Armageddon General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 10:32:07 AM

Title: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 10:32:07 AM
January 16th, 2017 release notes (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg975905.html#msg975905)

I'm real interested to see the tablet/vial workup change. The color addition was quite a while ago, and this looks like its really going to make things "easier" to deal with. Now if only we knew what half the cures did!

Also, dyeing for items! While I know I still can't wear my hot pink and purple scrab shell, this is also great!

Keep up the excellent work, coders! Really good stuff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 16, 2017, 10:40:40 AM

I'm really excited to see where this goes. Like with other crafting?

For instance, craft a bone saber and a diamond ... You set a diamond in the pommel of a bone saber.

>look saber
A diamond-set bone saber has a diamond set in the pommel.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 16, 2017, 10:40:53 AM
Fuck yeah.

That is all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 10:42:33 AM
It sure SOUNDS like recipes will have maybe a dynamic slot in them... so particular swords COULD accept a "gemstone" type and be a "diamond-pommelled sword" or a "sapphire-pommelled sword". Which would be rockstar in itself.

But to add it to other crafts, or have someone say "I want to be dressed in White and Gold for this event" and someone being able to ACTUALLY make white and gold and trim and everything without needing to know the recipe for that one dress... oh man.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: manipura on January 16, 2017, 10:53:12 AM
Is there still no way to dye something brown?  Brown has always been so underrepresented.

Really, if you are using colours/dyes that don't mix to create another shade, it's more likely that they'll be making brown than grey. 

I think these changes are pretty great though and despite my nitpicking above, I look forward to seeing the changes in game. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WithSprinkles on January 16, 2017, 10:55:20 AM
There's brown dye in game. I forget where to get it, though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on January 16, 2017, 11:09:14 AM
Kagor race added.

Karma level 7, I assume?  Still not as codedly OP as Vestric.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LauraMars on January 16, 2017, 11:13:15 AM
CRAFTING =

(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on January 16, 2017, 11:14:05 AM
http://armageddon.org/help/view/kagor
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 16, 2017, 11:23:37 AM
Krath-damned sand badgers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
I'm confused about the archery change.  Is that still a skill?  Or will there be four new skills in its place?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 16, 2017, 01:06:55 PM
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
I'm confused about the archery change.  Is that still a skill?  Or will there be four new skills in its place?

The archery skill exists as it did before.

We have added 3 new skills
  crossbow use
  sling use
  blowgun use
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:08:41 PM
Meaning (I assume) that learning to shoot a bow has -less- bearing on learning how to shoot a crossbow. Archery skill is over all of them, but if you learn how to shoot with a slingshot, you won't have as much skill as if you learned to shoot with a bow.

Which I like.

If not. Boo.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:08:58 PM
Cool, thanks.  I'm psyched about blowguns and poisoned darts.   8) 8)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:09:50 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:08:41 PM
Meaning (I assume) that learning to shoot a bow has -nearly- no bearing on learning how to shoot a crossbow. Archery skill is over all of them, but if you learn how to shoot with a slingshot, you won't have as much skill as if you learned to shoot with a bow.

Which I like.

If not. Boo.

He just said there are 3 new skills.  Archery is shooting a bow.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:11:15 PM
Ooh, even better.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:13:29 PM
Yeah, I'm digging it.  I hope crossbows are legit at close range, now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 16, 2017, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on January 16, 2017, 01:13:29 PM
Yeah, I'm digging it.  I hope crossbows are legit at close range, now.

At LEAST with no lag after shooting, you can pop someone and take off if need be. Or Shoot and Drop, pull out three more hand crossbows and go on a rampage ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on January 16, 2017, 01:16:44 PM
Awesome changes!  Thank you for the work!

Question on this:
Quote
-The DB and items saved into the game have been updated for shootable weapons and their ammo.  Items on your characters have not.  If your shootable weapon or its ammo are not working correctly wish up for a new version of the item(s)

1. If I have a quiver with a bunch of arrows in them over my shoulder, should I assume these will not work?

2. Can I just leave the quiver in the room and type 'save' to get them to reset instead of wishing up?  Or is wishing up the only route?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on January 16, 2017, 02:14:25 PM
Items (bows/slings/crossbows/bolts/arrows/sling bullets) should all be updating as they go along. If you notice anything odd, wish up and we'll take a look.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 16, 2017, 03:05:23 PM
Are the new Archery, sling use ect. skills hidden or will they be on our skill list?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on January 16, 2017, 04:43:28 PM
Quote from: Feco on January 16, 2017, 11:23:37 AM
Krath-damned sand badgers.

So what if you're 8x his size and likely to kill him in a single hit?  Sand badger don't care.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 16, 2017, 05:18:36 PM
I thought that kagor page already existed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 16, 2017, 05:20:54 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 16, 2017, 05:18:36 PM
I thought that kagor page already existed?

Me too.  I think for those of us that aren't city dwellers we see them frequently anyway.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 16, 2017, 05:45:29 PM
I think maybe they weren't a coded separate race before.

Will different guilds/sub guilds have access to different strains of archery? I.E., bounty hunter gets crossbow, burglar sling, etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on January 16, 2017, 06:15:56 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on January 16, 2017, 03:05:23 PM
Are the new Archery, sling use ect. skills hidden or will they be on our skill list?

I'm really interested in the answer to this. And does the fletchery skill govern the ability to make all of the types of ammo and weapons, or are their associated sling making, blowgun crafting skills? Should I expect to see these skills on my skill list if I previously had archery?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on January 16, 2017, 06:27:50 PM
Reiloth has the right of it re: kagor. You should see minimal change on the race on your side, it was mainly for our purposes (though the skinfile for them and anakore was also updated). The only real change you might notice is their tracks no longer resemble tregil tracks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on January 16, 2017, 06:32:55 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on January 16, 2017, 07:52:51 PM
I'm loving how such a massive change just gets dropped like that. No half a year announcement, no hints, no blogs. Makes me wonder what kinds of wonders they've got cooking on ... ooph ... everything else.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on January 16, 2017, 08:33:53 PM
Quote from: Dar on January 16, 2017, 07:52:51 PM
I'm loving how such a massive change just gets dropped like that. No half a year announcement, no hints, no blogs. Makes me wonder what kinds of wonders they've got cooking on ... ooph ... everything else.

*wiggles eyebrows*
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 16, 2017, 10:18:57 PM
The four skills ('archery', 'blowgun use', 'crossbow use', 'sling use'), should start appearing on guild/subguild trees as the week goes on.

There's code in place (for decades) that ensures any skills that appear on your character's guild/subguild tree that your character doesn't currently have get added at login.

With regards to crafting for arrows, bullets, darts, and bolts - nothing has changed, there.   Bullets can still be foraged/crafted while arrows/bolts/darts can still be crafted off of fletchery.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 16, 2017, 10:28:25 PM

Did slings get boosted any or are they still kind of gimpy?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 16, 2017, 10:38:06 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 16, 2017, 10:18:57 PM
The four skills ('archery', 'blowgun use', 'crossbow use', 'sling use'), should start appearing on guild/subguild trees as the week goes on.

There's code in place (for decades) that ensures any skills that appear on your character's guild/subguild tree that your character doesn't currently have get added at login.

With regards to crafting for arrows, bullets, darts, and bolts - nothing has changed, there.   Bullets can still be foraged/crafted while arrows/bolts/darts can still be crafted off of fletchery.

Will the helpfiles be updated to let us know which guild/subguild gets which skill? Or can you info dump here? Or both?

Thanks Nessalin and Nathvaan for all the hard work. Truly impressive, you are what make this game dynamic and reactive and constantly competing with even the strongest multi-thousand/million dollar games out there.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 17, 2017, 01:55:07 AM
Are these already in effect? I just tried the whole craft thing with usual cure ingredients and it just didn't work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 17, 2017, 02:04:54 AM
I also happened to notice that brew is no longer able to produce candles as it was once able. The recipes seem to be completely gone now. Is this intended?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on January 17, 2017, 06:08:26 AM
Quote from: ChibiTama on January 17, 2017, 02:04:54 AM
I also happened to notice that brew is no longer able to produce candles as it was once able. The recipes seem to be completely gone now. Is this intended?

I have tested a few candles and they seem to work just fine.  I think this is likely a one off issue.  Can you please open up a request with logs of what you are trying and we will be glad to have a look.

Quote from: ChibiTama on January 17, 2017, 01:55:07 AM
Are these already in effect? I just tried the whole craft thing with usual cure ingredients and it just didn't work.

Yes, this is already in effect.  Please include specific logs in the request about this as well. We can look at both things at once.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on January 17, 2017, 06:22:40 AM
Quote from: Reiloth on January 16, 2017, 10:38:06 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 16, 2017, 10:18:57 PM
The four skills ('archery', 'blowgun use', 'crossbow use', 'sling use'), should start appearing on guild/subguild trees as the week goes on.

There's code in place (for decades) that ensures any skills that appear on your character's guild/subguild tree that your character doesn't currently have get added at login.

With regards to crafting for arrows, bullets, darts, and bolts - nothing has changed, there.   Bullets can still be foraged/crafted while arrows/bolts/darts can still be crafted off of fletchery.

Will the helpfiles be updated to let us know which guild/subguild gets which skill? Or can you info dump here? Or both?

Thanks Nessalin and Nathvaan for all the hard work. Truly impressive, you are what make this game dynamic and reactive and constantly competing with even the strongest multi-thousand/million dollar games out there.

When the skills are in place they will be visible on the skills list, in the help files and likely announced as well (perhaps here or in release notes).  As Nessalin stated they will be added in the coming weeks.

Thank you for the kind words.  We, like everyone, are just passionate about game and use our skills to do what we can to continue to push the game toward a better/more feature rich state.  As to competing with other MMOs, MUDs were here first.  I think they are just competing with us! ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 17, 2017, 06:28:24 AM
Upon giving this change some serious thought, this will really give some serious power to master archery, since it will take a lot more to get it up to the max, I suspect making it much rarer (hopefully) and thus even more intimidating when some rocks up and neck shots your two buddies and asks for your boots.

Having a dedicated slings skill is going to be awesome because Ive actually kind of wondered why it wasnt its own already, its a very different motion to shooting a bow. Maybe it will be used now as an actual weapon, maybe for non lethal things or something. Never been hit with one so I dont know if thats a thing that exists but sweet if it does.

Crafting changes sound awesome and I actually suspect I might enjoy it if/when I eventually get around to rolling up my first ever merchant.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 17, 2017, 09:20:33 AM
I'm just so excited to see a potential change in crossbows. With no delay on shoot, it'll mean having a one-shot crossbow become so much more exhilarating. Especially because at "close range" they should be quite powerful. Pop a couple "hand crossbows", fire off a couple shots before engaging in the city? Take out an armored soldier? C'mon, guys!

Also dynamic crafting. Oh my god. Still preparing my soul for this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Sedora on January 17, 2017, 10:21:25 AM
I'm looking forward to all the dyeing. But in light of this update I think staff might want to look into consolidating black dye. Even some longterm players I've met IC don't realize that there are two different blacks that essentially function the same. As a longterm merchant player, though, I know well this anguish.

a packet of bitter black dye - Used in some MCs, but the only cloth it actually dyes is sandcloth.

a package of black dye - Used in some MCs I'm sure, though I haven't found any. Also used to dye linen, cotton and silk.

My main worry here is whether one of the two isn't included in this update. If one didn't, with lots of people not knowing there are two and not stalking the GDB, people might get tricked into thinking black isn't possible cause they bought/crafted the wrong one.


Another thing I noticed is that a lot of the dyes I had prior to the update were turned into a packet of bitter dye. Should I send in a report with a log of that or is it something you guys are aware of?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on January 17, 2017, 10:51:43 AM
Very awesome nice!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: Sedora on January 17, 2017, 10:21:25 AM
Another thing I noticed is that a lot of the dyes I had prior to the update were turned into a packet of bitter dye. Should I send in a report with a log of that or is it something you guys are aware of?

Wish up asking for a new instance of the object.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: Sedora on January 17, 2017, 10:21:25 AM
I'm looking forward to all the dyeing. But in light of this update I think staff might want to look into consolidating black dye. Even some longterm players I've met IC don't realize that there are two different blacks that essentially function the same. As a longterm merchant player, though, I know well this anguish.

a packet of bitter black dye - Used in some MCs, but the only cloth it actually dyes is sandcloth.

a package of black dye - Used in some MCs I'm sure, though I haven't found any. Also used to dye linen, cotton and silk.

My main worry here is whether one of the two isn't included in this update. If one didn't, with lots of people not knowing there are two and not stalking the GDB, people might get tricked into thinking black isn't possible cause they bought/crafted the wrong one.

This is the exact scenario the new system should prevent happening in the future.

Both of these will be updated as we go through the database so they can be used with the new dynamic crafting system, which will mean both can be used in dyeing materials.   We won't be keeping only one of them.

Once we've reach a certain point of confidence in the new system we'll be deprecating the old recipes as they're no longer needed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on January 17, 2017, 11:06:17 AM
So exciting! Will this change how MCs work?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LauraMars on January 17, 2017, 11:38:18 AM
NESSALIN IS FIRE

(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)(http://i.imgur.com/0tHN8ap.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 17, 2017, 12:39:55 PM
Quote from: Miradus on January 16, 2017, 10:28:25 PM

Did slings get boosted any or are they still kind of gimpy?

Slings are pretty strong.   Not really great for pvp, but not bad for pve. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 17, 2017, 01:02:50 PM

The last time I used one, I whacked a tregil 8 times and he didn't go down. I can understand it not bringing down something bigger, but that's like hunting a rabbit ... which is what I'd think slings were good at.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on January 17, 2017, 01:10:54 PM
You can kill just about everything with a sling, maybe excluding some of the high stun creatures like a Mek, bahamet. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 17, 2017, 01:11:18 PM
Also, "Sling" and "Slingshot" are very different things.

It could take a while to kill a rabbit with a slingshot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 17, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
I can't seem to get the brew crafting working. I'll send in a log once I have a chance to experiment more.

I feel like maybe I'm just doing the syntax wrong. Am I doing the syntax wrong? What should it be?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 17, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
I can't seem to get the brew crafting working. I'll send in a log once I have a chance to experiment more.

I feel like maybe I'm just doing the syntax wrong. Am I doing the syntax wrong? What should it be?

Crafting poisons and cures should work the same as brew did.  All recipes require two or three herb items.

> craft herb1 herb2
(list of recipes displayed)

> craft herb1 herb2 herb3
(list of recipes displayed)

Once you've decided on a recipe you'll have to use the # option for crafting, not the name.
> craft herb1 herb2 into #1
(this will work)

> craft herb1 herb2 into lump of green mush
(this will NOT work)


Sending along a log is always helpful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 17, 2017, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: Miradus on January 17, 2017, 01:02:50 PM

The last time I used one, I whacked a tregil 8 times and he didn't go down. I can understand it not bringing down something bigger, but that's like hunting a rabbit ... which is what I'd think slings were good at.



I've planted at least that many arrows from a high value bow in to a tregil to similar affect. Skill has a lot to do with it of course. Slings will kill NPCs (and I wouldn't recommend actually getting hit by one), but they'll probably do it slower and you won't be able to poison. Their big advantage is more readily available ammunition.

Will these new Weapon skills have varying rates of skill gain? Is it easier to master a Crossbow than a bow?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 17, 2017, 02:48:16 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 17, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
I can't seem to get the brew crafting working. I'll send in a log once I have a chance to experiment more.

I feel like maybe I'm just doing the syntax wrong. Am I doing the syntax wrong? What should it be?

For those used to brewing, it is worth nothing that its item targeting was inconsistent with how the rest of the game works.

Namely, in brew if you have
> i
a blue herb
a green herb
a red herb

You could brew them with
> brew herb herb herb

With craft you would have to type
> craft herb 2.herb 3.herb
or
> craft red.herb blue.herb green.herb
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on January 17, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
Hmm, I'm interested to see where these skills are going to end up... Now I'm going to want to store to see if this effects my favorite guild.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 17, 2017, 04:52:36 PM
Dear Staff,

If you give me master crossbow use, I promise to only use it to kill everyone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: purpledragon on January 18, 2017, 12:24:25 AM
will current characters skilled at archery have their skills transferred to all new types (having all @ the current level of archery), or will new types be set to 0?
if latter, will it be possible to switch to submit request and transfer skill points from archery to crossbows?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on January 18, 2017, 01:46:41 AM
Interesting change.

I see there is a strength/Stamina component for loading crossbows. However as per the help-files(shown below), does agility still rule them all? Also with exception of equipment, are all skills are equal across the board? Despite the story of David and Goliath, I have a hard time believing a slingshot would have the same long range impact as an arrow or bolt to an armored head and neck. Just wondering if the difference between how the skills perform (other than delay times) are going to be reflected with equipment costs/weight?   

Quote
Agility
(Attributes)

Agility is an ability score that measures all types of physical coordination and swiftness. Hand-eye coordination, reaction time, balance, depth perception, and reflexes are all types of characteristics measured by agility.

The agility score is used to determine speed of reaction in combat, missile fire bonuses, ability to dodge objects, escape capture, avoid dangerous spell effects, leap across distances, climb walls, and picking pockets of unsuspecting bystanders.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on January 18, 2017, 04:59:38 AM
Quote from: Dresan on January 18, 2017, 01:46:41 AM
Interesting change.

I see there is a strength/Stamina component for loading crossbows. However as per the help-files(shown below), does agility still rule them all? Also with exception of equipment, are all skills are equal across the board? Despite the story of David and Goliath, I have a hard time believing a slingshot would have the same long range impact as an arrow or bolt to an armored head and neck. Just wondering if the difference between how the skills perform (other than delay times) are going to be reflected with equipment costs/weight?   

Quote
Agility
(Attributes)

Agility is an ability score that measures all types of physical coordination and swiftness. Hand-eye coordination, reaction time, balance, depth perception, and reflexes are all types of characteristics measured by agility.

The agility score is used to determine speed of reaction in combat, missile fire bonuses, ability to dodge objects, escape capture, avoid dangerous spell effects, leap across distances, climb walls, and picking pockets of unsuspecting bystanders.

There is also a strength/stamina component for firing a bow. These have been part of archery for a very long time. The difference is that a crossbow checks strength, to see if the string can be pulled, and subtracts some stamina when it is loaded. It means that unlike a bow a crossbow can be fired with no strength check, no stamina cost and no delay. (Which means a weak elf, merchant or noble can fire the most powerful crossbow so long as someone else loads it. I can totally see a noble "hunting" with a powerful silt-horror crossbow that their manservant loads for them between shots.)

* "Hunting" means shooting at beggars from the balcony overlooking Meleth's Circle :P
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:11:07 AM
January 18th, 2017 Release (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg976126.html#new)

This should address the bugs reported, so far, with the new crafting changes.

Many thanks to those that included logs in their Game Bug requests.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:14:16 AM
Quote from: purpledragon on January 18, 2017, 12:24:25 AM
will current characters skilled at archery have their skills transferred to all new types (having all @ the current level of archery), or will new types be set to 0?

The new skills with be 0 until they are added to guilds and subguilds, at which point character skills will be bumped up when they login to their guild/subguild starting skill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
Quote from: Miradus on January 17, 2017, 01:02:50 PM

The last time I used one, I whacked a tregil 8 times and he didn't go down. I can understand it not bringing down something bigger, but that's like hunting a rabbit ... which is what I'd think slings were good at.

Sling damage is based on (at least) bullet quality and hit location.  I've killed fairly large critters (humanoid-range HP) with 5 stones before (3 head/neck/wrist shots, 2 body).  I'm pretty sure I've 2-shotted tregils and jozhals before with a couple of back-to-back neck shots.

Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.

Game bug request with log, please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 17, 2017, 04:52:36 PM
Dear Staff,

If you give me master crossbow use, I promise to only use it to kill everyone.
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/1400x931121.jpg?w=748&h=496&crop=1)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 11:20:45 AM
Quote from: manipura on January 18, 2017, 11:02:21 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.

Game bug request with log, please.

Sent.

I should note that this appears to be an issue with particular items in shops and inventories.

I had a bow that wasn't assessing properly, and it also wouldn't shoot properly.  A staff member replaced it with a new bow, and now everything is working properly (as far as I can tell).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 18, 2017, 11:22:46 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:58:38 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 17, 2017, 04:52:36 PM
Dear Staff,

If you give me master crossbow use, I promise to only use it to kill everyone.
(https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/1400x931121.jpg?w=748&h=496&crop=1)

I would be perfectly alright if a loaded heavy crossbow, shooting someone in the neck or the head while in the same room, caused massive damage with a knock-down potential.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 11:25:15 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 11:20:45 AM
Quote from: manipura on January 18, 2017, 11:02:21 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 18, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 18, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
Question:  what's the deal with strength vs. bows now?  When I ass -v bows currently, it doesn't tell me whether the pull is too strong/too weak anymore.

Game bug request with log, please.

Sent.

I should note that this appears to be an issue with particular items in shops and inventories.

I had a bow that wasn't assessing properly, and it also wouldn't shoot properly.  A staff member replaced it with a new bow, and now everything is working properly (as far as I can tell).

....game bug request with log, please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on January 18, 2017, 01:06:19 PM
salarri should have a booth with a mechanism inside it that, for a fee, would auto load any crossbow with a bolt of your choice. We can call that mechanism a dwarf.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 18, 2017, 01:17:15 PM
Quote from: Dar on January 18, 2017, 01:06:19 PM
salarri should have a booth with a mechanism inside it that, for a fee, would auto load any crossbow with a bolt of your choice. We can call that mechanism a dwarf.

I'm imagining a minor merchant house idea based almost solely on providing HEAVY-pull crossbows, already loaded and ready, to people in the streets.

"Tired of your boss being an overbearing asshole? Think -you- can do better, telling grebbers what to do? Put a bolt in his ass!"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 18, 2017, 02:18:10 PM
I remain skeptical that Zalanthan crossbows would be all that good, at least relative to normal bows given the materials both have to work with.

I do someday want to have a big game hunter who has a native gun dwarf tasked with carrying and loading all of my crossbows, however.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: wizturbo on January 18, 2017, 02:21:47 PM
I'm loving all these releases.  We're living in a new golden era of Armageddon's development.

I find myself checking the forums on a daily basis mostly because of the excitement for what might've been added. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 18, 2017, 11:23:06 PM
Will 'a crumbling red tablet' do the same thing as 'a red tablet'?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 18, 2017, 11:35:23 PM
I sent in a new bug log, staffers. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 19, 2017, 09:22:40 AM
Looking to test all these cures and poisons, in game. Breeds and elves, inquire within!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 19, 2017, 10:06:51 AM
Are legacy cure tablets still functional?

Because it would be mildly annoying to suddenly "find out IC," so to speak.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 19, 2017, 10:10:29 AM
A non-code issue with cure/poison crafted has been fixed.  Specifically the issue where most any cure/poison crafted was making red mashes, tablets, and vials.

The issue with yellow herbs making grey mashes will be fixed in tomorrow morning's reboot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 19, 2017, 10:16:16 AM
Old tablets and cures will continue to work as they always did.

The ability to make them will be removed once we've attained some confidence in feature parity between craft & brew and that the system acts as intended.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 12:22:21 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 19, 2017, 10:10:29 AM
A non-code issue with cure/poison crafted has been fixed.  Specifically the issue where most any cure/poison crafted was making red mashes, tablets, and vials.

The issue with yellow herbs making grey mashes will be fixed in tomorrow morning's reboot.

I'm still getting this red tablet issue with mashes that I made yesterday.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on January 20, 2017, 12:47:32 AM
I'm seeing I can make some things but not other things. Maybe I'm using an incorrect syntax, or don't have the right skill level but I'm seeing I can't make some of the things I can with the legacy brew system.

Will the same items still be brewable in the usual way, just using the new syntax or is there a fundamental change in how new brewed items are made? Will some items no longer be brewable?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 02:28:59 AM
Is there supposed to be such a high fail rate on the new brew code?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 03:18:42 AM
Quote from: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 02:28:59 AM
Is there supposed to be such a high fail rate on the new brew code?

The only things I've succeeded at making with it are the soaps you could before the change. After several fails on the first of what are apparently MULTIPLE steps now, I just gave up and went back to before. When most ingredients are costly and hard to find in duplicate unless you are personally out riding around for them, it simply becomes more efficient to stay with the old which takes twice as many ingredients (I assume, again, I've not gotten a mash to work at all, let alone steps after it), than to ruin 2-3x the materials that one tablet the old way uses.

I guess I'll just be screwed when it's phased out, but until then, I'll actually make stuff, so there's that at least. >.> I like the concept of the brew changes, but I'd have to succeed with... well... any of it... to even guess at how I like their implementation. Although, with jman ability, it's kinda disheartening to ruin half a dozen of half a dozen tries at just the first STEP of a new system.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 20, 2017, 05:40:06 AM
I mean maybe it will function similar to cooking now, until you get near master you cant even cook a steak.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 08:29:26 AM
Quote from: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 12:22:21 AM
I'm still getting this red tablet issue with mashes that I made yesterday.

Game Bug report, preferably with a log, would be helpful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on January 20, 2017, 08:30:34 AM
Is there anything stopping someone from master-crafting up a trench-coat/bandoleer combo and having 8 loaded hand-crossbows draw-able from within it?

Pre-loaded crossbows could make for some seriously devastating damage potential if there's truly no delay.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 08:32:04 AM
Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on January 20, 2017, 12:47:32 AM
I'm seeing I can make some things but not other things. Maybe I'm using an incorrect syntax, or don't have the right skill level but I'm seeing I can't make some of the things I can with the legacy brew system.

Will the same items still be brewable in the usual way, just using the new syntax or is there a fundamental change in how new brewed items are made? Will some items no longer be brewable?

This is vague and impossible to reply to.  A gamebug, preferably wth a log, and some context would be helpful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 09:05:33 AM
Exaplantion of Cure/Poison crafting (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52152.0.html)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:20:34 AM
Maybe with more fails and more material consumption, people won't walk around with a dozen cures that cost a small, against a rare poison that costs six time that for one application.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 09:39:49 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:20:34 AM
Maybe with more fails and more material consumption, people won't walk around with a dozen cures that cost a small, against a rare poison that costs six time that for one application.

Doubtful. People don't collect X, Y or Z as protection because they don't see a point in it. At best it will only affect newbies who can't find the stuff to start with, and new pcs who are already at a mass disadvantage against longer lived pcs. If you think it will change anything for longer lived pcs (the ones you might actually NEED poison to counter the combat skills of), I think you're kidding yourself. I don't mean that in a mean way, either. But seriously, it's not going to change a practice that is what it is because it's what people find they need to be/do/work effectively. All it's going to do is be more timesink for the same ends. People used to carry one set of cures and now they carry five or six. They adapted to the change to counter the change to make cures less of a guarantee by carrying more cures rather than just the 1 still and maybe dying to it. And in the exact same way that they will this one. Because it's human nature.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Schrodingers Cat on January 20, 2017, 10:01:39 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 08:32:04 AM
Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on January 20, 2017, 12:47:32 AM
I'm seeing I can make some things but not other things. Maybe I'm using an incorrect syntax, or don't have the right skill level but I'm seeing I can't make some of the things I can with the legacy brew system.

Will the same items still be brewable in the usual way, just using the new syntax or is there a fundamental change in how new brewed items are made? Will some items no longer be brewable?

This is vague and impossible to reply to.  A gamebug, preferably wth a log, and some context would be helpful.

Should we be able to craft the same effective cures/poisons with the new system using the same starting materials used to brew the same poisons/cures used to make them in the old system? I can't and I'm not sure if it's a bug or because of low skill level. I'll send some logs when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:06:48 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 20, 2017, 08:30:34 AM
Is there anything stopping someone from master-crafting up a trench-coat/bandoleer combo and having 8 loaded hand-crossbows draw-able from within it?

Pre-loaded crossbows could make for some seriously devastating damage potential if there's truly no delay.

I'm sure, like "use tail" while riding a Sunback, this would be abused, and for an incredibly short time.


However, like a regular crossbow, I'd be fine if someone can fire off two shots without delay, before starting combat. If they drop the crossbows in between. But if you're in the same room I'm -totally- fine with it still initiating combat. At a distance, though? I can't imagine the kind of problem five no-lag shots can do to something.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on January 20, 2017, 10:10:14 AM
I'd love to hear how you store a loaded crossbow without the bolt falling out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 10:14:19 AM
Quote from: whitt on January 20, 2017, 10:10:14 AM
I'd love to hear how you store a loaded crossbow without the bolt falling out.

Much in the same way you live your whole life and never have to take a shit or sleep.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on January 20, 2017, 10:29:28 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 10:14:19 AM
Quote from: whitt on January 20, 2017, 10:10:14 AM
I'd love to hear how you store a loaded crossbow without the bolt falling out.

Much in the same way you live your whole life and never have to take a shit or sleep.

I suppose so?  Yet there are certain items in game, when you try to put them in a pack for storage they spill.  I'd think crossbow would behave similarly, staying cocked, but not loaded as the bolt would fall out if someone were to sling the crossbow or shove it in a bag or pack.  Then again, we don't require folks to string and unstring their bows for storage, so maybe I'm just overthinking.  Still - someone yanking fully loaded crossbows out of their duster, off their belt, from over their shoulder, and then three from their backpack strikes me as a bit immersion breaking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.

Honestly it sounds to me like the poison costs too much then. Because you're not going to make people collect less cures, and making them more expensive won't prevent people from getting them, nor will making them more difficult to find. It'll only stretch the vulnerable window some.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on January 20, 2017, 10:38:44 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.

Honestly it sounds to me like the poison costs too much then. Because you're not going to make people collect less cures, and making them more expensive won't prevent people from getting them, nor will making them more difficult to find. It'll only stretch the vulnerable window some.

I agree with the above concern about vulnerable newbies, but at the same time...

It'd require a lot of thinking through to make sure the balance is right (and right now the balance is pretty ok), but I would love to see: both poisons and cures spoil/expire after a certain amount of time -- I'm thinking: poisons) after an IG month if unapplied or an IG year if applied; cures) after an IG year if tablet; 2 IG years if vial.


Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 10:47:39 AM
Quote from: nauta on January 20, 2017, 10:38:44 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm still all for people having packages of cures ready for consumption, but some cures cost like 20 coins, while the poison it takes to even make them necessary are 300 coins PER APPLICATION.

That's way more than the acceptable ounce of prevention being worth the pound of cure.

Honestly it sounds to me like the poison costs too much then. Because you're not going to make people collect less cures, and making them more expensive won't prevent people from getting them, nor will making them more difficult to find. It'll only stretch the vulnerable window some.

I agree with the above concern about vulnerable newbies, but at the same time...

It'd require a lot of thinking through to make sure the balance is right (and right now the balance is pretty ok), but I would love to see: both poisons and cures spoil/expire after a certain amount of time -- I'm thinking: poisons) after an IG month if unapplied or an IG year if applied; cures) after an IG year if tablet; 2 IG years if vial.

This is the line of thinking with the mash/tablet/vial system.  That over time their effectiveness would wane until they are eventually worthless (and would have text to indicate so the same way foods do).

A mash would be most effective but has the shortest lifespan.

A vial would be medium effectiveness with the longest lifespan.  Requires an empty vial so there's a cost component and size issue.

A tablet would be medium effectiveness with a medium lifespan.

This is not coded, or even planned coding, yet, but that is some of the thinking behind the progression of...

herbs->mash
herbs->mash->tablet
herbs->mash->vial
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 10:56:16 AM
One thing I've noticed is that it's very inconsistent what tablets/vials can be sold to herbalists - and the prices are abysmal. If they're eventually not going to be as useful to keep stockpiled, then we could at least make a business out of it by selling to NPCs as well as PCs, since playtime logistics can get really hairy (same as it does with food).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
I just find it a little bit excessive for someone who has the skill at Master to be failing four out of five on attempts to create mashes and tablets.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:01:31 AM
Quote from: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
I just find it a little bit excessive for someone who has the skill at Master to be failing four out of five on attempts to create mashes and tablets.

The numbers can certainly be tweaked.  We're in the early stages, still.  This is why the craft/brew systems are working in parallel as bugs are fixed.

If you could put in a game bug request with some hard numbers on your attempts/failures and which herbs you were using it would make it easier for me to look at what's going on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on January 20, 2017, 11:07:12 AM
Quote from: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
I just find it a little bit excessive for someone who has the skill at Master to be failing four out of five on attempts to create mashes and tablets.

I'm still waiting for the code to settle a bit, but the other day when I tried, I found the results delightfully better.  I failed a couple times, but the craft delay is so much smaller than with brew.  From what I could tell, I like it.

That said, I did notice a bug: it only took one herb to make a mash, rather than two.  I'll file it off if it isn't already fixed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 11:09:59 AM
I just assumed it took two mashes to make a vial/tablet and each one of those took one herb, so if you succeeded at both it still took 2 herbs, rather than doubling it to 4 (two per mash). Does it only take 1 mash?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.

While I really like the thinking that's going into this, we should also keep in mind playability and player availability.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 11:20:43 AM
Also, are we going to look into the (unrealistic) speed of onset for some of these poisons as a counterbalance?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on January 20, 2017, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.

While I really like the thinking that's going into this, we should also keep in mind playability and player availability.

What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 11:09:59 AM
I just assumed it took two mashes to make a vial/tablet and each one of those took one herb, so if you succeeded at both it still took 2 herbs, rather than doubling it to 4 (two per mash). Does it only take 1 mash?

1 mash transforms into 1 tablet
1 mash + 1 empty vial transforms into 1 filled vial
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: Akaramu on January 20, 2017, 11:32:13 AM
Quote from: Delirium on January 20, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: Riev on January 20, 2017, 10:57:18 AM
So the eventual idea is to keep a few herbs on hand, and whip up a mash in the moment, for maximum potency. But if you want to have a cure on hand, or need to shove it down someone's throat, vials are superior.


I like it.

Correct.  The right tool for the right job.

Also gives people a reason to have an actual healer along rather than 'healer in a bottle'.  Similar to how potions got out of hand because everyone kept a cache of them in their inventory.

While I really like the thinking that's going into this, we should also keep in mind playability and player availability.

What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.

These being the reasons why I wasn't fond of food spoilage either, still am not, and am dreading making more things spoil.

If playtimes weren't an issue, that'd be... I guess a whole different game. When I am on, there is usually between 3-9 other players, at the opening and tail end of playtimes, closer to 15.

I have to assume that the game is different and a whole hell of a lot less frustrating when trying to do things that require other people being online when other people talk about making you NEED this or that type of pc around, given that it's usually difficult to find a templar or a gmh employee or other much more game-world-rooted pcs as far as tie ins to the overarching game when I am on. I can't fathom people suggesting you make needing yet other people around who I typically won't find. I can only assume they're playing a different game or part of the influx of 'peak time' players who get the most consideration even though it's the smallest window of playtime in the game. Of COURSE people who play outside the magic window will be frustrated when you design things to that everyone playing during these few hours a day all needs each other for coded rather than RP reasons, because it shafts the people who will never find those pcs, who never log in during those times, but still need to accomplish X, Y, or Z.

Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: bardlyone on January 20, 2017, 11:09:59 AM
I just assumed it took two mashes to make a vial/tablet and each one of those took one herb, so if you succeeded at both it still took 2 herbs, rather than doubling it to 4 (two per mash). Does it only take 1 mash?

1 mash transforms into 1 tablet
1 mash + 1 empty vial transforms into 1 filled vial

This makes the fail rate less galling. Thank you for the info. I like the concept of what this is going to be, but the details are still way too confusing to comment on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 02:36:35 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on January 20, 2017, 11:32:13 AM
What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.

Noted.

Cure/Poison degradation is a ways off.  When the time comes to code up we can look at it taking a long time.  The scenario to avoid is one where a starting player buys a bag of cures and still has them 10ic years later when they eat the wrong mushroom.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 20, 2017, 02:38:54 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 02:36:35 PM
Quote from: Akaramu on January 20, 2017, 11:32:13 AM
What Delirium said. Let's not penalize offpeakers without access to healer PCs more.

Noted.

Cure/Poison degradation is a ways off.  When the time comes to code up we can look at it taking a long time.  The scenario to avoid is one where a starting player buys a bag of cures and still has them 10ic years later when they eat the wrong mushroom.

Instead of 'spoiling', what if the tablets effectiveness reduced over time? So you still have the tablet, but in that 'moment of truth', whether or not it works is dependent on that. The tablets, as well, aren't Advil or Tyelnol. They're supposed to be dried out herbs made into a mush and set out to dry into 'tablets' that can be taken. So maybe the older they are, the more likely they are to crumble into dust when you get them from your bag/pouch/belt.

I really like the 'Poison Recovery' aspect that was either added in or I didn't notice before, where just because you take a tablet doesn't mean the poison is automatically flushed from your system. It'd be nice if each poison had a different poison recovery effect.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on January 20, 2017, 02:38:54 PM
Instead of 'spoiling', what if the tablets effectiveness reduced over time? So you still have the tablet, but in that 'moment of truth', whether or not it works is dependent on that. The tablets, as well, aren't Advil or Tyelnol. They're supposed to be dried out herbs made into a mush and set out to dry into 'tablets' that can be taken. So maybe the older they are, the more likely they are to crumble into dust when you get them from your bag/pouch/belt.

This was mentioned as a to-do earlier in the thread.  That's precisely what aging of cures would mean.  Although the sdesc updates would give a hint towards how degraded they are.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:12:46 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rathustra on January 20, 2017, 03:21:19 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:12:46 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/h3ynX7B.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:26:09 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:12:46 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on January 20, 2017, 03:37:11 PM
I didn't realize you guys know Pepe Sylvia
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:45:36 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:26:09 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:12:46 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)

lol. That actually made me lose my shit.

