Release Note discussion!

[mansa]

I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?

NPC Merchants currently sell to virtual npcs and collect coin that way.  "NPC MERCHANT sells to a passerby" is the echo.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?

NPC Merchants currently sell to virtual npcs and collect coin that way.  "NPC MERCHANT sells to a passerby" is the echo.

Ah. I honestly thought that was just flavor.

[Namino]

I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?

NPC Merchants currently sell to virtual npcs and collect coin that way.  "NPC MERCHANT sells to a passerby" is the echo.

Ah. I honestly thought that was just flavor.

I've always felt the rate of sale to vNPCs was very very slow but people in the thread who know more about this side of the game than me seem to feel like it's fine, so I bow to that. I haven't played a hardcore merchant since 2012.

[Vex]

This would ensure anyone can sell things and collect enough to buy food and water.

I don't want to ensure that.

It'd be better if there was no sure food and water, and that at least until you become quite confident in your skills, being dependent on other entities, such as established characters, clans and indie groups, is the norm. There will NEVER be a shortage of hunters, EVER, but most hunters won't sell you meat unless you're paying more than the npc will pay for cooked meat. It's no longer going to be viable, to sell 5 steaks of every kind to the npc, every reboot. It'll no longer be possible, to sell five of every hide and shell to an npc, every reboot.

Hunters selling meat and food products at well below what the npcs sell for, will become a viable option. Seeking out independents and house crafters both, will become required to unload all those hides and shells. If we eliminated free food for clans, or at least clan employees, hiring a reliable House hunter would actually matter, else hiring fickle independents becomes a necessity. And cooks. Suddenly, being a master chef isn't just a foppish flavor deal, but being responsible for keeping other pcs fed, to a standard appropriate to the clan, is a real and meaningful job.

When pcs MUST work together, or feed off of each other like parasites, there is unavoidable interactions. Atm, you can and many do, avoid pc contact beyond their ooc circle of friends, or those that are the most safe and comfortable, because nobody needs other pcs for anything. Even a heavy craft class has ABSOLUTELY no need for other pcs. I hope, these changes to npc merchants, will make grouping up not just possible, but neigh-requisite for success.

Tbh, I mostly solo myself, because I don't care to indulge in a lot of the stuff people regularly push for, as far as interactions go. I don't much care for the shit ic/ooc attitude of most sponsor roles, as must carry on like they don't even CARE about their business. I don't care for, largely, how disposable absolutely everyone is to each other. And all of this is, imo, due to the fact nobody NEEDS each other, for anything. The clans, indie groups, it's all CONTRIVED, simply "because interaction".

A game where we are not carried by npc hand outs, and "going without" means going hungry and dehydration instead of "going without the best gear and an apartment in every town", is my ideal.

Work together, or feed off of each other, but either way, having no choice but to depend on other pcs for survival and not enough to go around, will make the entire experience more visceral, with "real" consequences you won't be able to handwave off.

[Dresan]

I don't agree with you Vex. I'm okay with PC being poor, but not so okay with them being dead because a hunter didn't log in or they rolled a class without forage food.

That said, i don't believe the changes are so extreme to make people starve, and there are always jobs like selling poop and foraging clay (though unless you are using the clay, this doesn't seem viable for city folk, resting is hard and it costs a lot of water). 

[Eyeball]

Property, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.

Property exists (rentable apartments, warehouses, shops, compounds), 24/7 NPC guards exist. Arguably founding a minor merchant house is buying priviledges and minor titles.

*sigh* You and I rarely see eye to eye, I've noticed.

Renting an apartment is not owning a property.

24/7 guards exist in the most minimal way, certainly not as an option most characters will ever spend coin on. And there are plenty of other potential uses for NPC hirelings.

Bushranger covers everything else.

Bushranger tells me to do these things. Except that it isn't me making changes to the game that are going in the opposite direction.  One character trying to have a significant impact on the environment is hopeless, staff initiative is needed. It took some other player a year RL to get bamberry put into the game. I can only imagine how much time and effort it would take to have an actual building constructed. More than I have the fortitude for, certainly. Not to mention the improbability of such an effort surviving multiple generations of Templars and staff rotations.

All of these were examples I thought of in three minutes. I'm sure given further thought and imagination, one could produce a list as long as an elven arm. It's just not the direction things are going in though.

