The OOC game is driving me away.

[Talkofthetown]

I have played this game for over ten years, and for about half that time I have played characters that I know, for a fact, have been talked about in OOC circles in a way that would be considered harmful and against the game rules. These discussions take place mostly in private, but because people know people, word eventually gets around to me in one way or another. A friend who I don't talk to about IC stuff (although everyone says that, don't they?) gives me a heads-up, or links me to a recent log with my character in it on pastebin, or I find posts about my characters on the jcarter board, their discord chat, or BadSkeelz's Teamspeak server, among other places. On two occasions I was alerted of plans to kill two of my characters for purely OOC reasons.

I'm not sure how someone following the game's rules can play a collaborative storytelling game alongside people who collude out-of-game to come out on top and win the game. I honestly don't know what to do about it anymore. I could report it, but the web of players obfuscates the source of the OOC information. I could ignore it, but at this point the curtains have been lifted and I know just how deep the rabbit hole goes. I play a game with people who are unfair and who know that there is no way for them to be punished by staff, because staff doling out punishments for OOC abuse is the ultimate game of whack-a-mole. And honestly, if staff banned every OOC player our unique logins would probably be cut in half if not more.

My characters try to involve other characters and run plots, whether they are minions or leaders. Is it out of jealousy targeted at what is perceived as success? Would the attention of the OOC players move to someone else if I played a character that did nothing?

You could say that these players are a minority. To that, I say: Armageddon had 213 unique logins from January 9 to January 15. armageddonmud.boards.net has 549 members. Their discord chat has 61 members. If that many people are willing to discuss IC information in public, how many do you think do it in private? The ultimate joke is that many of the people who have condemned the jcarter groups here in the past are people who break the rules in private anyway.

Tell me why I should stay and try to play a collaborative game with people who are not interested at all in collaboration. Tell me why I shouldn't just find another RPI to dedicate my time and roleplaying skills to. Tell me why I shouldn't just give up RPIs altogether and play a game that is more fair instead during my free time. If no one has any good reasons then I'll just go, as I've heard loud and clear that the playerbase doesn't want me around. I am not pointing the finger at anyone. I am not flaming or trolling. I am just pointing out the elephant in the room and asking if anyone here even cares about it anymore.

Posted anonymously for obvious reasons.

[Fathi]

It sucks, man, but it's true. Armageddon is just like any other group of people engaging in an exercise of mutual trust and collaboration: some people won't play ball. Like a group project where some don't pull their weight or a professional scenario where people gossip behind one another's backs, those people are always going to be out there.

Again, it really does suck, but you've nailed down the truth of it: no amount of complaints or good faith is going to fix that.

So in the end it comes down to you, and your choices.

If you choose not to engage on those levels and not to engage with those people, you'll never be made aware of anything fishy involving your characters. Ignorance is truly bliss. Trying to guess at people's motivations for shit like that is only going to lead down a rabbit hole of second-guessing yourself and worrying if every PC you ever meet in the game has ill intentions for OOC reasons. I know it can be tough to shut that part of your brain off, but trust me when I say that it's just not worth it.

When you ask "does anyone care anymore" I think the answer you're going to find is that the people who enjoy the game the most are the people who have trained themselves to care the least. I'm enjoying Armageddon a lot right now. I have a lot of friends that I've made in this game over the decade plus that I've played, but it's been about seven or eight years since I've encountered any of the behaviour you talk about, because I have purposefully removed myself from those aspects of the community.

You play Armageddon for yourself, man. I play for me. I play to enjoy myself and have fun. A bunch of people whining at you behind closed doors doesn't have to impact your life unless you let it. That can be hard to tell, I know, but if you remove yourself from those environments for long enough, you will stop thinking about them altogether.

That's the best answer I can give. Just play for yourself, ignore everybody else, and if you are having fun slowly the rest will cease to matter.

[Miradus]

Well said, Fathi.

I have embraced the Four Noble Truths of Arm.

1. You're going to die
2. Someone or something is going to kill you
3. You will die with shit not completed
4. You will wish you hadn't died, right up to the moment your NEW character is approved

If you're worried about being cyber-stalked in the game, then instead of creating throwaway accounts to post about being cyber-stalked, use those throwaways for roll-calls in house/tribe/clan subforums. Don't talk to people OOC and they most likely won't guess it's you.