But I think the tone of my post was misinterpreted. Are these changes being made in expectation for the main guild overhaul? Are we making them because archery needed a tweak? Or did we just feel archery deserved a broader base of skills. etc. etc. etc. I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:45:36 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:26:09 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:12:46 PM


It would be nice knowing what staff are moving towards here.

Is there a bigger picture?

(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)

lol. That actually made me lose my shit.

But I think the tone of my post was misinterpreted. Are these changes being made in expectation for the main guild overhaul? Are we making them because archery needed a tweak? Or did we just feel archery deserved a broader base of skills. etc. etc. etc. I'm just curious.

(https://i.imgflip.com/1i1h6w.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Or I guess you don't have to answer? Or is there something else I'm missing?

It was a serious question and I'm not liking the way it's being dismissed here.

I'll add that I do think it's cool that you guys are making changes and updates to the way the game works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Or I guess you don't have to answer? Or is there something else I'm missing?

It was a serious question and I'm not liking the way it's being dismissed here.

I'll add that I do think it's cool that you guys are making changes and updates to the way the game works.

We rarely make comments on plans because it sets expectations.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:30:48 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Or I guess you don't have to answer? Or is there something else I'm missing?

It was a serious question and I'm not liking the way it's being dismissed here.

I'll add that I do think it's cool that you guys are making changes and updates to the way the game works.

We rarely make comments on plans because it sets expectations.

Gotcha. Thanks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 05:10:39 PM
Watching the Pepe Silvia clip made me realize Barney has max stealth/hide.

I wish I had the crafting skills to explore additional sling-related items. Maybe next character. I see room for growth in ammunition (clay-forged bullets), staff-slings, slings with additional weight capacity but reduced range, etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 07:07:00 PM
I like the rebranding of Mastercrafts in to Custom Crafts, and the more explicit guidelines for what can be created.

discussion moved to here: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52157.msg976589/boardseen.html#new
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on January 20, 2017, 07:13:04 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 05:10:39 PM
Watching the Pepe Silvia clip made me realize Barney has max stealth/hide.

I wish I had the crafting skills to explore additional sling-related items. Maybe next character. I see room for growth in ammunition (clay-forged bullets), staff-slings, slings with additional weight capacity but reduced range, etc.

Half-giant slings with head sized stones as ammunition!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The Warshaper on January 20, 2017, 09:15:37 PM
Im pretty sure there was some positive feedback for making archery not include slings because folks were skilling up with slings and then stepping over to a bow without their character having used one extensively enough to translate their gains from using a sling.

I like specializations. If melee weapons had more categories codedly I'd support that too!  :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 20, 2017, 09:35:58 PM
Yeah, I'm afraid that was the main reason for sling-use in game. Despite them historically being a pretty fearsome weapon in their own right, they don't have nearly the same utility of bows for range, damage, or poison delivery. Yet.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Refugee on January 20, 2017, 10:51:45 PM
Arrows are lost at such a prohibitive rate when you are new, and they are so expensive, that I am a bit sad about this change.  Yes, it's silly that using a sling will make you good with a bow, but I always played it as training your hand-eye coordination and suspended my disbelief.  I'm not sure how we can afford training up bowmen without archery targets and slings now!  Well, I guess they will have to postpone archery training until they can afford it.  That makes sense.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rokal on January 21, 2017, 02:03:45 AM
i honestly think the archery being split off into different types of weapons is going to be awesome.

I've wanted to have a character that specialized in slings for the longest time, so I'm hoping to see more sling-style weapons come out.

honestly, in general, all of the changes in this new update are pretty exciting to me, to me the changes to brewing seem to be just baby steps towards a more robust system of 'alchemy', and allows for a huge amount of RP potential too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 21, 2017, 02:09:51 AM
The more I wrap my head around how this new brewing system will/should work, the more I love its potential.

Excited.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Seeker on January 21, 2017, 12:14:50 PM
Quote from: Delirium on January 21, 2017, 02:09:51 AM
The more I wrap my head around how this new brewing system will/should work, the more I love its potential.

Excited.
Bah.  That is just because you have publicly arranged to receive special behind-the-curtain Request Tool instruction in all its subtle intricacies.  Stinker.

What's worse... you are probably playing some flavor of Ranger, too.  *snort*

(the above is intended to be humorous... and spelling error corrected)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 22, 2017, 02:08:47 AM
I know you're joking, Peeker... but just in case anyone gets the wrong impression....

Quote from: nessalin on January 21, 2017, 05:30:29 PM
Quote from: ChibiTama on January 20, 2017, 08:55:18 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 01:08:41 PM

For existing PCs with high skills we respond via the request tool to help them convert their knowledge of current recipes over to new ones.

What type of request would we submit and does it need to be clanned?


A question request is fine.

It'd be preferable if you include an example of what cures your character already knows how to brew by way of which items you are able to combine into which cures.   

We can provide you with information on how to use craft to make equivalent cures, but aren't going to give all master brewers information about the new system that extends beyond what their character knew in the old one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Seeker on January 22, 2017, 02:21:55 AM
I swear it looked more playfully humorous when I typed it last night.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Reiloth on January 22, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
I thought it was funny.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LauraMars on January 22, 2017, 03:54:07 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 20, 2017, 03:45:36 PM
Quote from: nessalin on January 20, 2017, 03:26:09 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/N1lx7db.png)

lol. That actually made me lose my shit.

HAH
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 22, 2017, 03:59:02 PM
I missed that.   That's fucking hilarious!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on January 22, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
Yup. Good stuff.  ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 23, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
Hey in case anyone else missed it, there was more updates today:

Quote

January, 23rd, 2017

(Nessalin)
-Output when using the 'assess' command on objects has been updated
  -Now displays the material the object is primarily made out of
  -Format updated to (hopefully) be a little cleaner)
  -bow/crossbow/sling/blowgun now say what they are and what kind of ammo they use
  -arrow/bolt/bullet/dart now say that they are ammo and what kind of weapon they need
  -Fixed long standing bug where some skinning weapons would say they were usable for skinning twice
-Added things made from GEM, GLASS, CERAMIC, SALT, and FUNGUS undyeable.

(Nathvaan)
-A great deal of ground work for upcoming projects.

(Akariel, Rathustra)
-Blowgun use, sling use, and crossbow use have been added to primary guild skill trees.  These skills should be added to your character upon logging in if you're supposed to get them.

I'm particularly interested in seeing the assess -v update in action.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 23, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
I'm particularly interested in seeing the assess -v update in action.

It's neat, and definitely adds clarity. I like it. I forsee a lot of typos in the queue in the future!

... the silken thingamajig is primarily made of bone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 23, 2017, 10:07:24 PM
Quote from: Refugee on January 20, 2017, 10:51:45 PM
Arrows are lost at such a prohibitive rate when you are new, and they are so expensive, that I am a bit sad about this change.  Yes, it's silly that using a sling will make you good with a bow, but I always played it as training your hand-eye coordination and suspended my disbelief.  I'm not sure how we can afford training up bowmen without archery targets and slings now!  Well, I guess they will have to postpone archery training until they can afford it.  That makes sense.

Training archery with arrows is not cost-prohibitive if you only shoot at things you know you are exceedingly unlikely to hit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on January 24, 2017, 10:00:18 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 23, 2017, 10:07:24 PM
Quote from: Refugee on January 20, 2017, 10:51:45 PM
Arrows are lost at such a prohibitive rate when you are new, and they are so expensive, that I am a bit sad about this change.  Yes, it's silly that using a sling will make you good with a bow, but I always played it as training your hand-eye coordination and suspended my disbelief.  I'm not sure how we can afford training up bowmen without archery targets and slings now!  Well, I guess they will have to postpone archery training until they can afford it.  That makes sense.

Training archery with arrows is not cost-prohibitive if you only shoot at things you know you are exceedingly unlikely to hit.

I'll make sure to avoid training archery on ya'll's moms.  OOhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

8)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 24, 2017, 11:31:11 AM
(https://media.tenor.co/images/ddd26e2143ded158f364949ea2ef803f/raw)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on January 28, 2017, 09:27:07 PM
Archery and brew changes are both awesome.

Brew, while vastly different, seems to be moving in the direction that was asked for in the poisoning discussion from code ideas awhile back.  I like when that happens.   8)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:21:12 PM
Quote
(Lyric)
-Submitted several new combat messages that the code can choose from for greater variety.  These are things like kick, bash, backstab, and so on.

:O What is this?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on January 30, 2017, 01:32:21 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:21:12 PM
Quote
(Lyric)
-Submitted several new combat messages that the code can choose from for greater variety.  These are things like kick, bash, backstab, and so on.

:O What is this?

When you use combat skills like bash, kick, backstab there are a set of message for each broken into groups.

3 messages for when you hit, when you miss, when you hit and kill your target.

The three messages per group are
-to attacker
-to victim
-to room

When a message is needed the code randomly selects a group from the list and displays those.  A few of them have two messages, most have only one.   The more that get added the more variety players will see in messages from the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:33:03 PM
Neat. Thank you for the explanation.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on January 30, 2017, 01:34:47 PM
Will this affect the ruling that kicks are kicks, and emotes denoting elbows and such should not be used?

Or is that ruling out of date altogether?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:35:22 PM
There was a ruling on that? Man I've been breaking the rules for a long time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on January 30, 2017, 01:40:03 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:35:22 PM
There was a ruling on that? Man I've been breaking the rules for a long time.

Ruling might be too strong a word.  But I remember there being a hubbub over it (that maybe went away?) over items that had bonuses to kick skill but weren't used when you emoted other locations.

We were told kicks were kicks.  Perhaps I'm outdated, in which case asking this would be a good thing for me!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on January 30, 2017, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:35:22 PM
There was a ruling on that? Man I've been breaking the rules for a long time.

If someone reverses your kick, and you emoted it as an elbow, it would look really weird, because the reversal message is always based on the assumption that a kick is, in fact, a kick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on January 30, 2017, 01:45:22 PM
I usually emote after the fact for just such a reason.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Inks on January 30, 2017, 05:53:57 PM
My bashes are often headbutts when they land.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 30, 2017, 06:48:16 PM
My bashes are usually literal shoves for brawnier guys or leg sweeps for the more nimble folk.

Kicks are generally kicks though, using the kick command means you kick to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on January 30, 2017, 06:56:52 PM
I will randomize my kicks between kicks or a knee to the gut or something similar. I dislike NOT emoting something in combat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 30, 2017, 07:51:45 PM
People who dont emote during combat bug me, those who emote very poorly bug me even more.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on January 30, 2017, 11:41:14 PM
Question about the new "cure" helpfile

Cure                                                          (Miscellaneous)

   Cures in Zalanthas come in many forms.  The most prevalent are mashes,
tablets, and vials.  Each has their own properties.

   Mashes are made by combining herbs, which can then be consumed immediately.

   Tablets can be crafted directly from a mash with the same curative
properties and then eaten later.

Does this mean that our Mashes will decompose and go away like the food code works now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on February 13, 2017, 01:56:32 PM
-Fixed bug that allowed dyeing of food items if the order of the food and dye items were in correct order.


So...no green hawk eggs and chalton for us, Sam.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 02:10:15 PM
Quote from: WanderingOoze on February 13, 2017, 01:56:32 PM
-Fixed bug that allowed dyeing of food items if the order of the food and dye items were in correct order.


So...no green hawk eggs and chalton for us, Sam.

Yeah, I'm all for dying food! I know it was a bug, but can we get it turned into a feature? Cooking is a fun skill that adds a lot to a character imo, and I'm sure nobles would love to have bread baked in their house colors for parties!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on February 13, 2017, 02:34:02 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 02:10:15 PM
Quote from: WanderingOoze on February 13, 2017, 01:56:32 PM
-Fixed bug that allowed dyeing of food items if the order of the food and dye items were in correct order.


So...no green hawk eggs and chalton for us, Sam.

Yeah, I'm all for dying food! I know it was a bug, but can we get it turned into a feature? Cooking is a fun skill that adds a lot to a character imo, and I'm sure nobles would love to have bread baked in their house colors for parties!

Yeah, that would be pretty fun.

Also, it would be kind of cool to be able to colorize according
to what seasonings were used. Like if you were having thing,
and one person wanted *certain seasoning* but another didn't
much care for that particular flavor, and wanted *other seasoning* instead on their steak. Oh, alright. All the -red- steaks are *this* and the -blue- steaks are *other*.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on February 13, 2017, 03:53:56 PM
Yeah but then you have blue steak to serve your buddies. Thats going to get you some wierd looks the first few times you pull that trick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 13, 2017, 04:01:08 PM
Being able to color your food is an interesting idea - but not with the kind of dye you would use on wood or cloth, and not with the dyeing skill.  Interesting idea to use with the cooking skill later, maybe.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 05:10:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rk-ukXVnCQ
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on February 13, 2017, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: nessalin on February 13, 2017, 04:01:08 PM
Being able to color your food is an interesting idea - but not with the kind of dye you would use on wood or cloth, and not with the dyeing skill.  Interesting idea to use with the cooking skill later, maybe.

I get the "not with the dyeing skill" part, but why not with the dye you use on wood or cloth? Those packets are made by crushing herbs and flowers, many of which end up in seasonings, flavorants for booze, or even consumed as is.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on February 13, 2017, 05:25:51 PM
Some dyes are made from rocks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on February 13, 2017, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 13, 2017, 05:21:04 PM
I get the "not with the dyeing skill" part, but why not with the dye you use on wood or cloth? Those packets are made by crushing herbs and flowers, many of which end up in seasonings, flavorants for booze, or even consumed as is.

I always assumed that the finished dyes include other, virtual ingredients that don't go well with food. The dye packets even have 'bitter' in their sdesc, I have a feeling they'd be at least slightly poisonous.

Actually, I think many crafting recipes - not just dyes - include virtual ingredients. Like... tanning.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on February 13, 2017, 05:44:49 PM
I for one would be OK with dying food with current dyes if they delivered negative taste messages or even poisoned the eater. These are vanity items for characters with more time and money than sense, after all. Let the plebs worry about a simple case of poisoning!

I believe we already have some precedent with this with Gypsy Pepper Belly syndrome.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on February 13, 2017, 06:59:44 PM
Cooking is a skill I love because every character gets it, and I use it almost every time I log into the game. I get why they don't want people putting clothes dye in food, but I also think coloring food would be cool.

I would be willing to help make this happen, if they need recipes and items for food coloring I could write descriptions and such. Would be cool if the dyes were made by brewing and used in cooking, but that's not really my call.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 13, 2017, 07:58:35 PM
lol, blue steak? no thanks. That's a little too much WoW in my armageddon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on February 13, 2017, 07:59:24 PM
Raptor nuggets are blue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on February 13, 2017, 08:36:03 PM
I wonder if scrab steaks are yellow after cooking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Shoka Windrunner on February 13, 2017, 09:05:22 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 13, 2017, 08:36:03 PM
I wonder if scrab steaks are yellow after cooking.

I think they are when you burn them...so maybe?  Less I'm wrong.   :D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jingo on February 13, 2017, 09:14:36 PM
Red food coloring comes from ground up beetles.

True fact.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on July 10, 2017, 07:43:17 AM
Quote- The unhitch command will now take the argument 'all', unhitching all mounts your character has hitched to them.

Awesome!

Could this include unhitching all followers (excluding those shadowing)?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2017, 08:40:40 AM
Unhitch all is a great idea, especially if you picked up a spare and didn't title it.

But a player-initiated fix to this would be: TITLE YOUR MOUNTS AND USE THOSE TITLES.
unitch dinner/hitch lunch/unhitch shitbug/hitch stankbutt
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on July 10, 2017, 08:50:28 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 10, 2017, 08:55:18 AM
Quote from: whitt on July 10, 2017, 08:50:28 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?

I'd like a "disband" command to - well - disband your group when you're the leader. It's old-school H&S but it works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on July 10, 2017, 10:13:08 AM
FINALLY.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 10, 2017, 10:21:12 AM
Quote from: whitt on July 10, 2017, 08:50:28 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?

I don't see why it wouldn't.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lairos on July 10, 2017, 10:45:09 AM
Quote from: Delirium on July 10, 2017, 10:21:12 AM
Quote from: whitt on July 10, 2017, 08:50:28 AM
does unhitch all?  Unhitch all the players following you too?  Please oh please?

I don't see why it wouldn't.

How does this amazing blanket command affect those who are "shadowing" someone or does it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 10, 2017, 10:47:21 AM
Probably still can't unhitch what you can't see?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on July 12, 2017, 07:08:49 PM
Unhitch all only affects mounts that are hitched to your character.

Doesn't affect non-mounts, visible or not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 12, 2017, 07:09:43 PM
Drat.

Still awesome!

... but, drat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on July 12, 2017, 10:33:32 PM
I would rather unhitch people.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheGoose on July 13, 2017, 09:53:33 AM
Sometimes I try to go up to lose the group. Works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on July 13, 2017, 10:18:49 AM
My concern is that people that only want to unhitch their mounts would keep unhitching people following them, who then have to re-follow.

Which is the more common scenario, unhitching mounts or people following?

How often is unhitch used to stop characters from following?

How effective is it when they can just re-follow?

Would a different command be better than 'unhitch'?

Maybe with different arguments?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on July 13, 2017, 10:23:00 AM
Situations where unhitch followers is useful:

1) A leader of a clan needs to go into a meeting with some noble and leave all the minions in the hallways -- especially if the minions are all hoodsup.

2) You've forgotten who followed you into the room and want to logout or leave on your own.

3) A battle erupts, and you need to split quick, e.g., to position yourself as a flank or whatever.

I like unhitch all|mounts|followers.  (I assume it won't unhitch shadows just as regular unhitch won't; you still have to flee self to shake a shadow.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on July 13, 2017, 10:29:40 AM
Quote from: nessalin on July 13, 2017, 10:18:49 AM
Which is the more common scenario, unhitching mounts or people following?

How effective is it when they can just re-follow?

Would a different command be better than 'unhitch'?

Only one class, to the best of my knowledge, can hitch multiple mounts in the first place.  So certainly, I'd say, it's more common for someone to be Pied Pipering a group of people, especially during RPTs and not necessarily know who all is following them.  Thereby resulting in folks yo-yoing rooms as the leader leaves and three people that were in the middle of a conversation or something leaves without knowing they're still being followed.

I don't think re-follow is the problem.  I think the problem is greater trying to unhitch everyone in the room before you, say, go to the estate gates to usher in the next batch of guests.

Disband would seem like a reasonable command word for a command that would unhitch all followers, but not mounts.  But then you'd have the awkwardness of still needing to use unhitch Amos for individuals if you didn't want to ditch everyone.  So maybe go with your argument list?  And let folks alias the unhitch all followers command if they like?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:25:19 PM
I don't think you should be able to issue a command to stop people from following you, unless that person has been legitimately identified as linkdead--especially not if you can't even see them.

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on July 13, 2017, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:25:19 PM
I don't think you should be able to issue a command to stop people from following you, unless that person has been legitimately identified as linkdead--especially not if you can't even see them.

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.

unhitch <target> currently allows you to "stop leading another visible character."  The proposal, I take it, is to just extend this to stop leading all visible characters (unhitch followers).  If we didn't have this ability (to unhitch individuals), then things would be pretty irritating: a lot of PCs go on breaks, afk, etc., without going link dead while hitched.  Being able to unhitch everyone visible following you would be a convenience to save typing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: nauta on July 13, 2017, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:25:19 PM
I don't think you should be able to issue a command to stop people from following you, unless that person has been legitimately identified as linkdead--especially not if you can't even see them.

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.

unhitch <target> currently allows you to "stop leading another visible character."  The proposal, I take it, is to just extend this to stop leading all visible characters (unhitch followers).

I'm aware of that.  I'm saying that "unhitch target" is already kind of a bad idea that is probably only there for convenience, since the code apparently can't tell very well when someone goes linkdead.  Doubling down on it is a terrible idea.

If three raiders are following you, there's absolutely no reason why you should be able to "unhitch all" and then spam movement commands, knowing that reaction time and latency will be on your side.

I suppose it could be usable if they recoded "shadow" to be a parallel command to "follow," such that if you are "shadowing" someone, they cannot lose you by simply using the unhitch command, even if you are visible.  This would rework "shadow" into a command for "intentionally and aggressively following" someone, and would force the followed person to react via one of the aforementioned methods.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on July 13, 2017, 01:44:28 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 13, 2017, 01:39:38 PM

If someone is following you and you don't want them to, you already have a range of mundane options:  1) you can ask them to stop; 2) you can "flee self;" 3) you can start running and try to outrun them; or 4) you can initiate some kind of combat.

The fact you can unhitch followers one by one is already pretty sketchy, and absolutely gets abused when you're aggressively following someone.


Chase command please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on July 13, 2017, 01:44:59 PM
Ah, that's a good point.  One idea I had might go along with this:

nosave unhitch
nosave follow
follow <target> <self>

follow <target> <self> would allow you to force target to follow you, if they have nosave follow on. (Useful when some Runner goes AFK in the desert.)

If you have nosave unhitch on, you will allow someone to unhitch you (i.e. stop leading you).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on July 13, 2017, 02:01:20 PM
[moving to Code Related Questions]
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 13, 2017, 02:08:23 PM
Quote from: nessalin on July 13, 2017, 10:18:49 AM

Maybe with different arguments?

  • "unhitch mounts"
  • "unhitch followers"
  • "unhitch all"

I like this, it keeps things simple. The RPT scenario is the biggest one, say you're leading 5+ people and they all emote obeying your command to remain behind but a few of them forgot to type "follow self"....

Things get awkward. As for "aggressive following" uh.... this doesn't stop that, and it's... kind of a silly concern IMO.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on July 13, 2017, 02:13:35 PM
Or when you havent seen someone for IG days and forgot
they were following you before and you happen to walk through the tavern or something and drag them along on accident.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Black on July 14, 2017, 11:17:23 AM
I like all the bug fixes. Unhitch all sounds pretty awesome too if you travel a lot with groups and need to hitch more than one, or are taming a lot of them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheGoose on July 14, 2017, 03:55:53 PM
Yeah, the follow thing is pretty annoying. I drag/get dragged by people a lot. Conversely, I've never had a need to unhitch all my mounts at once. Besides, if I leave a mount behind, I drop the reins automatically. Not so with people.

If it was a one or the other scenario, I would say make 'unhitch all' affect visible followers, not mounts.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on July 15, 2017, 06:20:16 AM
Quote from: TheGoose on July 14, 2017, 03:55:53 PM
Yeah, the follow thing is pretty annoying. I drag/get dragged by people a lot. Conversely, I've never had a need to unhitch all my mounts at once. Besides, if I leave a mount behind, I drop the reins automatically. Not so with people.

If it was a one or the other scenario, I would say make 'unhitch all' affect visible followers, not mounts.

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Tisiphone on July 15, 2017, 07:15:29 AM
Quote from: TheGoose on July 14, 2017, 03:55:53 PM
Yeah, the follow thing is pretty annoying. I drag/get dragged by people a lot. Conversely, I've never had a need to unhitch all my mounts at once. Besides, if I leave a mount behind, I drop the reins automatically. Not so with people.

Not sure I like this idea, but how about, if you are ever out of the same room as someone, you stop following them? It seems potentially inconvenient for those 'we all got separated in the desert' moments, but then again I imagine many people are like me - I compulsively type 'follow <leader>' once I'm back in the same room again, despite the fact that it's technically unnecessary, so I wouldn't notice much disadvantage.

That way, if someone manages to escape your shadow*, or goes over a cliff, or is done having a meeting with you and goes away only to walk past an RL hour and a half later when you forgot to 'follow self', you won't just pick them back up automatically.

*In this case you probably should, I think. Oh well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 15, 2017, 09:46:06 AM
This is why I prefer to lead, and not follow. In most cases - I'll remember to unhitch, or ask everyone else to stop following, if I plan on doing something other than whatever it was that made them follow me in the first place. But SO MANY TIMES I follow the leader of the group, and they start wandering for who the hell knows what reason, when we were following for some completely different reason. If they're too fast for me to type "follow self" I might just type SOUTH... so that I stop following them while they keep moving west or whatever. But it doesn't always work out that way.  Or worse - I'll be following Amos - who then forgets I'm following him, and he hooks up with and starts following Malik, who has plans that have nothing to do with me, and while I'm waying someone because Amos asked me to - Malik starts dragging us all over creation and the command delay prevents me from giving the way message OR stop following, til we're halfway across the city.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on July 15, 2017, 09:52:01 AM
I can flee self to escape a shadow? Interesting, didnt know that, and I have played for years.

Flee self always seemed like a command useful mostly for getting yo ass killed in a situation full of danger to me; run off a cliff, bump into the line of sight of an aggressive beast, etc.

And I agree that a command to ditch all followers would be a handy addition and doesn't seem like it would be prone to much abuse. Anything that saves headaches and typing struggles is a good thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on July 17, 2017, 10:58:41 PM

http://armageddon.org/help/view/chase (http://armageddon.org/help/view/chase)

This is AWESOME!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 13, 2017, 09:30:38 AM
Tools degrade slower, now? Aw.

I guess if you have an awesome quality tool, it probably shouldn't be mangled and useless after you fail to polish a gemstone five times.

I can put scan and listen into my prompt? Usually I know just by how much stun I have left, but I don't always remember to check it! Awesome!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 650Booger on September 13, 2017, 03:23:42 PM
no delay on pick checks will make some folks very happy!  not me though.  I swear.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 13, 2017, 03:32:31 PM
Quote from: 650Booger on September 13, 2017, 03:23:42 PM
no delay on pick checks will make some folks very happy!  not me though.  I swear.

Hoping it cuts down on the "pick flower plant" .... wait.... wait.... wait..... wait... wait... OH MAN THATS THE WRONG SYNTAX
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on September 13, 2017, 07:57:39 PM
Quote from: Nessalin
-Prompt will now take %p as an argument to indicate that Scan is active (when Scan is turned off nothing is displayed).
-Prompt will now take %P as an argument to indicate that Listen is active (when Listen is turned off nothing is displayed).

Nice!

Quote from: Nessalin-Typing 'prompt' alone will now output your character's current prompt settings.



(My prompt is three lines long.  Recreating it is the worst part of every new character.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on September 13, 2017, 08:33:07 PM
This week's changes were mined almost entirely from the bugs/ideas entries that players type in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dahlia on September 13, 2017, 10:16:25 PM
Thank you Nessalin!  These changes are amazingly helpful!   ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on September 29, 2017, 06:38:22 PM
So City skills are now criminal skills? Even though vasts portions of the populations that have them are using those skills somewhat legally, if not completely so?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 29, 2017, 06:41:11 PM
Quote from: Fredd on September 29, 2017, 06:38:22 PM
So City skills are now criminal skills? Even though vasts portions of the populations that have them are using those skills somewhat legally, if not completely so?

I feel like this needs more context, because the only thing I THINK you're talking about is the new Chase code?

Nevermind, I see it.

Quote from: Brokkr
Quick Update!

I wanted to let folks know that this project has not fallen by the wayside.

On taking up some of the work the first thing I did was a corporate style re-org to rename the home advantages.  What used to be called city, wilderness and general we are now calling criminal, wilderness and city, in order to better reflect the underlying competencies and chunks of population, without changing anything about the underlying structure!

After this impressive win, I took a break for a few weeks.

But seriously, work progresses.  I'm going to leave this topic locked for now, will reopen when there is more to share!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 29, 2017, 06:43:21 PM
That all being said, I think its just reorganizing some of the "general" skills into "criminal". Steal is a criminal skill, but I don't think it was categorized as a "city" skill before.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on September 30, 2017, 03:20:40 AM
Actually just the opposite.  "City" was populated with skills like steal, pick, sneak, etc. that were, you know, typically used by criminals, although not exclusively so.  But we can discuss later, when there is more to discuss than just labeling the categories in a way such that you have a better idea of the type of skills in them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on October 17, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
This thread is only for discussion of release notes made.  Not all staff announcements.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 23, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
OMG, this most recent release notes... mind BLOWN. Good stuff!

EDIT: No, I'm not joking, these are good changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 23, 2017, 12:12:27 PM
nerf thieves
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 01:05:54 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 23, 2017, 12:12:27 PM
nerf thieves

Not sure if that was tongue in cheek at me or not, but in explanation, there is at least one branch out of sleight of hand for non-thieving class.  So if they can't improve, then that becomes...problematic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 23, 2017, 02:32:04 PM
Armaddict likes to watch. Although, he does bring up a valid point, however, latching and unlatching are relatively new features, and paths existed before for skilling up.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on October 23, 2017, 05:01:35 PM
If it's possible without giving too much of the mechanics away, can we get a little more detail about this:

Quote from: Nathvaan-Modification to add more detailed logging with regards to criminal behavior.

I'm kind of assuming this is in regards to IC criminal behavior.  If so, what prompted the change?  Is this an anti-code abuse measure, or a realism measure, or just for clan staff awareness, or...?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 23, 2017, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.

Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on October 23, 2017, 07:01:36 PM
Prompt customizations ; Epic!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 23, 2017, 08:57:37 PM
i love reading release notes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on October 24, 2017, 07:31:08 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
... This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve. ...

Even assuming that you can't fail while latching/unlatching your own gear, there are other sleight of hand (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Sleight%20Of%20Hand) skills, such as palm and slip.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on October 24, 2017, 10:16:11 AM
"Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve."
How does being able to open your own gear without being tackled mean you can't fail?
You are also aware silently drawing weapons, taking items out of your own pack (Opening your pack was the only way to get tackled), and opening and closing things also use the sleight of hand skill and will not get you crim coded?


"Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?"
I don't know if lacking sleight of hand will let you attempt sleight of hand abilities, but if you can then there is always a chance. A low as fuck chance, but a chance. If I recall not having steal makes stealing impossible so it could be like that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ChibiTama on October 24, 2017, 02:30:34 PM
I never had an issue with latching/unlatching as long as I didn't use 'unlatch talia pack'. I just used 'unlatch pack'.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on October 24, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on October 23, 2017, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.

Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?

Isn't the writing on the tin on this one?  Used to be that when you unlatch your own pouch, and fail, some half-giant soldier nearby would grab you and toss you into jail.  Sounds like they fixed this.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 24, 2017, 04:02:02 PM
Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on October 23, 2017, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.
Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.
If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.
Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?
Isn't the writing on the tin on this one?  Used to be that when you unlatch your own pouch, and fail, some half-giant soldier nearby would grab you and toss you into jail.  Sounds like they fixed this.

Oh, this is crim code related. I didn't realize unlatching your own gear could trigger guards, and I've been done it on a few characters without reprecussion. I guess I was just lucky, because I honestly thought unlatching your own stuff just didn't trigger crim code.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 24, 2017, 04:39:13 PM
And now it won't! (It was an issue in one specific locale in the game, so if you weren't there, you wouldn't have noticed it).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 24, 2017, 06:13:05 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 24, 2017, 04:39:13 PM
And now it won't! (It was an issue in one specific locale in the game, so if you weren't there, you wouldn't have noticed it).

It's tragically hilarious when it happens in areas where the guards DON'T ask why the jail can't be moved closer to the criminals.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 25, 2017, 04:36:47 PM
That was the nature of my question, guys.  I was trying to make sure that wasn't overlooked, because these are purposely vague.  I wanted to know if 'This doesn't happen anymore' translated to failures no longer occurring in the way that makes the skill advance.

I even gave permission to give me the violin if, codewise, it was a silly concern.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on October 26, 2017, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: James de Monet on October 23, 2017, 05:01:35 PM
If it's possible without giving too much of the mechanics away, can we get a little more detail about this:

Quote from: Nathvaan-Modification to add more detailed logging with regards to criminal behavior.

I'm kind of assuming this is in regards to IC criminal behavior.  If so, what prompted the change?  Is this an anti-code abuse measure, or a realism measure, or just for clan staff awareness, or...?

Yes, IC criminal behavior and staff awareness for sure. The logging that was in place didn't fully indicate what crime was committed as well as a few other useful tidbits.  Basically, adding this to the logging will make it easier for Admin staff members to research who did what crime, when and where etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 26, 2017, 10:01:01 AM
Quote from: Nathvaan on October 26, 2017, 09:54:16 AM
Quote from: James de Monet on October 23, 2017, 05:01:35 PM
If it's possible without giving too much of the mechanics away, can we get a little more detail about this:

Quote from: Nathvaan-Modification to add more detailed logging with regards to criminal behavior.

I'm kind of assuming this is in regards to IC criminal behavior.  If so, what prompted the change?  Is this an anti-code abuse measure, or a realism measure, or just for clan staff awareness, or...?

Yes, IC criminal behavior and staff awareness for sure. The logging that was in place didn't fully indicate what crime was committed as well as a few other useful tidbits.  Basically, adding this to the logging will make it easier for Admin staff members to research who did what crime, when and where etc.

well that sounds just fucking useful! well done there!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on October 26, 2017, 08:50:04 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on October 23, 2017, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on October 23, 2017, 11:59:17 AM
Quote-Modification to make it so a character wouldn't be 'caught' when latching and unlatching their own gear.

Does this mean there will be no fails with it, as well?  This could be detrimental to some who don't use it for thievery, with no way to improve.

If I'm misreading the change, just...play a fiddle at me.

Side question, does this mean that I can latch/unlatch my gear successfully without an equivalent skill?

To address all the questions about latch/unlatching minor change.  It shouldn't effect skill progression in any way unless you were using latch and unlatch on yourself to skill up by catching yourself, that's just silly.  There is no intent in any way to nerf thieves but as stated to make sure that people don't get arrested by catching themselves doing sneaky things.  If it turns out that there are unexpected side effects, rest assured the code will be tweaked a bit more as needed.

While we all love a chase scene with the Benny Hill theme in the background it's a bit absurd to catch yourself! (I literally sometimes start playing that theme when the Law starts chasing a criminal and I am watching!)

This change is akin to the code that disallows you to steal coins from yourself.

Hope that clarifies things!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 26, 2017, 09:13:28 PM
Ohhh, I think I just read it in a different way.

I thought it was saying no one -else- could notice when you were latching and unlatching your own gear, which made it sound like failures were gone unless you were using it on someone else.

MAH BAD.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on October 27, 2017, 08:17:27 PM
Quote from: Nathvaan on October 26, 2017, 09:54:16 AM
Yes, IC criminal behavior and staff awareness for sure. The logging that was in place didn't fully indicate what crime was committed as well as a few other useful tidbits.  Basically, adding this to the logging will make it easier for Admin staff members to research who did what crime, when and where etc.

Ah, cool.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on October 30, 2017, 03:35:50 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akaramu on October 30, 2017, 05:00:57 PM
The release notes look neat. I wonder if it will become possible for resourceful Indies to acquire wagons at some point...  ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on October 30, 2017, 06:38:32 PM
Awesome stuff.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on October 30, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on October 30, 2017, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on October 30, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SuchDragonWow on October 31, 2017, 02:53:23 AM
I like the prompt updates.  Thanks for those.  If it's no hassle, it'd be cool to also have:

Hunger
Thirst
What you're watching
Cloaked
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on October 31, 2017, 05:13:30 AM
I like the direction of the wagon code updates. I hope it is indicative of broader plans to possibly make wagons more accessible to PCs who can afford them. If they're not invincible death fortresses, it opens up a lot of possibilities.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on October 31, 2017, 07:29:43 AM
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on October 31, 2017, 02:53:23 AM
I like the prompt updates.  Thanks for those.  If it's no hassle, it'd be cool to also have:

Hunger
Thirst
What you're watching
Cloaked

Level of drunkenness
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaLeah on October 31, 2017, 08:59:35 AM
Quote from: Fredd on October 30, 2017, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on October 30, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc

Wagons can now be attached?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on October 31, 2017, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 31, 2017, 08:59:35 AM
Quote from: Fredd on October 30, 2017, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on October 30, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc

Wagons can now be attached?

They're the newest, latest accessory put out by Kadius.  Never show up to a party without one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaLeah on October 31, 2017, 10:07:15 AM
Quote from: Pale Horse on October 31, 2017, 09:51:09 AM
Quote from: ShaLeah on October 31, 2017, 08:59:35 AM
Quote from: Fredd on October 30, 2017, 09:15:02 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on October 30, 2017, 07:58:14 PM
I envision guarding a wagon across the desert will be suddenly a teeny bit harder! Yay!

using the guard command on said wagon makes more sense now!

A Mekillot attacks a wagon
A day-1 runner leaps to a wagons protection!

A day-1 runner rolls a new pc

Wagons can now be attached?

They're the newest, latest accessory put out by Kadius.  Never show up to a party without one.

Touche.

Attacked, I meant ATTACKED obviously. Brat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 31, 2017, 10:09:57 AM
To answer your question though: no

By the notes, it sounds like a standard wear and tear will occur on wagons and require actual repairs. Currently by an NPC script, hopefully soon by a PC as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Draechen on November 02, 2017, 12:56:03 PM
With regard to the skill level perceived drop, does that mean a guild that could at one point have submitted a custom craft will no longer be able to?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 02, 2017, 01:08:39 PM
Quote from: Draechen on November 02, 2017, 12:56:03 PM
With regard to the skill level perceived drop, does that mean a guild that could at one point have submitted a custom craft will no longer be able to?

Good question!  Those that could submit a custom craft in the past can continue doing so.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on November 02, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 31, 2017, 10:09:57 AM
To answer your question though: no

By the notes, it sounds like a standard wear and tear will occur on wagons and require actual repairs. Currently by an NPC script, hopefully soon by a PC as well.

My reading is that this could be used to simulate wear and tear but will more likely be used DM style to apply damage to a wagon that suffers a mekillot attack, or a gith fire bomb. This makes wagons far more "playable" because they stop being invulnerable and staff don't have to rewrite room descriptions every time they want to simulate wagon damage.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on November 02, 2017, 04:10:48 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on November 02, 2017, 07:20:08 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 02, 2017, 04:10:48 PM
Would the wagon repair code be applicable to any of the currently wrecked wagons in the game? I'm meaning the ones littering the base of the Shield Wall, and the others scattered around. While it'd be sad and tragic to lose any of them, as they provide shelter for all kinds of interesting people and encounters, it'd be cool to have the possibility of repairing or salvaging one's own wagon should it accidentally fall into a shallow sinkhole, or something.

