Release Note discussion!

[Brokkr]

Shields were routinely battered into uselessness by several types of weapons.  I guess I had the Dane ax used by Vikings in my head, which absolutely could shred a shield.

The drawback is that it is a skill that needs to be activated by a command, and has an associated lag, rather than a passive that is always in effect enhancing the damage done to armor in locations that are hit.  I have to disagree with X-D on how often, or badly, shields get damaged.  When was the last time you saw an elf able to damage a shield routinely?

As for damaging worn armor, yes this is not as useful as destroying a shield, but it does have its uses.  Not least of which is being able to still be able to train the skill when no one will face you with their shield.

[X-D]

And the Dane axe was made of.....wait for it...STEEL! Verses wooden or leather shields. Comparing apples and earthworms here. But I guess you missed that part of my post about materials. That is alright, I will RE-state it. You think this skill/command makes sense, Fine, but since weapons and shield IG are made of the same things mostly, you should give the weapon a DRASTICALLY enhanced chance of damage/destruction. If I strike wood on wood, rock on rock, steel on steel diamond on diamond, they both take damage. Every single time. ALSO...That dane axe or other weapon stood a HIGH chance of getting stuck in the shield, rendering both items useless Mutual destruction IG terms. Does the hack skill/command have that?

Shields IG already take tons of damage, specially from kick and blunt weapons, I have to disagree with you Brokkr. One or two sparring matches can send a shield from new to cracked or worse easily. And I have had them do the same in gith/Halfling/raptor/mantis/kryl combat as well.

As to an elf damaging a shield, With kick, they can, easily, which is unrealistic but we live with it. As to with weapons, they should not be able to...not really, a weak strike is a weak strike.

Also....A shield is already being aimed at the weapon...I mean look, If I am using a shield, I am putting it between me and the weapon.  How is it that you now have some magickal skill that makes it so you suddenly do enhanced damage to the shield. I do not get it.

Oh Hey, I am an elf that has to wield my bone hatchet two handed, I cannot get past your sandcloth but if I actually target your Silt horror shield I can damage it. Yes, this makes total sense. I cannot damage you or your armor in normal combat but I have this kung-fu skill that lets me target your armor and not you and damage it.

[Veselka]

Is this a skill that should be showing up on a skill list, or is it branched ALA Ride? Or is it a passive skill that doesn't get better or worse? Thanks!

[Brokkr]

Aha!  But if that elf hacks your sand cloth armor to pieces, you will suffer the death of ten thousand cuts!

I get that you don't like it.  if it wasn't hack, it would be some other way to get past shields, rendering defensive behemoths vulnerable.

Hack is like threaten.  For now a bare bones skill that is possible for anyone, but as a skill is only on the new classes skill lists.

[X-D]

And now you make me hate it even more. Realism, Nope, Playability Nah...We must BREAK something because Oh hey, somebody chooses to be defensive and we cannot have that, Are we putting in something to harm the dual wielder or the etwo, Nah, just the guy that chooses defense. Will it be realistic in any way, Nope....deal with it, this makes our new everybody is equally poor Marxist new classes work.

If Shield users are somehow over powered then so are dual and etwo...is there plans to equally dumb them down?

Are there plans to add negs, realistic negs to Hack other then a short delay after? I mean really.. Oh, they get a delay after. yup, that offsets the money you have to pay to get your shit repaired. Any risk to their gear? Nah...

[RogueGunslinger]

I like the skill on paper. Don't really agree with X-D's complaints. I don't see this as a big nerf to shield users though I'd have to see it in use to know for sure.  I don't care if it is unrealistic or not, it's a cool game feature, something Arm already has a lot of and can use a lot more of. Anything that makes combat less stagnant is great.

Depending on how strong it is there are several possible balances that can be done. I think the ability should take up an attack round, and a critical failure should be a delay in your attacks in the form of your weapon getting stuck or lodged.

[Veselka]

Will it damage weapons to use it?

[Brokkr]

One thing to keep in mind is that skill is intended to interact in the dynamic of the new classes.

Where the heavy merchantile classes have shield use that is slightly better than current rangers, and all the other 12 classes are better at it than that.

I wouldn't put it in with the skillsets of the current guilds, it wouldn't add much.

[mansa]

If Shield users are somehow over powered then so are dual and etwo...is there plans to equally dumb them down?

Disarm?

[azuriolinist]

Will it damage weapons to use it?

I love the skill addition. I'd love it even more if the material type of weapon versus shield were taken into account, so that appropriate damage is dealt out to either or both.

[Veselka]

One thing to keep in mind is that skill is intended to interact in the dynamic of the new classes.

Where the heavy merchantile classes have shield use that is slightly better than current rangers, and all the other 12 classes are better at it than that.

I wouldn't put it in with the skillsets of the current guilds, it wouldn't add much.

The only reason I asked is for the long lived Warriors in game that will suddenly be outmatched by New Kids On the Block with the ability to hack their armor. I suppose this may be as intended, to shoe people out of the old classes and into the new classes, but it feels a little 'meh, and also contributes to guild-sniffing (Particularly in combat-based clans where the people who can 'hack' will be immediately compared to people who cannot 'hack')'.  Would it be possible to grant it to the Warrior class, as well as the new classes?  If the old classes are going to be phased out anyways, eventually, it may be a nice stop gap while the Beta Classes are still in Beta.