There are some perceptive individuals who can tell that character X and character Y are played by the same person, but I think probably the majority can't. I know I can't. If you think that's what's going on, then mix up your style a little bit and see if that doesn't fix it.

Take your frustration into your next character. People plotting to kill you OOC? Maybe play someone who is super-paranoid. I have a short-term enjoyment of my characters. Anything around 10 days played I think is the sweet spot for me. This is a mud I REALLY wish I could play multiple characters on, but I understand the mechanics of why I can't. So I still play some other games to mix it up a little when I get tired of inhabiting the same person's skin.

[lostinspace]

I try and keep contact with other players to a minimum because I know this will immediately start happening if I don't. I've been lucky enough to never have something ruined for my by OOC collusion (that I know of). And at this point I really don't even care if people are talking ooc as long as it doesn't immediately effect my character. We all draw a line in the sand somewhere, sharing mechanics but not plot, 1 year cut-off, etc. Really all you can do is play what you prefer, how you prefer, and hope for the best.

[Talkofthetown]

I don't care if my characters die. I prefer it to storing.

I use alts on clan forums, when I join a clan.

The issue I have is very specific: players who play the OOC game plot against my character OOCly or just try to make me feel bad for playing my character. One time, I was randomly e-mailed by a player telling me to store my character because he felt my character was boring. Random critique has been thrown my way regardless of how much effort I put into hiding who I play. As for the plotting, my issue is I have no IC recourse against it, because I only play the game IC. Whether I ignore the OOC plotting or not, it will end up affecting me.

How is that behavior remotely acceptable?

[Malifaxis]

Hi.

Don't let them get to you.  Saying that is a lot tougher than doing it.  They get to me all the time... I used to live with someone who loved the jcarter crap, and apparently I get talked about over there.  It's fucking bullshit, but hey, it happens.  Those that can not be you, will envy you.  Don't react.  Don't give them anything for it.

By reacting to someone who has the wrong opinion of you, you validate them and give them more to hate you for.  Do not do this.

The people who you talk to who send you snippets and tidbits?  Tell them to cut that shit out.  Just say, "Look, play the game how you want to, I play it for me, and I have more fun when I don't know a goddamn thing."  This is advice I've given to a couple others over the years, and it works.  If they're your friends, they will respect you.  If they aren't your friends, they'll get all super bitchyparanoid about you ratting on them, and they'll back off.  Win-Win.

Look, bud, if you've been here 10 years, you give a shit about the game.  You possibly even give as much as 4.2 shits about the game.  Keep giving a shit.  If you need to walk then take a break... we'll still be here, and shit will be even more awesome when you come back.

Personally, I hope you don't.  You sound like just the kind of player we need right now.  Especially if you start to cut off the rotting portions of meat who like to send you shit you don't want to see.

Hope you stick around.  Please give it some thought.  The game is amazing, and the players are head and shoulders above most other games out there.  Yeah, there's some literally stinky dingleberries out there.  Avoid them.  Let them play their little popularity game of "Staff H8s Me More" over on JCarter's Masturbatory Memorial Board and just go out there and beat them.

Be awesome.  Fuck the ones who bring you down.

[Miradus]

There could be 20 people right now plotting to kill me and I wouldn't know it.

How do YOU know it? That's what I don't understand. Are they sending you PM's saying they know who you are and they're going to kill you?

[Orin]

If you really do enjoy Armageddon, take a break.  Make a new handle on the GDB.  Don't let anyone know who you were.  If you see other Arm players in real life, tell them you stopped playing.  Most importantly, stop logging on to chat platforms of any kind.

I've had near sixteen handles in the past eighteen years because of OOC abuse of this nature.

[Talkofthetown]

There could be 20 people right now plotting to kill me and I wouldn't know it.

How do YOU know it? That's what I don't understand. Are they sending you PM's saying they know who you are and they're going to kill you?

One time, I was PMed a complaint about my character arresting theirs and that they were going to keep rolling characters until they killed me. They eventually succeeded.

The other time, a post on the jcarter board went up about how someone should kill my long-lived character just to troll me. That never actually happened.

[Talkofthetown]

The game is amazing, and the players are head and shoulders above most other games out there.

Sadly, not enough of a reason to continue to deal with the "dingleberries" as you put it, at this point. They are clearly not going to go away, they are only going to make the game worse, and they do it so their characters can get a leg up in the game.

[Nathvaan]

How is that behavior remotely acceptable?

