Cyberpunk & Armageddon

[wizturbo]

I think there's big difference between not being the top of the food chain and being a "loser".  Even as a Templar there's always a bigger fish.  It's more the feel of vertical power growth in the game in my eyes.

[Rathustra]

If anything that article is an interesting reminder on how different people can find different things in the same genre, and media within that genre. The writer's emphasis on the social struggle of the downtrodden, for example, doesn't align with my own focus on the dehumanizing and culture-warping influence of unchecked power and the application of mechanical/systematized thinking to wider civilization. While exploring how the punks, the outcasts and the disenfranchised come to terms with a future that treats them entirely as commodities and consumers and subvert it is great and makes for the best stories (and I assume videogames), I'm personally more excited by the redefinition of humanity, the grotesque distortion of human wants and needs and the near-animus rampant capitalism is given by the complete breakdown of morality.

Which is a lot of pseudo-intellectual guff to say that it's handy to refocus sometimes and realize that there's lots of ways to approach even something like a science fiction genre.

As for how this article applies to Armageddon - seems pretty obvious from above but first off, hey - guess maybe different parts of the setting appeal to different people. Let's hit the feel-good 'broad church' box right out of the gates.

Next, I suppose a very direct application of the article could be - a lot of the cyberpunk genre's power comes from following those in the setting who are discarded by the prevalent systems, yet bend or 'hack' their meager lot to find their own power. City elves are a comparison that immediately comes to mind - they're not just tall humans with pointy ears - they're a different species with a perspective on the world that puts them at odds with the totalitarian society they exploit to survive. They hack, exploit and work against the unflinching, unyielding power that surrounds them every day - often being crushed into nothing - sometimes managing to come out on top.

Another classic trope that comes to mind while I'm riffing with the c-elf line of thinking - the 'tools of the corporations'. In Arm's case these are often the gemmers - detestable, disposable, often drawn into the clutches of a Templar's attention by misfortune or a desire to rise from the muck. They do their master's dirty work and will never receive praise or recognition for it.

Moving on, I think the article is also applicable to Armageddon in the sense that it speaks to a particular mindset that runs through the 'low-class' protagonists of what the author deems 'good' cyberpunk. The 'punk' in cyberpunk is counter-authority, anti-hero, a philosophy set against the monolithic corporations and the controlled society that they rule over. They're not -good- at all, Case in Neuromancer is an asshole, for example. They are just difficult, flawed characters who refuse to be cast as heroes or villains - who fail, fuck up and struggle with their flaws (real or impressed upon them by the societies they exist in) and don't necessarily get what they want in the end.

What does this look like in Armageddon? I'm going to cheat and say I think it will be different for everyone. Personally for me it means PCs with personalities that let me, as a player, act in ways that nurture the plots around me. If I'm a militia soldier, I'll have my PC take the bribe, or avoid certain patrol routes. If I'm a merchant I'll decide it's not worth my safety to report dodgy dealings my peers are doing.

[BrokenRomance]

I saw there was some talk about how modern gamers and stuff (or at least I think there was and will talk as if there was) tend towards cooperation.

I honestly am a modern gamer, and I prefer loners but for the life of me most of the time I can't find anywhere in the game where nobody is going to try and push me to cooperate with them as hunting partner, grebber, or something like that and honestly it makes it hard for me to get into the game especially since I recently took a hiatus.

I want to be that dirty, sweaty ranger that wants nothing from anyone but to be left alone. I want to be the one that vanishes into the wastes for days, and nobody really cares until they see them again and maybe they ask for a story of what the saw, because I think that is the most awesome, most amazing thing for me to play.

I find it to be impossible though. I don't know if people call themselves 'helping' me or what but I'm usually very heavily pressed to not be that person. To instead be House Hunter something or other, or employed grebber so and so, aide so and so. Shit like that.

For me, it gets hard to avoid being pushed to stop being the lower tier.

[Delirium]

How terrible, people want to interact with you in a multiplayer game!