I totally understand that more (most, all) work is being put into the new Classes  -- That makes perfect sense. But as it's still being tested, who knows when it will be done? Some of us may be rolling the old classes until such a time where that isn't possible, depending on our karma and wish to be involved with the beta.

[Hauwke]

There will almost definately be at least ons or two Warrior guild PCs that will last for AGES past the switchover to the new guild system.

Plus, I think it would be good to see what the Hack skill can do in the meantime.

[Armaddict]

"I'd like to see more weapon and armor degradation in the game."

*skill idea goes in specifically to damage armor and shields*

"Fuck this game, this is terrible."


Hope that failure has at least a chance to damage the weapon.  I'll look forward to people getting pissed they can't hit me and taking it out on my shield instead with many flowery emotes.

[stoicreader]

Armor, realistically, should only be able to take a few hits before being made ragged.

It would need REGULAR repair between battles. Buckles and straps go first from just marching. Romans were regularly repairing armor without battle, just from military marching drills. Also, armor is extremely taxing to wear. Halloween memories anyone? The Spartian warriors would maintain armor on a daily basis.

With that said... Armor should dramatically lower max stamina and lower stun and get damaged from just walking around. And it doesn't do any of this.

This new code against armor is GREAT. It is a wonderful tool that allows an aggressor to attack without worry about injuring the opponent. This is something one would do to demonstrate that "You cannot defend yourself, you are a child, give up."

Brilliant.

[Eyeball]

What was the mainstay of being a warrior? It was the ability to stay in a fight and bear the brunt of it, between parrying and shield use.

This is a step toward taking that way. Toward eliminating the "great warrior" and the ability to stand out as a fighter.

If even heavy merchants are going to have a degree of weapons skill, the gap between warrior (heavy combatant?) and the other classes between heavy merchants narrows even further.

Sorcerers and elementalists pared down and now warriors? People calling for the elimination of PC half giants. Mantis PCs long gone. The days of heroes are truly over. 

[Nao]

What was the mainstay of being a warrior? It was the ability to stay in a fight and bear the brunt of it, between parrying and shield use.

This is a step toward taking that way. Toward eliminating the "great warrior" and the ability to stand out as a fighter.

If even heavy merchants are going to have a degree of weapons skill, the gap between warrior (heavy combatant?) and the other classes between heavy merchants narrows even further.

Sorcerers and elementalists pared down and now warriors? People calling for the elimination of PC half giants. Mantis PCs long gone. The days of heroes are truly over. 

When is the last time you got challenged by a burglar, on a warrior? Not to mention that the new heavy combat classes end up with higher caps on weapons than warriors.

[Veselka]

Will NPCs have this skill as well?

[RogueGunslinger]

Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

[Eyeball]

Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Numbers will be more important than skill. A few lackluster warriors will take a master warrior down by hacking away his shield and armor.

And what is a "warrior" with the new class system anyhow? How many classes will have the hack skill?

[Veselka]

Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Because Warriors don't have the skill? Just Combat-New-Classes.

[BrainySmurf]

Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Numbers will be more important than skill. A few lackluster warriors will take a master warrior down by hacking away his shield and armor.

As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

[Molten Heart]

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[Eyeball]

As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

If a warrior has to rely on dodge for defense, how is he any different from a ranger minus wilderness skills.

[BrainySmurf]

As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

If a warrior has to rely on dodge for defense, how is he any different from a ranger minus wilderness skills.

In several key ways.

Firstly, a warrior with his shield missing will still have his weapon, which will continue to parry. A warrior has higher parry and parry is the de facto most important defensive skill* in the game. Secondly, a warrior's hidden offense and defense have a steeper trajectory of growth than a ranger's, and he/she will be dodging more effectively than a similarly trained ranger. Additionally, because their higher offense and defense growth, they will also naturally avoid the hack to begin with better than a similarly trained ranger and are less likely to lose their shield in the first place. Thirdly, a warrior has access to a number of different skills -- disarm your opponent's axe to delay their hacking if you find it unsatisfactory.

Suggesting hack makes a warrior = ranger in combat capacity is ridiculous. Warriors are not singularly defined by their ability to handle shields so removing the shield from play =! reducing a warrior to ranger status. Hack is a fine addition to the game. Shields should not be uncounterable when other combat styles are, and now they no longer enjoy that status.

*Edit: at least those appearing on the skill-sheet. An argument could be made for hidden defense being more critical.

Edit # 2: I reread my first post and your reply, Eyeball, and perhaps the misunderstanding is not the same. A warrior isn't *relying* on dodge in that scenario of a master warrior dodging 4 opponents. Dodge is the first line of defense. If you're fighting 4 people and dodging them, that means you're dancing on their asses and just styling them. If you're frequently parrying you're in a bit of danger and if you constantly have to block (assuming you have a shield equipped), it's worse still and you're probably going to eat several hits in between those blocks. I wasn't saying the warrior was relying on dodge. I'm saying a 50 day warrior is so much better than four 10 day opponents, he only dodges, never parries or blocks.

[Grapes]

Keep in mind, Brokkr just mentioned the new classes will have higher caps on their shield use than an oldschool ranger. You may be glad for a hack option when this all eventually plays out in game, in mass. Having effectively used shield use on several burglars, I can both applaud the general shield-use higher caps, as well as a counter.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind, parry is generally shit for deflecting arrows... otherwise everyone and their mother would etwo.