Cyberpunk & Armageddon

[nessalin]

http://www.pcgamer.com/its-time-for-cyberpunk-games-to-remember-how-to-be-punk/

This seems relevant in may ways to Armageddon's changes over the years.

[Miradus]

I get the Cyberpunk side of this, but I don't get how it relates to Armageddon.

Spell it out?

[Riev]

So, the author of this Op-Ed piece is saying that games are too tailored to the player, these days, and need to return to "You are not special, suck it up buttercup" days.

Sure. I get it. But if you want to make money, you aren't going to be able to do it that way. I can't help but notice the only modern game that "gets it right" is Shadowrun, and yet there's no mention about the fact that "some cheap lowlife Runner meeting up with and having a drink with FUCKING LOFWYR" is a bit out of the "gritty punk realm" that they so desire.

I think Nessalin is saying similar to the author, in that Arm "has changed so much over the years that its not what it used to be" and "people should remember that you're not special, entitled, different, or better than anyone".

What a great framework.

[whitt]

I get the Cyberpunk side of this, but I don't get how it relates to Armageddon.

Spell it out?

The streets and their inhabitants are central to cyberpunk Armageddon.  It's the powerless who suffer most in the kind of authoritarian regimes cyperpunk fiction Armageddon depicts, and games could do with getting back to the idea that the rebels, misfits, vandals, and people who can't afford a plate of spaghetti skin of water matter.

[Miradus]

I get it now. Yeah, I totally agree.

Everyone's a noble, a noble's aide, or some high falootin' varmint.

I'm going to put the grit back in the gritty.

[Riev]

I get it now. Yeah, I totally agree.

Everyone's a noble, a noble's aide, or some high falootin' varmint.

I'm going to put the grit back in the gritty.

Well, when there are 30 people online, and 5 of them are sponsored roles, each one demanding they have their own aide, plus a "field" aide for combat stuff... Yeah.

Not to mention the 'downtrodden' and 'gritty' tend to get offered free food, coins, and opportunity. Half blind, and a peg leg? We need hunters like you!

One thing I'd like to see more of, though, is where not only DO we matter, but the idea of seeing a Red Robe in person isn't like WORLD CHANGING shit. I'm content playing a ex-homeless punk who grew up doing petty crimes, and still seeing Lofwyr.

Can we just have Lofwyr?

[Delirium]

Not to mention if you refuse to give handouts, most of the time PCs act all affronted and go elsewhere... for handouts.

It's kinda infuriating when you're trying to represent a hard knock world and people act like you're playing WoW.

[Riev]

It does sometimes feel more like a 'Hey what benefits can I, a veteran, give to you, the new PC, so that you can be on my tier and do the things I do?'

In fairness, I think the last two times I rolled someone to be a 'rinther who scours Southside for people to mug, steal from, beg, etc... became leadership roles within like an IC year. Even if you want to be a lowlife, it doesn't make sense to when your PC has the privilege that many NPCs and vNPCS do not.

"I choose to be poor and downtrodden, even though I can make 200 coins a day for minimal effort!" is a hard thing to justify.

[lostinspace]

So is the relevance of this article that Arm is moving more towards upper nobility / clanned gameplay like games in industry have, or that Arm should follow what the writer of the article is saying and it should become grittier?

[BadSkeelz]

High class PCs up against the wall!

[Pale Horse]

You want grittier, get rid of the possibility for anything but.

[Armaddict]

It's a player mentality thing.  Cooperation is too 'common sense' to the majority of players.  That's not a push for PK, just a note that this is a byproduct of the push for inclusion in the name of interaction.  Pros and cons to it, this is one of the cons as far as how the game operates.  That's a long-held opinion of mine that many will disagree with, but I still perceive it often (perceive is used to show that this is a relative observation rather than an objective one).

[wizturbo]

You want grittier, get rid of the possibility for anything but.

This kind of reaction is why full elementalists, Tuluk, sorcerers and plenty of other fun stuff in the game was removed.  These people aren't playing the game the way I want it, so lets take out the option for them to play that!  For a game as small as Armageddon, it will be a death by a thousand cuts if we continue doing this kind of thing.

If you want grittier, start acting grittier.  No one says a noble or their aide has to be all frills and lace and soft smiles.  Play one that isn't.  Hire an aide that isn't.  Don't suggest that the very option to play someone who isn't the epitome of grit and spittle should be removed.

[Miradus]

1. Bottom driven plots
2. Less lethality in the power structure
3. The means to accomplish non-coded things

That's the sort of thing which could bring in that sort of mean streets gameplay.