[Vex]

That said, i don't believe the changes are so extreme to make people starve, and there are always jobs like selling poop and foraging clay (though unless you are using the clay, this doesn't seem viable for city folk, resting is hard and it costs a lot of water).

Not in and of themselves, but I hope to see more changes in the same vein.

As for your example... if the hunter dies, or doesn't log in? I guess it's time to seek alternatives.

Worst case? Get your mate to turn some tricks... or turn them yourself. Do something menial, something "below" most pcs. Scrape dung. Dig salt. Beg.

There's always ways to put food on the table, if you're hungry enough.

Ideally... pcs will find themselves in situations, where they have to make hard choices, or do things beyond their comfort zones. As it is, everyone is quite comfortable and conceited about what they'll do, or how much they should get (over) paid even in their chalton boots, and it stinks.

[Eyeball]

Vex, you want a survival game. Which is fine, except the problem is that you'll always end up in the same place. You'll have learned how to survive and with the struggle resolved it will seem too easy again. Meanwhile newbies will die left and right and give up out of frustration. Especially true if it's made so harsh that even knowledge of the game isn't enough to guarantee survival.

[Vex]

Vex, you want a survival game. Which is fine, except the problem is that you'll always end up in the same place. You'll have learned how to survive and with the struggle resolved it will seem too easy again. Meanwhile newbies will die left and right and give up out of frustration. Especially true if it's made so harsh that even knowledge of the game isn't enough to guarantee survival.

You're so GDB, right now.

[Namino]

Vex, you want a survival game. Which is fine, except the problem is that you'll always end up in the same place. You'll have learned how to survive and with the struggle resolved it will seem too easy again. Meanwhile newbies will die left and right and give up out of frustration. Especially true if it's made so harsh that even knowledge of the game isn't enough to guarantee survival.

You're so GDB, right now.

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[John]

*sigh* You and I rarely see eye to eye, I've noticed.

Renting an apartment is not owning a property.

Yeah. Mostly cause it seems we're playing completely different games. I don't go to the one location around Allanak where there's free water with every character, because I like having to learn things in game and the challenge not knowing that information provides.

Likewise I understand that our characters own shit and don't ever own anything. Because the templars can take anything from you at any time and it will be 100% legal. The fact you scoff at Armageddon being a survival game really boggles my mind. Once upon a time the motto "there's no such thing as a free lunch" was actually true. You think newbies dying to starvation is bad and will drive people away. As someone who got executed by a PC templar within hours of getting into the game, I loved it.

God I hate the GDB.

My final thoughts on these changes: Could things go horribly wrong? Yes. Could things change for the better? Yes. For this reason I think it's worth giving things a chance.

[Brokkr]

Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

[Krath]

Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

If we kill all the merchant houses, and Crafters in game, problem solved...Be the change.

[Cerelum]

Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

If we kill all the merchant houses, and Crafters in game, problem solved...Be the change.

I guess it codedly would be possible if you killed the gate guards... But that would be a major assault.

[Eyeball]

Mostly cause it seems we're playing completely different games.

We're playing the same game but we clearly want different things from it.

Likewise I understand that our characters own shit and don't ever own anything. Because the templars can take anything from you at any time and it will be 100% legal.

Hello, Red Storm? Luir's Outpost? No templars there, but this change affects them too.

The fact you scoff at Armageddon being a survival game really boggles my mind.

A straw man. My last character began in Red Storm and was created to never want to go north of it, nor be able to work cloth or leather. A deliberate experience in seeing if I could survive.

But there was a time when a character could aspire to more than just survival. You won't see any more Thrain Oakenshields or Khanns or lesser such lights in the game now though.

Once upon a time the motto "there's no such thing as a free lunch" was actually true. You think newbies dying to starvation is bad and will drive people away. As someone who got executed by a PC templar within hours of getting into the game, I loved it.

Ok, so you want the initial experience to filter players to have the same mindset (i.e. basically "bad is good"). Maybe that's the problem; I started before these ideas developed and yet I somehow stuck with the game. I've never particularly enjoyed having my character tortured or killed. Maybe your type of player has won and I'm just not letting go of the past.

God I hate the GDB.

No argument from me here. I'm not opposing any change, though, which is what I find the GDB to be: one big "no" to everything that isn't proposed by staff. I just want a different sort of change.

[Eyeball]

Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

So, for clarification: are all the crumbling mudbrick dwellings and miserable hovels in the Commoner's Quarter owned by Nenyuk? I admit it's been a long time, but there was a day when PCs could own houses in Allanak and Tuluk. I even built a few of them. The clear implication was that some commoners did own their walls, no matter how squalid.