It is not acceptable and there are rules against exactly this for exactly this reason.  The advice so far in this thread is valid and good from a player's perspective.  From a staff's perspective I would say you can feel free to bring your experiences and issues to us via the request tool.  We take it seriously and we investigate.

So the things you can do is let us know and then realize that other people's ass-tardary is something that is well beyond your control.  Steer clear of talking to anyone OOC and just enjoy being your character and all that goes along with that would be my advice. When you are deep in your scenes and forget about everything else but the RP in which you are entrenched, that is when this game truly shines.

[Kalden]

There could be 20 people right now plotting to kill me and I wouldn't know it.

This. Why don't you stop talking to those people? I started in 2003 and came back in 2016 after a 5-year break, and it doesn't seem that different. There's always been OOC chatter, but it never really affected me and still doesn't.

Since I came back around 9 months ago, I've interacted IC a fair amount with powerful, long-lived people who might be inclined to plot people's deaths. Hardly interacted with people OOC outside of maybe an occasional scheduling sync. If this was a serious issue, I'm pretty sure I'd have caught wind of it...

With that said, I have checked out the shadow board and I sort of have the opposite reaction: I would like there to be more communication from staff around addressing some of the complaints. I'd like to see the occasional retrospective analysis from staff about where they could have improved, internal conduct guidelines made public, high-level transparency perhaps with some Key Performance Metrics (including both game metrics and software quality metrics, e.g. # of open bugs, perhaps test coverage of code altho I think unit tests are way overrated, etc), more active solicitation of feedback, and perhaps a public roadmap. I have a bias towards that approach as a software engineer in an "Agile" shop in San Francisco where we try to do these things all the time and spend a lot of time trying to improve our practices as well as communicating to our customers and seeing how we can help make their lives better. Which is not to say that staff doesn't do that in the GDB, but it feels a bit haphazard.

Anyhow, the only thing driving me away from the game is that I have other real-life strategic priorities and this game is too damn addictive, altho it can feel a bit oriented around mudsexing and grinding skills versus changing the world, adrenaline-packed action, and mysterious intrigue. The latter three are why I play Armageddon.

[Talkofthetown]

How is that behavior remotely acceptable?

It is not acceptable and there are rules against exactly this for exactly this reason.  The advice so far in this thread is valid and good from a player's perspective.  From a staff's perspective I would say you can feel free to bring your experiences and issues to us via the request tool.  We take it seriously and we investigate.

So the things you can do is let us know and then realize that other people's ass-tardary is something that is well beyond your control.  Steer clear of talking to anyone OOC and just enjoy being your character and all that goes along with that would be my advice. When you are deep in your scenes and forget about everything else but the RP in which you are entrenched, that is when this game truly shines.

I understand that it is against the rules, and if I continue to play the game then I will report incidents as they occur. I am asking that question in the context of the player perspective - in other words, how is this behavior acceptable to the players that engage in it? - because following that rule in particular is really based on the honor system since staff can't monitor most OOC activities.

[Miradus]

The kind of behavior you're describing is so egregious ...

Well, most people who haven't experienced it are going to be shocked. Those who have are going to have come to grips with it in their own way.

And those who engage in it? Are probably thrilled to no end to see you post about it.

Griefers gonna grief, is what I'm saying.

[wizturbo]

I understand that it is against the rules, and if I continue to play the game then I will report incidents as they occur. I am asking that question in the context of the player perspective - in other words, how is this behavior acceptable to the players that engage in it? - because following that rule in particular is really based on the honor system since staff can't monitor most OOC activities.

For the overwhelming majority of players it isn't acceptable at all.  The problem is like most populations there's a bell curve-like distribution of adherence to the rules.  Some rare few have zero OOC interactions what so ever about anything.  The majority probably have the equivalent of driving 5 mph over the speed limit kind of OOC interactions.  And then on the other end you have the OOC felons who are doing the stuff you're referring to in your posts. 

With that said, there's probably more you can be doing to protect yourself.  It isn't easy to tell who is playing who in this game unless they follow similar patterns in-game, or have some forms of OOC communications of their own going on.  Changing up your IC behaviors, speech patterns and emotes should help you be more incognito in-game.

Out of game, I'd recommend ceasing all OOC conversations entirely save whatever you want to do on the GDB.  There's a good chance one of the 'friends' you talk to isn't doing you any favors.