[Armaddict]

I was alright with your post, wizturbo, though I'm not sure it was pushing for the lowlife side of things.

Nor do I agree with the idea that combat skills coming quicker and easier makes anything better, but that's a discussion that's been had in like thirty different threads in the last year. XD

[wizturbo]

Yup.  Didn't want to derail Nessalin's topic with that mess.

[Delirium]

If you want grittier, start acting grittier.  No one says a noble or their aide has to be all frills and lace and soft smiles.  Play one that isn't.  Hire an aide that isn't.  Don't suggest that the very option to play someone who isn't the epitome of grit and spittle should be removed.

+1000%

The strength of Armageddon is that it has room for almost every playstyle... if we start trying to railroad people into playing exactly the kind of game we personally enjoy, we'll turn away those other players who don't enjoy that side of it.`

That said, I think there's a wiiiiiiiide gap between "cultured upperclass" and "lol i'm new gimme free stuff" or "giggle sex soft smiles 24/7"

[Miradus]

There's a personal playstyle I enjoy that a lot of others don't. But if they were all playing my playstyle then I wouldn't enjoy mine so much anymore, right?

I don't think it's about taking away. I think too much of that goes on as it is.

I think it's about opening more doors.

There are hunting groups, merchant houses. Why is there not a grebber's union? A beggar's guild? I think we, as the playerbase, tend to roll those things up into the nearest suitable structure instead of creating new. Because it's easier to latch on to something others are doing instead of starting something for ourselves.

[Armaddict]

Like...more clans?!

[Miradus]

Maybe not sponsored. But if some guy comes in and says "I'm Boss Grebber, chieftain of the Dirty Bottom Boys" then what's not to like about that guy?

Or I guess we can just have more aides sitting at the bar cooing at each other.

[wizturbo]

But if some guy comes in and says "I'm Boss Grebber, chieftain of the Dirty Bottom Boys" then what's not to like about that guy?

Or I guess we can just have more aides sitting at the bar cooing at each other.

What's not to like about the guy who plays the game the way I like to play it?!  Or we can have more people playing it the way I don't enjoy.  Is that what you're trying to say here?

We get it, you don't like aides sitting around at bar.  Don't play one.  Go play Boss Grebber Dirty Bottoms and have a blast, gather people around you who want to do the same.   Many players enjoy both kinds of roles and revel in the variety that Armageddon offers them. 

I guess my main point is, if the player base wanted Armageddon to be grittier, it would be grittier.  You're seeing a reflection of what everyone's collaborative storytelling efforts wants in their world.  If the player base didn't like sponsored roles, no one would apply to them and the staff would get the hint.  That isn't what happens though, they get tons of applications and have to pick and choose who to give them to...  that demand says something.

[wizturbo]

http://www.pcgamer.com/its-time-for-cyberpunk-games-to-remember-how-to-be-punk/

This seems relevant in may ways to Armageddon's changes over the years.

I think the most relevant piece is the portion on "Hero Complex" midway through the article.  This in my opinion is directly applicable to Armageddon.  Especially the "Cyberpunk games are rarely about cool losers.  They're usually about cool cops."  I think Armageddon probably puts too much focus on the 'cops' side of the house.  There's tons of support and focus on the big Houses, Templars and Merchants but very limited support for the 'losers' on the block.  I would love to see that balance change a bit.

[lostinspace]

I would love to see that balance change a bit.

Hasn't it recently, with the closing of Merchant House hunting roles and the new system for creating your own clan and getting your own warehouse?

[wizturbo]

I don't believe that supporting indies equates to supporting the "cool losers" though.  It's a step in that direction, but it isn't completely there.

To me, the "cool losers" are nobodies.  They aren't affiliated to anyone, they aren't trying to become the next House anything...  They're just people scrapping by trying to make ends meet.  The problem is, how do you support them?  They're not really doing things that require much support...  So, resources and attention goes to the squeaky wheels.

[Riev]

Gritty would be nice, but far too often sacrifices for playability are made. If you're some froofy aide sitting in the Gaj, and someone says they don't like House Rennik, and your Lady is a Lady Rennik... think carefully about what you say. Most people would be wary about fucking with Noble employees, but situation and environment matter.

It SUCKS to 'have' to go to Red's or the Ginka... but the Gaj has breeds throwing up, random brawls, etc. Expect to get punched if you piss off a drunk.

Also, expect people to GET drunk.

And if your pet aide gets into a fistfight over something stupid they did? Maybe don't have the person who retaliates non-lethally killed (I don't think this has happened, though).



The game/players are all about "adding grit" but only insofar as they can squash the fucking SHIT out of grit and then complain when it doesn't exist.