Release Note discussion!

[Eyeball]

"Suggesting hack makes a warrior = ranger in combat capacity is ridiculous."

I didn't suggest this, you did, by claiming a master warrior can effectively dispense with a shield and dodge. If that's so, then a master ranger can be just as good, with a defense as high and a parry nearly as high, and with a whole bunch of wilderness skills a warrior doesn't get. It might take longer to get there (which I sort of doubt, especially given how rangers have higher wisdoms from what I've seen), but so what.

At this point, we don't know how many classes get this skill. From what little I've observed, it doesn't have a penalty to its use like disarm and bash do. So a few "hackers", even with only a 10% chance per strike, could quickly reduce a shield.

This makes shields less effective. The most distinguishing feature of a warrior, in my opinion, was high shield use. So it makes warriors less effective.

But who knows, maybe warriors (or their equivalent) will just start carry a few light shields in their inventories now. EDIT: maybe we'll even see non-combatants serving as shield dispensers.

[Riev]

My concern with Hack is primarily in that it will be an actual skill, but right now it is just a simple ability.

If it requires only chopping weapons? That might be fine.

If the delay is significant? Fine.

If it takes multiple hacks at a shield to damage it enough to be obliterated? Fine.


Warrior, as a class right now, is more defined by Disarm and Bash than it is tanking with high shield use. As others have said, the new Guilds will have higher shield use than before. I'm concerned, as others, that the Heavy Combat Classes will see a lesser defined role, but I don't think that has anything to do with Hack as a skill. There seems to be a lot of limitations to it right now, and like threaten, I wonder how often it will even see use.

[Brokkr]

It is an actual skill. Most folks are using the functionality that exists for anyone to use it, just like anyone can kick.  There are new classes with the actual skill on their skill list though.

Abilities are something completely different.

[BrainySmurf]

I didn't suggest this, you did, by claiming a master warrior can effectively dispense with a shield and dodge.

You're misunderstanding. Even holding an intact shield, a day 50 warrior is going to dodge 4 day 5 opponent's strikes,  not block. That's how combat code works in this game. Secondly, five low level warriors are no more likely to spam hack successfully by virtue of numbers than they are to kick down a master warrior. There's  a reason people don't complain about a wave of fresh characters murdering old timers by spamming kick, and it's because the kicks don't connect. Similarly, five people hacking at you will likewise not be a problem, because a master warrior has high enough innate defense to avoid or mitigate it. The fact that you also think that the moment a shield is out of a warrior's hands means you've neutralized what makes a warrior a warrior bespeaks to me a relative inexperience with armageddon combat. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but perhaps you should gather some practical experience before suggesting what is effectovely a balance patch for shields is horribly unfair to warriors. I'm a warrior and this is fine.

On the subject on practical experience, Riev:

Hack requires a chopping weapon.

It has similar delays to disarm or kick.

I connected four times on a gith shield and dropped it to used. I hacked perhaps 12-15 times to do it. 4 Stam a hack same as bash.

I don't have the skill so I'm going to hypothesize damage will increase with skill. But given the delays and the fact that a low defense compared to my offense gith dodged me 70% of the time... I'm not worried.

[Eyeball]

The fact that you also think that the moment a shield is out of a warrior's hands means you've neutralized what makes a warrior a warrior bespeaks to me a relative inexperience with armageddon combat.

Possibly. I played one of the very first master warriors, but shields didn't block back then and parry was much more effective. Since then, I've had a habit of retiring characters before they reached their full potential.

In any case, time will tell. It looks to me like the class changes will produce a spectrum of abilities instead of the stark differences we see between current classes, and starting skill levels will be higher, which will make it difficult for anyone stand out anymore.

[Dar]

Eyeball. Let's just say shield use is more effective then parry. Not by much. Maybe twice as much, or three times, or ten times as good?  I'm exaggerating, sorry. But shield use is the method a warrior can tank 15 spiders while the rest of the byn band are chipping them away, one by one.

[BrainySmurf]

Eyeball. Let's just say shield use is more effective then parry. Not by much. Maybe twice as much, or three times, or ten times as good?  I'm exaggerating, sorry. But shield use is the method a warrior can tank 15 spiders while the rest of the byn band are chipping them away, one by one.

