessing their misplaced optimism get destroyed.

[Harmless]

i think it's pretty silly to think that a PC will never rise to the level of heeding NPC or vNPC respect. We have nobles, for one. For two, if >50% of the active players know your PC and react to them or their death, then it follows than at least 5% of the NPCs/vNPCs would also.

Just don't expect staff to bend over backwards to making that NPC/vNPC effect a coded reality.

[Riev]

Nauta IS right, the "MMH" system is more of a "custom clan" system that POTENTIALLY could allow these things, but the requirements could use some adjustments. Why would you, in the 'rinth, make a hidey-hole area that ISN'T the staff-backed clan with tons of virtual resources? Unless you were an elf, who keep -trying- to do that but get smacked down simply because, as an elf, they're seen as the enemy?

That's why I meant it to be more neutral. Its not meant to stave off newer players, but to remind them that there ARE restrictions before they end up like a number of veterans who "finally get it" and make a great PC only to get a hole in the heart when you can't do "all those things you imagined".

Just don't expect staff to bend over backwards to making that NPC/vNPC effect a coded reality.

Which is to say, if I read you right, "this can happen but you have to fucking imagine it".

[Miradus]

Just don't expect staff to bend over backwards to making that NPC/vNPC effect a coded reality.

I don't think staff is there to just say no all the time. They've got their own plans and visions for the game too, right? So in theory they're going to look around and go "hey, this guy over here is doing some stuff we could use to put in this change. Let's hook into what he's doing." And hopefully they'd do that instead of just spawning some vNPC Elminster character to put you on rails.

[Riev]

And hopefully they'd do that instead of just spawning some vNPC Elminster character to put you on rails.

There's always a conversation about railroaded plots vs player-run plots, and you'll never please everyone. But I think it'd sure be nice if, once in a while, there WAS a railroaded theme-park plot just to keep things fresh.

But yes, staff definitely "hook" into some players plots, if they're interesting enough. Some of us, however, feel that's more of a "we have to dance and sing to get the attention of staff to be interested in our menial lives" rather than "we're all playing this game together and we want to see ourselves succeed". The recent "tell us about your plots" incentive was a nice attempt, and hopefully it gets some traction, but not everyone feels they 'should have to impress staff' just to get their plots off the ground. If you gather 150 blocks of stone in a room, why do you need to wait 2 RL weeks for deliberation over whether you can 'set up a section of a wall' in that room?

[nauta]

Unless you were an elf, who keep -trying- to do that but get smacked down simply because, as an elf, they're seen as the enemy?

Yep, that's one spot you'd pursue it.  There's a lot more to the rinth, at least, than the Westside Guild (populated by PCs) and the Eastside Virtual Jaxa Pah.  Honestly, it just requires being up front with your staff, clear in your goals, and realistic in those goals as well.  Realism is a big deal: the Guild will smack you down if you try to get too big, and so too will the Jaxa Pah; but you can, in return, bribe them, and so on.  In the case of elves in particular, their documented distrust of BOTH non-elves and other elves outside their tribe makes establishing an Elf Power pretty difficult (and almost un-realistic).  (It also, I think, is probably part of the reason the Jaxa Pah is virtual still to this day.  Elf PCs tend to flock together and overlook the tests of trusts required for such an institution to flourish, much as gemmed PCs will flock together and overlook the hints in the documentations about Krathis disliking Vivaduans and so on.)

That said, it'd be realistic to make a bakery in the rinth, to form a gang of dwarfs and breeds down in the sewers, to have an outlaw group establishing a bar at the Mul Outpost, etc.  And to those ends if you pursue (via MMH) that goal, I think it is flexible enough to allow this -- at least in the rinth and Red Storm, and I'd hope staff would be flexible to allow it in the Mul Outpost too.

[nessalin]

So the proposal then ...

Expand the dungeons.

Every time I've been thrown into jail it's been 2 hours of sitting there in the dark with nobody to talk to.

The dungeons should be a game experience too. When a Templar wants to kill someone, they probably ought get approval for it too (or get a minor handslapping from their superiors if they fail). So instead of outright murder-by-halfgiant ... you're thrown into the dungeon. Where you would (in theory) be able to interact with other pc's who are also in the dungeon.

If you had people to interact with in the dungeon then it wouldn't be such a boring experience. Nobody would decide to just store that dungeon character and start a new one rather than wait it out. If the dungeon population turns out to never be sufficient for fun then give players in the dungeon and option to store and play someone else until such time as a potential "revival" comes.

It would also give the Templars a chance to recall older characters. Blue Templar says to Red, "Hey, remember that guy who tried to assassinate ol' Lord Hufflepuff? He almost pulled it off. I think he's still kicking around down in the dungeon. Why don't we go see if he's willing to work for us yet or if he needs another year or two down there to soften him up?"

I can't see any downside to expanding the dungeon experience in-game. If it's a matter of resource-to-player ratio then I'll write up a 12 room dungeon for you and you can just cut-and-paste into the zone. I see nothing wrong with being thrown into the dark room for failing a pickpocket or something but it could end up being a holding cell where more dastardly (or useful) prisoners could then be transferred to the dungeon proper.

It would also clear the path for some crimcode work later on down the road. Open up some other options for people instead of just being outright code-murdered by teleporting half giants.

Maybe tattoos you can only get in the dungeons.

[Miradus]

I don't know you well enough to know if you're mocking or not.

[Riev]

Or a particularly nasty looking guy who'll sell you a shank for like 400 coins.

Tattoos are legit a good idea.

I'm also for "escaping" if you use a bribe command and it meets or exceeds a random assignment based on your wanted level.

"I will give you 5000 coins right now if you let me out" - ... Mmm.. you're in here for assaulting a soldier. I'm going with "time to become an independently wealthy mercenary!"

[nessalin]

I don't know you well enough to know if you're mocking or not.

I wouldn't do that to a fellow sailor.

[Akaramu]

Sounds like a great idea, but I don't think we have the kind of active playerbase to support it. 

[Armaddict]

If you gather 150 blocks of stone in a room, why do you need to wait 2 RL weeks for deliberation over whether you can 'set up a section of a wall' in that room?

Because if it doesn't take 2 weeks then everyone involved is still alive.  Some time needs to pass so that it dies off naturally.

[wizturbo]

Imo, I'd love to see the karma cost of the new sorcerers lowered. They're no longer the unkillable, omnipotent, and uncatchable rockstars they once were, and it's an incredibly niche role that few would be able to play long enough to actually be dangerous before they get bored and do something dumb to die.

The OLD sorcerers were the ones that very, very few people could actually play long enough to become dangerous.  The news ones have LESS trouble surviving to reach that stage of power.

[Akaramu]

I was going to say it, but then wizturbo did and I didn't have to.

[Armaddict]

Huh.  Wasn't expecting that.

Why is that, or does that go too deep into nitty gritty details that I just have to learn for myself?

[Delirium]

Huh.  Wasn't expecting that.

Why is that, or does that go too deep into nitty gritty details that I just have to learn for myself?

You have a main guild. The magick is extra.

[Lutagar]

At least old sorcs could entertain themselves with PATH OF KNOWLEDGE spells while they'd grind away in their sekret caves.

The new sorcs might have a shorter wait before they can reliably antagonize, but it's going to feel much more tedious.

[nauta]

Gonna be that person and say: I'd rather not discover too much about the mechanics of sorcerers on the gdb.  Sorry!  It's one of the last areas of mystery for me, and I want to live with what the documentation tells me about them: that they are scary and dangerous.