If they can be repaired, then maybe the others become stationary once they break down.
If the wagons happen to move around every now and then that only sounds like a good thing to me.
If Kadius repairs them all and leaves them in their wagon yard to stagnate for 50 ic years, that sounds terrible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on November 02, 2017, 10:08:15 PM
Fredd:

Protector has master shield use.
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Protector
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on November 02, 2017, 10:19:37 PM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on November 03, 2017, 12:03:00 AM
Quote from: Namino on November 02, 2017, 10:19:37 PM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.

On the contrary, you are quite accurate.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Mercy on November 03, 2017, 01:01:54 AM
Quote from: seidhr on November 03, 2017, 12:03:00 AM
Quote from: Namino on November 02, 2017, 10:19:37 PM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.

On the contrary, you are quite accurate.

I am confused by this.

If a guild caps out at 50 shield use, but the cap for shield use in the game is 90, wouldn't 50 NOT show as master when you achieve 50 shield use? It'll just stop increasing in skill level name. Journeyman or whatever it is.

If one person's shield use has decreased, wouldn't that mean shield use has been given a new cap (e.g. 90 to 95) during this change. Not that another guild also has been given the cap of 90? Just because master hasn't gone down for some, it doesn't mean they still are at the total cap across the game, just close enough to still show as master? Or can that not be clarified? I'm assuming master doesn't happen at 90/90, but within a range of 90 so there's still room for improvement even though you are the best of the best, skill-wise.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on November 03, 2017, 01:06:41 AM
If the max is 90, master would show up at I assume somewhere around 80.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 03, 2017, 01:47:13 AM
Apprentice is about 20% of global maximum

Journeyman is about 40%

Advanced is about 60%

Master is about 80%

You can be "master" and still kinda suck.  E.g. shield use and parry seem to be capped hella low even for warriors (even though they presumably hold the global maxima...because you can master them in a hot minute compared to everything else), and some guilds are capped -exactly- at the master point.  E.g. "master" hide for a pickpocket is substantially less useful than "master" hide for a burglar.

If the global shield use cap is at like...50%, then subguild protector could have a cap anywhere from 40% to 50% and still be "master."  If the global cap for a particular skill is 100%, you could be 20 points off the maximum and still be a "master," but obviously 20 points difference is a yuuuuuge chaaaaaasm of playability for some skills, especially skills like "steal," where failure = instant, permanent PC aggro.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on November 03, 2017, 02:27:37 AM
Does this mean, the potential for some guilds has gone up?

Or, should we anticipate karma-required guilds, that are more powerful than normal ones?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 03, 2017, 02:54:23 AM
Quote from: Vex on November 03, 2017, 02:27:37 AM
Does this mean, the potential for some guilds has gone up?

Or, should we anticipate karma-required guilds, that are more powerful than normal ones?

The potential for some skills for some of the new hybrid-system guilds is higher than the current highest points for existing guilds.

I've never read anything about Staff making any of these mundane hybrid-system guilds karma-required.

My guess is that they're slightly beefing the weapon skill caps and/or parry/shield use caps on whatever the Tanky McTankface class is going to be, but...that's just a guess.  (Weapon skills are already highly compressed, so it would make sense to spread them out a bit to the upside in order to provide real value for the specialists without nerfing non-specialists and having to re-balance every damn mob in the game to account for it.  Currently, there isn't a whole lot of difference between a max warrior and a max ranger in terms of raw melee PVE DPS.)

P.S. Staff this is also a suggestion if that's not what is already happening.  ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on November 03, 2017, 11:46:53 AM
Quote from: Namino on November 02, 2017, 10:19:37 PM
My understanding is that skills have ALWAYS been standardized to the maximum value a character can attain. So a shield use value of '50' will always show as master for someone who has a 50/50 in it. Protector had master shield not because protector went to 100, but because it went close enough to warrior maximum shield use to also qualify as master. What is happening now is that, with the new additional guilds, the maximums are changing. So a new guild is coming in with slashing that caps at, say, 100 instead of 90, now everyone who was at journeyman might see themselves back down at apprentice because their skill level is being divided by the new maximum, not the old one.

The actual way skills are being calculated didn't change, just the hypothetical denominators as new caps are put in for guilds we don't have yet. Shield use hasn't dropped under master for me likely because the new guilds still have the same cap for Shield Use.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong.

Mostly right.  If only you didn't use the word "ALWAYS" you would have been good.  When visible skill levels were implemented, it was April Fools day, and who knows what those skill levels are based on!

But the week after April Fools day when they did them for real, they were all based off the same cap for all skills.  This was confusing, because a guild that was the absolute best at a skill might not see a skill level of 'master', which didn't make a lot of sense.  So it was changed after four or five days to be based off the highest skill level any guild obtained, becoming a relative measure to all other PCs, rather than an absolute measure on a 100 scale.

As for the questions, sounds like we need an AMA on the new classes!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 05, 2017, 01:12:59 AM
Am I right in assuming this means skill NAME progression is slower? Like, getting from Journeyman to Advanced should take longer now, right?

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on November 05, 2017, 01:25:32 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 05, 2017, 01:12:59 AM
Am I right in assuming this means skill NAME progression is slower? Like, getting from Journeyman to Advanced should take longer now, right?

For some skills, probably. Wheres before, "skinning" might've been Advanced at 60/100, now it is "advanced" at 75/100. So you'd have to get 15 more points or skillups or whatever before you see the new nomenclature.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 06, 2017, 07:26:44 PM
Are all the Class/Skill Names definite or just working names for now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miggy on November 06, 2017, 08:13:39 PM
Maybe it's just wishful thinking... but it seems like with all those different 'classes' now available, there should be lots of new skills added to the mix. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheGoose on November 11, 2017, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.

Kinda ominous, yeah? Kinda like going to yr pool and seeing a new sign reading 'tiny sharks expanded.'

...There were sharks? Tiny ones? Does this mean they're gone now? Or are there more of them? Or are they bigger now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on November 11, 2017, 11:22:40 AM
Describe relative positions of ovals originating from a real algebraic curve and as limit cycles of a polynomial vector field on the plane.  Then you will have your answer.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on November 11, 2017, 11:35:00 AM
Quote from: TheGoose on November 11, 2017, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.

Kinda ominous, yeah? Kinda like going to yr pool and seeing a new sign reading 'tiny sharks expanded.'

...There were sharks? Tiny ones? Does this mean they're gone now? Or are there more of them? Or are they bigger now?

I also feel like that line could use expanding. Does that change combat in any way? Are Jozhals now the deadliest beasts in the land?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on November 11, 2017, 11:37:38 AM
Finally, my PCs can get nipple tattoos.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on November 11, 2017, 12:14:37 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on November 11, 2017, 11:22:40 AM
Describe relative positions of ovals originating from a real algebraic curve and as limit cycles of a polynomial vector field on the plane.  Then you will have your answer.

42

I'm looking forward to seeing what kinds of new options we have for character creation!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 12:25:03 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on November 11, 2017, 11:37:38 AM
Finally, my PCs can get nipple tattoos.

My thoughts precisely.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on November 11, 2017, 01:40:34 PM
Quote from: Grapes on November 11, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
"-bugfix in how offense / defense was calculated"

I'm incredibly curious what this MEANS, but I'm guessing it will be a find out IG thing.

Typically when we list something as a bugfix it is, indeed, fixing a bug.  In this case it is something that looked to be miscalculating related to the guild revamp project so there shouldn't be any noticeable difference other than things are 'working as normal'.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kankfly on November 12, 2017, 05:37:12 AM
Quote
-added new location descriptions (tattoo/scar/etc...) for
  nipples
  eyebrows
  navel
  pelvis
  tongue
  lips

Does this include right ear and left ear?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on November 12, 2017, 11:26:29 AM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on November 12, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
I'd be okay with no-hands riding going away with few exceptions, but I know there would be those players who just only played those exceptions from then on with the insistence that it was the only state of viability.

However, yes, there were warnings put up with all this that there could be effects on skills while they were setting things up.  If it's permanent, I'd rather the rules be switched.  Riding with a shield is historically significant because of its feasibility and usefulness in mounted combat.  Riding with a bow is historically significant.  Riding as a mounted dual wielding berserker is not...so if we're gonna make it impossible for one style, lets at least make it the one that makes sense.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on November 12, 2017, 03:36:55 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on November 12, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
I'd be okay with no-hands riding going away with few exceptions, but I know there would be those players who just only played those exceptions from then on with the insistence that it was the only state of viability.

However, yes, there were warnings put up with all this that there could be effects on skills while they were setting things up.  If it's permanent, I'd rather the rules be switched.  Riding with a shield is historically significant because of its feasibility and usefulness in mounted combat.  Riding with a bow is historically significant.  Riding as a mounted dual wielding berserker is not...so if we're gonna make it impossible for one style, lets at least make it the one that makes sense.

10000% this.

Riding with a shield, is a time honored tradition in both the real world, and the Zalanthan world. Dual wielding? Not usually done in the real world but okay sure, fighting mounted while dual wielding? I would say stupendously difficult to do efficiently, but sure, lets go with it being possible.

I wouldnt care so much if nohands ride was completely removed, but dont remove only half of it. (the realistic half)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 12, 2017, 05:11:30 PM
Question, can you ride with just a shield, and draw your weapon as needed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on November 12, 2017, 05:32:39 PM
Quote from: Grapes on November 12, 2017, 05:11:30 PM
Question, can you ride with just a shield, and draw your weapon as needed?

I just logged in to test this, and you can still single-hand a shield and draw as necessary. The only issue then is that if you end up getting the worse end of the fight, you have to sheath your weapon before fleeing, presumably, or you will not move. However, this is at least livable for me.

I still am a bit concerned that this is happening after we were assured that the viability of older classes would not be undermined by new classes coming in, but in my opinion, this is inconvenient but not ruinous.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 12, 2017, 06:05:44 PM
Quote from: Vex on November 12, 2017, 02:26:53 PM
Elves approve.

In response to the last post, not to be snarky, but for a long  time the mounted races, in melee combat, have had their cake and eaten it too. I understand it may be frustrating, but some of us have the world's smallest violin playing in the back of our heads. I understand it's less than ideal, and this makes encountering enemies, both PCs, and NPCs, in the wild more difficult... but the mounted races still have a huge set of advantages, which, as someone said, is kind of how it ought to be.

EDIT: Thanks for testing that, btw. Glad it's livable and not game-breaking. I do see your point.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 12, 2017, 07:21:37 PM
Quote from: Namino on November 12, 2017, 05:32:39 PM
Quote from: Grapes on November 12, 2017, 05:11:30 PM
Question, can you ride with just a shield, and draw your weapon as needed?

I just logged in to test this, and you can still single-hand a shield and draw as necessary. The only issue then is that if you end up getting the worse end of the fight, you have to sheath your weapon before fleeing, presumably, or you will not move. However, this is at least livable for me.

I still am a bit concerned that this is happening after we were assured that the viability of older classes would not be undermined by new classes coming in, but in my opinion, this is inconvenient but not ruinous.

It's more a pain in the butt than ruinous. But it's still annoying to not get an announcement of it happening and having to figure it out. My current PC was able to ride with a shield and weapon for the last few months, so to suddenly not be able to is taking some adjustment.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 12, 2017, 07:32:41 PM
Moderated a few posts that were a tad snarky, others that varied between mis-leading and outright wrong, and others that delved a bit too deeply into uninformed opinions of game mechanics.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 12, 2017, 07:33:55 PM
Along with some other fixes identified from play testing, tomorrow should revert the functionality of riding with 0, 1, and 2 hands free for classic guilds to what it was before.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on November 12, 2017, 07:52:11 PM
(bummer!)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on November 12, 2017, 07:57:16 PM
(i can read these you know.)

good to see that this is being fixed and is clearly a bug, not the end of the world some people made it out to be. was this just an unintentional side effect of the new guilds?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 12, 2017, 08:15:38 PM
Quote from: nessalin on November 12, 2017, 07:33:55 PM
Along with some other fixes identified from play testing, tomorrow should revert the functionality of riding with 0, 1, and 2 hands free for classic guilds to what it was before.

Thank you!

I figured it had something to do with the new guilds and wasn't a feature, per se.

I'm bummed that I can't try these new guilds in the beta...You hear that ginka? It's an invitation to RoCk!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on November 16, 2017, 04:41:51 PM
removed code that hasn't been used in 20 years? can you tell us what it was? was it SPOOOOOOOOKY?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 16, 2017, 07:10:16 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 16, 2017, 04:41:51 PM
removed code that hasn't been used in 20 years? can you tell us what it was? was it SPOOOOOOOOKY?

Nothing exiting.  We used to define cities by blocks of hard coded room numbers, then switched to having properties on rooms.  All the old code was still there.  Stuff like that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 23, 2017, 02:06:32 PM
Finding spice decay to be a frustrating concept, though I suppose realistic. I'll never get to play a dwarf who builds a house out of bricks of tho now... but it makes sense. Illicit drugs and medicines do decay over time, although, much slower than foods, I guess due to oxidation and weathering from humidity and the like. I can only hope they decay veeeeery slowly, but that's up to the concept the staff is working with.

A concern regarding spice decay: The source of spice is patches of it naturally found under the sand. It would seem to me that something found in such a manner would be resistant to rotting, and possibly the refined stuff being even more resistant, if not outright immune (finally settling the debate as to how refined spice is superior to raw spice, giving a coded reason).

An idea to facilitate storage and sale of spice in a world where spice rots may be advanced packaging methods whereby Kurac would have determined an effective way to store bricks, perhaps wrapping them in paper and coating the brick in wax... This would make it possible to stockpile and transport, until unwrapped and shaven off, at which point it would begin to degrade. Unsure if that is in line with staff's intention with this change, just musing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Morrolan on November 23, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
Quote from: Grapes on November 23, 2017, 02:06:32 PM
Stuff

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 23, 2017, 02:41:31 PM
Yeah, having containers designed for Spice transport/storage (wrappings, wax-sealed boxes, etc.) sounds like a neat new addition to the Kuraci Arsenal for spice sales.

It'd be cool to see more adverse affects from using raw spice -- mutations, disease, or shorter lifespans. But I suppose that can mostly be RP'd by those living in Red Storm and using raw spice the most often.

I view refined spice vs unrefined spice as Cocaine vs Crack. It's the same substance, just cut with different stuff to make it worth more, worth less, and detrimental / not-as-detrimental.

More than anything i'd love for the 'addiction code' to output a variety of echoes depending on the spice you are addicted to. So if you are addicted to Thodeliv, your addiction presents as general laziness and yawning, and muscle atrophy sort of 'feels' and personalized echoes. If you are addicted to Krelez, you begin to act like a tweaker, getting hyper feels and paranoia. Addicted to Methelinoc, you begin to feel hazy, stupid, and forgetful. The current 'spam you with the come down message' doesn't do much in the way of encouraging RP -- It just makes you want to stop using to make the annoyance of the spammed messages cropping up every 5-10 minutes.

Attention to spice code makes me happy though, and I love that spice decays -- I think it's a great step towards making it a commodity to use and to seek out, rather than save up for a rainy day. It does present an interesting issue with Kemen...I suppose use it or lose it, or keep it on your person so it doesn't decay :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 23, 2017, 02:50:06 PM
Spice kits have been a part of this game for the better part of a decade, if not longer. You may find that properly containing your spice in containers designed to hold spice, like the aforementioned, might significantly increase the lifespan on any spice you may have - though, in a pinch, any container will do a half decent job.

Suffice it to say there is going to be -plenty- of time to use your spice so long as you aren't leaving it on the rug at home.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 23, 2017, 03:09:19 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 23, 2017, 02:50:06 PM
Spice kits have been a part of this game for the better part of a decade, if not longer. You may find that properly containing your spice in containers designed to hold spice, like the aforementioned, might significantly increase the lifespan on any spice you may have - though, in a pinch, any container will do a half decent job.

Suffice it to say there is going to be -plenty- of time to use your spice so long as you aren't leaving it on the rug at home.

I imagine the 'wrappings' that Kurac/others sell would be appropriate containers too?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 23, 2017, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 23, 2017, 02:50:06 PM
in a pinch,

Heh. Heh heh heh. Heheheheh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 23, 2017, 11:52:14 PM
What was the point of changing spice to decay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on November 24, 2017, 01:11:35 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 23, 2017, 11:52:14 PM
What was the point of changing spice to decay?

I'm betting it's use it or lose it.  Rather then just having spice sitting forever, it'll be sold, used or planted on some poor schmuck.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 24, 2017, 01:22:54 AM
The idea behind it was to better simulate supply and demand. Previously the demand for spice was very low because the people who could afford spice regularly usually could just find a cache of spice hidden around their estate that would last them and their next three successors the rest of their playtime. On the other end of the scale, the people who couldn't get spice on the regular but still puff puffed from time to time shouldn't see a huge difference because they don't tend to stockpile so much that they can't use it in the decay period.

Ideally, this will mean that people who can afford spice and should want spice now have a reason to get in contact with three clans specifically dedicated to getting spice into Allanak for consumption, and create new plots which were minimal and superficial - at best - and make them actually things that people may want to do.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LucildaHunta on November 24, 2017, 08:47:38 AM
Quote from: Akariel on November 24, 2017, 01:22:54 AM
Stuff...

Can't argue with any of that!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on November 24, 2017, 09:17:00 AM
At first glance I didn't really agree with spice decay, after thinking on it reading Akariel's post, it makes sense.  More smuggling sounds like a good idea after all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WarriorPoet on November 24, 2017, 11:33:44 AM
I love the changes to spice. Having played a spice hustler and been frustrated as hell, this is a good thing.

SPICE MUST FLOW. So smoke more of it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on November 24, 2017, 11:49:04 AM
Smoke spice every day!
(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/8409255.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on November 24, 2017, 12:46:35 PM
Thanks for the explanation. Good change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on November 24, 2017, 06:27:34 PM
I enjoy anything which stimulates the market. Armor degradation, food degradation, now spice degradation. All good moves by staff.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on November 26, 2017, 05:12:33 PM
I don't like decay. If feels like instead of using our props to facilitate roleplay we're using our props force it. It shouldn't be an OOC hassle to represent parts of the game world.

Now instead of having props that that help make a scene or to explain my character, I have to fully commit playtime to the upkeep of that prop. This just pushes me away from wanting to make a character who is a spice addict.

This would all be fine if that actually led to more interesting roleplay. Like, oh your shit decayed, so now you have to go seek out a PC dealer and re-up, yay more roleplay opportunity! Sadly that isn't how it usually works in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on November 26, 2017, 05:51:25 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 26, 2017, 05:12:33 PM
I don't like decay. If feels like instead of using our props to facilitate roleplay we're using our props force it. It shouldn't be an OOC hassle to represent parts of the game world.

Now instead of having props that that help make a scene or to explain my character, I have to fully commit playtime to the upkeep of that prop. This just pushes me away from wanting to make a character who is a spice addict.

This would all be fine if that actually led to more interesting roleplay. Like, oh your shit decayed, so now you have to go seek out a PC dealer and re-up, yay more roleplay opportunity! Sadly that isn't how it usually works in game.

If you're a spice addict, spice decay shouldn't affect you at all ;p

And it -does- lead to more interesting roleplay for those who are in the business of selling/buying spice.

Money sink is always a good thing, especially in a game like Armageddon where making money is ridiculously easy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 05:34:44 AM
Am I the only one who thinks the decay rate is incredibly fast?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but some spice that was in a worn container (though not a spice specific one) has already changed descriptive words twice since the announcement (I'm not quite sure what they all mean yet), and my playtimes are not super high.  I have seen food that is many times as old not decay at all during that same period.

If I had to guess, I would say it went from normal to state 1 to state 2 in the space of about 3 RL hours played.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on November 27, 2017, 06:27:34 AM
Yeah I like the idea of decay but IMO it should be very slow, and right now it seems SUPER fast. The speed of the decay particularly hurts tribals who like to put things in communal spaces for everyone to share rather than hoarding spice on their person.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on November 27, 2017, 07:24:37 AM
I'll go ahead and second what sleepyhead said. I like the idea, but it seems to decay faster than food. Even in my case and kit designed for spice.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 27, 2017, 07:34:25 AM
Yeah, honestly like I've never known any drug IRL to decompose faster than food, except for if by "drug" you mean like, medicine that's a suspension injection thing where you have to mix it up and then inject it immediately. It should decay a slight bit slower than food in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on November 27, 2017, 07:40:18 AM
I smoked a tube that looked normal, but turned rock-hard before the last puff..
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whitt on November 27, 2017, 11:13:07 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on November 27, 2017, 07:40:18 AM
I smoked a tube that looked normal, but turned rock-hard before the last puff..

giggity!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on November 27, 2017, 11:36:10 AM
keep the speedy decay. Make it last twice as long, when injested.
Problem solved, everybody gets addicted.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 12:22:57 PM
I second that I like the idea of decay overall, but at the current rate I'm seeing, I think it reduces the ability to play some things, like: a casual spice hunter (getting 50 grains before the first ones decay could prove really difficult, unless I misunderstand the levels and how the states affect saleability), someone who uses many different types of spice but only in specific circumstances, someone who does not have regular access to a dealer (be it due to playtimes or role - if it takes RL days of time to contact a dealer, such people will never be able to throw a party with spice, because it will decay before the RPT), etc.

Also, I'm not aware of any spice specific containers available from NPCs in either Allanak (proper) or Red Storm, so it would seem to require a PC to track down Kurac ASAP, and disproportionately punish those who can't, both now and in the future.

Quote from: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 05:34:44 AM
my playtimes are not super high.

Had to double back for the unintended pun.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on November 27, 2017, 12:30:12 PM
Spice has almost always been a "Flavor" item in the game, despite some having some serious coded advantages and disadvantages. Recently, staff have tried making it "easier" to obtain, they made it CHEAPER so people would be more open to it. Now they're adding the rot-code to it, which I think really fleshes out the idea of "I really need a pinch right now, oh man I better find someone". Unfortunately, people would rather a shiny new breastplate that protects just as well as their old breastplate but has the "shiny" keyword attached, than they would an on-demand stat-boost.

I'm down for making the effects last 90minutes/9 in game hours so that it goes from Dawn to Hunt, to Late at Night to come down. Let it rot, but make it more feasible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on November 27, 2017, 12:31:49 PM
 Drugs go bad all the time.

But not like this. I'de like to see bad spice...Be bad for you. Make you sick.  Maybe bad tho gives you terradin. Bad krentakh makes you mul rage. ect.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on November 27, 2017, 03:31:46 PM
I have not had a chance to thoroughly test the spice decay yet but there are two things that come to mind when reading it:

Quote from: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 12:22:57 PM
a casual spice hunter (getting 50 grains before the first ones decay could prove really difficult, unless I misunderstand the levels and how the states affect saleability)

I have played characters who were solely, or mostly, spice hunters and you can go RL days between being able to go out sifting again. You have 25 grains, you need 25 more, check the weather but it's too stormy around Red Storm to see anything. These storms, especially around Red Storm, can be too fierce to see for two or three days in a row (it might have some lulls that occur during the night but you still can't see to forage then) and if you're unlucky enough to log on only during these times you can go quite a while before you can sift more.

Quote from: James de Monet on November 27, 2017, 12:22:57 PM
Also, I'm not aware of any spice specific containers available from NPCs in either Allanak (proper) or Red Storm, so it would seem to require a PC to track down Kurac ASAP, and disproportionately punish those who can't, both now and in the future.

Kron in the Kurac Warehouse has a leather spice pouch in his list of goods for sale. One. When that sells, to a pc or npc, you need to wait for another reboot. Perhaps someone could edit his merchant file and increase the number he has on offer until someone custom crafts a spice hunters bag?

My second concern is that 16 Zalanthan days is 24 hours. That seems awfully short and I fear will mean people no longer stash any spice in an apartment. It means it will become much rarer burglars breaking in to find some spice, or to plant some spice and call a Templar, as you would have to co-ordinate everything within a single day or the spice poofs. People will be logging out with their spice to preserve the timer on it. The Allanaki Vice Squad won't be able to search an apartment to find spice :(

I think increasing the decay time to about a Zalanthan month would ease a lot of things. If you only need to contact your dealer every two RL weeks you would be more comfortable leaving spice in your apartment and it would certainly give sifters plenty of time to grab up their allotment.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on November 27, 2017, 03:48:28 PM
A month would be great I think.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaLeah on November 27, 2017, 04:07:08 PM
I've had the same weed for years. Like 5 years. Is it as potent as it was back then? No. But I still have it and yes, it still gets me high.

I like spice decay but not in its current form. I would appreciate it so much more if it LOST potency instead. Drugs don't turn to dust, trust me and my 5yr old ganja.  Could we make the high last less time or even risk having little to NO effect if it's old depending on how old? My super rich spice addict nooble WANTS to buy that 12 year vintage off the street rat. Imagine the role-play possibilities if it's shit to smoke! Murder!

While you're at it, cure shelf life. Make it happen. So long days of people keeping the same pills in their pouches for IC years.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 27, 2017, 04:37:55 PM
Pills suddenly not working would shake things up to a much better degree than dying spice addicts because the spice doesn't last long enough to deliver... personally, I would think, not good. Poison cure decay can be good, but not if there's no indication of degree of rot, not if it's hastily implemented without thought of the required logistics to get a cure pouch.

That would mean, the rest of you would be entirely at my mercy if I decided to throw a knife, and that should not be a comforting thought.

EDIT: Yeah, make spice last a few years. As it stands it seems to rot almost immediately.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on November 27, 2017, 06:19:58 PM
The same day I read about the decaying spice, I actually found some spice (in a pouch somewhere) and thought, hm, this saves me a trip to get spice! A real life hour later, it was all oily, and the next real life day it was hard as a rock. That seems a little too quick, although getting TO spice isn't impossible, it would be VERY difficult if I was playing something like a dainty noble aide or a shy daisy of a crafter.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 27, 2017, 06:48:41 PM
A few years defeats the purpose. I think maybe one year, or two months, would be a good time for it to last. One month maybe - that's, what, two IRL weeks? But two days is ridiculous. Not even cakes IRL decay that fast, let alone what is basically weed/etc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on November 27, 2017, 06:53:45 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheHandmaid on November 27, 2017, 07:16:26 PM
Two real life days is just going to encouragee me not to need or use it. I cannot play everyday and it would be unfair to hold other's responsible for its drying out due to my unavailability for delivery.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 27, 2017, 08:07:18 PM
If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get. Unrefined, grain forms of spice will not last excessively long. And yes, this may cause a problem with the Spice Buyer NPC - Which is why Nessalin removed the 50 grain minimum to sell to him. You no longer need to wait to have 50 spices in your pouch to sell.

A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 27, 2017, 08:15:07 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 27, 2017, 08:07:18 PM
If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get. Unrefined, grain forms of spice will not last excessively long. And yes, this may cause a problem with the Spice Buyer NPC - Which is why Nessalin removed the 50 grain minimum to sell to him. You no longer need to wait to have 50 spices in your pouch to sell.

A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.

Well, those are good, good numbers. I guess it's just been some inconsistencies right now, that hopefully folk who are running into them more frequently can slam out. Once that's done, I see no reason at all to consider this an issue at all. Thank you for taking the time to explain, and good luck to those bughunting!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on November 28, 2017, 02:30:21 AM
Oh, yeah.  I'm way more comfortable with those numbers than I was with my extrapolations from what I was seeing (but again, it's hard to tell, since I haven't deciphered the states yet - I filed a bug report in case you want to verify what I'm seeing, Akariel).  Thanks for the reply.

Edit: typo
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: manipura on November 28, 2017, 02:36:48 AM
Quote from: Akariel on November 27, 2017, 08:07:18 PM
If your spice is rotting within 24 hours, you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and unfortunately that's what you get.

Quote
A single grain of spice on the floor will last, on average, 24 RL hours. If you put it in a standard backpack it should last 42.75 RL days, on average. If you are noticing a discrepancy with that please send in a request to let us know.

A single -pinch- of spice, for reference, can last 126.375 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is almost half a year. The larger the amount of spice, the slower it decays. A brick of spice, for instance, can last 378 RL days, on average, inside a non-specific container. That is over a RL year.

If you are noticing inconsistencies, it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty and needs to be looked into. Please send in a bug request so we can take a look into it.

I didn't log in over Thanksgiving when this change went active and I came back a day or two later to several pinches of spice, in a non-specific container, decayed to a point where they couldn't be used one way but could be used another.  I think this was the second level of decay, but I'm not sure.

On the one hand you say if your spice is decaying extremely quickly you bought shitty spice, on the other hand you're saying that maybe some of the math is off.

Two game weeks is vastly different from half a year.  How do we know the difference between "it's possible some of the math on our end is a bit faulty" and "you bought shitty non-Kuraci spice and that's what you get"?  Send in bug requests for all inconsistencies, I guess?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 28, 2017, 02:39:51 AM
Sounds like a bug!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on November 28, 2017, 03:00:26 AM
if it's a grain it's probably not kuraci, afaik the only way to get anything that isn't a grain is literally to get it from kurac.

i could be wrong. but it's one of those "merchant house secrets" like salarr (probably?) is the one who forges -any- metal weapons for the big black robes and kadius "probably" makes the metal rings you see nobles wearing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 28, 2017, 01:43:54 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 28, 2017, 03:00:26 AM
if it's a grain it's probably not kuraci, afaik the only way to get anything that isn't a grain is literally to get it from kurac.

i could be wrong. but it's one of those "merchant house secrets" like salarr (probably?) is the one who forges -any- metal weapons for the big black robes and kadius "probably" makes the metal rings you see nobles wearing.

You used to be able to forage a pinch-sized amount of at least one type of spice, that I can remember.

I haven't foraged for spice in a long time though, so I suppose they could've changed it.

Also, technically, there are a few au naturel spice objects that aren't grains/pinches/knots/thal-knots/bricks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 28, 2017, 01:57:06 PM
I've seen knots of spice decay way faster than the discussed time-frame. Might want to take a closer look at that, honestly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 28, 2017, 04:46:46 PM
Yes, it appears the decay rate is off. We're working on it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 02:58:14 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 28, 2017, 04:46:46 PM
Yes, it appears the decay rate is off. We're working on it.
This should be fixed now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on November 29, 2017, 03:31:37 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 28, 2017, 03:00:26 AM
if it's a grain it's probably not kuraci, afaik the only way to get anything that isn't a grain is literally to get it from kurac.

i could be wrong. but it's one of those "merchant house secrets" like salarr (probably?) is the one who forges -any- metal weapons for the big black robes and kadius "probably" makes the metal rings you see nobles wearing.

Yeah, a 'pinch' is the smallest amount of spice available from Kurac. A 'grain' is the smallest unrefined amount.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?

For the most part, all spice that was stored properly should still be in working order - except for maybe grains or pinches. I'll do reimbursements if needed, of course.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on November 29, 2017, 03:35:43 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?

For the most part, all spice that was stored properly should still be in working order - except for maybe grains or pinches. I'll do reimbursements if needed, of course.

Darn, I trashed all the spice that went bad, suppose that's on me. Glad to hear it's working now tough!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: manipura on November 29, 2017, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: Grapes on November 29, 2017, 03:35:43 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 03:33:25 PM
Quote from: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
Should people file reimbursements for spice that went bad in the interim, or just suck it up to a batch of low-grade crack?

For the most part, all spice that was stored properly should still be in working order - except for maybe grains or pinches. I'll do reimbursements if needed, of course.

Darn, I trashed all the spice that went bad, suppose that's on me. Glad to hear it's working now tough!

Same.  At that point I was still under the assumption it was working as intended and I didn't want to be bothered with all this half-spoiled spice that I wasn't going to use before it went bad.  I also wasn't sure how else to store and just didn't want to deal with all that so I figured just be done with it and toss most of what was left.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 06:25:00 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on November 29, 2017, 06:38:19 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 06:25:00 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.

That's a nice touch actually. It's nice to see remnants of 'what happened', rather than it just disappearing and making you think you were robbed or it simply poofed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on November 29, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 06:25:00 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.

So if I'm reading this right, rock-hard is the worst modifier for spice, indicating that it is now useless and about to decay into nothing?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 29, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on November 29, 2017, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: Akariel on November 29, 2017, 06:25:00 PM
Spice will decay into nothing given enough time, the rock-hard stuff is just there to indicate that it has decayed entirely, so people don't ask WHAT HAPPENED TO MY SPICE IT'S GONE!?

Like I said, if you need a reimbursement, please send one in.

So if I'm reading this right, rock-hard is the worst modifier for spice, indicating that it is now useless and about to decay into nothing?

Yup. It's the "spoiled" of spice, I suppose.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 08, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
I'm pretty sure there's still an issue with this, at least, from my perspective, after receiving a reimb and the next day, despite the spice being put in "appropriate containers" it was already too old to roll or sniff. I'm not going to bother anyone with another request tool report either though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on December 08, 2017, 06:37:05 PM
Quote from: stark on December 08, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
I'm pretty sure there's still an issue with this, at least, from my perspective, after receiving a reimb and the next day, despite the spice being put in "appropriate containers" it was already too old to roll or sniff. I'm not going to bother anyone with another request tool report either though.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1002613.html#msg1002613

Make Smoke Pinch Papers coming soon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 08, 2017, 06:46:42 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on December 10, 2017, 04:58:33 PM
Quote-Armor tailor bug fixed where armor that was re-sized would have the # of armor points provided 
  increased/decreased proportionally.

Does this mean that for example, half-giant armor is now the same amount of armor as a humans armor?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on December 10, 2017, 05:27:28 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on December 10, 2017, 04:58:33 PM
Quote-Armor tailor bug fixed where armor that was re-sized would have the # of armor points provided
  increased/decreased proportionally.

Does this mean that for example, half-giant armor is now the same amount of armor as a humans armor?

Specific gear designed for specific things (like a half giant wearing it) will have stats specifically made to fit that gear.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on December 16, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
So this reboot saw a few cool additions: threaten skill/command and NPC medics will heal damaged people (I'm expecting this is specific to clan sawbones like the one in the Byn).

I expect some people will think the threaten skill is unnecessary. After hearing for years about how raiders have it tough because people just spam flee, I think it's great for them to have code to back up what their character would try to do (i.e. attack someone if they try to flee). This will help give raiders a chance to roleplay more and code less. I've already seen people be less likely to auto-flee when they see another PC in the desert. Hopefully this will give raiders the support they need.

But in addition to helping support raiders, this will also help criminals such as thugs. We already got significant support for those PCs in the past with crim code getting turned off at night under certain conditions (at least, I'm pretty sure that's what happened. It's been a while since I've read the release notes for that). Now they'll be able to roleplay out threatening people for whatever they have on them.

All in all, it looks like good support for criminals wherever they might be.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 16, 2017, 05:41:04 PM
I once had a PC in Tuluk who was threatened by a bunch of elves (which I'm pretty sure was one of Malifaxis' elves) and while at the time I was livid about the fact that it DID happen, I admit that I could've just fled away and escaped the situation entirely.

This makes it so much easier for 2-3 people to pull off a mugging without guarding all the exits, hoping, and at least seventeen prayers to the Ginka.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on December 16, 2017, 06:01:47 PM
This is an exciting change that will open more avenues for fun RP instead of feeling like you need to perraine stab your mark so they don't run away.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2017, 06:40:00 PM
Quote from: John on December 16, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
So this reboot saw a few cool additions: threaten skill/command and NPC medics will heal damaged people (I'm expecting this is specific to clan sawbones like the one in the Byn).

This applies to any NPC that has both the bandage skill and a bandage item in their inventory.   When they are in the room with a friendly (same clan, usually) character that needs to be healed the NPC will make the attempt.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on December 16, 2017, 06:40:45 PM
This is cool and something I have wanted for a long time. But now im afraid people will be more willing to just run from every encounter so you dont even have the chance to threaten. Something I never considered until now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on December 16, 2017, 06:49:09 PM
Very cool addition. Can't wait to try it out (and have it tried out on my PCs).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on December 16, 2017, 06:49:55 PM
I hope that the 'threaten' command will be delayed in the same way that many commands are when moving between rooms. It shouldn't be possible to just teleport up to people and threaten them. The converse of danger when fleeing is being able to see people approaching you before they are within striking distance, something that is a lot easier in reality than in the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WarriorPoet on December 16, 2017, 07:58:45 PM
E (charging up, weapon at the ready); threaten badguy

This is an awesome addition. I recently had an encounter where it would have come in handy.

Question:

Is there a delay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2017, 08:20:10 PM
Quote from: WarriorPoet on December 16, 2017, 07:58:45 PM
Question:

Is there a delay?

As per the help file (https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Threaten), the delay comes after.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on December 16, 2017, 08:20:16 PM
after


edit: god damnit nessalin i was gonna answer it ;_;
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on December 16, 2017, 10:44:39 PM
This is a good skill, glad to see it being implemented.

However, I am curious what happens if the first command the victim types is 'flee self'. Will the victim fail or be stopped from fleeing, or combat will start and the victim flees anyways? The raider is delayed after using the threaten skill so its easy for the victim to get away.

I can't help but think that chase should also be made a skill, allowing a chance to chase through flee (depending on chase skill vs flee skill). I've always been a fan of making the flee skill more important. Unfortunately, I digress, this is probably another thread all together.

Either way good addition and an improvement to the over all experience.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 16, 2017, 11:10:31 PM
Quote from: Dresan on December 16, 2017, 10:44:39 PM
This is a good skill, glad to see it being implemented.

However, I am curious what happens if the first command the victim types is 'flee self'. Will the victim fail or be stopped from fleeing, or combat will start and the victim flees anyways? The raider is delayed after using the threaten skill so its easy for the victim to get away.