Want to be alone? Play undesirables - mangy half-elves, mutilated uggos. Be an asshole. Actually disappear into the wastes and don't come into civilization. If you hang out where people are, chances are they're gonna want to hang out with you.

[Armaddict]

How terrible, people want to interact with you in a multiplayer game!

There's a far cry between what was said and what you said.  Having the equivalent of LFG members of the game is not the same as being in a multiplayer game, nor is playing someone self-oriented asking for a single player game.

The mentality of cooperation is -very- strong in Armageddon.  I haven't had to question the motives of a hunting proposal for a long time.

[Is Friday]

I haven't had to question the motives of a hunting proposal for a long time.

That probably has more to do with the fallibility of being a raider rather than anything else.

[BrokenRomance]

How terrible, people want to interact with you in a multiplayer game!

Want to be alone? Play undesirables - mangy half-elves, mutilated uggos. Be an asshole. Actually disappear into the wastes and don't come into civilization. If you hang out where people are, chances are they're gonna want to hang out with you.

A good dynamic RP game, is a game where you can do what you want to do with your character. Doesn't matter if it multiplayer, or some RPG.

If I want to play a loner, I should be allowed to. They shouldn't have to interact with Host Amos just because they want to enjoy a fucking drink at the bar.

[Armaddict]

I haven't had to question the motives of a hunting proposal for a long time.

That probably has more to do with the fallibility of being a raider rather than anything else.

I think that's only accurate in the spirit of avoiding accountability.  But picking out one part of that post that serves as an example of the rest in order to insist that it's all the game's fault is not a great argument either.

[Is Friday]

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment. But fixing the raiding problem would go a long way toward decreasing the "you must comply and be friends with everyone" mentality if you could get away with stuff.

[Armaddict]

Ah, I misunderstood what your intent/objective was then.  My bad, carry on!

[Delirium]

How terrible, people want to interact with you in a multiplayer game!

Want to be alone? Play undesirables - mangy half-elves, mutilated uggos. Be an asshole. Actually disappear into the wastes and don't come into civilization. If you hang out where people are, chances are they're gonna want to hang out with you.

A good dynamic RP game, is a game where you can do what you want to do with your character. Doesn't matter if it multiplayer, or some RPG.

If I want to play a loner, I should be allowed to. They shouldn't have to interact with Host Amos just because they want to enjoy a fucking drink at the bar.

You can play a loner... but part of playing a loner is telling those types of PCs to fuck off. I guess I don't see the problem.

p.s. I play loners too.

[Lutagar]

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment. But fixing the raiding problem would go a long way toward decreasing the "you must comply and be friends with everyone" mentality if you could get away with stuff.

The only way to fix this is with code that hides your mdesc. Once someone uses 'look' on you it's impossible to avoid accountability for whatever it is you're doing and the known will band together to stomp you down unless you're willing to play as a PC that lives in the sewers and never talks to anyone ever and only log in once every couple of months to antagonize a complete stranger.

[SuchDragonWow]

Hiding mdesc isn't the only way.  Another way is to take away the insta-gank potential of local law enforcement among the fringe settlements where outlaws are likely to hang out.  Currently, in this game, being an outlaw is a death sentence white-knighted and doubled-down with extravagant bounties that don't fit the proportion of the crime.  Make being an outlaw part of the culture of this game, and make it easier to commit crimes and get away with it.  This will open up a new badass and sustainable concept as well -- the bounty hunter.

[bcw81]

You know, I can't honestly remember anyone ever doing enough to receive a bounty placed on some raider/magicker/whatever in all my time playing this game. In my experience, when you get a bounty placed on your head it's because the majority of people who would go after you are absolutely terrified of going after you and therefore the only people who actually go after you are either completely unskilled and unfunded people or people looking to join you.

I'm sure this isn't true all the time, but as a person who did play an outlaw and did have a bounty on my head for a long time (I know, anecdotal evidence is evidence of nothing) it was absolutely hilarious to see the entire world trying to mobilize against me - and failing every single time.