[Narf]

Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

Doubt it. Merchants used to have unlimited coin. I used to run between Luirs and Tuluk selling the same thing over and over again and racked up tens of thousands. The only limit was my family had one phone line and I couldn't log on for long periods of time or it might have been 100's of thousands.

[Cerelum]

Granted I hardly live long enough to advance my combat skills past, "I'm able to kill a raptor/spider" but they literally listened to everyone complaining about skill plateaus and created a small chance to dodge.

So they listened.

One thing I would like back is the thing that says, cerelum three typos resolved etc etc, so you know someone is actually looking at bugs and typos.

[Veselka]

Granted I hardly live long enough to advance my combat skills past, "I'm able to kill a raptor/spider" but they literally listened to everyone complaining about skill plateaus and created a small chance to dodge.

So they listened.

One thing I would like back is the thing that says, cerelum three typos resolved etc etc, so you know someone is actually looking at bugs and typos.

www.armageddon.org/updates/

[John]

Ok, so you want the initial experience to filter players to have the same mindset (i.e. basically "bad is good"). Maybe that's the problem; I started before these ideas developed and yet I somehow stuck with the game. I've never particularly enjoyed having my character tortured or killed. Maybe your type of player has won and I'm just not letting go of the past.

Oh good. We are at the part of the discussion where we argue "I've been here longer so I'm more right". Please tell me when you started playing Arm so then one of us can summarily dismiss the other person.

And yes. I do want Armageddon to be harsh and for that to be what newbies experience. That way people who enjoy that style of game will remain and help foster that environment. You can call it bad. I call it one of the key ingredients to Armageddon's continued success.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I'm not sure I understand. Seems like the first person to get to the store is going to deplete all the coins now and there will be no more unless someone buys something. So when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero? Isn't this just going to result in none of the stores ever having any money?

Also, why can't the shops of the GMH's just act as distributors for THEIR own goods and no one elses. The crafters that make (GMH) goods can just deposit them in the shop for some GMH credit or something. Then all the NPC indie merchants would not have to deplete all their coins buying silk dresses that realistically they shouldn't be able to afford. And if a person goes to a GMH shop, they can be assured the product they purchase is truly genuine.

[John]

I'm not sure I understand. Seems like the first person to get to the store is going to deplete all the coins now and there will be no more unless someone buys something.

NPCs have sold to VNPC for some time now.

So when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero?

When an shop sells to a VNPC they actually sell a real item. If it's not one of their "many" items, this depletes the store's stock of that item.

Also, why can't the shops of the GMH's just act as distributors for THEIR own goods and no one elses. The crafters that make (GMH) goods can just deposit them in the shop for some GMH credit or something. Then all the NPC indie merchants would not have to deplete all their coins buying silk dresses that realistically they shouldn't be able to afford. And if a person goes to a GMH shop, they can be assured the product they purchase is truly genuine.

I don't really understand what your suggesting and what the expected behaviour is to your suggestion. The two parts of this quote don't really seem to go together.

[Heade]

If shops maintain existing inventory on reboot, what's going to happen to those items that existed only in limited quantities on shop reboots before? I know there were many of these in game, where there was no way to craft the item, and there were only 1 or 2 available from a shop when the game first rebooted. Are these items still going to replenish, or are they now effectively gone from the game?

[John]

If shops maintain existing inventory on reboot, what's going to happen to those items that existed only in limited quantities on shop reboots before? I know there were many of these in game, where there was no way to craft the item, and there were only 1 or 2 available from a shop when the game first rebooted. Are these items still going to replenish, or are they now effectively gone from the game?

I would hope that staff would take note of these items and readjust their availability as necessary, but you raise a good point. From memory there is a cushion in the half-elf furniture seller in Allanak that has an inventory of 1 per reboot so in order to buy a matching set I would literally have to wait for multiple reboots.

[PriestlySiren]

A couple things. Having food and water provided for clans is a perk for joining a clan. Take it away from the Byn? There's not enough indie hunters to sustain them. They have to take focus away from contracts to go hunt.

Back in 2013, Arm of the Dragon didn't have an npc to feed the recruits. So it was on Privates and higher to randomly fill bags to feed people. If the clan was slow, you could legit starve while not getting paid, following a strict schedule and never being allowed to leave the city gates.

Clans have perks. Some more than others.