[boog]

I've had two people tell me to store before, too.

I effectively told them to kiss my ass. Fuck them.

Like Malifaxis, I know this is easier said than done, but you've just gotta play. If you would rather control how your character's story ends, then I'd recommend writing stories on your own time. Armageddon is a shared experience, a shared story, even if others would share it with an OOC slant or grudge.

Just keep swimming, friend.

[Is Friday]

Wow! I've never had someone tell me to store before. They usually just try to kill my PC through IC or OOC means. That's cool, I guess.

I dunno. I've talked to and still do talk to some folks that I've met IRL--others that I haven't. I enjoy talking about the game with my friends, that's what I do. Can't say I've ever used it to greatly benefit myself in an OOC way.

If you leave the ball in someone else's court to decide how you enjoy the game then you're selling yourself short on what fun you're capable of having. Hell, there's chunks of players that avoid playing in the same clan as me like the plague because of the "reputation" I have OOC. Don't let it bother you and just don't involve yourself. (See signature for a relevant quote.)

[Sedora]

I am a far, far younger player as far as years invested than you, but I've sensed the problems you're talking about. I've found that walling off people who begin to appear like talkarounds, or outright cutting them out of my OOC completely, seems to alleviate a lot of stress. It's only natural in a social environment like this game to want to make friends with the people behind the characters. However, simply knowing someone who also plays the game, if that's all it ever is and you never talk about the game, can affect the game if you let it.

Someone smart once told me that getting to know the players changes the entire experience, and I stand by that  myself. Sometimes it changes things for the better and you come out of it with an amazing friend who translates into IRL. Sometimes you end up with friends you can casually talk about unimportant joys about the game with, like those changes to bows and the adding of dyeable clothing! Sometimes, though, you start wondering when its going to backfire on you IC, or through staff if someone gets pissed at you and lies. My philosophy is share nothing of even almost vague importance, and if people you connect OOCly with try to take things there, cut them off.

As far as dealing with the aftermath of those types of actions in other people...they can only ruin your game if you let them. It is definitely possible to shove yourself into the void of obliviousness and enjoy every second of the game despite what ooc tards plot against you. It takes a little effort, but its well worth it when you can laugh in their face.

[Riev]

I don't know how to put it better than "You don't know they're unfairly targeting you unless you're engaging in similar OOC Communication".

I've talked with players, staff, ex-players, etc... the ones who don't like the OOC chatter let me know when I say something over the line, and I adjust. Some people may not, and there are some who basically only contact me to say stuff that happened in game that I'd never know about. PERSONALLY, I'm alright at keeping the IC and OOC decently separated, but I envy those who are so engrossed IC that they can't.

I've been to JCarter's boards. Like Movie Poop Chute, they're a bunch of people who claim to hate a game yet can't stop talking about it. Some of their information is actually super helpful, and only hurts the game because NEW players don't yet have the skill to apply that meta knowledge in game without sacrificing the narrative.

Other than that, I wish I could empathize, but I don't do things that attract that kind of attention. I'd say you're PROBABLY doing things right? You can't care about the 10 dislikes when 500,000 people like your video.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I would say people acting like this are actually game breaking.  I like to make different characters, which means some of my characters are real dirtbags.  I would hate for a hatred of that character to continue over to a new character that is not a dirtbag. 

[LauraMars]

If I'm playing a character I actually give a crap about I tend to keep it a dark secret and I wouldn't even tell my own mother.

[wizturbo]

This thread is making me consider using different GDB names when I join clans.  I haven't had any bad experiences yet, but now I'm paranoid.

[BadSkeelz]

Haters gonna hate. It's tough to manage but how much they bother you is really in your hands. There's other good advice here regarding OOC management, but I wouldn't change how you play IC. Play how you want.

[Delirium]

Haters gonna hate. It's tough to manage but how much they bother you is really in your hands. There's other good advice here regarding OOC management, but I wouldn't change how you play IC. Play how you want.

When BadSkeelz and I agree completely, you know it's good advice.

[Inks]

Just play the game. A lot of players can't seperate ic and ooc generally stick to the one year rule or you will shoot yourself in the foot. If you are playing a raider ignore people bitching about raiders on the gdb suddenly etc, generally when I avoid the gdb I have a better ig experience.

And when it comes to pc actions always act ic.

But yeah only you can stress you out. So...calm down and play, it's that simple.