They'd try to gather a raiding party? (sometimes upwards of 30 PCs)
75% of the time they'd get lost or go to the wrong location, 20% of the time we'd throw a tiny firework at them and they'd run home with their tails between their legs, and the last 5% of the time they actually made it to us and they died horribly.

You do not need to hide your identity to play an outlaw, you simply need to know what you're targeting and how to avoid those who protect what you're targeting. Fear and power outweigh stealth and being incognito any day. This is Armageddon. Go chop motherfuckers with bone swords.

[Jingo]

You know, I can't honestly remember anyone ever doing enough to receive a bounty placed on some raider/magicker/whatever in all my time playing this game. In my experience, when you get a bounty placed on your head it's because the majority of people who would go after you are absolutely terrified of going after you and therefore the only people who actually go after you are either completely unskilled and unfunded people or people looking to join you.

The real reason you don't see bounties is because the powers that be can reliably catch you in a tavern and march you off to your execution. If not, they can probably just throw magickers at you.

I'm sure this isn't true all the time, but as a person who did play an outlaw and did have a bounty on my head for a long time (I know, anecdotal evidence is evidence of nothing) it was absolutely hilarious to see the entire world trying to mobilize against me - and failing every single time.

They'd try to gather a raiding party? (sometimes upwards of 30 PCs)
75% of the time they'd get lost or go to the wrong location, 20% of the time we'd throw a tiny firework at them and they'd run home with their tails between their legs, and the last 5% of the time they actually made it to us and they died horribly.

Having played a handful of outlaws myself, I can safely say this isn't the case unless you have maxed out combat skills.

You do not need to hide your identity to play an outlaw, you simply need to know what you're targeting and how to avoid those who protect what you're targeting. Fear and power outweigh stealth and being incognito any day. This is Armageddon. Go chop motherfuckers with bone swords.

It sounds like good advice. But the reality is that you need to isolate yourself from the rest of the playerbase to play an outlaw. And you'll get fucked the first time you try to visit a tavern while starved for interaction.

[Akaramu]

It sounds like good advice. But the reality is that you need to isolate yourself from the rest of the playerbase to play an outlaw. And you'll get fucked the first time you try to visit a tavern while starved for interaction.

Not if you have a templar worth their salt in your pockets. Depends on who's reporting you, though... if it's senior lord Hardnose Borsail, you might indeed get fucked.

[Jingo]

If you have a templar in your pocket then you don't qualify as "outlaw".

And they'll just as likely kill you for your trouble.

[Miradus]

If the rooftops extended all the way to the 'rinth you could have an entirely outlaw experience, complete with bounties, INSIDE Allanak.

The rooftops were a great addition to southside. They're a mess inside the 'rinth and non-Euclidean (and no, there's no justification for that unless you live in Cthulhu-world). But southside they're just beautifully done. A world unto themselves.

Only rule is you have to have a pc with decent agility and climb skill, and you've got to have more than 88 stun and hp. Because 88 seems to be the magic number between where you survive that silly crit-fail climb or where you don't.

[Riev]

It sounds like good advice. But the reality is that you need to isolate yourself from the rest of the playerbase to play an outlaw. And you'll get fucked the first time you try to visit a tavern while starved for interaction.

Not if you have a templar worth their salt in your pockets. Depends on who's reporting you, though... if it's senior lord Hardnose Borsail, you might indeed get fucked.

In my own experiences, not every Templar believes your considerable payments of coin are anything beyond extra coin in their pockets. Unfortunately, as Jingo said, if you ever get starved for interaction, you're dead. I've lost at least two "outlaw-ish" PCs to "Well, ICly maybe I wouldn't do this, but I like the PC and I don't get to play around them often" only to them die within the play session for being visible.