I can't help but think that chase should also be made a skill, allowing a chance to chase through flee (depending on chase skill vs flee skill). I've always been a fan of making the flee skill more important. Unfortunately, I digress, this is probably another thread all together.

Either way good addition and an improvement to the over all experience.

Raider uses the threaten command on Merchant.
Raider is now threatening Merchant.
Raider is now lagged from the threaten command.

Merchant types 'flee self'
Raider's threaten has a 35% chance of succeeding.

Threaten succeeds:
  Raider immediately attacks Merchant
  Raider is still lagged from threaten, however, so none of Raider commands will go through until that ends.

Threaten fails:
  Merchant flees.
  Raider is still lagged from threaten and cannot give chase until the threaten lag wears off.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on December 16, 2017, 11:23:18 PM
I would assume combat begins immediately, but any subsequent input commands (kick, bash, flee) would be after the delay.

Edit: Yep, I either didn't notice, or I got ninja'd, by Ness.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SlaughterHouse5 on December 17, 2017, 12:18:54 AM
If the threaten succeeds and you do attack in a crimcoded area, you'll still become Wanted, right?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 17, 2017, 08:41:31 AM
I don't suppose this resolves the "raider" making the demand for coins, the "merchant" paying it, and then still being killed by the "raider".
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rathustra on December 17, 2017, 08:57:43 AM
Quote from: stark on December 17, 2017, 08:41:31 AM
I don't suppose this resolves the "raider" making the demand for coins, the "merchant" paying it, and then still being killed by the "raider".

What's to resolve here? This is a classic example of the scorpion and the fox.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on December 17, 2017, 09:04:47 AM
backstab rathustra

EDIT: Wasn't it the frog and the scorpion?

EDIT2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI7VT9W587c
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: KankWhisperer on December 17, 2017, 02:51:31 PM
Would threaten trigger crim code in the city or in front of soldiers immediately?

Would the attack go through before or after the action they are threatening against? If it's before you can even draw a weapon I think that 'combat' types should have some skill to get their weapon out before the attack at least.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on December 17, 2017, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: Grapes on December 17, 2017, 09:04:47 AM
backstab rathustra

EDIT: Wasn't it the frog and the scorpion?

EDIT2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI7VT9W587c

Some versions of the story replace the frog and/or scorpion with other animals.  The moral is the same.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on December 17, 2017, 03:59:23 PM
There doesn't seem to be any additional lag to the victim so even after a successful threaten skill, they can just type flee again (assuming the first command of the victim is stopped?) and be on their way. This isn't a necessarily a bad thing, of course.

My original concern here was the flee command would still go through immediately, even though threaten started an attack. In the past I had an experience where I attacked someone, and they would flee instantly. I think they had flee triggered/macro because they would flee so quickly, my character didn't even have a chance to attack even once after starting the fight.

The threaten skill is basically a good RP tool. Even at 100 percent of threaten skill success there would be no issue since it would still give a chance to RP the situation. Similar as a raider running in and typing kill merchant since the kill command is also 100 percent chance of success but gives no chance for RP.

I wouldn't mind seeing characters that can master threaten skill get a chance to delay their victim when the victim performs their first command. The delay on the victim side would be shorter than that of the raider, however, it would make people think twice about whether or not fleeing is a good enough option versus trying to RP it out. Though this might skew things in favor of the raider side of things, lets not forget anyone outside the walls leaves understanding the many dangers and should be coming prepared. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on December 17, 2017, 04:23:58 PM
The threaten command is pretty neat, imo. Have yet to see it used, but think some should be able to get it to master (once it's properly tested), particularly, raiders and thugs.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 18, 2017, 09:23:13 AM
I cannot wait to use threaten, at least it will be a way to codedly represent "I am here to raid you and willing to RP out the scene, not just attack immediately. Stand down."

I have similar concerns about the legalities of threaten that I'm SURE I'll find out ICly.

My worry is that if someone tries to flee from a threaten, and the raider successfully attacks, there is still no lag on the person BEING threatened, who can just spam "flee self" and run away immediately after, while the raider is still recovering and "positioning" from their threatening behavior.

I also wonder if threaten can be used OUT of hide... like hide;sneak;e;threaten merchant to kind of "pop out of the shadows, a blade extended" kind of threatening.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 02:27:18 PM
QuoteMy worry is that if someone tries to flee from a threaten, and the raider successfully attacks, there is still no lag on the person BEING threatened, who can just spam "flee self" and run away immediately after, while the raider is still recovering and "positioning" from their threatening behavior.

I'm okay with this.  There is no 'you -can't- escape' mode that I would support; this is the closest it comes, I think.  This is where you position, and immediately it comes to your strength and skill making it.  If the flee triggers attacks of opportunity on the way out as well, there will probably be a few cases of insta-ko's that we hear about (I'm not sure if they do.  Threaten 'engages', then the flee happens?  So attacks of opportunity should happen there if the flee skill isn't high, at least sometimes, right?  That's a lot of free attacks.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 18, 2017, 03:11:03 PM
That's a fair point. The chance of attack for them trying to flee, added onto the Attack of Opportunity reaction would at least be enough to say "be careful next time" or administer poison, or in fact do enough damage to drop them.

I'm okay with it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on December 18, 2017, 03:34:59 PM
It also at once seems to encourage threatening (and traveling) with groups of people, as to avoid the consequences in either respect of traveling or threatening on ones own.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 03:43:06 PM
One question I'd have, less about the code itself and more about it's use (from other players)...

Threaten vs Guard:
Is guard now something you use only for generic use while idle, or for nonspecificity?  For stopping groups?  It seems drastically more effective for all cases to just threaten off the bat to restrict movement, rather than guard entry into or out of an area.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 18, 2017, 03:50:20 PM
I would assume that Threaten is just to auto-initiate combat, right out the gate. Conversely, Guard is to prevent someone from moving past in a non-threatening manner.

So you can guard your employer, and step in in case they ARE attacked, or you can overtly threaten someone who MIGHT attack, and intercept them that way.

My concern is: If you're guarding someone, and threaten a third person, do you stop guarding? If you fail the Threat Intercept, does your guard still check?

I'm sure its find out IC, but that's a good question.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 04:26:48 PM
Maybe guard should hard-counter threaten?

I.e. 'You move to threaten so and so, but his guard moves between you and so and so.' or 'You move to attack him for moving west, but the guard there moves inbetween you and him.'

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on December 18, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 04:26:48 PM
Maybe guard should hard-counter threaten?

I.e. 'You move to threaten so and so, but his guard moves between you and so and so.' or 'You move to attack him for moving west, but the guard there moves inbetween you and him.'

This is already coded.

If the Merchant is guarded by Guard, then Raider will get a fail message when they attempt to 'threaten merchant'.

"You move to threaten a weak-chinned merchant but a broad-chested guard steps in the way!"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on December 18, 2017, 06:55:00 PM
I just love those descriptions of the people.

Serious:
I for one foresee a lot of use with raiding, but there is another aspect that has yet to be mentioned, Soldiers.

A soldier could threaten 'bad guy' to effectively, at least somewhat, detain a guy without actually physically holding the dude down, and I think that would be a good thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 08:50:52 PM
Quote from: nessalin on December 18, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on December 18, 2017, 04:26:48 PM
Maybe guard should hard-counter threaten?

I.e. 'You move to threaten so and so, but his guard moves between you and so and so.' or 'You move to attack him for moving west, but the guard there moves inbetween you and him.'

This is already coded.

If the Merchant is guarded by Guard, then Raider will get a fail message when they attempt to 'threaten merchant'.

"You move to threaten a weak-chinned merchant but a broad-chested guard steps in the way!"

Awesome!  Thanks for the heads up, this makes me look forward to some things!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stark on December 22, 2017, 12:00:56 PM
Having received a reimb for spice on December 7th, I just noticed that ALL of the spice is gone, totally decayed, despite being put in spice containers. Since that is only 14 RL days, and all knots and other spices are gone, and I'm not even sure when that happened, is this code fixed, or did I read it wrong when I read that it would last like 167 RL days?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on December 22, 2017, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: stark on December 22, 2017, 12:00:56 PM
Having received a reimb for spice on December 7th, I just noticed that ALL of the spice is gone, totally decayed, despite being put in spice containers. Since that is only 14 RL days, and all knots and other spices are gone, and I'm not even sure when that happened, is this code fixed, or did I read it wrong when I read that it would last like 167 RL days?

The hotfix released on the 14th of the month should have fixed this issue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on January 30, 2018, 10:53:34 PM
An update to Mekillot combat intelligence, hell to the yes, make those bastards dangerous to an absurd degree.

What sort of tricks are we looking at here though? Will they change opponent for example, or are we simply talking things like bashing folks and such?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on January 31, 2018, 11:15:22 AM
If youre on the receiving end of threaten code, will it engage combat if you:

get coins <container> ?

get weapon <container>?

get <object> from ground?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grogerif on January 31, 2018, 12:15:47 PM
I actually love the idea of threaten being triggered (on a failure) by innocent actions.

get coins pouch
brutish half-giant hits you for remainder of your health
Brutish half-giant says in sirihish "Sorry Boss, he twitched, I thought he was reaching for a weapon."

Wonderful times. (even though I'd likely be playing the smear)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on January 31, 2018, 11:16:53 PM
Right now the skinned-items-decay seems to be about 7 or 8 minutes or so. That's... kind of quick. Any chance it could be adjusted to 15 minutes or so? I don't think hides should just sink into the ground after less than an ingame hour, for instance.

This happened inside a village, in case that changes things.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tortall on February 01, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on January 31, 2018, 11:16:53 PM
Right now the skinned-items-decay seems to be about 7 or 8 minutes or so. That's... kind of quick. Any chance it could be adjusted to 15 minutes or so? I don't think hides should just sink into the ground after less than an ingame hour, for instance.

This happened inside a village, in case that changes things.

So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
Quote from: tortall on February 01, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on January 31, 2018, 11:16:53 PM
Right now the skinned-items-decay seems to be about 7 or 8 minutes or so. That's... kind of quick. Any chance it could be adjusted to 15 minutes or so? I don't think hides should just sink into the ground after less than an ingame hour, for instance.

This happened inside a village, in case that changes things.

So... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

No I think she's talking about out in the wilds, post skinning.

Rather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

>The item is here, partially covered in sand. (Still visible)
>The item is here, buried in sand. (Still visible)
>The item gets buried. (Buried, not visible)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on February 01, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
QuoteSo... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

QuoteRather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 11:55:00 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on February 01, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
QuoteSo... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

QuoteRather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.

I know about bury code, bra. Just saying it'd be cool to have the items go in-between 'uncovered' and 'buried' in stages. No need to agree with me!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on February 01, 2018, 02:27:40 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on February 01, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
QuoteSo... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

QuoteRather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.

Next time maybe don't say "next time maybe" as a suggestion for how to play the game.

"Next time maybe don't be an asshole." "Please think about your words before you post."
"Next time maybe think about what you're doing." "There is more to this, and here is what I can share."
"Next time maybe play around with code I'm assuming you didn't even know about." "Here is the code I don't think you know about, give it a try!"
"Next time maybe read what the person says and weigh your response carefully." "Please respond thoughtfully to your fellow commenters."
"Next time maybe leave open comments to those with better Customer Service skills." "If you can't say it nicely, step back and think about it."

See how "next time maybe" sounds a lot more condescending than it should?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 01, 2018, 03:04:52 PM
Quote from: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 11:55:00 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on February 01, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
QuoteSo... If we have a stack of hides NOT in a container inside a building.... Do they also decay?

That would basically be pretty unplayable.  The stuff only sinks into the ground if someone skins something and then doesn't pick it up.

QuoteRather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

Forage artifact.

Next time maybe play around with the code and how it works.

I know about bury code, bra. Just saying it'd be cool to have the items go in-between 'uncovered' and 'buried' in stages. No need to agree with me!

No, it literally does that already. You can forage artifacts for anything that has been skinned and sunk into the ground.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on February 01, 2018, 03:08:37 PM
QuoteRather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

>The item is here, partially covered in sand. (Still visible)
>The item is here, buried in sand. (Still visible)
>The item gets buried. (Buried, not visible)

I think what he meant, here, is that there could be coded stages to an item disappearing. Currently it just disappears entirely after a set time, and Veselka was saying "It'd be cool if" the Bury system came into play and scripted out the items in the forage artifact table, rather than disappearing from the game altogether.

Personally I disagree, its just more for the system to track and nobody is going to go digging for scrab guts, but that's what he meant.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 01, 2018, 03:28:42 PM
Quote from: Riev on February 01, 2018, 03:08:37 PM
QuoteRather than sinking into the ground, it'd be cool if items naturally became 'buried' in a room, as in sand blows over them and covers them. So you can still find some of the stuff, but you'll have to go digging in the sand.

>The item is here, partially covered in sand. (Still visible)
>The item is here, buried in sand. (Still visible)
>The item gets buried. (Buried, not visible)

I think what he meant, here, is that there could be coded stages to an item disappearing. Currently it just disappears entirely after a set time, and Veselka was saying "It'd be cool if" the Bury system came into play and scripted out the items in the forage artifact table, rather than disappearing from the game altogether.

Personally I disagree, its just more for the system to track and nobody is going to go digging for scrab guts, but that's what he meant.

Yes, it does move items to the bury table, which is foraged through 'forage artifact' just like what happens if a body with loot on it decays in an appropriate room.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 01, 2018, 03:49:08 PM
No, all I was saying is for the sake of flavor and 'we are all in a yellow submarine, I mean, the desert', that the items have a sort of decay code attached, wherein they appear as half-buried, then fully buried. Literally just a shower thought, NBD.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on February 01, 2018, 04:34:10 PM

I like the idea of stages of buried, but it's a recode.

Right now you're in a stage where you will have crap littering the desert, but it'll be all hidden.

So you'll just pop out the west gate, roam 4-5 rooms northwestish and type " forage artifact for ivory" to load up on chalton horn.

How long do the buried objects persist in memory in non-save rooms? Until the next reboot?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on February 01, 2018, 04:43:46 PM
Heh, this explains some things.  Also, now I'm just going to be waiting for the time I:

>forage artifact
You find a medallion of Tektolnes, and pick it up.

>em chokes in shock
>bury medallion
>flee self
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on February 01, 2018, 08:59:15 PM
Quote from: Miradus on February 01, 2018, 04:34:10 PM
How long do the buried objects persist in memory in non-save rooms? Until the next reboot?

Yes, reboot, unless the room happened to be a save room.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on February 05, 2018, 06:16:57 PM

From today's release notes on decapped heads ...

If I put a decapped head in a food bin/pouch and close it, will it still degrade?

In the (mostly hypothetical) situation where I'd need to keep a head around for awhile for my own nefarious reasons ... what would be the method?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 05, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
Is it purposeful that you can no longer "pack" bodies onto mounts?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on February 05, 2018, 06:24:32 PM
So... were mekillots invincible for a while before this last reboot?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on February 05, 2018, 06:31:02 PM
What's up with the new parry/block messages? They're super neat, but it's confusing what has changed. Are opponents put off balance by a mediocre parry/block?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on February 06, 2018, 12:47:41 PM
Persistent mount stats through stabling would be cool
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 01:52:43 PM
Quote from: Cind on February 05, 2018, 06:24:32 PM
So... were mekillots invincible for a while before this last reboot?

No.

One of their special attacks could have its damage reduced to 0 by way of natural armor and worn armor.

Even when the damage was at 0, however, the message indicated that they had inflicted damage.

The message about inflicting damage should now only appear when damage is greater than 0.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: Delirium on February 05, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
Is it purposeful that you can no longer "pack" bodies onto mounts?

Fixed in today's release.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 01:57:55 PM
Quote from: Veselka on February 05, 2018, 06:31:02 PM
What's up with the new parry/block messages? They're super neat, but it's confusing what has changed. Are opponents put off balance by a mediocre parry/block?

They're just flavor text.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Chettaman on February 06, 2018, 02:02:32 PM
I thought not packing animals was cool.
I just didn't realize how much it had changed hunting, but I was definitely ready to adjust.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 04:25:58 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on February 06, 2018, 02:02:32 PM
I thought not packing animals was cool.
I just didn't realize how much it had changed hunting, but I was definitely ready to adjust.

It was a debatable 'fix'.  The only reason corpses were packable on mounts is due to a conceit in the code where corpses were technically containers (so that things can be taken out of them).  This is most apparently in the error message when trying to pack non-containers on a mount.

Still, packing corpses on mounts has been possible for so long it kind of got grandfathered in.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on February 06, 2018, 04:44:31 PM
Nessalin,

Could your recent code changes eventually lead to corpses showing a cause of death ?

That would be super cool.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: James de Monet on February 06, 2018, 10:44:07 PM
>the body of the mansa-esque man is here, dead of asking for another present when he just got one
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 06, 2018, 10:46:36 PM
Quote from: nessalin on February 06, 2018, 04:25:58 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on February 06, 2018, 02:02:32 PM
I thought not packing animals was cool.
I just didn't realize how much it had changed hunting, but I was definitely ready to adjust.

It was a debatable 'fix'.  The only reason corpses were packable on mounts is due to a conceit in the code where corpses were technically containers (so that things can be taken out of them).  This is most apparently in the error message when trying to pack non-containers on a mount.

Still, packing corpses on mounts has been possible for so long it kind of got grandfathered in.

I just like to be able to sling a corpse over the back of my mount and ride into the sunset. Thank you for keeping this possible!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on February 08, 2018, 11:40:12 AM
QuoteA naked busy construction crew is standing here.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/225/zAp2LzJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chavo on February 08, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
STAFF: We are going to make these large dangerous creatures as dangerous as they should be, requiring large groups and costing significant coins to acquire their materials.

ALSO STAFF: Lol you got 1 bone from a building sized monster: Git Gud Skinnerz
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on February 08, 2018, 01:45:47 PM
Quote from: Namino on February 08, 2018, 11:40:12 AM
QuoteA naked busy construction crew is standing here.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/017/225/zAp2LzJ.jpg)

They work hard, they play hard.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 08, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: chavo on February 08, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
STAFF: We are going to make these large dangerous creatures as dangerous as they should be, requiring large groups and costing significant coins to acquire their materials.

ALSO STAFF: Lol you got 1 bone from a building sized monster: Git Gud Skinnerz

This has not been the case since we updated various house-sized creatures 1-2 years ago. Search 'Meatcraft' on the forums for more information.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on February 08, 2018, 04:37:03 PM
Quote from: Akariel on February 08, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: chavo on February 08, 2018, 12:49:38 PM
STAFF: We are going to make these large dangerous creatures as dangerous as they should be, requiring large groups and costing significant coins to acquire their materials.

ALSO STAFF: Lol you got 1 bone from a building sized monster: Git Gud Skinnerz

This has not been the case since we updated various house-sized creatures 1-2 years ago. Search 'Meatcraft' on the forums for more information.

I think he means that you could still technically "fail" your skinning attempt and barely get anything usable.

You know. The old "I guess I stabbed this gortok a dozen too many times to have a usable hide" bit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: solera on February 10, 2018, 12:19:23 AM
QuoteUndressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on February 10, 2018, 04:31:32 AM
Staff: Every npc in the game is now naked
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Quote from: solera on February 10, 2018, 12:19:23 AM
QuoteUndressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on February 10, 2018, 08:42:18 AM
Quote from: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Quote from: solera on February 10, 2018, 12:19:23 AM
QuoteUndressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.

The naked ruddy-brown mekillot has arrived from the east.

You feel fear.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on February 10, 2018, 09:59:05 AM
Skinned items also seem to sink into the ground in cities - is this intentional?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 12:36:53 PM
Quote from: Nao on February 10, 2018, 09:59:05 AM
Skinned items also seem to sink into the ground in cities - is this intentional?

Yes, we're working on messages that relate to the room's type, so that city messages will differ from desert messages, for example.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on February 10, 2018, 12:57:41 PM
"is lost into the sand" might feel a bit more seamless than "sinks into the sand", IMHO. Or something else that suggests the sand is covering it rather than a mental image of it sinking into a pit of quicksand a'la 80's movies.

Maybe "is lost to scavengers" or "is lost among the debris" in city environments?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: solera on February 10, 2018, 01:09:30 PM
Quote from: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Quote from: solera on February 10, 2018, 12:19:23 AM
QuoteUndressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.

This will be a problem then, for some NPC's  such as the lovely Kadians, unless things have changed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on February 10, 2018, 01:26:42 PM
Quote from: solera on February 10, 2018, 01:09:30 PM
Quote from: nessalin on February 10, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Quote from: solera on February 10, 2018, 12:19:23 AM
QuoteUndressed PC races


Does that mean NPC shop assistants are still safe from casual glances?

This means races playable by PCs.  Human, Half-elf, Elf, Desert Elf, Dwarf, Mul, Half-Giant.

Other races don't get flagged as naked when not wearing enough clothing.

This will be a problem then, for some NPC's  such as the lovely Kadians, unless things have changed?

What theoretically should happen - npcs that previously loaded without clothes, should be re-created so that they DO load with clothes unless their nakedness is intentional.

That way, if a "should be" clothed NPC is naked, players will actually notice it. This can contribute to RP plots - why is this NPC missing his kilt? Who stole it? Or was it given away, to whom, and in exchange for what?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: In Dreams on February 13, 2018, 12:09:25 AM
I've noticed in certain circumstances, you seem to get flagged 'naked' even with something around your 'trunk' or 'waist' which'd actually cover you.

I know it's probably a hard thing to navigate in a fullproof way, but I can foresee people getting RP'd at like they're naked when they're not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on February 13, 2018, 10:57:48 AM
Trunk is not a location that defines nudity. Men and women can both show off their pectorals without fear of being naked. (Though your mileage may vary when you're put up against other players).

Waist is also not a location that defines or protects against nudity as a good majority of waist items are belts, sashes, quivers, ect. If you have a loincloth, wear it on your pelvis. That's what the new wear locations were made for!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on February 14, 2018, 05:32:01 AM
Yeah, there's one obvious npc which I bugged because their thong is one of those older items which are still worn about the waist.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on February 16, 2018, 06:51:18 PM
Hold on, I just noticed the Dispel reach added. If it's what I think it is, that's such a QoL addition we needed!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on February 17, 2018, 11:42:17 PM
Would it be possible to change the naked code a little bit?

So, like with current rules change it to something like, mostly naked or almost naked then save just naked for when they actually have nothing at all on? I think that would nicely fix the issue with all these NPCs showing up naked when they are not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fernandezj on March 22, 2018, 11:48:28 PM
With the changes to brew, are older cures now useless?

Or will it only really take effect in making new things?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Envy on March 23, 2018, 12:06:10 AM
Quote from: Fernandezj on March 22, 2018, 11:48:28 PM
With the changes to brew, are older cures now useless?

Or will it only really take effect in making new things?

Old cures are useless. Have to learn the new cures now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on March 23, 2018, 12:31:39 AM
If already made old cures are useless, and not just the recipes, methinks that would be a very bad call.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on March 23, 2018, 12:52:33 AM
Some of them appear to still be functional. Maybe not all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on March 23, 2018, 01:20:16 AM
I mean, you had a years notice to swap over...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WanderingOoze on March 23, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
Quote from: X-D on February 17, 2018, 11:42:17 PM
Would it be possible to change the naked code a little bit?

So, like with current rules change it to something like, mostly naked or almost naked then save just naked for when they actually have nothing at all on? I think that would nicely fix the issue with all these NPCs showing up naked when they are not.

Completely irrelevant. But I laughed at the amount of times 'Naked' Was used in this post.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 07:54:16 AM
Do they still sell the old cures in the shops?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tortall on March 23, 2018, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on March 23, 2018, 01:20:16 AM
I mean, you had a years notice to swap over...

Those of us that came back more recently and knew the old system haven't had much time to try and figure out the new system and what makes cures for what issues. I've been trying to learn, but I'm just not sure how to figure anything out without trying to poison my PC and then try random combinations since finding PCs with the knowledge IG has proven to be more difficult than I thought.

Took me some 2-3 YEARS of playing to get information IG on the old system.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on March 23, 2018, 11:11:14 AM
Oh my god. We dont know how to make cures anymore! This must be how it feels to be a newbie. Scary scary world :)


I got shocked as well. I didnt realize old cures were obsolete now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on March 23, 2018, 01:00:58 PM
I didn't have the least bit of interest in the new code. I guess I'll have to start being interested now!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on March 23, 2018, 01:26:52 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on March 23, 2018, 01:00:58 PM
I didn't have the least bit of interest in the new code. I guess I'll have to start being interested now!

The new code is fun. I really enjoy it. It's also more flexible and makes a lot more IG sense than the old one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

Once every one ypdates their spreadsheets and swap them around on discord we should see a more reliable, easier to use system reemerge.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on March 23, 2018, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

That's honestly the way it should always have been. Get you a reliable medic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:42:28 PM
Yeah it's just an adjustment is all. I can always play dwarves in the meantime if I really don't want to bother. Just aren't enough medic PCs around....yet.

I'm more excited for the ability to use bloodied as a proper keyword.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on March 23, 2018, 10:34:31 PM
Spread a wave of rumors that cures are based on vile magick and to not be trusted, then just ignore the new code.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on March 24, 2018, 08:22:21 AM
Please don't spread information around OOCly. If you don't want to enjoy the game as it's presented, there are other options for you to experience fun and excitement in today's modern world than ruining the secret for other players of our game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fernandezj on March 24, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
1. I haven't been playing a year so I don't know what years notice you are talking about.

2. if an item linked to a heavy coded feature of the game like living becomes obsolete its just common decency to say they don't work anymore, and most codebases let you delete useless items.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fernandezj on March 24, 2018, 01:10:39 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

Once every one ypdates their spreadsheets and swap them around on discord we should see a more reliable, easier to use system reemerge.

Is this a joke or do people actual ruin the game this way?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on March 24, 2018, 01:45:06 PM
Quote from: Fernandezj on March 24, 2018, 01:10:39 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 23, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
My take is it's funner for people creating the cures, but less reliable for people consuming the cures. Have to have the skill to actually tell what a given cure does. So the rest of us are at the mercy of the Crafters.

Once every one ypdates their spreadsheets and swap them around on discord we should see a more reliable, easier to use system reemerge.

Is this a joke or do people actual ruin the game this way?

There are some people who do this, yes. The publicizing of this information is harmful to the game IMO but the fact that people know the information, in general, is not, also IMO. The fact that some (mostly former) players don't understand the nuances that differentiate "knowing" and "publically making the info available" is the most harmful, IMO.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Renenutet on March 24, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Look at that. A signature at last.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on March 25, 2018, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Renenutet on March 24, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Look at that. A signature at last.

I feel a sense of Accomplishment. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on March 25, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on March 25, 2018, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: Renenutet on March 24, 2018, 02:08:00 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on March 23, 2018, 01:56:36 PM
There are people already knowledgeable in game.  Find them and kill them so no one has cures and then poison everyone. -Kefka 2018
Look at that. A signature at last.

I feel a sense of Accomplishment.

I think you just won the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 09, 2018, 06:44:44 PM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1010094.html#msg1010094

QuoteThe pour command can now be used to pour liquids into the mouths of unconscious, paralyzed, and subdued characters.  This feature is a result of seeing players attempt it in the game and not having it work the way vials do.

Can we drown people?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 07:18:23 PM
Pour liquids concerns:

Mistakenly forcing someone to drink cleaning liquid. People have consumed it themselves, in error - if there's a LOT going on they might not remember that they have a keg of the stuff in their inventory. This particular thing should not be codedly possible, I feel. Especially since if the person is in a position where someone COULD force them to drink it, they'd already probably be easy to kill without forcing them to drink it.

Mistakenly pouring booze into someone who is unconscious/subdued. Maybe a "are you sure" echo to the person doing the pouring requiring a "y/n" response or something. I can see a lot of unintentional death-by-code happening here.

Intentional drunk/poison while someone is subdued or paralyzed but still conscious (and therefore able to watch without being able to do anything about it)...should require consent.

The concept is awesome though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 09, 2018, 07:25:46 PM
What is your reasoning behind requesting consent, as it isn't readily apparent to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 09, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 09, 2018, 07:25:46 PM
What is your reasoning behind requesting consent, as it isn't readily apparent to me.

Echoed. I see this as just a secondary way to execute or damage a helpless opponent. You don't have to request consent to execute someone who is subdued with your sword. Terradin should be considered the same, and frankly way cooler for the victim.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on April 09, 2018, 07:55:53 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 09, 2018, 07:25:46 PM
What is your reasoning behind requesting consent, as it isn't readily apparent to me.
https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 09, 2018, 08:05:18 PM
I think she means consent on the side of the person doing the pouring, not consent on the side of the victim. I don't really think it's necessary but it's not what some seem to think she means.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on April 09, 2018, 08:30:14 PM
Is there a delay after the pour command for this, and does it crim flag if you pour something hazardous?

What's stopping someone from shitmugging someone sleeping in the side room of the Gaj? Any other aggressive action taken will be stopped / have you arrested by the soldiers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 09, 2018, 08:31:18 PM
The question arises, why are you accidentally carrying cleaning fluid around while kidnapping people?

If anything, it sounds like a decent way to kill a guy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 08:36:49 PM
If a person is conscious and is being forced to drink a liquid that will cause pain/agony/injury against his/her will and without the coded ability to respond, or attempt to prevent it, for the character to even say "oh no!" - that's torture.  Coded torture. I feel the same way about the cuddler and the nursery by the way. The consequence for rejecting torture could be death.

If they're not conscious - then the player won't be seeing any of the various echoes - and their PC will probably die within a few seconds anyway. But people who are subdued and/or paralyzed - their players can see every echo and are incapable of reacting to them. Since the echoes are graphic, and since the players are incapable of reacting to them and are forced to watch them - I feel they should be allowed to decide whether or not they'd rather just accept a death penalty for their characters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 09, 2018, 08:41:02 PM
I will confess the combo of
subdue person
pour heramide person

is a tiny little bit WAY TOO POWERFUL. 

A lot more powerful then let's say subduing a person and then trying to knock them out. On account that with heramide pouring, the victim rolls 'one' skill check. On the other scenario, the victim rolls a whole bunch of different checks that are related to a whole bunch of different skills.

So yes. The only time someone should be able to pour something into another's throat without them being able to resist it is paralyze/unconscious.  If you do it to a sleeping person, the sleeping person should have an equivalent of a <sip> amount and then immediately wake up. If you  do it to a subdued person, it should simply not ever work, or have an echo and then a good 60 second delay before execution.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 09, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 08:36:49 PM
If a person is conscious and is being forced to drink a liquid that will cause pain/agony/injury against his/her will and without the coded ability to respond, or attempt to prevent it, for the character to even say "oh no!" - that's torture.  Coded torture. I feel the same way about the cuddler and the nursery by the way. The consequence for rejecting torture could be death.

If they're not conscious - then the player won't be seeing any of the various echoes - and their PC will probably die within a few seconds anyway. But people who are subdued and/or paralyzed - their players can see every echo and are incapable of reacting to them. Since the echoes are graphic, and since the players are incapable of reacting to them and are forced to watch them - I feel they should be allowed to decide whether or not they'd rather just accept a death penalty for their characters.

I feel like the consent help file is pretty clear.

"If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop."

"In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision."


"If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent...."

"Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 09, 2018, 08:51:57 PM
I think suggesting the coded terradin echoes are equivalent to fully roleplayed torture is a stretch.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 08:53:56 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 09, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on April 09, 2018, 08:36:49 PM
If a person is conscious and is being forced to drink a liquid that will cause pain/agony/injury against his/her will and without the coded ability to respond, or attempt to prevent it, for the character to even say "oh no!" - that's torture.  Coded torture. I feel the same way about the cuddler and the nursery by the way. The consequence for rejecting torture could be death.

If they're not conscious - then the player won't be seeing any of the various echoes - and their PC will probably die within a few seconds anyway. But people who are subdued and/or paralyzed - their players can see every echo and are incapable of reacting to them. Since the echoes are graphic, and since the players are incapable of reacting to them and are forced to watch them - I feel they should be allowed to decide whether or not they'd rather just accept a death penalty for their characters.

I feel like the consent help file is pretty clear.

"If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop."

"In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision."


"If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent...."

"Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities."

Right - that was written before it became possible to force poison down a character's throat without consent of the player, when the coded echoes of that poison are indicative of torture. This is coded, not acted out.  I feel the consent rule should be updated to include this one aspect of it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 09, 2018, 09:32:21 PM
Well you can shoot someone with that same poison without their consent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 09, 2018, 10:01:08 PM
ooc Consent to smash your characters face in with my HG's club right dood?

I feel like you should be able to grab someone, and pour a caustic liquid in their face without having to go to OOC, but then I am also if a mind that you shouldnt need to ask consent for pretty much anything at all in the game. This is a HARSH desert world where we have slavery and an entire sub-species of sentient beings that are often the product of rape.

Why can I not poison a guy without his/her permission if I could otherwise just murder them instead?

If it makes you uncomfortable, sure, ask to tone it down.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 10, 2018, 12:02:45 AM
I have a few opinions.

1. I think there should be an advantage to using brewed poisons rather than, say, a tainted waterskin or cleaning fluid. (It's kind of silly that cleaning fluid kills you, anyway. It should just make you throw up a few times and have a really bad few days.) Whether that advantage is being easier to administer or being stronger in effect, I can deal with it either way, but there should be some reward for the skill and knowledge it takes to distill a poison.

2. I also think there should be a delay when pouring something down someone's gullet. There should be an echo that shows that someone is attempting to force you to drink something, so you have time to type flee if you are conscious. There should also be a chance of failure (for conscious victims), aka the would-be drinker spits out all the liquid. Nosave skills or something similar could bypass the check if you're trying to give water to a dehydrated person.

3. If you are sleeping normally, not unconscious, attempting this should wake you up unless you are also subdued, and you should spit out whatever is attempted to be poured down your throat unless you have nosave skills (or whatever) on.

4. If you are unconscious (not normally sleeping), then you are SOL anyway. Take it like the little bitch you are.

EDIT:

I didn't say quite what I meant to say on item #3. If you're sleeping normally, someone trying to make you drink something should wake you up whether or not you're subdued, but it should be a definite fail unless they subdue you, in which case it should be a normal check.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on April 10, 2018, 02:20:30 AM
I pour honey into your mouth, real sweet, you don't react, other than lap it up. I pour acid in your mouth, not so nice. You get a great save?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 10, 2018, 02:52:33 AM
Dear God can we leave the consent rule discussion for things that actually matter. This community spends too much time trying to police other players.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 10, 2018, 03:08:18 AM
I wouldn't be inclined to [willingly] let some stranger unexpectedly pour honey in my mouth while holding me down, especially since I don't know if it's poison or not. I wouldn't like to wake up to that, either!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on April 10, 2018, 03:14:22 AM
I think the idea was to allow medics to administer cures to those not able to fix themselves, but I can see the concern of abuse. Thus my snarky idea.
I'm awake and subdued, trying to pour some shit in my mouth..phenomenal save. Unconscious, not so much.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: chrisdcoulombe on April 10, 2018, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on April 10, 2018, 10:45:42 AM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on April 10, 2018, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

I'm just a fly on the wall for this discussion... but what don't you understand about what he wrote?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 10, 2018, 11:46:51 AM
Quote from: CodeMaster on April 10, 2018, 10:45:42 AM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on April 10, 2018, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

Unless Dar knows something we don't, the process of poisoning a waterskin and poisoning a blade are pretty darn similar. They consume the exact same item to perform.
I'm just a fly on the wall for this discussion... but what don't you understand about what he wrote?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nauta on April 10, 2018, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

This is a very good point, two points really: (1) the ability to pour a poison, be it a vial or a shitmug, into a victim's throat makes it easy to KO them; (2) the ability to pour a poison that is not a vial (thus not created by the poison or brew skills) makes it so that such vials are far too easy to obtain.  I'm going to pitch an argument against (1), namely, to the conclusion that being able to easily pour poisoned liquid into a victim (subdued, paralyzed, or asleep) is a good thing, not a bad thing.  So I agree with Dar that it would make it very easy to do so; I disagree that this is a bad thing.  However, I totally agree about (2) -- if anyone can make up a shitmug and not just those skilled at poisons, then this will proliferate poisons, and make it so much more deadly.  (Solution: remove shitmugs from the game.  Only those with a poison skill can poison vials / liquid containers.)

1. But first, let's bear in mind that we could do this already from at least two years ago or whenever it was that they implemented the ability to pour vials into other people's mouths.  Here's the change:
Quote
"-The pour command can now be used to pour liquids into the mouths of unconscious, paralyzed, and subdued
  characters.  This feature is a result of seeing players attempt it in the game and not having it work the way vials do."
And I can't find it now, but I do remember the ability to use a vial on a victim being implemented with the general rollout of the new tablet code.

What this change allows, however, is for more poisons than just poison vials to be applied to a victim, thus broadening the scope.

2. Ok, so would the ability to pour a poison vial or a shitmug into a victim's throat, where the victim is subdued, paralyzed, or asleep, allow one to more easily kill them?  Yes!  I agree.  Is this a bad thing?  My thesis is: no.  So let's break it down:

Asleep/Paralyzed - If you are asleep/paralyzed, you are at the mercy of those who are not asleep.  They could stab you with a poison dagger and kill you.  They could slit your throat.  They could stuff a vial of killmenow poison into your mouth and kill you now.

Subdued - Here, admittedly, one might see resistance -- and I think this is what Dar is driving at.  HG Biff walks up to you, subdues you, and then, hands free of a weapon to kill you with, somehow manages to pour a poison vial or shitmug down your throat, which he had in his inventory.  I think this might not make a lot of sense, and have a suggestion at the end how to prevent this.  But if HG Biff subdues you and his buddy Ranger Rover stabs you with a poison blade in the face, or pours a poison vial in your mouth, you should be dead.  It's a one-two combo, admittedly, but it was already a one-two combo with a blade.