Shield use is not as effective as parry. If you have to choose between one or the other, parry is far superior.

A fighter with jman shield and no parry branched holding a sword and shield will get utterly trashed by a fighter with only a weapon (no shield) and jman parry.

The reason the persistent myth of shield use as the ultimate style (archery battles not withstanding) has remained is because if you have parry and shield use, you get both rolls on top of your defense. It's not that block is AMAZING, it's just that you get a third chance (after dodge and parry fail) to escape damage, which is great. But it's because shield use is on top of parry, not better than parry.

Parry is worlds away better than shielduse.

[Brokkr]

Not really the place to stray into this conversation, as the topic has stopped really being relevant to the release notes.

[Bushranger]

My only point about the Hack skill is that with damaging armor becoming more (much more?) common I hope that the armor repair skill become more common as well. Currently you have to be a full merchant, an Armor crafter specialist or a mercenary subguild to have any chance of maintaining your armor more than simply emote rubbing it with a rag. Will my full time fighter, raider, enforcer or soldier, heavy combatants who would be expected to have and care for their armor, have access to the Armor Repair at a level to patch it at least long enough to last an expedition between having it in at Salarr for a full overhaul with this new Hack skill smashing it all up?

[Dar]

My only point about the Hack skill is that with damaging armor becoming more (much more?) common I hope that the armor repair skill become more common as well. Currently you have to be a full merchant, an Armor crafter specialist or a mercenary subguild to have any chance of maintaining your armor more than simply emote rubbing it with a rag. Will my full time fighter, raider, enforcer or soldier, heavy combatants who would be expected to have and care for their armor, have access to the Armor Repair at a level to patch it at least long enough to last an expedition between having it in at Salarr for a full overhaul with this new Hack skill smashing it all up?

Greater need for armor repair is one reason I actually like this idea.
But the armor repair with Salarr is usually so cheap, it's hardly worth wasting time with armor repair skill, instead of just sending the armor in for repair at the shop anyway.

[Dar]

Is there a penalty for failing the skill? Like kicking, bashing, disarming, all of that can be reversed. If you bash and fail, you go prone. If you disarm and fail bad, your own weapon goes flying. If you kick and the guy is so much better at you, you go prone as well.

What's the penalty for failing hack?

[SilkyBoi]

Don't forget the critical fail.

You slip and clumsily hack apart your tembo hide cuirass.

[mansa]

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1012588.html#msg1012588

Riposte
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Riposte

Oooo.  Combat Stances.   This is awesome.

I hope they eventually open up combat moves for sneaks.

[LucildaHunta]

I wish I had time to play. This looks very, very interesting.

[Large Hero]

I'm curious as to how riposte has been balanced with the other weapon types, considering that it can only be used with slashing. More attacks that are harder to block or parry are pretty powerful.

Maybe this just means that stuff like hack will be restricted to chopping/bludgeoning (is this already the case?), or the other weapon types will get their own special attack.

I guess we'll see how it unfolds! At any rate, I applaud adding new stuff to the game. I prefer adding things frequently as parts over time, like how hack and riposte have come in, as opposed to adding a bunch of commands at once after a very long design period.

Cool changes.

[Brokkr]

Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte

[Is Friday]

Great.

[Jozhole]

Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?

[Is Friday]

Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?

Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

[Krath]

Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?

Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

You're kidding right?!?!

[Veselka]

Is this again only available to new beta classes, or will warrior have access?

[cshoov]

For clarification, does entering the riposte stance limit you to only ripostes, or do you attack normally as well?

If it's the latter, I assume there's some sort of drawback, right? Otherwise why would anybody not always be in the riposte stance if they're able?

[Brokkr]

Riposte as a skill is on new class skill lists.  For folks that do not have it on their skill list, I believe it will work with some level of base ability, like hack.

Drawbacks, if any, can be discovered as one uses the skill.

[Veselka]

Ah, so based on other skills or abilities, it still has a base chance for success even if it's not on your skill list?

Just speaking from the standpoint of playing a "master warrior" that might suddenly be rolled by scrubs with access to skills that the master warrior can't utilize. That is helpful at least.

Thank you for the code work! Very cool to see things like stances and weapon based abilities added to the game. Super fresh.

[Krath]

I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?