Not that either death was undeserved, mind you. But people have much more fun "dealing with the outlaw" than they do "being targeted by the outlaw". And in a downtrodden scene like Zalanthas, where MANY people resort to breaking the law to survive, the PC response can sometimes be outlandish.

[Akaramu]

In my own experiences, not every Templar believes your considerable payments of coin are anything beyond extra coin in their pockets.

You generally need to establish your 'friendship' before you become an outlaw. Once you've annoyed a bunch of people and the templar doesn't know you (but knows THEM), the odds are stacked against you. Also, some templars are more competent and reliable than others, and some value coins more than others. Every templar usually wants SOMETHING. The trick is figuring out that something, and being reliable and competent yourself.

Full disclaimer: it took me like a decade to figure this out. 

I've seen a lot of outlaws get away with a lot of shit because they were politically savvy. But yeah, as an outdoors only person you're going to have a hard time.

[Jingo]

In my own experiences, not every Templar believes your considerable payments of coin are anything beyond extra coin in their pockets.

You generally need to establish your 'friendship' before you become an outlaw. Once you've annoyed a bunch of people and the templar doesn't know you (but knows THEM), the odds are stacked against you. Also, some templars are more competent and reliable than others, and some value coins more than others. Every templar usually wants SOMETHING. The trick is figuring out that something, and being reliable and competent yourself.

Full disclaimer: it took me like a decade to figure this out. 

I've seen a lot of outlaws get away with a lot of shit because they were politically savvy. But yeah, as an outdoors only person you're going to have a hard time.

You're kind of missing the point here. If you're just going to go ahead and get integrated into the establishment, then you're not a outlaw or a rebel. You're legit.

Tangentially, it is actually one of my bigger pet peeves. All fringe elements are expected to get co-opted into the same orbit of power. Resistance is futile. Even the goddamn guild is expected to play ball with the templarate or get magickers stuck up their ass.

[Akaramu]

That's true. And as I said earlier in the thread, I'd love for actual subversive elements in Allanak to be a thing. The templarate has been overpowered for a long time, it would be nice to mix up the status quo.

I'm super glad that the ridiculously overpowered powers that used to be in Tuluk are now gone at least.

[Jingo]

That's true. And as I said earlier in the thread, I'd love for actual subversive elements in Allanak to be a thing. The templarate has been overpowered for a long time, it would be nice to mix up the status quo.

I'm super glad that the ridiculously overpowered powers that used to be in Tuluk are now gone at least.

[Lutagar]

Imo, I'd love to see the karma cost of the new sorcerers lowered. They're no longer the unkillable, omnipotent, and uncatchable rockstars they once were, and it's an incredibly niche role that few would be able to play long enough to actually be dangerous before they get bored and do something dumb to die.

[Miradus]

It's a social activity, this Arm of ours. As much as I like to retreat into the wilds every so often, if you're going to MATTER in the game world then you've got to interact at some point on your timeline.

I don't agree that you can't be an outlaw and interact with people. I think you simply have to become part of an outlaw organization (or start one).

In the game lore, Templars have to be concerned with starting more riots. Allanak, if you read the timeline and history files, should be a city on the edge of destruction at all times. There's a seething hatred brewing in the streets just waiting to erupt. The Templars should have, as a balancing act, the desire to crush opposition tempered with the need to not enflame the population into riot. They are not all powerful people who can do whatever they want. If half the city burns again then they've got to answer to someone for it. Someone who is probably less merciful than they are.

And I find that to be AWESOME. It's what keeps a Templar from walking down the street and saying, "and execute that guy, and that guy, and over there ... him too." They are essentially spending a coin other than sid to work their plots ... political capital. An invisible coin where you can't go to Nenyuk and check your balance. They should be considering how much it will COST to execute-murder THIS guy.

If you're a political outlaw, you have to put on armor. Only your armor isn't made out of kryl or scrab. It's PLOT ARMOR. You insulate yourself from murder-from-above by having relationships, throwing around coin, helping important people (or people you think might be important later).