Suggestion: in order to pour a vial/container of liquid into someone else, you must hold it.  Thus, you could not subdue them AND pour the thing down the throat at the same time, just as you can't subdue them and stab them at the same time, since subdue makes you drop your weapons. You'll need a partner.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on April 10, 2018, 03:08:00 PM
For subdued, if I'm awake, you're going to have to try really hard to get me to drink something I don't want. Even if you hold me down, I can spit it out or breath through my nose to prevent swallowing.

Those options don't really apply for unconscious or paralyzed, and if I'm asleep, I just want it to wake them up immediately after they pour. You still get the effects of whatever they pour, but at least you can immediately go for a cure, or attack them back.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 10, 2018, 03:27:25 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on April 10, 2018, 03:08:00 PM
For subdued, if I'm awake, you're going to have to try really hard to get me to drink something I don't want. Even if you hold me down, I can spit it out or breath through my nose to prevent swallowing.

Those options don't really apply for unconscious or paralyzed, and if I'm asleep, I just want it to wake them up immediately after they pour. You still get the effects of whatever they pour, but at least you can immediately go for a cure, or attack them back.

I don't remember if a subdued person is codedly able to talk/say/tell or emote. If they are, then my concern about the consent on that is not a concern. The concern I had (and still have) is that the "victim" is codedly incapable of protesting, asking for death, thanking someone, or even emoting about squirming - if they're paralyzed while you're pouring something down their throat.

I can even think of an instance in which someone is critically injured and immobile - and their player is just really idling while waiting for the thirst code to finally kill them off (maybe they don't know about quit-die or maybe they're communicating with staff via wish about the situation before their character dies). Saving their life might be unwanted to the *player*.

There are personal reasons why I would prefer to consent to them killing my character over making me sit there unable to respond while their character poisons mine. It's the "unable to respond" part I object to, when you are doing something to my character. It isn't even that you're doing it against my will - it's that you don't have any way of knowing what my will is, if you don't ask for consent because my character is incapable, codedly, of responding or reacting in any way at all. I might as well just go linkdead, which you'd probably consider lame. But that's how you'd be treating my character if you were to do that to them under that very narrow and specific circumstance.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: surveyvon on April 10, 2018, 03:41:20 PM
Relevant release notes.

Quote
September 12th, 2016

(Nessalin)
-When an arrow becomes lit, by whatever means, any poison on it is removed.
-Vials can now be used to administer cures and poisons to victims using either the use or pour commands.  This will preclude wishes asking to shove a tablet into the mouth of someone who is sleeping/paralyzed/subdued.
  -The victim is unconscious (small chance they will choke and spit it up)
  -The victim is paralyzed (small chance they will choke and spit it up)
  -The victim is subdued (chance to resist)
-Usage:


> use vial warrior
> pour vial warrior
> pour vial in warrior
> pour vial on warrior
> pour vial into warrior
> pour vial onto warrior

« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 10:59:04 AM by nessalin »
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on April 10, 2018, 03:48:38 PM
I would hate to find someone bleeding out and get in trouble for bandaging them, or giving them a drink of water., because I didn't ask for consent beforehand. A lot of things happen to our characters against the will of the players involved. While I do see the point of breathing through one's nose, said nose could be pinched, spitting out, mouth could be covered.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on April 10, 2018, 03:56:08 PM
Looks like it already works kind of like I was suggesting. I wonder if being paralyzed but conscious negates your resist roll, though? It should.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 10, 2018, 05:15:32 PM
Quote

I don't remember if a subdued person is codedly able to talk/say/tell or emote. If they are, then my concern about the consent on that is not a concern. The concern I had (and still have) is that the "victim" is codedly incapable of protesting, asking for death, thanking someone, or even emoting about squirming - if they're paralyzed while you're pouring something down their throat.

You can emote and say while subdued, yes. If you are paralyzed you cant though.

Quote from: Grapes on April 10, 2018, 03:48:38 PM
I would hate to find someone bleeding out and get in trouble for bandaging them, or giving them a drink of water., because I didn't ask for consent beforehand. A lot of things happen to our characters against the will of the players involved. While I do see the point of breathing through one's nose, said nose could be pinched, spitting out, mouth could be covered.

They could always just store after that, and say their character died, I really dont see an issue with it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on April 10, 2018, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

Heramide poison that sticks on a blade is rare, difficult, and dangerous to provide. It's price ranges from favor to 5000+ depending on how desperate a PC is for it.
Heramide poison that can be brewed into a vial is possible to be created by a 0 day ranger.

Being subdued by one and attacked by another puts you into a severe disadvantage, but most definitely does not mean certain death. You can survive it, if you're lucky, or skilled enough.
Being subdued by one and having a vial poured into you knocks you out completely, which 'does' mean certain death. Regardless of your character's .... anything really.
A 0 hour warrior elf (I'm not talking about HGs. HGs at least require karma) has a strong 'chance' to subdue a 100 day character, provided he's lacking a certain guild/subguild.
2 0 hour characters can potentially incapacitate and kill a 100 day character due to the vial pouring not having a resistance mechanic, merely by that 100 day character failing 'one' single challenge roll.

Is this really something you find plausible and acceptable?  I'm not talking about realistic, since arguments 'for' and 'against' it have already been mentioned and discussed. I am merely talking about plausibility of it as a coded mechanic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: surveyvon on April 10, 2018, 05:24:47 PM
QuoteHeramide poison that can be brewed into a vial is possible to be created by a 0 day ranger.

I don't think this is true anymore, following the removal of the brew command in favor of the crafting system.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on April 10, 2018, 05:29:05 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:35:13 PM
It's still nowhere close to as dangerous as procuring a non-brewed heramide.

Heramide is very powerful. Therefore it's understandable to make the process of procuring it to be very dangerous.

Making a brewed heramide very difficult doesnt make so much sense, because then it's non-lethal application becomes too rare and you lose functionality.

It's easier, more balanced, less abuse prone, and would actually make sense to allow a resistance check on a conscious person. Deactivated by some type on nosave.
If one thinks they have someone in their power so much that they wouldnt be able to resist drinking the liquid. Then that someone should have enough power over their victim to knock them out and pour it into their gullet then. Wake them up afterwards if necessary. If it is a benevolent action, it's just a simple matter of telling the person to "Sit still and drink this" and having the person nosave the defence.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on April 10, 2018, 05:41:39 PM
Re Consent:

Consent is not required to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords, murder someone, or various other forms of coded combat. Consent is required for sexual scenes, bodily mutilation, and graphic torture. The poison code does not fall into any of those categories on its own, nor does using the code in place to poison someone. Of course, if there is abuse of the system we will be watching and listening and will strike faster than a spider-monkey.

Help Consent - http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent

Quote
There are few restrictions on roleplay in Armageddon. If you choose to roleplay adult situations, that is fine. However, before instigating such an act with another player, you need to OOC to make sure that the role play is consented to, in each scene it happens. You must do this as you can't be sure that you are alone in every situation, and as such consent must be addressed every time. If someone is instigating roleplay that makes you uncomfortable, please OOC that they should stop. If they continue despite being told to stop, please wish up. This rule is not meant to be abused in order to allow characters to escape the consequences. Perhaps a good analogy is the movie ratings system: some people may wish to see the details acted out in a way which would deserve an R rating while another, younger player might prefer that the details be communicated in an OOC fashion and left offstage.

Rape/Sexual Torture plotlines are not to be played out in the game. See 'help rape' for further elaboration on this subject and a definition of what is considered rape in Armageddon.

In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure. It is then the instigator's responsibility to attempt to kill the victim, or take some other appropriate course of action. The victim should not request other punishments, bargain, or otherwise discuss the situation out of character beyond this provision.

If you act out a graphic sequence without first obtaining the other player's consent, and the player then complains within a reasonable amount of time (so that the runlogs can be checked and the complaint verified), you will be banned. If you enact a rape plotline or an act of rape, you will be banned. In either case, you will be banned for thirty (30) days for the first offense, permanently for the second offense. If the Producers deem an act that is a first offense especially egregious, you will be permanently banned. Please use common sense and have respect for other people's sensibilities.

Notes:
You must be 18 years of age or older to ask for or give consent for sexual roleplay.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: surveyvon on April 10, 2018, 05:52:21 PM
Quote from: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:35:13 PM
It's still nowhere close to as dangerous as procuring a non-brewed heramide.

Heramide is very powerful. Therefore it's understandable to make the process of procuring it to be very dangerous.

Making a brewed heramide very difficult doesnt make so much sense, because then it's non-lethal application becomes too rare and you lose functionality.

It's easier, more balanced, less abuse prone, and would actually make sense to allow a resistance check on a conscious person. Deactivated by some type on nosave.
If one thinks they have someone in their power so much that they wouldnt be able to resist drinking the liquid. Then that someone should have enough power over their victim to knock them out and pour it into their gullet then. Wake them up afterwards if necessary. If it is a benevolent action, it's just a simple matter of telling the person to "Sit still and drink this" and having the person nosave the defence.

There is a resist check.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:59:08 PM
... oh. There is? I'm sorry. I assumed that pouring liquid inside subdued people did not have any checks. Then nevermiiiind.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on April 11, 2018, 02:34:47 AM
Quote from: Akariel on April 10, 2018, 05:41:39 PM
Re Consent:

Consent is not required to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords, murder someone, or various other forms of coded combat. Consent is required for sexual scenes, bodily mutilation, and graphic torture. The poison code does not fall into any of those categories on its own, nor does using the code in place to poison someone. Of course, if there is abuse of the system we will be watching and listening and will strike faster than a spider-monkey.


+1 Thank you.

Quote from: Dar on April 10, 2018, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on April 10, 2018, 07:09:38 AM
Quote from: Dar on April 09, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
I personally do not like the idea of forcing poison down someone's throat mainly because it makes killing too easy. That's my opinion. Not about consent of graphic violence at all. But just a matter of how easy it is for 2 people to subdue and pour liquid in, to instantly KO someone out.  Granted it's possible to do it by simply stabbing a person with a poisoned dagger. But liquid brewed poison and poison that sticks to blades are two entirely different things in terms of difficulty to procure.

What?

Heramide poison that sticks on a blade is rare, difficult, and dangerous to provide. It's price ranges from favor to 5000+ depending on how desperate a PC is for it.
Heramide poison that can be brewed into a vial is possible to be created by a 0 day ranger.

Being subdued by one and attacked by another puts you into a severe disadvantage, but most definitely does not mean certain death. You can survive it, if you're lucky, or skilled enough.
Being subdued by one and having a vial poured into you knocks you out completely, which 'does' mean certain death. Regardless of your character's .... anything really.
A 0 hour warrior elf (I'm not talking about HGs. HGs at least require karma) has a strong 'chance' to subdue a 100 day character, provided he's lacking a certain guild/subguild.
2 0 hour characters can potentially incapacitate and kill a 100 day character due to the vial pouring not having a resistance mechanic, merely by that 100 day character failing 'one' single challenge roll.

Is this really something you find plausible and acceptable?  I'm not talking about realistic, since arguments 'for' and 'against' it have already been mentioned and discussed. I am merely talking about plausibility of it as a coded mechanic.

I'm not sure I follow the concern here regarding 0 hour characters randomly subduing people and forcing heramide down people's throats. If such a thing occurs, it's fairly easy for Staff to investigate whether this was a 'Troll' killing of abusive newbies and for the victim of this abuse to get rezz'ed.

However, I would suggest adding a nosave 'remedy' option that people can turn off and on to indicate gladly accepting the remedy versus fighting against it, in the same way they do subdue, combat and crime. That way perhaps an addition skill check can be done taking 'def' into account, thereby avoiding Dar's fear that his 100 day warrior could so easily be taken out by some 0 day trolls.

Ultimately though I think the concern of abuse here is wildly anxious and unwarranted, because as Akariel mentioned abuse of all kinds will be monitored by the spider-monkeys in the sky.

I think this is a cool addition with lots of RP potential, and with perhaps a few tweaks to skill checks can be extremely realistic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 11, 2018, 06:17:50 AM
There are a few food items that do it as well when you eat them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 11, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
QuoteUltimately though I think the concern of abuse here is wildly anxious and unwarranted, because as Akariel mentioned abuse of all kinds will be monitored by the spider-monkeys in the sky.

Ultimately, code equates to the laws of physics of the game.  What is possible and impossible.  If we want something to behave in a certain way, code it that way.  Abuse is not, 'Oh, that was twinky.'  It's the manipulation of code to gain results that the code is not intended for.

Hence, when we say 'They will be watching for abuse', my general concern is that abuse is being used very loosely and negatively.  Make the code account for the behavior you want.  Not to facilitate another front of 'You fuckin' twink. Negative review.'

That being said...it seems that this entire concern would be solved via further work with poison crafting.  Deadly poisons through brew need to be similarly risky, so that if this happens to you from two 0 day warriors, they just pulled off something special.  I do like the idea of it having a delay that notifies you, so that if you -weren't- fighting off the subdue before...you are now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 11, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
The pour vial code has been in place for 2 years, and it hasn't generated this kind of discussion the entire time. SUCCESSFULLY subduing someone, and having your buddy pour a vial down their throat, isn't easy. Subdue, in itself, is a tough skill, and you can always escape. Even beyond the escape, you can resist and cough up the contents of the vial and make them waste it.

Personally, I'm all for a lack of 300 kzul berries in someone's skull-chest, and more opportunity for "lesser people" to try and poison others. Since the new brew code came in, I've wanted to do a subdue/kidnap scenario, but it just isn't a fun plotline after about 20 minutes.

I'm with Armaddict here, though, in that if there is potential for abuse, code it differently. If its working as intended, and some people learn the code, its limitations, and apply that knowledge? Sucks, man, but that's no different from the rest of the game. If you have 2 0-day warriors subduing and forcing poison onto people, nothing was stopping them from subduing and attacking you. But now you have more chances to flee, a chance to avoid the damage entirely, and even IF poisoned, there are a number of branching opportunities there, as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on April 11, 2018, 03:42:56 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on April 11, 2018, 12:17:11 PM
Hence, when we say 'They will be watching for abuse', my general concern is that abuse is being used very loosely and negatively.  Make the code account for the behavior you want.  Not to facilitate another front of 'You fuckin' twink. Negative review.'

This is fair, I agree.

Quote from: Riev on April 11, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
The pour vial code has been in place for 2 years, and it hasn't generated this kind of discussion the entire time. SUCCESSFULLY subduing someone, and having your buddy pour a vial down their throat, isn't easy. Subdue, in itself, is a tough skill, and you can always escape. Even beyond the escape, you can resist and cough up the contents of the vial and make them waste it.

Personally, I'm all for a lack of 300 kzul berries in someone's skull-chest, and more opportunity for "lesser people" to try and poison others. Since the new brew code came in, I've wanted to do a subdue/kidnap scenario, but it just isn't a fun plotline after about 20 minutes.

I'm with Armaddict here, though, in that if there is potential for abuse, code it differently. If its working as intended, and some people learn the code, its limitations, and apply that knowledge? Sucks, man, but that's no different from the rest of the game. If you have 2 0-day warriors subduing and forcing poison onto people, nothing was stopping them from subduing and attacking you. But now you have more chances to flee, a chance to avoid the damage entirely, and even IF poisoned, there are a number of branching opportunities there, as well.

I agree with this completely, which is why I think a tweak of what actually constitutes a skill-resist check for this and the ability to nosave would solve the concerns.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on April 11, 2018, 04:35:49 PM
Let me rephrase:
There are checks in place to stop people from doing things that we have already considered outside the realm of IC possibility. If someone finds a way around this through playing the code, it would be considered abuse.

This includes things like, for a hypothetical example, you know that you are supposed to have a lag after bashing someone. You find out one day that if you bash someone, but put a period at the end of the command, it doesn't have any lag. You rationalize that since it's possible, obviously it was intended and you're in the right. You proceed to use this to gain an advantage in the game without reporting it to staff. (Please note, this is completely made up and not a real situation.)

That would be an abuse of the code. Using the code effectively and within the confines of how it's laid out is not abuse of the code. Twinking the code is not an abuse of the code (but may factor into Rule #1 (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules)).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 16, 2018, 09:36:07 AM
QuoteHack
(Melee Combat)
This skill causes your character to attempt to strike an opponent's shield or armor, damaging or even destroying it, rather than attacking the opponent themselves.

Shields, when present, are always struck before armor.

And in the tunnels of the gith, there was a great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on April 16, 2018, 11:13:32 AM
Did I just read the release notes wrong, or is this a wet dream come true?

ETA:

Nope, attacking someone's shield and-or armor instead of their horror-plated crotch-piece is now a thing. Wow.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 16, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
Attacking shield I understand...attacking armor...Makes no sense at all. Like really, none. Like you suddenly have a magick attack that damages only or mostly the armor while transferring nothing or next to nothing to what is below it, in DIRECT contact. I mean really, just make armor degrade faster when hit in normal attacks (against that too, but at least it makes sense).

As to attacking shield, Fine...but directly attacking the shield should DRASTICALLY raise the odds of weapon destruction as well. I mean, it is not like we are talking about two drastically different materials here, like steel verses leather...most the time they are the same materials, often the shield is actually harder. The idea of attacking that bahamet shell shield with that wooden/bone sword and doing more damage to the shield then the shield does to the sword is silly. Also, the style of weapon should matter as well, Piercing/stabbing and slashing should do the lowest armor and shield damage with a VERY GREAT risk of weapon loss, while Chopping and blunt should do the most (in that order) With the lowest chance to be destroyed. Is that the case now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 16, 2018, 08:25:01 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 16, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
Attacking shield I understand...attacking armor...Makes no sense at all. Like really, none. Like you suddenly have a magick attack that damages only or mostly the armor while transferring nothing or next to nothing to what is below it, in DIRECT contact. I mean really, just make armor degrade faster when hit in normal attacks (against that too, but at least it makes sense).

As to attacking shield, Fine...but directly attacking the shield should DRASTICALLY raise the odds of weapon destruction as well. I mean, it is not like we are talking about two drastically different materials here, like steel verses leather...most the time they are the same materials, often the shield is actually harder. The idea of attacking that bahamet shell shield with that wooden/bone sword and doing more damage to the shield then the shield does to the sword is silly. Also, the style of weapon should matter as well, Piercing/stabbing and slashing should do the lowest armor and shield damage with a VERY GREAT risk of weapon loss, while Chopping and blunt should do the most (in that order) With the lowest chance to be destroyed. Is that the case now?

The only way to hack is with chopping.

And sometimes you have to make sacrifices of realism in the name of playability.

We have disarm for weapons. There has to be some counter to shields, too, which cannot be disarmed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on April 16, 2018, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on April 16, 2018, 08:25:01 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 16, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
Attacking shield I understand...attacking armor...Makes no sense at all. Like really, none. Like you suddenly have a magick attack that damages only or mostly the armor while transferring nothing or next to nothing to what is below it, in DIRECT contact. I mean really, just make armor degrade faster when hit in normal attacks (against that too, but at least it makes sense).

As to attacking shield, Fine...but directly attacking the shield should DRASTICALLY raise the odds of weapon destruction as well. I mean, it is not like we are talking about two drastically different materials here, like steel verses leather...most the time they are the same materials, often the shield is actually harder. The idea of attacking that bahamet shell shield with that wooden/bone sword and doing more damage to the shield then the shield does to the sword is silly. Also, the style of weapon should matter as well, Piercing/stabbing and slashing should do the lowest armor and shield damage with a VERY GREAT risk of weapon loss, while Chopping and blunt should do the most (in that order) With the lowest chance to be destroyed. Is that the case now?

The only way to hack is with chopping.

And sometimes you have to make sacrifices of realism in the name of playability.

We have disarm for weapons. There has to be some counter to shields, too, which cannot be disarmed.

I'm not really following your logic there. The trade-off with shields is that you are better defended, but you attack (approximately) half as often, right? How does it follow from the fact that we can disarm weapons to needed to damage shields?

I actually think it's a cool idea; I'm just trying to understand your train of thought.


Tangentially related: How do people roleplay the implementation of skills/commands like that? Does every fighter around the Known suddenly have this idea for a new technique?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on April 16, 2018, 10:39:25 PM
I love the idea of people being able to 'hack' at a shield with axes until it detonates(with a risk of breaking their own weapons in the process too). That's super cool.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of targeting armor though.. I mean, I'd love to just target someone's head and neck with every shot during combat, but that's more or less relegated to how high my offense and weapon proficiency are right? I'm guessing that the success check takes those things into consideration along with parry/defense? In which case, also super cool.

I hope everyone is bracing themselves for the gith to use these same techniques against all our fancy shields and armor too :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 17, 2018, 06:27:48 AM
The in game help file says nothing about weapon type first off, So, if chopping only, that is good. As to a counter for shield...Huh? Why? Historically there was no realistic counter for a shield till the gun. Why does it need to be different in arm, I don't get it.

Also, Shields already go from perfect to crap way to fast in normal combat. I don't know, I think it makes little sense to have the skill/command.

Also, what are the drawbacks to the user of said command? What are the odds the axe gets stuck in the shield? (very realistic) That the user misses completely and thrown way off balance (realistic) That the user is simply easier to hit since his target is a shield and not what is behind it?

Is there a defense against it? Every other offensive melee skill has a defense.

And like others, I really do not follow the playability over realism logic, in fact I find it quite the other way around, harming both.


Wee, all the more reason to spam disarm/bash. Bleh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 12:05:02 PM
Shields were routinely battered into uselessness by several types of weapons.  I guess I had the Dane ax used by Vikings in my head, which absolutely could shred a shield.

The drawback is that it is a skill that needs to be activated by a command, and has an associated lag, rather than a passive that is always in effect enhancing the damage done to armor in locations that are hit.  I have to disagree with X-D on how often, or badly, shields get damaged.  When was the last time you saw an elf able to damage a shield routinely?

As for damaging worn armor, yes this is not as useful as destroying a shield, but it does have its uses.  Not least of which is being able to still be able to train the skill when no one will face you with their shield.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 17, 2018, 07:45:05 PM
And the Dane axe was made of.....wait for it...STEEL! Verses wooden or leather shields. Comparing apples and earthworms here. But I guess you missed that part of my post about materials. That is alright, I will RE-state it. You think this skill/command makes sense, Fine, but since weapons and shield IG are made of the same things mostly, you should give the weapon a DRASTICALLY enhanced chance of damage/destruction. If I strike wood on wood, rock on rock, steel on steel diamond on diamond, they both take damage. Every single time. ALSO...That dane axe or other weapon stood a HIGH chance of getting stuck in the shield, rendering both items useless Mutual destruction IG terms. Does the hack skill/command have that?

Shields IG already take tons of damage, specially from kick and blunt weapons, I have to disagree with you Brokkr. One or two sparring matches can send a shield from new to cracked or worse easily. And I have had them do the same in gith/Halfling/raptor/mantis/kryl combat as well.

As to an elf damaging a shield, With kick, they can, easily, which is unrealistic but we live with it. As to with weapons, they should not be able to...not really, a weak strike is a weak strike.

Also....A shield is already being aimed at the weapon...I mean look, If I am using a shield, I am putting it between me and the weapon.  How is it that you now have some magickal skill that makes it so you suddenly do enhanced damage to the shield. I do not get it.

Oh Hey, I am an elf that has to wield my bone hatchet two handed, I cannot get past your sandcloth but if I actually target your Silt horror shield I can damage it. Yes, this makes total sense. I cannot damage you or your armor in normal combat but I have this kung-fu skill that lets me target your armor and not you and damage it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 17, 2018, 08:22:18 PM
Is this a skill that should be showing up on a skill list, or is it branched ALA Ride? Or is it a passive skill that doesn't get better or worse? Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 09:06:43 PM
Aha!  But if that elf hacks your sand cloth armor to pieces, you will suffer the death of ten thousand cuts!

I get that you don't like it.  if it wasn't hack, it would be some other way to get past shields, rendering defensive behemoths vulnerable.

Hack is like threaten.  For now a bare bones skill that is possible for anyone, but as a skill is only on the new classes skill lists.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 17, 2018, 09:29:56 PM
And now you make me hate it even more. Realism, Nope, Playability Nah...We must BREAK something because Oh hey, somebody chooses to be defensive and we cannot have that, Are we putting in something to harm the dual wielder or the etwo, Nah, just the guy that chooses defense. Will it be realistic in any way, Nope....deal with it, this makes our new everybody is equally poor Marxist new classes work.

If Shield users are somehow over powered then so are dual and etwo...is there plans to equally dumb them down?

Are there plans to add negs, realistic negs to Hack other then a short delay after? I mean really.. Oh, they get a delay after. yup, that offsets the money you have to pay to get your shit repaired. Any risk to their gear? Nah...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 17, 2018, 10:17:50 PM
I like the skill on paper. Don't really agree with X-D's complaints. I don't see this as a big nerf to shield users though I'd have to see it in use to know for sure.  I don't care if it is unrealistic or not, it's a cool game feature, something Arm already has a lot of and can use a lot more of. Anything that makes combat less stagnant is great.

Depending on how strong it is there are several possible balances that can be done. I think the ability should take up an attack round, and a critical failure should be a delay in your attacks in the form of your weapon getting stuck or lodged.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 17, 2018, 10:56:39 PM
Will it damage weapons to use it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 11:22:25 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that skill is intended to interact in the dynamic of the new classes.

Where the heavy merchantile classes have shield use that is slightly better than current rangers, and all the other 12 classes are better at it than that.

I wouldn't put it in with the skillsets of the current guilds, it wouldn't add much.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 18, 2018, 12:09:12 AM
Quote from: X-D on April 17, 2018, 09:29:56 PM
If Shield users are somehow over powered then so are dual and etwo...is there plans to equally dumb them down?

Disarm?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on April 18, 2018, 12:50:53 AM
Quote from: Veselka on April 17, 2018, 10:56:39 PM
Will it damage weapons to use it?

I love the skill addition. I'd love it even more if the material type of weapon versus shield were taken into account, so that appropriate damage is dealt out to either or both.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 18, 2018, 01:43:37 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 17, 2018, 11:22:25 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that skill is intended to interact in the dynamic of the new classes.

Where the heavy merchantile classes have shield use that is slightly better than current rangers, and all the other 12 classes are better at it than that.

I wouldn't put it in with the skillsets of the current guilds, it wouldn't add much.

The only reason I asked is for the long lived Warriors in game that will suddenly be outmatched by New Kids On the Block with the ability to hack their armor. I suppose this may be as intended, to shoe people out of the old classes and into the new classes, but it feels a little 'meh, and also contributes to guild-sniffing (Particularly in combat-based clans where the people who can 'hack' will be immediately compared to people who cannot 'hack')'.  Would it be possible to grant it to the Warrior class, as well as the new classes?  If the old classes are going to be phased out anyways, eventually, it may be a nice stop gap while the Beta Classes are still in Beta.

I totally understand that more (most, all) work is being put into the new Classes  -- That makes perfect sense. But as it's still being tested, who knows when it will be done? Some of us may be rolling the old classes until such a time where that isn't possible, depending on our karma and wish to be involved with the beta.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on April 18, 2018, 02:40:28 AM
There will almost definately be at least ons or two Warrior guild PCs that will last for AGES past the switchover to the new guild system.

Plus, I think it would be good to see what the Hack skill can do in the meantime.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 18, 2018, 04:52:02 AM
"I'd like to see more weapon and armor degradation in the game."

*skill idea goes in specifically to damage armor and shields*

"Fuck this game, this is terrible."


Hope that failure has at least a chance to damage the weapon.  I'll look forward to people getting pissed they can't hit me and taking it out on my shield instead with many flowery emotes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on April 18, 2018, 03:55:26 PM
Armor, realistically, should only be able to take a few hits before being made ragged.

It would need REGULAR repair between battles. Buckles and straps go first from just marching. Romans were regularly repairing armor without battle, just from military marching drills. Also, armor is extremely taxing to wear. Halloween memories anyone? The Spartian warriors would maintain armor on a daily basis.

With that said... Armor should dramatically lower max stamina and lower stun and get damaged from just walking around. And it doesn't do any of this.

This new code against armor is GREAT. It is a wonderful tool that allows an aggressor to attack without worry about injuring the opponent. This is something one would do to demonstrate that "You cannot defend yourself, you are a child, give up."

Brilliant.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 04:21:35 PM
What was the mainstay of being a warrior? It was the ability to stay in a fight and bear the brunt of it, between parrying and shield use.

This is a step toward taking that way. Toward eliminating the "great warrior" and the ability to stand out as a fighter.

If even heavy merchants are going to have a degree of weapons skill, the gap between warrior (heavy combatant?) and the other classes between heavy merchants narrows even further.

Sorcerers and elementalists pared down and now warriors? People calling for the elimination of PC half giants. Mantis PCs long gone. The days of heroes are truly over.  :o
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on April 18, 2018, 04:46:44 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 04:21:35 PM
What was the mainstay of being a warrior? It was the ability to stay in a fight and bear the brunt of it, between parrying and shield use.

This is a step toward taking that way. Toward eliminating the "great warrior" and the ability to stand out as a fighter.

If even heavy merchants are going to have a degree of weapons skill, the gap between warrior (heavy combatant?) and the other classes between heavy merchants narrows even further.

Sorcerers and elementalists pared down and now warriors? People calling for the elimination of PC half giants. Mantis PCs long gone. The days of heroes are truly over.  :o

When is the last time you got challenged by a burglar, on a warrior? Not to mention that the new heavy combat classes end up with higher caps on weapons than warriors.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 18, 2018, 09:40:08 PM
Will NPCs have this skill as well?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on April 18, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 18, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Numbers will be more important than skill. A few lackluster warriors will take a master warrior down by hacking away his shield and armor.

And what is a "warrior" with the new class system anyhow? How many classes will have the hack skill?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 18, 2018, 10:20:14 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 18, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Because Warriors don't have the skill? Just Combat-New-Classes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 18, 2018, 10:31:38 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 10:05:50 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 18, 2018, 10:01:04 PM
Can we not act like the game is ending with every minor change that comes about.

How the hell is this ruining the mainstay of a warrior when it is a warrior skill.

Numbers will be more important than skill. A few lackluster warriors will take a master warrior down by hacking away his shield and armor.

As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on April 18, 2018, 10:59:02 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 11:11:59 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on April 18, 2018, 10:31:38 PM
As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

If a warrior has to rely on dodge for defense, how is he any different from a ranger minus wilderness skills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 18, 2018, 11:25:26 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 18, 2018, 11:11:59 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on April 18, 2018, 10:31:38 PM
As someone who has played a few high level warriors, I can say that this is preposterous. A master warrior with 50 days played can 1v3-4 a bunch of 'lackluster' warriors (4-5 days up to 10 days played) without getting touched in my empirical studies.

Secondly, like bash, disarm, and kick, I am 150% certain that hack also will have a raw offense/defense association with the roll. No active combat skill is simply skill vs skill. It's a complex calculation of skill+offense+size modifiers ect ect vs skill+defense+modifiers.

So not only will a master level warrior be dodging 4 farmboys even IF they manage to wreck his armor (and therefore him being naked will have little to no consequence), they almost certainly won't be able to hack his armor in the first place. I can tell you from testing that there IS a failure message for your hack being avoided.

Hack is merely another combat utility skill. It's disarm for shields. If your opponent is ruining your life with hack, he's probably just as capable of disarming your weapon out of the room and laying your ass out for a full OOC minute. You're dead anyway.

If a warrior has to rely on dodge for defense, how is he any different from a ranger minus wilderness skills.

In several key ways.

Firstly, a warrior with his shield missing will still have his weapon, which will continue to parry. A warrior has higher parry and parry is the de facto most important defensive skill* in the game. Secondly, a warrior's hidden offense and defense have a steeper trajectory of growth than a ranger's, and he/she will be dodging more effectively than a similarly trained ranger. Additionally, because their higher offense and defense growth, they will also naturally avoid the hack to begin with better than a similarly trained ranger and are less likely to lose their shield in the first place. Thirdly, a warrior has access to a number of different skills -- disarm your opponent's axe to delay their hacking if you find it unsatisfactory.

Suggesting hack makes a warrior = ranger in combat capacity is ridiculous. Warriors are not singularly defined by their ability to handle shields so removing the shield from play =! reducing a warrior to ranger status. Hack is a fine addition to the game. Shields should not be uncounterable when other combat styles are, and now they no longer enjoy that status.

*Edit: at least those appearing on the skill-sheet. An argument could be made for hidden defense being more critical.

Edit # 2: I reread my first post and your reply, Eyeball, and perhaps the misunderstanding is not the same. A warrior isn't *relying* on dodge in that scenario of a master warrior dodging 4 opponents. Dodge is the first line of defense. If you're fighting 4 people and dodging them, that means you're dancing on their asses and just styling them. If you're frequently parrying you're in a bit of danger and if you constantly have to block (assuming you have a shield equipped), it's worse still and you're probably going to eat several hits in between those blocks. I wasn't saying the warrior was relying on dodge. I'm saying a 50 day warrior is so much better than four 10 day opponents, he only dodges, never parries or blocks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on April 19, 2018, 04:00:32 AM
Keep in mind, Brokkr just mentioned the new classes will have higher caps on their shield use than an oldschool ranger. You may be glad for a hack option when this all eventually plays out in game, in mass. Having effectively used shield use on several burglars, I can both applaud the general shield-use higher caps, as well as a counter.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind, parry is generally shit for deflecting arrows... otherwise everyone and their mother would etwo.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 19, 2018, 04:36:14 AM
"Suggesting hack makes a warrior = ranger in combat capacity is ridiculous."

I didn't suggest this, you did, by claiming a master warrior can effectively dispense with a shield and dodge. If that's so, then a master ranger can be just as good, with a defense as high and a parry nearly as high, and with a whole bunch of wilderness skills a warrior doesn't get. It might take longer to get there (which I sort of doubt, especially given how rangers have higher wisdoms from what I've seen), but so what.

At this point, we don't know how many classes get this skill. From what little I've observed, it doesn't have a penalty to its use like disarm and bash do. So a few "hackers", even with only a 10% chance per strike, could quickly reduce a shield.

This makes shields less effective. The most distinguishing feature of a warrior, in my opinion, was high shield use. So it makes warriors less effective.

But who knows, maybe warriors (or their equivalent) will just start carry a few light shields in their inventories now. EDIT: maybe we'll even see non-combatants serving as shield dispensers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 19, 2018, 09:26:23 AM
My concern with Hack is primarily in that it will be an actual skill, but right now it is just a simple ability.

If it requires only chopping weapons? That might be fine.

If the delay is significant? Fine.

If it takes multiple hacks at a shield to damage it enough to be obliterated? Fine.


Warrior, as a class right now, is more defined by Disarm and Bash than it is tanking with high shield use. As others have said, the new Guilds will have higher shield use than before. I'm concerned, as others, that the Heavy Combat Classes will see a lesser defined role, but I don't think that has anything to do with Hack as a skill. There seems to be a lot of limitations to it right now, and like threaten, I wonder how often it will even see use.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 19, 2018, 10:31:11 AM
It is an actual skill. Most folks are using the functionality that exists for anyone to use it, just like anyone can kick.  There are new classes with the actual skill on their skill list though.

Abilities are something completely different.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 19, 2018, 10:45:03 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 19, 2018, 04:36:14 AM

I didn't suggest this, you did, by claiming a master warrior can effectively dispense with a shield and dodge.

You're misunderstanding. Even holding an intact shield, a day 50 warrior is going to dodge 4 day 5 opponent's strikes,  not block. That's how combat code works in this game. Secondly, five low level warriors are no more likely to spam hack successfully by virtue of numbers than they are to kick down a master warrior. There's  a reason people don't complain about a wave of fresh characters murdering old timers by spamming kick, and it's because the kicks don't connect. Similarly, five people hacking at you will likewise not be a problem, because a master warrior has high enough innate defense to avoid or mitigate it. The fact that you also think that the moment a shield is out of a warrior's hands means you've neutralized what makes a warrior a warrior bespeaks to me a relative inexperience with armageddon combat. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but perhaps you should gather some practical experience before suggesting what is effectovely a balance patch for shields is horribly unfair to warriors. I'm a warrior and this is fine.

On the subject on practical experience, Riev:

Hack requires a chopping weapon.

It has similar delays to disarm or kick.

I connected four times on a gith shield and dropped it to used. I hacked perhaps 12-15 times to do it. 4 Stam a hack same as bash.

I don't have the skill so I'm going to hypothesize damage will increase with skill. But given the delays and the fact that a low defense compared to my offense gith dodged me 70% of the time... I'm not worried.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 19, 2018, 02:18:52 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on April 19, 2018, 10:45:03 AM
The fact that you also think that the moment a shield is out of a warrior's hands means you've neutralized what makes a warrior a warrior bespeaks to me a relative inexperience with armageddon combat.

Possibly. I played one of the very first master warriors, but shields didn't block back then and parry was much more effective. Since then, I've had a habit of retiring characters before they reached their full potential.

In any case, time will tell. It looks to me like the class changes will produce a spectrum of abilities instead of the stark differences we see between current classes, and starting skill levels will be higher, which will make it difficult for anyone stand out anymore.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 19, 2018, 02:49:32 PM
Eyeball. Let's just say shield use is more effective then parry. Not by much. Maybe twice as much, or three times, or ten times as good?  I'm exaggerating, sorry. But shield use is the method a warrior can tank 15 spiders while the rest of the byn band are chipping them away, one by one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on April 19, 2018, 03:59:25 PM
Quote from: Dar on April 19, 2018, 02:49:32 PM
Eyeball. Let's just say shield use is more effective then parry. Not by much. Maybe twice as much, or three times, or ten times as good?  I'm exaggerating, sorry. But shield use is the method a warrior can tank 15 spiders while the rest of the byn band are chipping them away, one by one.

Shield use is not as effective as parry. If you have to choose between one or the other, parry is far superior.

A fighter with jman shield and no parry branched holding a sword and shield will get utterly trashed by a fighter with only a weapon (no shield) and jman parry.

The reason the persistent myth of shield use as the ultimate style (archery battles not withstanding) has remained is because if you have parry and shield use, you get both rolls on top of your defense. It's not that block is AMAZING, it's just that you get a third chance (after dodge and parry fail) to escape damage, which is great. But it's because shield use is on top of parry, not better than parry.

Parry is worlds away better than shielduse.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 19, 2018, 04:07:34 PM
Not really the place to stray into this conversation, as the topic has stopped really being relevant to the release notes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on April 20, 2018, 11:25:34 AM
My only point about the Hack skill is that with damaging armor becoming more (much more?) common I hope that the armor repair skill become more common as well. Currently you have to be a full merchant, an Armor crafter specialist or a mercenary subguild to have any chance of maintaining your armor more than simply emote rubbing it with a rag. Will my full time fighter, raider, enforcer or soldier, heavy combatants who would be expected to have and care for their armor, have access to the Armor Repair at a level to patch it at least long enough to last an expedition between having it in at Salarr for a full overhaul with this new Hack skill smashing it all up?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 20, 2018, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on April 20, 2018, 11:25:34 AM
My only point about the Hack skill is that with damaging armor becoming more (much more?) common I hope that the armor repair skill become more common as well. Currently you have to be a full merchant, an Armor crafter specialist or a mercenary subguild to have any chance of maintaining your armor more than simply emote rubbing it with a rag. Will my full time fighter, raider, enforcer or soldier, heavy combatants who would be expected to have and care for their armor, have access to the Armor Repair at a level to patch it at least long enough to last an expedition between having it in at Salarr for a full overhaul with this new Hack skill smashing it all up?

Greater need for armor repair is one reason I actually like this idea.
But the armor repair with Salarr is usually so cheap, it's hardly worth wasting time with armor repair skill, instead of just sending the armor in for repair at the shop anyway.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 20, 2018, 02:30:03 PM
Is there a penalty for failing the skill? Like kicking, bashing, disarming, all of that can be reversed. If you bash and fail, you go prone. If you disarm and fail bad, your own weapon goes flying. If you kick and the guy is so much better at you, you go prone as well.

What's the penalty for failing hack?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: SilkyBoi on April 20, 2018, 03:47:13 PM
Don't forget the critical fail.

You slip and clumsily hack apart your tembo hide cuirass.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 27, 2018, 11:52:17 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1012588.html#msg1012588

Riposte
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Riposte

Oooo.  Combat Stances.   This is awesome.

I hope they eventually open up combat moves for sneaks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LucildaHunta on May 27, 2018, 12:51:59 PM
I wish I had time to play. This looks very, very interesting.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Large Hero on May 27, 2018, 12:53:40 PM
I'm curious as to how riposte has been balanced with the other weapon types, considering that it can only be used with slashing. More attacks that are harder to block or parry are pretty powerful.

Maybe this just means that stuff like hack will be restricted to chopping/bludgeoning (is this already the case?), or the other weapon types will get their own special attack.

I guess we'll see how it unfolds! At any rate, I applaud adding new stuff to the game. I prefer adding things frequently as parts over time, like how hack and riposte have come in, as opposed to adding a bunch of commands at once after a very long design period.

Cool changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on May 27, 2018, 01:23:21 PM
Great.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jozhole on May 27, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on May 27, 2018, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Jozhole on May 27, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on May 27, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 27, 2018, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Jozhole on May 27, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

You're kidding right?!?!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 27, 2018, 03:49:51 PM
Is this again only available to new beta classes, or will warrior have access?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on May 27, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
For clarification, does entering the riposte stance limit you to only ripostes, or do you attack normally as well?

If it's the latter, I assume there's some sort of drawback, right? Otherwise why would anybody not always be in the riposte stance if they're able?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 03:58:56 PM
Riposte as a skill is on new class skill lists.  For folks that do not have it on their skill list, I believe it will work with some level of base ability, like hack.

Drawbacks, if any, can be discovered as one uses the skill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 27, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Ah, so based on other skills or abilities, it still has a base chance for success even if it's not on your skill list?

Just speaking from the standpoint of playing a "master warrior" that might suddenly be rolled by scrubs with access to skills that the master warrior can't utilize. That is helpful at least.

Thank you for the code work! Very cool to see things like stances and weapon based abilities added to the game. Super fresh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on May 27, 2018, 04:44:19 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on May 27, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
Quote from: Krath on May 27, 2018, 04:44:19 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on May 27, 2018, 05:18:48 PM
Yeah, I deliberately played a regular guild because I was afraid it'd be my last chance to really give it a try before the overhaul, but all this beta-exclusive cool stuff makes me want to store so I can play with the new skills. I don't want to want to store!

EDIT: Hopefully this doesn't sound like an actual complaint. The only reason I feel this way is because it's super exciting. We'll all get to play the new classes eventually!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 27, 2018, 06:06:03 PM
Is there any chance of particularly long lived characters getting access to these new skills once the new guilds go in?

I mean, I get that these are advanced skills and not everyone is going to get them. But they do seem like fundamental combat skills that will set apart the new and old guilds by a decent margin once people with the new guilds can match the old ones.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on May 27, 2018, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a 'thrusting' or 'jabbing' ability that targets a victim's joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to 'hack', razors be able to 'riposte'.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since 'rapiers' are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:16:28 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 27, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
Quote from: Krath on May 27, 2018, 04:44:19 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

It would be really easy to add riposte to warriors, from a code sense, due to work related by the new classes that Nessalin did.

So why don't we?

The first part of that answer is that by limiting to the new classes we are limiting to a small number of play testers that have agreed to report bugs and balance issues to us.  So we have time to see them in action on a small scale and figure out any bugs, but also figure out if they unbalance play or change the combat dynamic in a way we didn't anticipate, without making this an issue needing urgent attention because we rolled it out to the entire player base.  We have until the new classes go live to essentially test and tweak them.

The second part of that answer is around what happens after going live.  The long term revolves around the new classes, but there will be all the existing classes from existing characters for some time.  We aren't crafting the new classes to be compared to the old classes.  So lets say warrior gets some skills that one of the new heavy classes does not, but the new heavy class gets riposte.  If we give warrior riposte, do you think we will be opening ourselves up to eternal comparisons on why we should add the skills warrior got but the new class didn't to the new class, because we were willing to give warrior the new skills?  That is where we (and you can totally blame me for this) don't want to go, and would rather prefer that warrior keep its unique flavor, while there are still warrior characters around, distinct to the new classes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:20:21 PM
Quote from: Vox on May 27, 2018, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a 'thrusting' or 'jabbing' ability that targets a victim's joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to 'hack', razors be able to 'riposte'.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since 'rapiers' are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

We are not unaware of this, and have an idea or two of what we could do, but haven't mapped out or committed to anything there.  If we added a skill, it would be much more likely to add something in that is not currently possible, rather than simply replicate what is already possible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on May 27, 2018, 06:23:30 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:20:21 PM
Quote from: Vox on May 27, 2018, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.

I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Stabbing is a subset of piercing and governed by piercing weapon skill but also separately by the hidden weapon-type vs race hit table. Backstab is obviously stabbing weapons, which leaves piercing weapons without a special ability. So it would be nice to see a piercing specific skill for those nomad spear-toters out there. Like a 'thrusting' or 'jabbing' ability that targets a victim's joints (shoulder, elbow targetable to either es or ep) giving a chance at disarm whatever is being brandished or held? Perhaps polearms could do the same? Just as halberds should also be able to 'hack', razors be able to 'riposte'.. or perhaps just allow piercing weapons to riposte as well since 'rapiers' are considered piercing weapons and are most realistically able to riposte?

We are not unaware of this, and have an idea or two of what we could do, but haven't mapped out or committed to anything there.  If we added a skill, it would be much more likely to add something in that is not currently possible, rather than simply replicate what is already possible.

The fact that you're thinking about it is good enough for me! Thanks for the additions, the updates and the quick responses!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 07:06:34 PM
Quote from: Krath on May 27, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 27, 2018, 01:26:04 PM
Quote from: Jozhole on May 27, 2018, 01:24:07 PM
Will the other skills like razor weapons and whatnot be getting any skills?
Tier 2 weapon skills are limited to Gladiator characters, so doubtful.

You're kidding right?!?!

I seriously hope this is a joke too.  :-\
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 07:11:32 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TheWanderer on May 27, 2018, 07:44:55 PM
Are you not entertained?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rathustra on May 27, 2018, 08:01:11 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 07:11:32 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.

The 'advanced weapon skills' were restricted to a single guild and had maybe, at best, a half dozen objects for each. Some more popular ones had more objects, others had maybe one or two. The skills were added a long time ago and never developed. When attained they didn't grant anything beyond a new degree of combat prowess - no special moves or unusual techniques. They were just like the regular skills - only with exotic weapons.

The items aren't being removed and will now probably get more use. Plus we don't have to awkwardly try and make four different categories that somehow encompass every unusual type of weapon. Heck, maybe we could even focus on distinguishing these exotic weapons in a more meaningful way than gateposting them at the very extreme ends of combat grinding.

To compare a completely new combat skill that works across every possible slashing weapon, factoring in each weapon's individual qualities to a cupboard and these empty, featureless weapon skills to a room doesn't work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 08:34:45 PM
In conjunction with what Rath said:

These skills tended to not be used even when they were branched.  They acted more as a goalpost than actual skills folks made use of.  They make more sense as a skill that anyone can make use of (Penned Gladiators) in a context that also makes more sense IC'ly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on May 27, 2018, 08:42:00 PM
I feel like that'd make more sense if the weapons were actually that weird and exotic. Some were, yes, but many were pretty ordinary. Hopefully this change will inspire some new objects that are weirder and more geared towards showmanship than a simple polearm--and maybe some of the plainer ones can be reclassed into basic weapon types.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 27, 2018, 09:16:19 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:16:28 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 27, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
Quote from: Krath on May 27, 2018, 04:44:19 PM
I am going to ask a question, and my delivery will probably be shit so I apologize if it comes off as attacking, it is not meant to be. Why aren't these new skills being incorporated to the current classes where it would make sense? Riposte stance for instance, why wouldn't a warrior have it?
The logical part of me says something like "It would be hard to impliment cause code" But staff overhauled archery and made it into separate skills just fine. I am curious as to the answer to this as well.

It would be really easy to add riposte to warriors, from a code sense, due to work related by the new classes that Nessalin did.

So why don't we?

The first part of that answer is that by limiting to the new classes we are limiting to a small number of play testers that have agreed to report bugs and balance issues to us.  So we have time to see them in action on a small scale and figure out any bugs, but also figure out if they unbalance play or change the combat dynamic in a way we didn't anticipate, without making this an issue needing urgent attention because we rolled it out to the entire player base.  We have until the new classes go live to essentially test and tweak them.

The second part of that answer is around what happens after going live.  The long term revolves around the new classes, but there will be all the existing classes from existing characters for some time.  We aren't crafting the new classes to be compared to the old classes.  So lets say warrior gets some skills that one of the new heavy classes does not, but the new heavy class gets riposte.  If we give warrior riposte, do you think we will be opening ourselves up to eternal comparisons on why we should add the skills warrior got but the new class didn't to the new class, because we were willing to give warrior the new skills?  That is where we (and you can totally blame me for this) don't want to go, and would rather prefer that warrior keep its unique flavor, while there are still warrior characters around, distinct to the new classes.
Yeah I get that, totally understand where you are coming from. I say it sucks, but I suppose it will have to suffice, and we can still use those skills regardless I suppose.


Another question on riposte, if you are going defensive, like say not attacking back, and you go into riposte, will the attacks happen or not?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 10:39:28 PM
No, ditto nosave combat.  Assuming no bugs.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 27, 2018, 10:57:06 PM
Works for me. Thanks Brokkr!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on May 27, 2018, 08:01:11 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on May 27, 2018, 07:11:32 PM
Quote from: BrainySmurf on May 27, 2018, 07:08:51 PM
This is not a joke. Based on previous commentary,  iirc, all advanced weapons will be collected under a single exotic weapon skill and provided to gladiators only.

..But why? Why limit and restrict the game even more? This is disgruntling.

Us and Armageddon is like living in a mansion with no keys. Every other day, a door is being locked, and a cupboard is being unlocked. Sure we get to tinker with these things now available to us, but what we had for the longest time is now gone? It almost seems like we are getting small consolation prizes for what's being taken away. ...Why?

I'm not trying to incite any toxicity or negativity, I'm just being realistic and trying to understand.

The 'advanced weapon skills' were restricted to a single guild and had maybe, at best, a half dozen objects for each. Some more popular ones had more objects, others had maybe one or two. The skills were added a long time ago and never developed. When attained they didn't grant anything beyond a new degree of combat prowess - no special moves or unusual techniques. They were just like the regular skills - only with exotic weapons.

The items aren't being removed and will now probably get more use. Plus we don't have to awkwardly try and make four different categories that somehow encompass every unusual type of weapon. Heck, maybe we could even focus on distinguishing these exotic weapons in a more meaningful way than gateposting them at the very extreme ends of combat grinding.

To compare a completely new combat skill that works across every possible slashing weapon, factoring in each weapon's individual qualities to a cupboard and these empty, featureless weapon skills to a room doesn't work.

I didn't mean to make it out as I'm belittling the work that you all are doing, I just feel like for what you're adding on and expanding on, you've still got a number of things behind locked doors that I would love to see represented in the gameworld again, such as the rest of the elements having their subguilds worked out, or even allowing for full magick guilds put behind a karma wall. I've long been striving for the chance to play one of those (drovian/nilazi), but it's no longer possible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 650Booger on May 27, 2018, 11:12:49 PM
despite staff denials, I'm choosing to believe that this Riposte feature is the first step in making combat more tactical
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 28, 2018, 03:06:25 AM
When did they deny that? It's patently obvious that's part and parcel with the changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on May 28, 2018, 07:28:56 AM
I am amused by the staff response of "These skills barely used anyway." Like the players don't want to use them. When in fact they do. The advanced weapon skills are not used because a of, well, let us call it a code flaw (not really a flaw)...Alright, quirk. In that by the time you gain the advanced weapon skills it it is nearly impossible to raise them to any degree because you are already so good you miss 1 in 100 swings verses the Flash.

Riposte....I don't know yet, will reserve comment. Interesting idea.

I am more worried about the new classes, the more I learn the more I think that players and staff really do not understand balance and why Arm has worked for so many years.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Rumor on May 28, 2018, 08:05:14 AM
Quote from: X-D on May 28, 2018, 07:28:56 AM
I am more worried about the new classes, the more I learn the more I think that players and staff really do not understand balance and why Arm has worked for so many years.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the new classes. I'm reserving any judgment on them until we have an exact idea what each class is capable of and their skill cap potentials. Balance is tricky to accomplish in a multiplayer, pvp capable game. Incredibly balanced and competitive games with long life spans such as Counter Strike and Starcraft (franchise) accomplish what they do due in large part to balance and the limit to variation between options (rock - paper - scissors game design elements), so I'm curious to see how having so many main classes will affect the competency environment across the game.

Being amazing at combat, thieving and crafting will have to have some sort of deficiency elsewhere, but what I hope to see with so many classes coming in, that those deficiencies are much less apparent. I'd prefer to see something rewarding longer lived characters, despite it already being said that we may have potentially higher starting abilities than we're used to. Again, I'm curious and hopeful it plays out much less jarring than I think many people are hyping themselves up to believe it will be and still feel like a natural experience.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 650Booger on May 28, 2018, 01:43:31 PM
Quote from: Veselka on May 28, 2018, 03:06:25 AM
When did they deny that? It's patently obvious that's part and parcel with the changes.

QuoteRiposte is the only stance we have, or have planned, for the time being.

-Brokr in ATS
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on May 28, 2018, 02:01:14 PM
It looks like the game was just patched.  Is it down or WIP?  I currently lost link and can not log on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on May 28, 2018, 02:05:52 PM
There's some ginormous lag, it basically crashed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on May 28, 2018, 02:24:50 PM
Didn't crash, wasn't lag.

Went into an infinite loop.

Bug fixed and rebooted.  Since it was stuck in a loop it wasn't operating without user input.  In other words no one died.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on May 28, 2018, 02:58:36 PM
Quote from: nessalin on May 28, 2018, 02:24:50 PM
Didn't crash, wasn't lag.

Went into an infinite loop.

Bug fixed and rebooted.  Since it was stuck in a loop it wasn't operating without user input.  In other words no one died.

I think something may have just happened again.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on May 28, 2018, 03:31:48 PM
Same issue.  Forgot to compile, last time.  Herp derp.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 28, 2018, 03:53:03 PM
Quote from: 650Booger on May 28, 2018, 01:43:31 PM
Quote from: Veselka on May 28, 2018, 03:06:25 AM
When did they deny that? It's patently obvious that's part and parcel with the changes.

QuoteRiposte is the only stance we have, or have planned, for the time being.

-Brokr in ATS

Cherry picking my response aside, this would only make sense if you only viewed stances as the only thing we could do to make combat more 'tactical'.  Pretty sure we could find other ways to introduce additional combat tactics if it made sense to do so.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Erythil on May 28, 2018, 05:14:56 PM
What is the downside of riposte stance?

Which classes get it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on May 28, 2018, 08:02:39 PM
Quote from: Erythil on May 28, 2018, 05:14:56 PM
What is the downside of riposte stance?

Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 03:58:56 PM
Drawbacks, if any, can be discovered as one uses the skill.

whomp
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 05:48:08 AM
Dude, the new classes are gonna be fucking sick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 29, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cshoov on May 29, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 29, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

Alright, I'll bite: Why?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 29, 2018, 01:21:26 PM
This whole "staff never adds anything but only takes away" perspective kind of blatantly ignores a lot of things that have been added or expanded. I realize it's easy to focus on the negative, I've done it in the past as well, but for goodness' sakes, you can be disappointed about something without crying doom and gloom and entropy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 29, 2018, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: cshoov on May 29, 2018, 01:11:35 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 29, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
I'm very disappointed about the Advanced Weapons rework.

Alright, I'll bite: Why?

I have gotten to Advanced Weapons on a couple PCs, and attempted to utilize them before. However the time involved, and the trickery one has to engage in just to attain them is very much a lengthy goalpost. In addition to the amount of work you then have to put in for them to be more worthwhile than the base weapon skill you had to master just to get it. So why WOULD you use Polearms if you had to spend 30days GETTING Polearms, and then its more worthwhile for you to use Axes because THEY are at master?

But I liked them. I tried to use them. Unfortunately, I kept dying, or storing once I got them. I once engaged in terribly twinky tactics to get Knife Weapons, only to have Nyr almost blacklist me for it, and only because I asked Salarr for custom-crafted knife weapons (which is not easy to say... you need a knife edge... but not a 'normal knife')

I'm just sad that its being shifted to Gladiator-only, and frustrated that the reasoning is because "nobody uses them". It'll be interesting to see these "stances" come about, but I don't necessarily agree with where "exotic weapons" have landed yet.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 29, 2018, 03:01:05 PM
That isn't the only reasoning.

Branching where and like they do creates a set of issues, most prominent being they tend not to be used because by the time someone gets them, they are usually fairly skilled, which means improving them is harder.

To solve that problem folks need to get them earlier, which created different problems in figuring out how to deal with 8 weapon skills instead of 4 in allocating them across the classes.  Compounding that is that 4 of those weapon skills have only a fraction of the number of weapons created for them, which potentially means a huge creation project to get them anywhere near equal.  Add to that getting 4 weapon skills maxed isn't really a problem we tend to have, so its not like we are creating a situation where you relied on the 4 additional weapon skills to continue weapon skill improvement.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 29, 2018, 04:48:37 PM
I was just going off what you both had said about how people don't "use" them even when they have them, which was kind of mis-information considering a lot of people don't even get to that level in the first place. Like saying "we're no longer letting people climb the mountain because most people only climb it once, plant a flag, and then never go back".

I will say, no salt intended, that it sounds like in your response that one major reason these were adjusted was because it was too much work to balance them with the idea of each weapon skill having a "purpose". Which I get. Its much easier to add 4 features than it is 8, and then balance them with 155 different combinations of whatever.

That is why I am disappointed. It feels like something that I had attempted to reach time and again has been removed, and the reason is because its "not worth it". Which makes the 3-4 PCs I'm had that DID get there, feel like they weren't worth it. It just kinda feels like a sock to the gut to say "That thing you keep trying isn't actually available anymore. Please play in Allanak with a slashing weapon instead."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on May 29, 2018, 06:08:06 PM
Quote from: Delirium on May 29, 2018, 01:21:26 PM
This whole "staff never adds anything but only takes away" perspective kind of blatantly ignores a lot of things that have been added or expanded. I realize it's easy to focus on the negative, I've done it in the past as well, but for goodness' sakes, you can be disappointed about something without crying doom and gloom and entropy.

Honestly, I think we're impossibly hard to please at this point.  But I also think it's because things got wrested in certain directions so hard that even the -possibility- of things going back in ways some of us like has us taking deviations from that -particular- course harder than we should.

In other words, I agree, but I think it's also understandable on my (and others') part.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on May 29, 2018, 06:29:07 PM
I've been playing for a long time now, and I am excited to see these changes taking effect. When it comes to Arm, for me, what is fun about it is the immersible environment and the roleplay with others. The character I am playing and the skills they have will still allow me to delve deeply into a role, and it makes me happy that I will have more choices than 'ever' before. From what has been revealed so far, the new classes are going to have more versatility, not less, and that in itself is enough for me.

Thanks for all your efforts, staff!  ;)

ME
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 29, 2018, 08:00:28 PM
Quote from: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

Or that two-handed combat style used to be Jihaens only.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 29, 2018, 08:12:18 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 29, 2018, 08:50:04 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on May 30, 2018, 01:16:48 AM
Quote from: Molten Heart on May 29, 2018, 08:50:04 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2018, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 27, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Piercing - Backstab
Bludgeoning - Sap
Chopping - Hack
Slashing - Riposte
Backstab is stabbing, not piercing.
I wondered who it would be to point that out.  Yes, technically it is a subset of piercing, since the piercing weapons skill governs it.

Will weapons that are a subset of slashing be usable with riposte?
Currently it needs to be a slashing weapon. Slashing weapons do not have a subset like piercing does (stabbing). Branched weapons are different weapons and do not relate.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on May 30, 2018, 03:21:56 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on May 27, 2018, 08:42:00 PM
I feel like that'd make more sense if the weapons were actually that weird and exotic. Some were, yes, but many were pretty ordinary. Hopefully this change will inspire some new objects that are weirder and more geared towards showmanship than a simple polearm--and maybe some of the plainer ones can be reclassed into basic weapon types.

Indeed.  It probably makes a lot of sense for some(most?  all?) of the knife weapons to just be ported to slashing or piercing weapons for example.

When I think exotic weapons that Zalanthan gladiators would use, my mind wanders to stuff like a weighted chain, flails, whips, etc.

There are probably like...  40, total, "advanced" weapons defined - with most of them not even being represented in the game as attainable short of some kind of special GMH order. 
* Razors are most common, but are (from a short audit I just did) universally terrible, stat-wise, for fighting.
* "Knife" weapons have never made any sense (how are "knife" weapons different from uh... "kniiiiiife" weapons) and it's just kind of silly.
* Tridents barely exist (there are only a handful even defined).
* Polearm weapons basically do not exist.
* Pike weapons - exist, but no distinguishing quality vs. anything else.

You'll still be able to use them - I mean, they're not going to shock you if you pick one up.  You might even be able to fight halfway decent with one if the item's been ported to a weapon type that makes sense, that PCs can actually become good at.  People crying doom and gloom about the special category for these, I dunno what to tell ya.  :P  It feels like moping about some exclusivity being gone.  You'll have to find some other high water mark to strive for.  I can already see one (looking at the class trees).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on May 30, 2018, 05:01:25 AM
I reeeaaally want to test-play a heavy mercantile role, which I assume they don't have many of since no one was playtesting an Artisan a while back, but I don't want to give up my current.

I don't want to decry too badly, but these weapons you are describing sound like they either need refurbishing or reclassifying or they're a part of the past. It would be kind of cool to see them around though, and razors, yeah, that sounds hard to kill something with.

But tridents sound so cool.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 30, 2018, 06:10:30 AM
I dont really see much use for razors myself, at least beyond a slitting of the throat ala backstab, otherwise I dont see them being used much in combat, I have seen a few Razoring weapons that do make sense to be used as weapons though.

Pikes? Yeah I can definately see those being used, if not for standard but for killing large game like mekillot where getting too close would probably spell the end for anyone. Might be if someone wants to figure out a way to code giving them a damage boost the bigger the critter?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Erythil on May 31, 2018, 10:10:36 AM
What if exotic weapons functioned as an 'ability' that some classes got, and worked off your base weapon skill for skill grinding purposes?  Tridents would work off of piercing, for instance.  Preserves them as a long-term goal and removes them as a secondary grind.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 10:24:36 AM
Quote from: Erythil on May 31, 2018, 10:10:36 AM
What if exotic weapons functioned as an 'ability' that some classes got, and worked off your base weapon skill for skill grinding purposes?  Tridents would work off of piercing, for instance.  Preserves them as a long-term goal and removes them as a secondary grind.

I mean. They're going to be gone, and I don't see that changing. Not enough people were using them, and its too much of a pain to make them more inline with other skills.

I am still disappointed. It may be the morning's salt intake, but it sounds like it was "too much work" to bring this already-existing system in line with staff views, and it was "easier" to just give them to an incredibly small subset of players (gladiators) and focus instead on making sure each Base weapon skill has a "thing".

With a volunteer staff, it always comes down to the basic issue of "What is easier to do?" versus "How do I want to do it?"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 31, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 10:51:15 AM
There are, Molten.

piercing weapons can backstab
bludgeoning can sap
chopping can hack
slashing can riposte


And that's it. Regardless of the Razor ability to destroy weapons/armor, or a knife-weapon's ability to bypass armor, these four main types have a "thing" associated with the now to make the choices more of a CHOICE than "I guess swords this time?"

"Exotic" weapons had things to them, moreso than just "other people don't have the skill." There was a SERIOUS ADVANTAGE if you could get skill up with them, but the way the game is coded, that wasn't easy without some twinking. So "nobody" was using them, and you'd never see how powerful they were.

Its easier to just remove them, than fix them. To fix them, a volunteer has to be interested and spend time on it, which right now none of the like 16 volunteers are interested in. So they're just being removed for now, and we get "Hack and Riposte" instead.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on May 31, 2018, 11:01:47 AM
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Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on May 31, 2018, 11:09:43 AM
Wouldn't it be "easier" to filter the old advanced weapon types into their respective root-branch of weapons? Or possibly just the basic weapon type that makes sense? Possibly not, given I don't know if they'd still carry their (eta) -alleged- "perks" and somehow end up the most sought after weapons available.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 11:34:46 AM
Quote from: Grapes on May 31, 2018, 11:09:43 AM
Wouldn't it be "easier" to filter the old advanced weapon types into their respective root-branch of weapons? Or possibly just the basic weapon type that makes sense? Possibly not, given I don't know if they'd still carry their "perks" and somehow end up the most sought after weapons available.

For some of them, I wouldn't mind if the "Tridents" suddenly became a subset of piercing, like "stabbing" is. Or if a "pike" is a subset of Bludgeoning (whyyyyyyyyyyy) or whatever.

Of course I want to use razors for their coded ability, but damn would I like to be carrying around a glaive as a subset of slashing. Let me still have the ability/damage of a 2h slashing weapon, but let me determine what I want my slashing weapon to be.

Or give me back my Pike weapons for my mounted warriors.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on May 31, 2018, 11:46:02 AM
I mean I've had a 50 day warrior who didn't move past journeyman in weapons skills. Due to oblique code and a focus on RP I guess. Still kicked butt, but it sucks that you have to be X-D or never even dream of branching an advanced weapon. I'd rather that esoteric achievement be removed and a focus on things like combat stances and combat moves to really emphasize a difference between Scrub and Master. Combat between two master warriors is so unbelievably boring as it stands, so I'm glad Staff is adding some dynamics to different specialties to set them apart.

Rumors of what Advanced Weapons were capable of were sometimes patently obvious, and other times just as esoteric and unconfirmed. At least Staff is now putting it out there in a chart. Though playing a long lived PC now, excited to try out a new combat class for sure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 31, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Or y'all could just, I don't know... play a gladiator? You can play them as secondary PCs. Instead of pretending you'll never ever get to play around with exotic weapons now. Sorry but this really seems like mountains out of molehills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on May 31, 2018, 12:11:45 PM
I would just like to see the gladiators' exotic weapons actually be showmanlike. Stuff like whips, weird flails, multi-bladed weapons. Stuff that looks good but isn't really practical for someone outside the Arena. Not shit like "kniiiiiives."

Then we can move weapons that really are quite ordinary, such as polearms, into regular weapon categories, and continue to add interesting features associated with them like hack and riposte.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 31, 2018, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Delirium on May 31, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
Or y'all could just, I don't know... play a gladiator? You can play them as secondary PCs. Instead of pretending you'll never ever get to play around with exotic weapons now. Sorry but this really seems like mountains out of molehills.

The intended idea for my PC is to be someone who fights with knives. I do not get to play out that aspect as a Penned gladiator.
The intended goal for my new AoD PC is to become a Sergeant over a unit who fights exclusively with Pike Weapons.
I have an idea for a PC who utilizes razor weapons, while working for Salarr, to purposefully increasing their profits with destroyed armor.
I would like to play a Jihaen someday (hahahahh).

So. No, its not "play a penned". I don't miss the weapon skills because hurhurhruhru weapon skills, I miss them because they could be vital points to a goal or planned part of a character's progression. I cannot follow that progression as a penned gladiator.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 31, 2018, 12:19:49 PM
The only intended coded advantage I could find for the advanced weapon skills (which is none of the stuff you are talking about) was replicated to the normal weapon skills for the new classes.  Even the unintended advantage of razors was redesigned into the hack skill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: seidhr on May 31, 2018, 06:41:50 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 31, 2018, 10:51:15 AM
"Exotic" weapons had things to them, moreso than just "other people don't have the skill." There was a SERIOUS ADVANTAGE if you could get skill up with them

This is actually not true.  There was a side effect of razor weapons that was not intended, that they could destroy armor.  That was actually not a design decision and was because they weren't coded into some lookup table.  I think it may have even been fixed now.  None of the other weapon types did anything.  There is lots of conjecture out there that claims not-having-a-skill makes you worse at defending against that weapon type, but as Brokkr just said....  ^^

There is no advantage to any of them other than:  Hurrrrr durrrr I am very skilled warrior, I use "kniiiiiiife" weapons.

...so people OOCly may conclude that you are not to be trifled with - which is 100% silly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on May 31, 2018, 06:51:12 PM
Off topic but a good way to disguise the fact that you're a player AND a staff member when you post on your player forum account is to sometimes rabblerouse a little bit so you look like a loose cannon. This has been useful in my own experience in other games as a same-time player/staffer.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 31, 2018, 06:55:18 PM
After talking about it with Ender...

Roll up all "exotic weapons" into a single exotic weapon proficiency, and make them truly exotic. Weird dark sun-eqsue weapons that are impractical for day to day combat but just look really cool, which explains why gladiators use them.

Fix tridents, pikes, knives, etc to all fall under a sensible category, e.g. polearms/chopping, tridents/piercing, etc.

Because let's be honest, the current exotic weapons aren't really exotic, and truly exotic weapons are exotic because they're impractical to use in everyday combat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Grapes on May 31, 2018, 07:18:00 PM
Dual nunchaku! Three-section-staff! Kusarigama (actually surprisingly effective but still weird enough)! Meteor hammer! Vanilla pudding! Oh, and those nets Mhyrmidons or whatever they're called use. Teacup!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on June 01, 2018, 01:37:30 AM
Quote from: Delirium on May 31, 2018, 06:55:18 PM
After talking about it with Ender...

Roll up all "exotic weapons" into a single exotic weapon proficiency, and make them truly exotic. Weird dark sun-eqsue weapons that are impractical for day to day combat but just look really cool, which explains why gladiators use them.

Fix tridents, pikes, knives, etc to all fall under a sensible category, e.g. polearms/chopping, tridents/piercing, etc.

Because let's be honest, the current exotic weapons aren't really exotic, and truly exotic weapons are exotic because they're impractical to use in everyday combat.

100% this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 01, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
Quote from: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

what? Please. Point. To. Help. File. Omg.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on June 01, 2018, 10:59:50 PM
Quote from: stoicreader on June 01, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
Quote from: AdamBlue on May 29, 2018, 07:49:53 PM
I don't think people even remember that we actually have fire arrows now.

what? Please. Point. To. Help. File. Omg.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg958295.html#msg958295

"-Arrows can now be lit off of torches and campfires, increasing their damage nominally for a short period of time.  When the first goes out the arrow will be blackened, resulting in it doing slightly less damage, and preventing it from being lit again."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on June 02, 2018, 03:39:59 AM
Maybe move all exotic weapons into an 'exotic' or 'gladatorial' category that is just like any normal weapons category, which gladiators start off as being slightly proficient in (apprentice) or moderately proficient in (journeyman) so long as they choose a 'gladiator' subguild.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on June 10, 2018, 12:59:33 PM
As a genuine question...

How much utility is there for listen_wilds?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on June 10, 2018, 01:17:12 PM
Listen isn't just for overhearing conversations.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on June 10, 2018, 01:22:33 PM
While I agree with Delirium's response, what is the main point of separating them? What Problem is the staff trying to solve? Hide and Sneak makes complete sense, but this..I think is overkill.

Here is the Helpfile:

Listen                                                            (Detection)

   While appearing to do little at all, effective use of this skill in fact
begins a time period during which conversations in other rooms may be
heard. Conversations at tables can be overheard, and if the skill level is
great enough, doors can be listened through.

Syntax:
   listen [on|off|status]

Notes:
      Listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can
make noise.

   Listening takes concentration, and so while in use your maximum stun is
decreased based on how good you are at listening.


Delay:

After
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on June 10, 2018, 01:29:10 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 01:42:27 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on June 10, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 01:42:27 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.

Try to stay positive.  How are you drawing this conclusion?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on June 10, 2018, 01:53:36 PM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on June 10, 2018, 01:59:44 PM
A number of play testers were rather strident that the wilderness classes have some way to detect certain stealth.  Hopefully they didn't just want to overhear conversations, since it makes zero sense for wilderness folks to get that in their toolbox, so they don't.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on June 10, 2018, 02:15:58 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on June 10, 2018, 01:59:44 PM
A number of play testers were rather strident that the wilderness classes have some way to detect certain stealth.  Hopefully they didn't just want to overhear conversations, since it makes zero sense for wilderness folks to get that in their toolbox, so they don't.

What about scouts going out to try to figure out the enemies plans...Im just...I get it, realism realism realism...But the Realism vs Playability balance needs to come into account also.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: IronGold on June 10, 2018, 02:17:50 PM
What about a scout? Sending a scout out to watch an enemy and listen for any details on movements or information....that seems pretty vital for them in that sense. I'm not talking about a spy in a city, but watching and listening to raiders from cover in the brush or in a war situation where a spy is listening from under sand cover from nearby troops.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Insigne on June 10, 2018, 02:21:52 PM
Steering the current topic a little but...
Quote-Added subguilds for beta testing.
New subguilds? Where? :o
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on June 10, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
Do you have similar plans to break up scan into city scan and wilderness scan?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on June 10, 2018, 02:38:42 PM
Quote from: Insigne on June 10, 2018, 02:21:52 PM
Steering the current topic a little but...
Quote-Added subguilds for beta testing.
New subguilds? Where? :o

(https://objects-us-west-1.dream.io/secrettoeverybody/images/secret.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on June 10, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: Nao on June 10, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
Do you have similar plans to break up scan into city scan and wilderness scan?

It's been done a long time ago, no?

Edit: Oh, you mean making them two different skills in the skill list.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on June 10, 2018, 02:55:58 PM
Quote from: IronGold on June 10, 2018, 02:17:50 PM
What about a scout? Sending a scout out to watch an enemy and listen for any details on movements or information....that seems pretty vital for them in that sense. I'm not talking about a spy in a city, but watching and listening to raiders from cover in the brush or in a war situation where a spy is listening from under sand cover from nearby troops.

Quote from: Krath on June 10, 2018, 02:15:58 PM
What about scouts going out to try to figure out the enemies plans...Im just...I get it, realism realism realism...But the Realism vs Playability balance needs to come into account also.

all secret plans are to be discussed outside the gate five leagues inside a tent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on June 10, 2018, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on June 10, 2018, 12:59:33 PM
As a genuine question...

How much utility is there for listen_wilds?

This is where I'm at. Listen can be marginally helpful if you don't have scan... but really, listen's usefulness is listening in on conversations, not the other things it does.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 03:56:21 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on June 10, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 01:42:27 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.

Try to stay positive.  How are you drawing this conclusion?

Skills related to listening well in the wilderness, like knowing what movements make sounds so you can move silently, are learned from listening. I don't understand how to fail at listening out in the wilderness. My 5 day ranger had listen always on outside. It never got any better. If it wasn't due to the thief subguild that special skill not mentioned here would have never branched.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on June 10, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
Quote from: Malken on June 10, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: Nao on June 10, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
Do you have similar plans to break up scan into city scan and wilderness scan?

It's been done a long time ago, no?

Edit: Oh, you mean making them two different skills in the skill list.

No, I don't mean that - and I don't think so? If you play a character with city sneak/hide, you tend get spotted by hunters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 04:35:30 PM
It'd be really cool if this change meant that some new utility (and skillup opportunities) for wilderness listen could be eventually added. It'd be neat if wilderness listeners, for example, got a message when a PC/NPC/mob entered or left one of the adjacent rooms.  "You hear sounds of movement to the west."  Things like that!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 05:25:32 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 04:35:30 PM
It'd be really cool if this change meant that some new utility (and skillup opportunities) for wilderness listen could be eventually added. It'd be neat if wilderness listeners, for example, got a message when a PC/NPC/mob entered or left one of the adjacent rooms.  "You hear sounds of movement to the west."  Things like that!

This happens already with scan I believe.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
It has never happened for me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 05:58:28 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 05:37:41 PM
It has never happened for me.

foic
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on June 10, 2018, 06:58:29 PM
Quote from: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 03:56:21 PM
Quote from: CodeMaster on June 10, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Quote from: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 01:42:27 PM
Sounds like now it will be almost impossible to branch certain ranger things from listen.

Try to stay positive.  How are you drawing this conclusion?

Skills related to listening well in the wilderness, like knowing what movements make sounds so you can move silently, are learned from listening. I don't understand how to fail at listening out in the wilderness. My 5 day ranger had listen always on outside. It never got any better. If it wasn't due to the thief subguild that special skill not mentioned here would have never branched.

I don't know either, but my understanding is that rangers still have the legacy listen skill.  From what I've heard about the new guilds, they're designed around minimizing some of this grind.  The pickpocket guild for example is one of the toughest nuts to crack in terms of branching skills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on June 10, 2018, 08:22:18 PM
As a note, the purpose of my question was to find out if listen had also been changed to add utility to it.

In it's current form, listen as listen_wild is pretty much a skill for a nincompoop.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on June 10, 2018, 10:47:40 PM
Unless listen_wild gives you something akin to the watch command in that you 'hear' activity very far to the south or something without having to actually look or watch in that direction.. I'm also having a hard time understanding why this was separated into city/wilderness varietals.

For playability, a keen ear should be a keen ear.. whether it's voices you're hearing or the clatter of giant insect claws across terrain, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on June 10, 2018, 11:03:29 PM
I think it is more an ability to separate ambient sounds of the current environment from sounds that shouldn't be there.

Edited to add: I do believe, however, conversations held in the wilderness should be part of this, if it isn't.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on June 10, 2018, 11:08:11 PM
I agree with Vox, it makes little sense to me, sound is sound...being good at telling what sounds are what in whatever noise is the same. I am as adept at telling if that is a deer or a squirrel in the woods at 40 yards as I am at listening to conversations in bars two booths away.

Also, wind...I do not have a problem with it being harder, but not at all? Come on.

Also...the sound of conversation tends to really travel in the woods when you are actively listening. I have heard people talking and thought they were on my property...go to check and find out they are 300 yards away down the hill 50 yards outside my fence. True, that is when the wind is blowing towards me.

Which, if you actually want to be realistic, Sound travels very well with the wind...make wilderness listen directional in all but the strongest storms. That would be cool. I have had people upwind of me 70 yards not hear when I fire a .22 rifle in a good 15mph breeze.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on June 10, 2018, 11:14:37 PM
If it works like wilderness/city scan it's probably "it still works, but you're better at it in the correct environment."

So with desert listen, you aren't savvy Aide Amos, sidling up to Tressy and Talia to hear their bar conversation, but you might still overhear some of their chit-chat, or a guy trying not so well to follow you in the street. But, because you're Dusty McDunesman, you can hear a goudra sneaking through the brush at fifty paces, and sidle up on that encampment in the dunes to hear their plans for a dawn attack like nobody's business.

That's how I would assume it works based on the way wilderness vs city hunt and scan already work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 10, 2018, 11:33:28 PM
Our ears can pick up thousands of sounds over a few seconds. What we choose to listen to is a matter of training.

This is why my spouse never can hear me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Insigne on June 10, 2018, 11:38:40 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on June 10, 2018, 04:35:30 PM
It'd be really cool if this change meant that some new utility (and skillup opportunities) for wilderness listen could be eventually added. It'd be neat if wilderness listeners, for example, got a message when a PC/NPC/mob entered or left one of the adjacent rooms.  "You hear sounds of movement to the west."  Things like that!
+1

In a similar line of thought, I'd love to see some kind of feedback when a stealthy attempt to enter a room fails. Something like 1) a hemote-esque echo:


The tall, muscular human arrives from the west.
(You notice he is trying to avoid notice.)


... or 2) a different room arrival echo:


The tall, muscular human stealthily arrives from the north.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on June 11, 2018, 01:32:06 AM
I can foresee people losing ability to hear things during powerful enough storms, while people with listen still able to figure things out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on June 11, 2018, 01:47:35 AM
I was sort of meaning to take a break, but reading the last two pages has got me excited.

I am not confused because I sort of assume that the new listen skills will fall conveniently into place under the new skills system, much like riposte and hack will.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on June 11, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
I like Dar's idea, but I say take it a step further and make it so you have to shout in sandstorms to be heard, and even then only in the same room. The listen skill could give you a chance of hearing normal volume speech in the same room or shouts in the next room, but whispering and all that is out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on June 11, 2018, 10:08:14 AM
Quote from: sleepyhead on June 11, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
I like Dar's idea, but I say take it a step further and make it so you have to shout in sandstorms to be heard, and even then only in the same room. The listen skill could give you a chance of hearing normal volume speech in the same room or shouts in the next room, but whispering and all that is out.
+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on June 18, 2018, 12:24:23 PM
Latest release changes listen so wind speed reduces ability, does not block it.  Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: deskoft on June 18, 2018, 12:29:13 PM
I love the fact that this factors into listen, but I haven't tested it!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on June 18, 2018, 01:15:03 PM
Quote from: nessalin on June 18, 2018, 12:24:23 PM
Latest release changes listen so wind speed reduces ability, does not block it.  Thanks for the feedback.

This is awesome. I can't wait to check it out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on June 19, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
Not sure if this is the best place to discuss, but oh my, I'm loving the help file for Adventurer. "Help Adventurer" and "help adventurer branching" together let me know exactly what I'm going to get from the class.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: WithSprinkles on June 19, 2018, 01:49:12 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on June 19, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
Not sure if this is the best place to discuss, but oh my, I'm loving the help file for Adventurer. "Help Adventurer" and "help adventurer branching" together let me know exactly what I'm going to get from the class.

This post actually prompted me to look at the files. Let me just say:

YAAAAS!
(http://www.photos-a-la-con.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/image-drole-jesus-carlton1.gif)

Love it! Dunno if this is currently being done, but mage subguild branching info would be useful too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on June 19, 2018, 02:02:45 PM
Not really the place, but there is a plan to have a place soonish (next couple of weeks).

There are no plans to make magick any less mysterious.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: KankWhisperer on June 21, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Will city / desert elves still be restricted to certain classes in the new system?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on June 29, 2018, 11:21:57 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on June 21, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Will city / desert elves still be restricted to certain classes in the new system?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on June 30, 2018, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on June 21, 2018, 03:37:00 PM
Will city / desert elves still be restricted to certain classes in the new system?

(https://i.imgur.com/8WhGI2V.jpg)

I believe someone said
Criminal is City Elf
Wilderness is Desert Elf
General/City is Both.

Don't quote me on it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Molten Heart on July 03, 2018, 10:05:07 AM
.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 10:10:06 AM
Quote from: Molten Heart on July 03, 2018, 10:05:07 AM
I'm so glad the new classes are live!

I noticed the CGPs are working now. I noticed I have less options now and I was wondering where I can learn more about how CGPs take to regenerate.

Thanks!

It is described in this staff announcement:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

Examples:
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on July 03, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
With the GCP functioning and the new classes in, when can we expect karma reviews to open up?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on July 03, 2018, 11:02:11 AM
My excitement and enthusiasm for the new classes (which is substantial) is matched only by my disappointment at the custom crafting changes. I just hope you guys will at least consider finding a way for magickers to CC in the future, because I feel like this is a big step back for making magick more interesting than just a bunch of coded spells. I know you felt it was rarely used, but magickers being able to CC opened the door for a lot more ritualistic/superstitious elements. I also get that this is supposed to encourage people to work together, but that's hard for gickers, especially when the crafts they want done are weird or esoteric in some way.

I know I've made this my pet issue and ranted extensively about it, but this is probably the last I'll bother complaining about it on the GDB. It's done and decided, and it was done and decided, it seems, long before I learned about it. I'm just holding out hope that you will keep your minds open to broadening who can CC a bit after you get a bit more data from the changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 03, 2018, 11:12:48 AM
Mad props. I'm anxious to try these out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 03, 2018, 11:36:24 AM
Quote from: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 10:10:06 AM
Quote from: Molten Heart on July 03, 2018, 10:05:07 AM
I'm so glad the new classes are live!

I noticed the CGPs are working now. I noticed I have less options now and I was wondering where I can learn more about how CGPs take to regenerate.

Thanks!

It is described in this staff announcement:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52604.0.html

Examples:

  • Player has 3/3 karma, uses 3 for a mul now they have 0/3.  30d they move to 1/3 karma. 45 days later 2/3 and then 45 days more 3/3 for a Total of 4 months.
  • Player has 2/2 karma, uses 1 and now has 1/2.  30 days later they get that one back.
  • Player has 3/3 karma, uses 2 and now has 1/3.  Normally they would recoup 1 and 30d and one at 45 d.  But let's say this player has a character die after a couple weeks.  Now they are at 1/3.  If they spend that one, now they are 0/3 so the first point will take 30 days to regen and another 45d on the next point.

More news from Discord:
QuoteNathvaan - Today at 10:38 AM
If you have 3 karma you could choose a desert elf wind travel (4 karma total) because it only looks at the highest karma option to decide how much karma it 'costs'.
Riev, the Rimbly Jimbles - Today at 10:39 AM
So. Simply.
"Karma options are not additive/cumulative"?
Nathvaan - Today at 10:40 AM
Correct.  It's not CGP.  We went a slightly different route when implementing.
Riev, the Rimbly Jimbles - Today at 10:41 AM
Thank you for not just linking me to help CGP or something like that. I don't know what help file would contain that information, but I assume thats not public knowledge?
Nathvaan - Today at 10:44 AM
It should be but it's probably not clear.  I'll work on that to make sure it's transparent.
audi - Today at 10:45 AM
FYI, you probably should just delete 'help cgp' (and the links to it) since that's confusing and cut-and-paste the stuff in the gdb link you gave me into 'help karma'; should cover your bases.
Nathvaan - Today at 10:46 AM
@audi Yeah, agreed.  That's part of what we will do when trying to make sure all this is transparent... cleaning up the stuff that is muddying the waters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: kroack on July 03, 2018, 02:00:43 PM
Very cool to have the new classes live.

I'd suggest getting the website dropdowns updated as soon as the html monkeys have time because that's definitely gonna confuse potential new players when they're trying to make their first character.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: kroack on July 03, 2018, 02:00:43 PM
Very cool to have the new classes live.

I'd suggest getting the website dropdowns updated as soon as the html monkeys have time because that's definitely gonna confuse potential new players when they're trying to make their first character.

Great point.  I totally forgot to get that updated.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 03:00:55 PM

I'm seeing a bug ...

With an existing character, if from the login menu I hit "O" for class options, I only see the old classes, not the new ones.

Tried to bug it in game but it bugged one of the bracer's I was wearing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 03:08:13 PM
Quote from: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 03:00:55 PM

I'm seeing a bug ...

With an existing character, if from the login menu I hit "O" for class options, I only see the old classes, not the new ones.

Tried to bug it in game but it bugged one of the bracer's I was wearing.

For accounts without characters who haven't logged in or for accounts who haven't logged into a character at least once this will look wrong.  I have it on my list to re-mediate this view as soon as I can manage.  If you don't have a character please login once.  If not then open a request and we can set it for you.

If you already logged in then please back out to the menu and you should see the right options at the O menu.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
I think Nath meant to say....If you have a character, please log in once.  If you don't have a character, open a request and we will try to fix it for you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 03:23:39 PM
Ah!

Yeah, logging into the character worked. I now see the appropriate options.

Should I be seeing the old subguilds available at 1 karma point? This is what I'm seeing:

Sub-classes:
a) Archer               d) Armor Crafter        e) Bard
g) Bounty Hunter        i) Caravan Guide        j) Con Artist
k) Crafter              m) Forester             n) Gladiator
p) Guard                q) House Servant        r) Hunter
s) Jeweler              u) Linguist             w) Mercenary
y) Nomad                aa) Outlaw              ab) Physician
af) Tailor              ag) Thief               ah) Thug
ai) Weapon Crafter      bu) Custom Crafter
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 03:54:34 PM
You mean extended subguilds?

Spendable karma is now live.  You will only see options that you have available, spendable karma for.

We've been tracking karma spending for months now, it just wasn't impacting players in chargen.  So if you used karma options in the past, you could still be regenerating the spendable karma.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 03:57:52 PM
Quote from: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 03:23:39 PM
Ah!

Yeah, logging into the character worked. I now see the appropriate options.

Should I be seeing the old subguilds available at 1 karma point? This is what I'm seeing:

Sub-classes:
a) Archer               d) Armor Crafter        e) Bard
g) Bounty Hunter        i) Caravan Guide        j) Con Artist
k) Crafter              m) Forester             n) Gladiator
p) Guard                q) House Servant        r) Hunter
s) Jeweler              u) Linguist             w) Mercenary
y) Nomad                aa) Outlaw              ab) Physician
af) Tailor              ag) Thief               ah) Thug
ai) Weapon Crafter      bu) Custom Crafter

There may have been an issue with what your current karma was set to.  I updated it on your account and it seems to have fixed the display issue. I will continue to monitor people's current karma value to see if there is any odd issues for some accounts.

Please everyone bear with us as we try and normalize everything.  It's always a bit of a pain to have backward compatibility with accounts that could have been around for decades!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 03, 2018, 04:03:28 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 03:54:34 PM
We've been tracking karma spending for months now, it just wasn't impacting players in chargen.  So if you used karma options in the past, you could still be regenerating the spendable karma.

o shit, I made a 2-point throwaway character.  :-[
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 03, 2018, 04:11:58 PM
Quote from: Nathvaan on July 03, 2018, 03:57:52 PM
There may have been an issue with what your current karma was set to.  I updated it on your account and it seems to have fixed the display issue. I will continue to monitor people's current karma value to see if there is any odd issues for some accounts.

Please everyone bear with us as we try and normalize everything.  It's always a bit of a pain to have backward compatibility with accounts that could have been around for decades!

Force updating it seems to have worked. I was seeing delf as a race option so it was picking up the 1, but not showing it in extended subguilds. Now I'm seeing everything as per before. Looks good.

Normalizing is going to take weeks. I get that. Hope my reports are helping.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on July 03, 2018, 04:31:46 PM
Do the subclasses which have "listen" have city or wilderness versions of it established?

As in, if one takes a 0 CGP subclass of bard, do they get journeyman city_listen or wildnerness_listen or is it legacy?

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2018, 05:21:37 PM
Master Trader now has wilderness listen.  But they also have legacy listen.  All other subclasses have legacy listen, currently.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Zerero on July 03, 2018, 05:40:47 PM
I'm only seeing the old classes as well  :'(
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on July 03, 2018, 11:04:17 PM
Everyone prepared for the mass storage and suicide that's about to happen?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on July 03, 2018, 11:24:28 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 03, 2018, 11:04:17 PM
Everyone prepared for the mass storage and suicide that's about to happen?

Explains why my character report hasn't been resolved.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 04, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
I don't know what happened, Lord Templar. Everyone in the city just got in line and walked out the gates and threw themselves off the shield wall....
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on July 04, 2018, 06:55:37 AM
People are already mistaking me for a new class and trying to employ me. I suppose I ought to exist from time to time, you know, log in. If you're having trouble getting employed right now, like you're a dwarf who wants to be a House crafter, this is a good time to get on the boat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on July 04, 2018, 12:07:50 PM
When I search Custom Craft on the website there is a conflict of information between the first two entries. One says you need to be master the other does not.

Are the new custom crafter sub class limited to 1 entry per month?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 12:24:03 PM
I'm a lot more in the bummed place than excited place at the moment. Merchant was by far my favorite guild, and as far as I can see, there is just no way to make the functional equivalent of crafting ability plus social skills (listen). Artisan doesn't have listen, fence doesn't start with listen (and doesn't have full crafting skills). So in order to get full crafting skills and my favorite merchant skills (really just listen), I'd have to spend a subguild, which would mean no custom crafting for me. Super bummed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on July 04, 2018, 12:37:58 PM
Did you check out craftsperson?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
It's in the same category as fence--missing crafting skills.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
And we're talking big ones, the ones that allow you to just roll up a merchant without any preconceived notion about what house you want to join, if any. Craftsperson is missing bowmaking (Kurac). There is just no way to make a character that gets master crafting in anything that might end up relevant, and listen.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on July 04, 2018, 03:17:39 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 04, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
I don't know what happened, Lord Templar. Everyone in the city just got in line and walked out the gates and threw themselves off the shield wall....

Krath Damn northy mindworms are at it again!  Release the Gaj!

Are you sure that will help the situation my lord?

Not at all! but at least we'll get to say that WE did the killing!

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on July 04, 2018, 03:38:43 PM
Listen is a really important RP skill, especially for city-bound merchants IMHO. Scan is too honestly. I'd end up feeling like inattentive custom crafting slave labour I think, can't see anything secretly happening (no hemotes because no scan or watch) or hear anything secretly said (no tables/doors/whispers because no listen).

I mean that's why it's more fun to whisper your plans than way them right? Got to give someone a chance to hear...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on July 04, 2018, 04:50:35 PM
Really happy to see custom crafting turn into its own sub guild. I always felt like too many merchants turned into Custom Craft Machines, especially when people saw they were around for 30-50 days played.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on July 04, 2018, 07:52:14 PM
Yes, now people who enjoy custom crafting a variety of things are instead shoe-horned into a very small, tight set of main guild choices. Woohoo. Unless you're a social/builder type player, in which case these changes just feel like yet another neuter to the things that are enjoyable about the game.

It feels like the more varied /more interesting variety of stealth, combat, and even crafting roles could have been accomplished without a huge nerf toward people who enjoy putting things in the game. But hey, I'm admittedly depressed and bitter, since the change to the guild structure was something I was seriously looking forward to until it came with a simultaneous, bad change to something I really enjoy (custom crafting). It feels like magicker change 2.0 in that regard: hey let's put in cool options and then take out these other things people really like.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 04, 2018, 08:15:40 PM
I don't remember exactly what thread it was but staff was very specific about the listen skill and the merchant guild that if you choose the right subguild you could be both master crafter and master spy and that combination was just too OP.  In fact, I'm fairly certain the new classes.were structured so that the master spy/merchant would no longer be an available option.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 12:39:11 AM
...that sounds more like an issue with having a subguild that allowed you to tack perfect stealth onto any class, rather than an issue with merchant.

I always thought Merchant + Slipknife and Merchant + Outdoorsman were ridiculous combos, but the problem is Slipknife and Outdoorsman giving you all the skills you need to be competent in their domain. Compare to the combat extended subguilds.

Maybe once the subclasses are rebalanced staff will feel comfortable taking another look at the heavy mercantile.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 01:21:33 AM
Can we get an update to help mastercrafting that explains the new rules in one place? I'm still not clear exactly on it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: stoicreader on July 05, 2018, 09:12:33 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 05, 2018, 01:21:33 AM
Can we get an update to help mastercrafting that explains the new rules in one place? I'm still not clear exactly on it.

I agree its confounding.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on July 05, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Friendly reminder that we all get to decide how we spend our free time.  This includes people who spend their's being staff on the game.  I wouldn't expect anyone to play the game if they don't enjoy it - likewise I wouldn't expect anyone to work on staff if they aren't enjoying it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 05, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: nessalin on July 05, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Friendly reminder that we all get to decide how we spend our free time.  This includes people who spend their's being staff on the game.  I wouldn't expect anyone to play the game if they don't enjoy it - likewise I wouldn't expect anyone to work on staff if they aren't enjoying it.

As staff, a new initiative was proposed in the form of new Classes.
Within that initiative, a policy regarding custom crafting was re-worked, but never finalized.
Rather than finalize that policy, the class initiative was rolled out, with classes/subclasses built around the proposed changes.
Players are now confused because no guidance has been given.
Staff will submit the help files when someone decides that is how they will spend their free time.

Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?




Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Medena on July 05, 2018, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2018, 10:58:29 AM

Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

What the heck?

A mild and politely worded request for more information was expressed followed by a mild and polite reminder that staff are volunteers.  I am betting that an invective like this makes the staff feel a little less likely to want to spend their free time on the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 11:40:17 AM
With the new classes, a zero-karma subguild is offered that will allow you to custom craft any item that coincides with your crafting skills list. If you want to custom craft any item you must have this subguild (custom crafter) You no longer have to be master in the skill, you can submit a custom craft at any point.

I ask this sincerely, not to be snarky, even though it may sound that way. Did I miss something? This seems pretty straightforward to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 05, 2018, 11:59:08 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

Yes.  Yes.

Customer service and the customer experience aren't ethical obligations, even from organizations selling you a good or service, unless it is explicitly laid out in the contract that these are included in what is being sold to you.  I'm sure there are folks that have such a sense of entitlement that they believe they are, but that does not make it so.

I've been busy because my job and family take priority, but I will get to stuff when I can.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 12:28:23 PM
I haven't suicided yet! But now when I look at options, I can no longer see the same choices that were there previous. Half-giant has disappeared from race, and many of the magicker subclasses I could see before are gone, as well as some of the extended subguilds. It seems random, because some are still the same costs. It does say I have max karma, so maybe there is something not right here?

I mean, max karma for me....

Edit: Not random. As the others below stated, karma does not match karma options. Do I have to die first? Cuz I will. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 05, 2018, 12:51:35 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9ca519d3bab3b3d1a897a11c024d8c8d/tenor.gif?itemid=5927629)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on July 05, 2018, 02:52:35 PM
Anyway, I'm digging the new classes. While I was very wary of this sweeping of a change, there's several which actually support my playstyles much better than before. Some provide everything I want (crafting AND wilderness) before I ever even add a subguild.

The missing documentation is just going to take time to come together. I get that. But I'd like to ask, because I don't use Discord, that any big explanations of how stuff works which isn't yet in a helpfile maybe get cross-posted to the forum for posterity?  Doesn't even have to be done by staff ... just let the players pick it up there and bring it back here.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on July 05, 2018, 02:57:03 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 05, 2018, 12:28:23 PM
I haven't suicided yet! But now when I look at options, I can no longer see the same choices that were there previous. Half-giant has disappeared from race, and many of the magicker subclasses I could see before are gone, as well as some of the extended subguilds. It seems random, because some are still the same costs. It does say I have max karma, so maybe there is something not right here?

I mean, max karma for me....

I'm having the same issue. Pressing O tells me that I have 2/2 karma, but I can only see the 0 and 1-karma options on my list.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on July 05, 2018, 03:15:52 PM
Yup, My race and guild options are not matching my karma level at all either.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on July 05, 2018, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: X-D on July 05, 2018, 03:15:52 PM
Yup, My race and guild options are not matching my karma level at all either.

Yup.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on July 05, 2018, 04:50:59 PM
Same here.  Mine was correct yesterday. incorrect today.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 06, 2018, 10:37:38 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
Quote from: nessalin on July 05, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Friendly reminder that we all get to decide how we spend our free time.  This includes people who spend their's being staff on the game.  I wouldn't expect anyone to play the game if they don't enjoy it - likewise I wouldn't expect anyone to work on staff if they aren't enjoying it.

As staff, a new initiative was proposed in the form of new Classes.
Within that initiative, a policy regarding custom crafting was re-worked, but never finalized.
Rather than finalize that policy, the class initiative was rolled out, with classes/subclasses built around the proposed changes.
Players are now confused because no guidance has been given.
Staff will submit the help files when someone decides that is how they will spend their free time.

Would anyone accept this behavior from anywhere else? Would this behavior be ethically acceptable from any organization providing a good or service?

With regards to providing a good service, I highly doubt that the game is here to provide ANY service though I speak only for myself and not staff, and from a non-staff member looking at staff and what is accomplished I am compelled to say that we as players have to be patient and deal with the curves of the road ahead.  We as players need to understand that just like some players, staff have real lives that need attending, and some things have to take a place on the back burner.  So let's all just deal with it constructively, be patient, and give the staff some space to accomplish the many things that they have to, in the order they see fit.  It could be construed as a service, but generally services reap rewards that benefit the servicer as well as the servicee.   I personally appreciate all the hard work that goes into the game by the staff, and understand that I am owed nothing, but instead owe a few attributes to the game and player base, such as: contributing as high of a level of RP as possible, being patient, reporting bugs and problems I see in a passive manner, thus as a player I am not entitled to anything, but granted it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on July 06, 2018, 10:38:56 AM
I am looking into this.  Seems that fixing one bug did indeed introduce another! 

I hope to have this resolved shortly.  Your options are still correct they are just displaying in properly.

I'll update here when I have more information and an expected resolution time.  Thanks for letting us know!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 06, 2018, 11:11:33 AM
As a general note, I find it distasteful that its assumed I don't appreciate the work staff do, just because I hold them to a higher standard and expect more from them. Nobody has a monopoly on "appreciating" work.

Also related:
With the display bug as it is right now, if I were to make a new character while I am at zero karma, but the system is displaying 1karma options, could I make a character with the 1karma option? Does the system know I can't select it, and its JUST a display bug?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BrainySmurf on July 06, 2018, 11:44:50 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 06, 2018, 11:11:33 AM
As a general note, I find it distasteful that its assumed I don't appreciate the work staff do, just because I hold them to a higher standard and expect more from them. Nobody has a monopoly on "appreciating" work.

Well, I tried to bite my tongue on this and failed. So I apologize in advance for the derail, because this has nothing to do with release notes:

Your distaste is noted, Riev. It would be an extraordinary effort on everyone's part to fail to note your distaste.

The staff and playerbase, I believe, can be excused for making this distasteful assumption, however. Every scrap of evidence you offer via your forum post and discord communiques is supportive of a systematic and thorough lack of appreciation, shot through with a persistent vein of entitlement. 90% of your input into everything is derisive, both in content as well as language. You do not come across as a martyr draped on the altar of 'holding staff to a higher standard'. You come across as an unceasing font of vitriol and bile directed at both fellow players and the staff, determined to attribute to malice that which is easily explained by differing priorities.

Maybe that's presumptive of me. But if you find the assumptions of your fellow players and staff distasteful, perhaps you should reflect on the portion of the interface you are responsible for, rather than insinuating that you're being treated unfairly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Scrumpkin on July 06, 2018, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 06, 2018, 11:11:33 AM
As a general note, I find it distasteful that its assumed I don't appreciate the work staff do, just because I hold them to a higher standard and expect more from them. Nobody has a monopoly on "appreciating" work.

Also related:
With the display bug as it is right now, if I were to make a new character while I am at zero karma, but the system is displaying 1karma options, could I make a character with the 1karma option? Does the system know I can't select it, and its JUST a display bug?

I was not assuming anything or saying anything about you Riev, I was merely stating my opinion on how I look at things.  Never once did I include that you do not appreciate, nor point a finger at you.  On the other hand, I see all the input that you give in the forums, and I have played under you, and I highly think that you are far more beneficial in anything that you do, or discuss.  Even if it's bringing up something I don't agree with, I'm comfortable doing it because I know I will get a good discussion.  That's why we have these discussions I would assume, so don't get any distaste, please.   :P
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on July 06, 2018, 11:49:56 AM
Agree with both of the last posts. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on July 06, 2018, 01:29:14 PM
The problem is fixed for me now. Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 06, 2018, 01:50:21 PM
I had the same problem with the karma options list, I asked about it last night and was assured it'd be investigated.

I just checked, and it's all fixed now, less than 15 hours later. Given that even people on the other side of the world has experienced "typical sleep-time" at some point within the last 15 hours, and everyone in the USA experienced MOST of their 6-8 hours of sleep in the last 15 hours, I'd say they investigated and fixed it in damned good time.

Thanks!

Love,
Lizzie ("i can haz karmas?") the Irk
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 06, 2018, 02:14:14 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on July 06, 2018, 01:50:21 PM
I had the same problem with the karma options list, I asked about it last night and was assured it'd be investigated.

I just checked, and it's all fixed now, less than 15 hours later. Given that even people on the other side of the world has experienced "typical sleep-time" at some point within the last 15 hours, and everyone in the USA experienced MOST of their 6-8 hours of sleep in the last 15 hours, I'd say they investigated and fixed it in damned good time.

Thanks!

Love,
Lizzie ("i can haz karmas?") the Irk


+1 Thanks a lot staff. You guys spend a lot of personal, unpaid time to keep my main source of entertainment going and it is appreciated!

Oh yea. Anyone notice that the heavy crafters -start- with armormaking? I like that!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on August 12, 2018, 05:17:46 PM
-Coded a new race.


Hmmmm....
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on August 12, 2018, 05:22:23 PM
Heeeell yeah!
Nessalin is sneaky! Hid something pretty epic in.

Granted he used toss to distract us and that in itself is pretty epic
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 12, 2018, 05:30:43 PM
THE UPDATES RECENTLY HAVE BEEN AMAZING

GOOD LORD.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on August 12, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
Is there a help file on this race? When do we learn about this race? Why didn't he put this at the top of the changes? Why wasn't this bolded like the others. WE NEEDS TA KNOW!

Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 12, 2018, 05:30:43 PM
THE UPDATES RECENTLY HAVE BEEN AMAZING

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on August 12, 2018, 07:16:00 PM
Quote from: Pale Horse on August 12, 2018, 05:17:46 PM
-Coded a new race.


Hmmmm....

Yes, the Githillot lives!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on August 13, 2018, 03:31:11 AM
AH yes, the Super Killing Machines are now a race.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on August 13, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
And the muls are what? Chopped liver?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RabidMuffins on August 15, 2018, 10:18:15 AM
Is toss considered aggressive, though? I don't want to throw something silly and get ganked by soldiers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: sleepyhead on August 15, 2018, 12:09:55 PM
I love that you actually added toss! Beautiful!

I'm wondering if it's possible to toss something "IN" or "OUT" as well as in a cardinal direction as noted in the helpfile. If not, this would probably be a pretty important addition if possible, since a lot of caves are "in".

On a less important note, it'd be cool if you could toss something into a fall room to test depth. If you toss something into a room, maybe it could make a noise when it hits the ground that is audible with a (wilderness? any?) listen check from the room you threw it from. The more rooms down the bottom is, the longer it takes to hit the ground and the softer the noise is, until at a certain depth you can't hear it at all. This seems like it might be a bit tricky to code, but it's just a thought!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on August 15, 2018, 02:14:56 PM
Quote from: sleepyhead on August 15, 2018, 12:09:55 PM
I'm wondering if it's possible to toss something "IN" or "OUT" as well as in a cardinal direction as noted in the helpfile. If not, this would probably be a pretty important addition if possible, since a lot of caves are "in".

Coded for next release, yes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on August 27, 2018, 03:30:13 AM
The August 12 (26th edition) is by far my favorite one yet!

So many awesome crucial day to day points touched on and revamped for the bettererrr.

Kudos to all the staff who worked on this, The Shade I'm looking at you for this one.  (large applause)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JustAnotherGuy on September 05, 2018, 03:55:12 PM
Really love all the changes I am seeing, but I'm not certain I agree with the change hands allowing a free attack when changing from one hand to two hands on a weapon, and back and forth.  Now swapping two weapons or something a bit more challenging, I could see that offering a free attack.  It's a normal combat maneuver in fighting to move a weapon from one hand to holding it in two hands.  As someone that has taken sword fighting instruction, it's normal practice, it is apart of the skill of sword fighting.  If I was holding a weapon in both hands and trying to swap those... that would be stupid difficult.  Swapping a shield from one arm to another, that's difficult. Moving a weapon from one hand to another, not so much.

Just some feedback, but I love everything else. :D  Thank you for the great work
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on September 05, 2018, 04:47:26 PM
Quote from: JustAnotherGuy on September 05, 2018, 03:55:12 PM
Really love all the changes I am seeing, but I'm not certain I agree with the change hands allowing a free attack when changing from one hand to two hands on a weapon, and back and forth.  Now swapping two weapons or something a bit more challenging, I could see that offering a free attack.  It's a normal combat maneuver in fighting to move a weapon from one hand to holding it in two hands.  As someone that has taken sword fighting instruction, it's normal practice, it is apart of the skill of sword fighting.  If I was holding a weapon in both hands and trying to swap those... that would be stupid difficult.  Swapping a shield from one arm to another, that's difficult. Moving a weapon from one hand to another, not so much.

Just some feedback, but I love everything else. :D  Thank you for the great work

I just picture the scene from The Princess Bride when they were switching from left handed to right handed.  They had to disengage and taunt while doing so... It wasn't an easy manuver.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on September 05, 2018, 05:24:06 PM
Please add "taunt" command, branched from "threaten." Invoked like tell; acts like expel.

> taunt amos Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!
You jeer at the tall, muscular man, in sirihish,
  "Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!"
The tall, muscular man reels back, staggered by your taunt.
You seize the opportunity and slash the tall, muscular man very hard on the superego.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: shadeoux on September 05, 2018, 06:04:52 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on September 05, 2018, 05:24:06 PM
Please add "taunt" command, branched from "threaten." Invoked like tell; acts like expel.

> taunt amos Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!
You jeer at the tall, muscular man, in sirihish,
  "Yo' momma was a desert rat! Yo' daddy smelt of kzul-berries!"
The tall, muscular man reels back, staggered by your taunt.
You seize the opportunity and slash the tall, muscular man very hard on the superego.

Brytta Always has the great ideas...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2018, 11:28:47 AM
Did the changes to the existing subclasses also get implemented?

AKA

Move Slipknife to 2 karma?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on October 16, 2018, 11:33:16 AM
Roughrider got a good laugh from me, in a good way. Nice work as always.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 16, 2018, 11:44:31 AM
The update refers to putting in the new extended subclasses.  You can't pick them in chargen yet, and no changes to existing subclasses yet.

Rough riders ride rough stock. Or charge up hills in Cuba.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Decameron on October 16, 2018, 11:46:41 AM
Do Rough Rider's have the ability to open up closed shops?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 16, 2018, 11:53:03 AM
Not sure I get the reference.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Decameron on October 16, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThlhSnRk21E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThlhSnRk21E)

Sigh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on October 16, 2018, 12:33:34 PM
Dig the new sub guilds. It's cool to see a sub guild that gets wilderness quit, for instance.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on October 16, 2018, 12:34:07 PM
Thank you for honoring Canada's legalization of pot (tomorrow) by extending the shelf life of spice!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on October 16, 2018, 12:43:39 PM
Not to be a negative nancy, but is Wastelander just shitty Grebber but can forage food and wilderness quit?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on October 16, 2018, 12:52:24 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 16, 2018, 12:43:39 PM
Not to be a negative nancy, but is Wastelander just shitty Grebber but can forage food and wilderness quit?

Grebbers can forage in both the city and wilderness, and can't forage food or quit in the wilderness. There seem to be trade offs, and wilderness quit for some classes is worth it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 16, 2018, 01:01:25 PM
That's actually a solid question.


Which of the new classes can forage food? I dont mean subguilds, I mean main guilds.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 16, 2018, 01:12:50 PM
We must disagree on what a solid question is, since to me it means something that can't be answered by a couple of minutes of looking at the help files.

Under Abilities, the class help files say stuff like:

Can forage food in the wilderness.
Can forage scraps of food in cities.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 16, 2018, 01:16:26 PM
... Oh


Well. Well. Umh.

That requires me to read things. That's rather unfair, unjust, and downright diabolical. You should be ashamed, Brokkr.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on October 16, 2018, 01:17:20 PM
I am both heartened to see new subguilds rolled out with some SOLID utility, but saddened to see them karma gated.

Is there any progress at all on fixing the karma regeneration bug? I've been stuck at 0 ever since the release.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bigbruiser on October 16, 2018, 01:19:05 PM
The release notes said they fixed the Karma regen.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on October 16, 2018, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: Bigbruiser on October 16, 2018, 01:19:05 PM
The release notes said they fixed the Karma regen.

WHAT? I missed it!

ETA: Aha! Yet it didn't honor "time served". I'm still at zero.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 16, 2018, 01:23:23 PM
Consider sending in a request about it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on October 16, 2018, 01:25:39 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 16, 2018, 01:23:23 PM
Consider sending in a request about it?

Yeah. Time for another one, it seems. Quickly, before I die.

(For the record, this is my third request on this since the change went in. I know how the request system works.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 16, 2018, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on October 16, 2018, 12:43:39 PM
Not to be a negative nancy, but is Wastelander just shitty Grebber but can forage food and wilderness quit?

Dear Negative Nancy,

They share exactly 1 skill, direction sense. They also share one ability, to forage for food in the wilderness (note Wastelanders don't have the forage skill, it just allows your forage skill you get from your main class to find food).

So I dunno?  It probably depends on which things you value in a character.

As a note, somehow some of the help files meant for after skill changes to subclasses got released early.  So like with Grebber, right now they can only hunt/forage for food in the wilderness.  But that will change to be both city/wilderness, like the helpfile says.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 16, 2018, 01:28:05 PM
That fix went in 3 hours ago :) Good luck!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: yousuff on October 16, 2018, 01:57:22 PM
Some of the subguilds seem to have a bit of overlap. Shame they're all karma locked though. Just as a note, since karma is supposed to lock away powerful characters how are the likes of swordsman/aggrressor/lancer/whatever exceptionally powerful? Tack one onto a class that doesn't get them (a crafting one) and... You still have a subpar fighting character. I mean from a coded point of view, is swordsman etc.. really as hard to trust players with as say, a krathi or whiran?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on October 16, 2018, 02:09:36 PM
I don't mind overlap. It just feels like we're on our way to a point system where you build your own character. :)

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on October 16, 2018, 02:30:52 PM
Quote from: yousuff on October 16, 2018, 01:57:22 PM
Some of the subguilds seem to have a bit of overlap. Shame they're all karma locked though. Just as a note, since karma is supposed to lock away powerful characters how are the likes of swordsman/aggrressor/lancer/whatever exceptionally powerful? Tack one onto a class that doesn't get them (a crafting one) and... You still have a subpar fighting character. I mean from a coded point of view, is swordsman etc.. really as hard to trust players with as say, a krathi or whiran?

Dune trader/swordsman, adventurer/swordsman, and craftsperson/swordsman all seem like reasonable 'nakki-based choices for a crafter who doesn't want to just sit around an apartment all the time.  The only question is how well advanced slashing/parry works with the base O/D.  I'm guessing it's at least enough to not get instagibbed.

Definitely not as powerful as a magick subguild, especially since it's really going to be a niche pick.  It's either "crafters who kinda want to fight" or "raiders who want people to think they're fighters out of the box and don't mind sacrificing basically an entire subguild pick for a single skill."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Decameron on October 16, 2018, 03:03:57 PM
For those too lazy ..

Master Woodworker

With a knack for carving, polishing and otherwise working wood, the Master Woodworker is capable of crafting the medium into different forms. They can prove to be talented salesmen, when seeking to make a profit from their creativity and hard work. They are capable at felling logs to support themselves and breaking them into smaller pieces to be more easily worked on. Master Woodworkers begin play with skill in haggle, axe making, club making, woodworking and lumberjacking. They can achieve mastery in axe making, club making and woodworking, allowing them to custom craft these types of items. They can achieve an advanced level in haggling and lumberjacking.
Notes:
The Master Woodworker subguild costs 1 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Marksman

With uncannily good aim, the Marksman are skilled with all types of ranged weapons. They are able to practice their craft more easily than some others as they can make their own ammunition. Those among them who excel learn to craft their weapons, finely tuned to the needs of their owner. Marksen begin play with archery, blowgun use, crossbow use, sling use and fletchery. They can achieve an advanced level in archery, blowgun use, crossbow use and sling use. They can achieve mastery in fletchery, and by practicing this can learn to craft their own weapons with bow making, achieving mastery in this area as well. They are able to custom craft both their weapons and ammunition, creating pieces tuned to the needs of the owner.
Notes:
The Marksman subclass costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Roughrider - D - M - X

Born with an innate rapport with riding beasts of all kinds, the Roughrider is well versed in travelling and caring for these beasts. Ride or die. They are known to be able to lead a string of a couple of mounts that they have tamed themselves into the cities for sale. What you really want? Combat from atop their mounts is not unknown to them, and they can charge their opponents to place them at a disadvantage. Money, Power, RESPECT. Roughriders begin play with skill in ride and charge. Shut 'em down, open up shop. They can achieve an advanced level in ride and charge. You think this is a game? They can hitch two mounts and those amongst them skilled at riding can tame appropriate beasts to use as mounts.
Notes:
The Roughrider subguild costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Wastelander

Used to making do without the trappings of civilization, the Wastelander is able to live in the wilderness for extended periods of time. They are known to be able to navigate the storms whipping through the deserts. They can sustain themselves with food that they find while foraging. Most know at least some Bendune, the common tongue of the most commonly encountered tribal cultures in the wastes. Wastelanders begin play with direction sense and bendune. They can achieve mastery of Bendune and an advanced level of direction sense. They can forage for food in the wilderness. They can make camp (quit) in wilderness room.
Example(s):
The Wastelander subguild costs 1 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Swordsman

Possessing a background in the use of a sword or other cutting weapons, the Swordsman is skilled with their weapon in ways many are not. They are adepts at the back and forth of weapon play, learning to gracefully parry as well as return a deflected attack with a riposte. Watching their opponent for signs of the next attack is something they are well versed in as well. Swordsmen begin play with slashing weapons, parry and watch. They can achieve an advanced level in slashing weapons, parry and watch. When they are experienced in parrying their opponents strikes, they can learn to riposte them as well, up to an advanced level.
Notes:
The Swordsman subguild costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).

Reaver

Possessing a background in the use of an axe or other chopping weapons, the Reaver is skilled with their weapon in ways many are not. They launch brutal attacks that damage the shields and armor of their opponents. They are versed in attacking the weapons of those they fight as well, disarming them to gain an advantage. This offensive orientation towards the protection of their opponents has taught them how to defend with a shield, as well as how to repair armor once it has been damaged. Reavers begin play with chopping weapons, hack, disarm, shield use and armor repair. They can achieve an advanced level in chopping weapons, hack, disarm, shield use and armor repair.
Notes:
The Reaver subguild costs 2 temporary karma point (which will be regenerated over time).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 16, 2018, 03:12:52 PM
I feel like swordsman should get something to do with dual wield, just comparing it to reaver. I do not however have any idea how strong reposte is, maybe it's as good as having disarm and hack.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on October 16, 2018, 03:54:30 PM
Also these dubguilds don't start with advanced do they? Just the ability to get to advanced.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on October 16, 2018, 03:59:09 PM
They fixed my karma bug like 20 minutes after I put in the request. Awesome. :)

So ... what is "advanced" anyway?

On the point system, there's a lot of difference between "just turned advanced" and "at the top end of advanced".

I keep looking at the main guild "scout" compared to "stalker" and both get advanced, but clearly scout is probably the better fighter. I'd like to know HOW high in advanced the various things get.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cnemus on October 16, 2018, 04:07:02 PM
Discussing the changes to subguilds and mentions of relative position in the skill tiers. The table on page 4 posted by Brokkr is particularly useful:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53906.msg1017057.html#msg1017057

For the general discussion of the new classes:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/board,144.0.html

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on October 16, 2018, 08:10:09 PM
lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2018, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 16, 2018, 08:10:09 PM
lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless

@Brokkr
Shouldn't Roughrider also get TRAMPLE http://armageddon.org/help/view/Trample

It's definitely underpowered, IMO.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on October 16, 2018, 10:13:19 PM
By using SCIENCE I can determine that only two classes stand to actually reasonably gain from being a roughrider.

Adventurer and Dune Trader.

Both of these have DS so can actually ride around reliably but lack charge, so picking this subguild is useful for them. They already both have advanced ride so they're really just paying 2 karma points for charge on a class not designed for combat.

Unless we're going to argue that being able to hitch extra mounts is god-mode now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on October 17, 2018, 12:07:05 AM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 16, 2018, 08:10:09 PM

Brah, probably that came off harsher than you intended but it sounded to me like you were trying to be insulting. You could say exactly the same thing better (IMO) with a slight shift of tone--it's super effective:

QuoteI have some doubts about Roughrider.

High riding skill is only useful in the wilderness, but without direction sense wilderness play is dangerous if not suicidal.

Nor does it synergize well with other classes, since those classes with direction sense already have high ride skill and probably charge.

Edit: and a cost of 2 CGP seems excessive, given the limitations I've pointed out and relative to the very high power and utility of the magic subguilds available for the same cost.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 17, 2018, 01:00:53 AM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2018, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 16, 2018, 08:10:09 PM
lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless


@Brokkr
Shouldn't Roughrider also get TRAMPLE http://armageddon.org/help/view/Trample

It's definitely underpowered, IMO.

You really haven't looked at the helpfiles very closely.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: teacup on October 17, 2018, 01:51:30 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 17, 2018, 01:00:53 AM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2018, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 16, 2018, 08:10:09 PM
lmao @ roughrider

why would anyone ever want high riding but no DS, it's not like riding is worthwhile in cities

and it can't even be used in synergy with any other classes because all classes that have DS already have super high ride and probably charge

Edit: why would this be 2rpp it's on par with magick subguilds but is worthless


@Brokkr
Shouldn't Roughrider also get TRAMPLE http://armageddon.org/help/view/Trample

It's definitely underpowered, IMO.

You really haven't looked at the helpfiles very closely.

The helpfiles aren't exactly that easy to read. If I go to Subguild on the Website there isn't even information on Roughrider or the others mentioned in Release Notes because these are in Extended Subguilds which you don't know from the post by Nessalin. Not super easy to even find. Unless you know that trample/charge are for expert riders you would not know that Roughriders come with it. This is not clear to new players like me. Why does this cost 2 karma?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 17, 2018, 02:28:19 AM
Code Release - New subclasses, gender and spice aging changes.
--Nessalin

Pulled this from the website news, what's this about gender? I didn't see anything about it in the release notes forum entry.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on October 17, 2018, 02:48:08 AM
Edit: look at me not being an ass.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bogre on October 17, 2018, 02:52:17 AM
The whole design of DS is that wilderness guides / scout types get it. It's designed so that someone with that utility can be utilized to guide a party of thuggy bruiser types around.

So it can give your Enforcer/Infiltrator Fighter/Soldier some ability to be heavy cavalry.

It can also break open charge for your wilderness tiered folks without having to branch it.

I think it'd be useful in that sense, but not sure its worth 2 cgp rather than 1.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on October 17, 2018, 05:32:55 AM
Quote from: Bogre on October 17, 2018, 02:52:17 AM
The whole design of DS is that wilderness guides / scout types get it. It's designed so that someone with that utility can be utilized to guide a party of thuggy bruiser types around.

So it can give your Enforcer/Infiltrator Fighter/Soldier some ability to be heavy cavalry.

It can also break open charge for your wilderness tiered folks without having to branch it.

I think it'd be useful in that sense, but not sure its worth 2 cgp rather than 1.

there's already subguilds that give you super high riding + DS + other perks

grebber: hunt, ride, forage, direction sense, climb, search - 1 karma

RR: ride + charge - 2 karma

i'll admit charge is pretty nifty but it isn't worth sacrificing DS for (plus other skills) ontop of being a rpp higher
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on October 17, 2018, 06:01:07 AM
Yeah, the "system" they used to decide the value of ESGs was whether or not they had any combat skills in them. It was discussed in another thread.

If they did include one or more combat skills, they made them 2 karma. I'm not a fan, personally. I'd like to see all non-magic ESGs be 1 karma. Enough to where you can't spam ESG characters, but not so much that ESGs aren't attractive.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 17, 2018, 09:19:30 AM
It does seem there is something a bit off about the cost of ext. subs. I admit I have only tried one of the new class/subclass combos IG, but I'm finding it more frustrating than before picking a subclass that mixes well with the new classes. Seems like the majority of skills overlap. I've managed to find some very good combinations, but it's rare. One point of the new classes (according to staff) was to make the classes more focused in what they can do, but it seems like some of them are just all over the place when it comes to skills.

EDIT: nevermind. I take it all back. After reviewing the subguilds and extended subguilds (subclasses and extended subclasses I mean) There is more versatility than I thought. I think I 'm going to make a table of the classes and then write down each subclass that would work well with it
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Insigne on October 18, 2018, 06:28:42 AM
Very little has actually changed from the original spreadsheet (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53906.msg1016930.html#msg1016930). The trend between the new subclasses still seems to be that combat and utility skills max out at advanced. Brokkr has also said this earlier in this thread:

Quote from: Brokkr on October 16, 2018, 11:44:31 AM... and no changes to existing subclasses yet.

Does this mean that the changes detailed out in the original spreadsheet will eventually be pushed out?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on October 18, 2018, 08:11:13 AM
Quote from: Insigne on October 18, 2018, 06:28:42 AM
Very little has actually changed from the original spreadsheet (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53906.msg1016930.html#msg1016930). The trend between the new subclasses still seems to be that combat and utility skills max out at advanced. Brokkr has also said this earlier in this thread:

Quote from: Brokkr on October 16, 2018, 11:44:31 AM... and no changes to existing subclasses yet.

Does this mean that the changes detailed out in the original spreadsheet will eventually be pushed out?
There's no master anything (except crafting skills in some cases) on the subclasses now.
Also scan has been added to a few. That's just what I've noticed. Been like that a while, I forget when I noticed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on October 19, 2018, 03:07:18 AM
Quote from: Namino on October 16, 2018, 10:13:19 PM
By using SCIENCE I can determine that / Very little has actually changed / Edit: look at me not being an ass.


Thats what I've gathered so far from this convo ;)

Ok I as well will stop being an Ass now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: number13 on October 19, 2018, 03:27:57 AM
Not a suggestion, just an idle thought -- it would more interesting if your main guild was the one where skills were capped at Advanced, with your subguild providing skills capped at Master.

As if to say, "I'm generally pretty good at all things X, but really stupid good specifically at Y."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: yousuff on October 19, 2018, 03:38:19 AM
Quote from: number13 on October 19, 2018, 03:27:57 AM
Not a suggestion, just an idle thought -- it would more interesting if your main guild was the one where skills were capped at Advanced, with your subguild providing skills capped at Master.

As if to say, "I'm generally pretty good at all things X, but really stupid good specifically at Y."
This too is a tasty thought.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 03:54:42 PM
god no. the main class is supposed to be what you excel at - it's that area of abilities that you focus on that you typically would be better at. subclasses are supposed to be more like hobby skills to round yourself out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on October 19, 2018, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 03:54:42 PM
god no. the main class is supposed to be what you excel at - it's that area of abilities that you focus on that you typically would be better at. subclasses are supposed to be more like hobby skills to round yourself out.

Main Class: M&Ms
Subclass: Skittles
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:01:27 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 03:54:42 PM
god no. the main class is supposed to be what you excel at - it's that area of abilities that you focus on that you typically would be better at. subclasses are supposed to be more like hobby skills to round yourself out.

adding to this that newbies are already arbitrarily punished enough by being locked out of mundane ESG's, if i was a new player and saw i could only play literal trash until i'd played for at least 5 years then i probably wouldn't stick around
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Akariel on October 19, 2018, 04:14:41 PM
It's also fairly uncommon for an active new player to go more than a year without requesting (and getting) a karma review to push them to 1 karma.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on October 19, 2018, 04:14:56 PM
Yea. This would be true only if regular classes couldn't reach the same levels of power that esg's could reach, and most certainly they can. In other words, I can be just as powerful in a role with 0 karma as I could with a karma class, it would just take me longer to get there. Having a magick or esg is helpful, but only if your PC can last a very long time, which typically coincides with the amount of karma you have gained.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

not having an ESG is a handicap atm, if the system was changed so classes were the lesser caps and subguilds were the only way to achieve mastery then yes new players would be stuck with literal trash

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on October 19, 2018, 04:59:04 PM
Quotethe majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

Oh, visible skill levels, how I -hate- you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on October 19, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 19, 2018, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 19, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.


climb, steal, sleight of hand, sneak, hide, scan. Would probably be the skills that people need to be certain to have maximized. Like Brokkr said in another thread. Not a good idea to go climbing around, without making sure you have a no-fail climb.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 05:05:37 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 19, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

if you genuinely, unironically believe this then you've never seen how much of a difference a neckshot makes to a regular shot
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on October 19, 2018, 05:09:06 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 05:05:37 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 19, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.

if you genuinely, unironically believe this then you've never seen how much of a difference a neckshot makes to a regular shot

That argument has no validity on an argument about "The majority" of skills. Your words, not mine.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on October 19, 2018, 05:13:25 PM
What kind of weak bitch doesn't use steal until master? Smoke em if you got em
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bogre on October 19, 2018, 06:20:59 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 19, 2018, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Narf on October 19, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on October 19, 2018, 04:34:36 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 04:08:50 PM
you aren't playing literal trash, the esgs do not instantly make you god-tier.

the majority of skills on armageddon are worthless unless they're (master)

This is horrifically incorrect. There are a tiny handful of skills that get you into too much trouble for failure to use without a good chance of success, but that success can be guaranteed with attributes and an advanced skill.

The vast majority of skills are useful at lower levels, and there are a significant number of skills where master level is more of a vanity medal than anything else.


climb, steal, sleight of hand, sneak, hide, scan. Would probably be the skills that people need to be certain to have maximized. Like Brokkr said in another thread. Not a good idea to go climbing around, without making sure you have a no-fail climb.

Not really. All of the above skills work at lower levels than master. And for the most part, you're getting to success nearly every time by the time you reach advanced.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: evilcabbage on October 19, 2018, 06:27:25 PM
climb at advanced is basically nofail climb in all but the hardest of climbing scenarios, so...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on October 19, 2018, 07:06:12 PM
ITT:  a bunch of people who want thieves to fail and die.

Even at master sleight of hand, with egood elf agility at light encumbrance you'll fail latch and unlatch frequently.  Fails on door opens probably 1 out of 4, 1 out of 5.

Even at master steal, you will crit-fail under a certain circumstance, especially if you haven't committed item weights to memory and you accidentally try to yoink a weird 5-stone dagger.

At master scan, I never spotted another PC who wasn't a noob.  Known guild-sniffed infiltrators...never spotted them hiding, not even a shadow to try to watch.  I don't know who you're catching hiding, but they obviously aren't very good at it.  The weird thing about infiltrator hide seems to be that once they -get- hidden, they can beat scan, but they still seem to abjectly fail at getting hidden a fair percentage of the time, and they really suck at sneak+hiding.

Master climb is solid everywhere in Allanak, at least.

Low-advanced parry without base O/D is trash.  Enough to maaaaybe give you a chance to flee against a really good opponent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on October 19, 2018, 07:36:33 PM
I've utilized most of these skills to no end at advanced, on a character with high agi that I played for 50+ days.  ::) You need to be a bit more careful, but they're far from useless, or a death sentence.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on October 19, 2018, 07:43:34 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on October 19, 2018, 07:06:12 PM
At master scan, I never spotted another PC who wasn't a noob.

Maybe I'm just noob, then.

I've been spotted with master sneak/hide shadowing someone for 2 rooms with exceptional human agility, no heavy armor, easily managable encumbrance, and 5+ pieces of stealth gear. No, generally people wouldn't see me if I hide in a single location and never move. But I think I'm pretty OK with that dynamic.

Static master hide will beat master scan, but master scan seems to beat master sneak/hide if you try to move.

I imagine stats factor into this, as well. While it's quite common to see a sneak with prioritized agility, it's probably pretty rare for someone with master scan to have prioritized wisdom. So it's entirely possible that the problem between them is simply that, once bonus from stats is factored in, the person with stealth NORMALLY has a higher stat boost to the associated skill than the person with master scan.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on October 19, 2018, 07:45:27 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 19, 2018, 07:43:34 PM
easily managable encumbrance

there's one problem.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on October 19, 2018, 07:50:54 PM
Better hope you don't get dinged with elf strength so low that your starting gear has you at that
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on October 19, 2018, 08:00:45 PM
Well, elf agility balances that right out.

I kid... sort of.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on October 19, 2018, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 19, 2018, 07:45:27 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 19, 2018, 07:43:34 PM
easily managable encumbrance

there's one problem.

It was right at the cusp between light and EM, just on the EM side of that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on October 19, 2018, 08:18:51 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 19, 2018, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: Delirium on October 19, 2018, 07:45:27 PM
Quote from: Heade on October 19, 2018, 07:43:34 PM
easily managable encumbrance

there's one problem.

It was right at the cusp between light and EM, just on the EM side of that.

There is a rather substantial agility penalty that begins at easily manageable.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on October 29, 2018, 05:27:32 PM
Quote-Added new Subguilds with information from Brokkr
  -Master Woodworker
  -Marksman
  -Roughrider
  -Wastelander
  -Swordsman
  -Reaver

Any eta, on when these will be live?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 30, 2018, 12:42:33 PM
October 29th, 2018 (Monday)

Not a real code release, but subclass/extended subclass skills were adjusted today to new values I have been promising/threatening. I'll be double checking over the next couple of days to ensure the help files are all accurate to these changes.


Can this be clarified, maybe I'm not keeping up with the threads where this was discussed, but I have no idea what has been promised/threatened.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 30, 2018, 12:51:32 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on October 30, 2018, 12:42:33 PM...

Can this be clarified, maybe I'm not keeping up with the threads where this was discussed, but I have no idea what has been promised/threatened.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53906.msg1016930.html#msg1016930
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on October 31, 2018, 06:46:37 PM
I have the karma but don't have the new subclasses listed my available options list.  Release said something about regenerating karma.  How does one do that?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on October 31, 2018, 06:56:21 PM
Quote from: Cowboy on October 31, 2018, 06:46:37 PM
I have the karma but don't have the new subclasses listed my available options list.  Release said something about regenerating karma.  How does one do that?

I think something's gone weird with karma regeneration.

I haven't regenerated a karma point (from 0) in 45 days.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Potaje on October 31, 2018, 07:34:20 PM
I was reading through the various extended subguilds... I see that slipknife reads to have sap, specifically stated as delivering a knockout blow. However it does not mention sap in the skill listed in the doc, nor if or from what it branches.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on October 31, 2018, 08:12:00 PM
I looked at my guild/subguild options from my account menu and I do not see any of the new subclasses. I haven't used any karma as I haven't made a new character in quite a long time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on November 01, 2018, 09:35:56 AM
Should we put in a request if we have the karma but do not have the new subclasses listed as options available? or is it something that will resolve itself with time?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on November 01, 2018, 11:59:10 AM
You have to regenerate karma to see the options.  If your current karma is equal to your max karma, you won't regenerate karma and so won't see them in chargen.

If you don't see them and want to play one, drop a request in.  We can manually set something that kicks off the process that will add them so you can choose them.

Don't send in a request if you just want to see them but can't see them, without intending to play one.  The next time karma regens (after next time you spend it, or because current karma is lower than max currently) they will pop up.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cowboy on November 01, 2018, 02:46:52 PM
Thanks Brokkr.  When I need a new character, I'll put in a request.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on November 03, 2018, 01:03:00 PM
wtf I love Armageddon again now
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on November 03, 2018, 01:03:39 PM
Sounds gay, I'm in.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on November 03, 2018, 05:31:28 PM
Small mistake in the Help Androgynous helpfile, at the end is says nor female without having male before it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on November 04, 2018, 10:39:50 AM
is it just me, or does two handed not advance in skill, including since after the recent code change for how it is gained?

It still seems nowhere near the rate of other skills similar to it (i.e., dual wield)...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on November 04, 2018, 11:34:06 AM
I have heard others express that two handed doesn't appear to be improving despite other skills raising as expected over time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on November 04, 2018, 12:45:14 PM
In one of the threads Brokkr mentioned that combat classes would learn combat skills much more quickly, and non combat classes would learn them much more slowly.

In my brief experience with the new classes, this seems very true. Weapon skills seem to be go much slower than the style skills even, compared to the legacy classes anyways.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on November 04, 2018, 02:40:48 PM
It is hard to make a blanket statement with regards to the two handed skill and your individual experiences with it.

Some time ago, a change was made to make the relative levels of offense and defense between the two things fighting be taken into account for some of the combat skills.

This calculation was working backwards for the two handed skill, making it easier to learn against things that had a lower defense than you had offense, rather than the opposite of that, which is how it should have been.

Depending on your skills levels and what you were fighting, this change may make learning two handed easier or harder for you.  But at least it will reflect what was told players when that change was made.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on November 05, 2018, 07:04:07 PM
Two-handed seems to be skilling up just fine for me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on November 11, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
From Nessalin:
Quote-Upped character aliases to 100.
-Updated shout messages
  -When the wind gets loud the gender is removed from shout messages, becoming 'someone'
  -Those with high listen skill will have a chance to still determine gender
-When lighting arrows, people in the room will see that the arrow has been lit, not just the character lighting the arrow.

The alias change is great for folks who use them!

I love the detection of gender being dependent on the wind (and appropriate listen skill).

Arrows can be lit? Is this new? It's awesome regardless.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on November 12, 2018, 12:59:52 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on November 11, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
Arrows can be lit? Is this new? It's awesome regardless.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg958295.html#msg958295
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Marauder Moe on November 18, 2018, 02:31:56 PM
Quote-Addition of a new 3 karma magick subguild, more information to come soon.

How can you be so cruel, Nath?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on November 18, 2018, 02:37:47 PM
They're planning on how they're going to word it.

When was the last time a 3-karma subguild came out? A magick one? They got to really spike the punch this time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Seeker on November 18, 2018, 05:26:43 PM
I'm calling it:  Nilazi. 


Seeker
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on November 18, 2018, 05:33:25 PM
Well ya. If it doesn't start with a 'n' and end in a 'z' with 'ila' inbetween, I'm going to be disappointed.

Unless it's something better...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on November 19, 2018, 12:12:23 AM
Nah. Its the supper celf. With strength max of a human
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: zztri on November 19, 2018, 05:32:04 AM
Quote from: Dar on November 19, 2018, 12:12:23 AM
Nah. Its the supper celf. With strength max of a human

Supper c-elves are only 1 karma and they come with max skill level limit in skinning, forage and cooking. They don't have any change in attribute ranges.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 10, 2019, 05:33:31 PM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1029765.html#msg1029765

(Nessalin)
-Shops will now maintain their # of coins between reboots.
  (if a merchant has 50 coins when the game reboots they will have 50 coins when the game comes back up)


This is a Big change to the economy of the game

Question #1
Will the rate of selling items to virtual NPCs be increased?

Question #2
What is the intented change to player habits?

Question #3
Will there be an additional look at removing the limit of selling 5 of the same item to the NPC merchants?  And introducing a reduction in selling price point to the player as the merchant gains more inventory?  Or something similar?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 10, 2019, 05:41:01 PM
F in chat for the independents, boys.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 10, 2019, 05:52:58 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 10, 2019, 05:33:31 PM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1029765.html#msg1029765

(Nessalin)
-Shops will now maintain their # of coins between reboots.
  (if a merchant has 50 coins when the game reboots they will have 50 coins when the game comes back up)


This is a Big change to the economy of the game

Question #1
Will the rate of selling items to virtual NPCs be increased?

Question #2
What is the intented change to player habits?

Question #3
Will there be an additional look at removing the limit of selling 5 of the same item to the NPC merchants?  And introducing a reduction in selling price point to the player as the merchant gains more inventory?  Or something similar?

Yeah all of this.

I get trying to make the game realistic, but there has to be a balance. This hurts offpeakers more than anyone.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 10, 2019, 05:56:07 PM
Or, possibly helps them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on April 10, 2019, 06:22:34 PM
Quote from: Veselka on April 10, 2019, 05:56:07 PM
Or, possibly helps them.

No. It doesn't. There's already the epidemic of GMH members selling their clan crafts to every single shopkeeper for ridiculous amounts. I'm talking Kadian crafts made out of sapphire and bone worth three hundred, and similar examples for Salarr and Kurac.. Though I have to be honest, Kadius and Salarr already get the cream of the crop as far as crafts and sale-value. Ludicrously expensive clothing and jewelry, and then ludicrously expensive armor and weapons, and we all know that they are the ones whom flood the shops with their crafts, moreso than independents.

While previously, independents had an opportunity to sell some of their stockpiled things when GMH members were offline or otherwise disposed with mudsex, now, they must compete with people that have been logged out for 5+ IRL hours.

There absolutely must be another update to follow this one up, otherwise it's actually only going to perpetrate the bad economy structure in the game.

I think a good partial fix to this would be, to disallow clanned PCs from selling items, to their clan's shop. While unable to sell things in the traditional sense to the shop, you can still stock the items by giving them to the shopkeep and it will show up in the list (ive not tested this on every single shopkeeper so I don't know if it actually works like that, or if I experienced a fluke or two in the times that I have done it and it has worked).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on April 10, 2019, 06:37:26 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on April 10, 2019, 06:22:34 PM
I think a good partial fix to this would be, to disallow clanned PCs from selling items, to their clan's shop.

This is already the case, unless the rules have drastically changed in the last year or so.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on April 10, 2019, 06:56:03 PM
Quote from: valeria on April 10, 2019, 06:37:26 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on April 10, 2019, 06:22:34 PM
I think a good partial fix to this would be, to disallow clanned PCs from selling items, to their clan's shop.

This is already the case, unless the rules have drastically changed in the last year or so.

There's a rule in place to not extort your own shopkeepers, but you can still sell to them for the sake of putting something in the public eye and getting a chunk of coins in exchange (assuming you also kick some of those coins in the direction of your IC boss or the clan's bank account).

The proposed change is to make it so you absolutely CANNOT sell to your clan shopkeeper, even if you tried, and to only be able to give an item to the clan shopkeeper if you want it to be sold by them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 10, 2019, 07:18:22 PM
So, merchants already tended to run out of coin VERY quickly even when they got restocked at reboot. Now that they don't, I anticipate a huge wash of NPC poverty, unless the vnpc population starts buying at 20x their current rate.

There's a reason classic RPGs have merchants with infinite coins [Dragon Quest] or ones that restock every 24hrs [Elderscrolls, shoutout to my mudcrab merchant]. Because otherwise the economy isn't viable.

Save for a massive money push from the vnpcs to keep the shopkeeps solvent, this could hypothetically push player to player transaction, but the player numbers aren't what they once were. A player to player model only works in very large games like FFXIV, with thousands of buyers/shoppers concurrentky.

This isn't to mention that the most sought after items in player to player transaction tend to be clan crafts from GMH employees who already have a stable income via collecting their normal pay from paymasters. Those crafts are gated off from the people who rely on selling for their food.

This feels like six steps of playability back for one step of realism forward.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on April 10, 2019, 07:27:26 PM
Cool changes, I always thought the rush to shops after a reset was ridiculous. I imagine most shops will be running at a low threshold of coins now, which will make selling a few cheaper crafts more profitable than taking losses on big expensive items because they're worth more than the store had on hand.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on April 10, 2019, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on April 10, 2019, 07:27:26 PM
Cool changes, I always thought the rush to shops after a reset was ridiculous.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on April 10, 2019, 07:44:26 PM
Diamond spider nipple piercings caused this
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Derain on April 10, 2019, 08:17:10 PM
Bad thing is now nobody will be able to afford that 3500 coins scrab shell armor let alone the expensive shit. RIP independents
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on April 10, 2019, 08:56:08 PM
Seems like the coin thing is going to make turning a profit harder for merchant type folks, or at least the indy ones.

Not to mention the hunter characters, but I will give it some time before I grab the pitchfork and torches like the rest of you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 10, 2019, 08:59:53 PM
Quote from: Cerelum on April 10, 2019, 08:56:08 PM
Seems like the coin thing is going to make turning a profit harder for merchant type folks, or at least the indy ones.

Not to mention the hunter characters, but I will give it some time before I grab the pitchfork and torches like the rest of you.

Hurry up and buy a goddamn pitchfork and a torch. I need to sell these grebbed stones to the pitchfork-and-torch merchant shopkeep and he's insolvent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 10, 2019, 09:13:57 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on April 10, 2019, 07:27:26 PM
Cool changes, I always thought the rush to shops after a reset was ridiculous.
+1 for me as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on April 10, 2019, 09:35:31 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on April 10, 2019, 07:27:26 PM
Cool changes, I always thought the rush to shops after a reset was ridiculous.

This is relevant.

However, my experience is that npc merchants tend to build up quite a stock of coins, once the initial "sell five razor spears to every npc in the known" rush is over. Once all big ticket sales are complete, the coin nest steadily builds up. It used to VANISH after reboot, and npcs only booted with so many after and it starts over. I think, if they're keeping their current coin through boots, we'll see npcs having more money to support the "sell five" rush crowd, rather than less.

Just my theory, though. I guess, we'll see?

Tbh, all npcs keeping their item stock through reboot would have been better, and only restocking on limited "load on boot" items, so they can't disappear from the game entirely, once bought out.\\

Players feeling poor, and that instinctual desire to have more, would make for a more interesting game world. Everyone being mega rich, as soon as they're competent, means bribes are RIDICULOUS in scope.

If there is LESS money in the game world, peoples of importance (noble, templar) will actually matter. Atm, you don't even need to try to get rich. Even just picking up junk, others leave behind, will get you rich in a hurry. We need players to feel the pinch, and for inflation to come down, so a 300 coin bribe is a big deal when a Templar wants it, worth it when he gets it, instead of templar going full retard and wanting 10k from an indie hunter, because he knows he probably has 50k. Heck, he probably wears more than 10k in gear...

More poverty also means, more people wearing common, lower tier, and pc crafted stuff, rather than HORROR SHELL, EBON RAPTOR HIDE, ULTIMATE MV KURACI SANDCLOTH... ALL THE TIME.

Its no fun to pretend to be poor and desperate, and it's shallow when, you can flash your pcs tits at some hunter, and he'll set you up for life. Make us poor, make 50 or 100 coins a big deal, and make low end equipment more common. An indie merchant offering scrab shell armor at a discount, shouldn't get him laughed at. But, it does. Who wears, plain carru sleeves? Or regular mek hide vest? NOBODY with more than a day played, that's for sure.

I get sick of buying the same desert/scrub camo, or ebon raptor, or jade horror, or whatever, just to be seen as "average". "Oh, they only have vendor armor from the bazaar... must be new to hunting!". It's stupid.

+1 for poverty and desperation, that players and their pcs feel and have to deal with, instead of pretending to be once in a while, for funsies.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 10, 2019, 09:42:19 PM
The downside to the coin-reboot thing, is if the NPC merchant is out of money when the game resets. It'll come back with the NPC still out of money. Some folks carry around their stuff to sell for RL days hoping to sell just -one- of something, to the only merchant who buys that type of thing..that'd be really frustrating to think "hey I might actually have a chance today" and then BOOM - game reset, and the NPC comes back without a single sid, because someone got to him and cleared him out right before the game reset.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 10, 2019, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on April 10, 2019, 09:42:19 PM
The downside to the coin-reboot thing, is if the NPC merchant is out of money when the game resets. It'll come back with the NPC still out of money. Some folks carry around their stuff to sell for RL days hoping to sell just -one- of something, to the only merchant who buys that type of thing..that'd be really frustrating to think "hey I might actually have a chance today" and then BOOM - game reset, and the NPC comes back without a single sid, because someone got to him and cleared him out right before the game reset.

I think it's even worse than that because the NPC will NEVER reset. Which means, let's say you're trying to sell an ankheg shell chair worth 500 obsidian coins.

Someone washed out Tommy the chair buying merchant, so he currently has 0 'sid. vNPCs, with a painful lack of urgency, begin buying chairs back from Tommy and he's getting more and more currency. You bide your time, waiting for the moment he has close to 500 'sid so you can pounce.

Except, every single time Tommy hits 30 'sid, someone sells him a bone stool for 30 'sid and resets him. Because Tommy will NEVER be flush with coins as resets no longer plump his wallet, you'd best get to sitting on your chair, cause you ain't selling*.

*Unless you find another PC who happens to want an ankheg throne.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 10, 2019, 09:59:18 PM
Quote from: Vex on April 10, 2019, 09:35:31 PMHowever, my experience is that npc merchants tend to build up quite a stock of coins, once the initial "sell five razor spears to every npc in the known" rush is over.
This depends on the NPC (some build up quicker then others), but this is why I think it's possible all of the doom and gloom isn't going to be as bad as initially thought. I expect Allanak will be hard to turn a profit. But that players will be rewarded by traveling to other markets.

Quote from: Vex on April 10, 2019, 09:35:31 PMTbh, all npcs keeping their item stock through reboot would have been better, and only restocking on limited "load on boot" items, so they can't disappear from the game entirely, once bought out.
I don't know if "better" is the right word. It would have had a bigger imapct, that's for sure. Either the code wasn't ready to be released or staff are waiting to see how this change pans out first. Either way, assuming the game doesn't shit itself in the next week and become completely unplayable, this will be coming as well.

Quote from: Vex on April 10, 2019, 09:35:31 PMAtm, you don't even need to try to get rich. Even just picking up junk, others leave behind, will get you rich in a hurry
THis is my hope. At the moment amassing wealth is meaningless because it is seen as "doing nothing" (not a view I've ever had, but it's commonly thrown about as fact). Achievers don't achieve anything by amassing wealth so it's unsatisfying for them. It also goes against theme which upsets people for whom that's important.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on April 10, 2019, 10:02:18 PM
I would assume they eventually refill with coins as time goes on, from Vnpc sales.

Hopefully that is good enough to keep them stocked with coins where we don't all die of thirst.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 11, 2019, 12:57:05 AM
VNPC sales only works if they keep before reboot inventory as well. Which would also mean that you need be rid of the five item limit OR change the vnpc sales to target things the npc has at least 5 of.

Though, I have seen most npc merchants building a good pile of coin to vnpc sales myself.

Shrug.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on April 11, 2019, 01:44:58 AM
Maybe make VNPC purchases of wares in shops have a 1/3 chance to occur every ingame hour, in every store. So, when the store is inactive, it can organically regenerate its till-balance even from items that come in an infinite stock. Could fix the issue before it begins.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tapas on April 11, 2019, 02:37:40 AM
Each outpost absolutely needs a commodities merchant that will buy an infinite number of everything at basement prices.

As it stands it makes more sense to leave that scrab shell behind because you know you aren't going to get to sell it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on April 11, 2019, 02:48:22 AM
Quote from: tapas on April 11, 2019, 02:37:40 AM
Each outpost absolutely needs a commodities merchant that will buy an infinite number of everything at basement prices.

As it stands it makes more sense to leave that scrab shell behind because you know you aren't going to get to sell it.

Yep.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 11, 2019, 08:04:21 AM
Quote from: tapas on April 11, 2019, 02:37:40 AM
Each outpost absolutely needs a commodities merchant that will buy an infinite number of everything at basement prices.

As it stands it makes more sense to leave that scrab shell behind because you know you aren't going to get to sell it.

Absolutely. Even a diminishing returns system would be better than the 5-per-npc we have now, I feel.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: flurry on April 11, 2019, 08:29:23 AM
I'm very interested to see how this change goes. I think it's great that staff are willing to make such a potentially impactful change to the game economy.

I also think shops saving inventory would be a good thing, although then the item limit might be a problem.

I also want to add that one concern I have, related to this coins-saving change for shops, is that some items are priced in a way that a PC would only want to sell the items, and never buy them (regardless of haggle skill). For instance, hypothetically if you have some item of mediocre utility that shops will pay 400 coins for, and then mark up to 800 coins, no PC will ever pay for it. The item's only true function is to move coins out of shops and into PC pockets. I think prices work best if some PC's might be willing to buy and others might be willing to sell the same item. This is totally pie-in-the-sky, but dynamic prices based on PC economic behavior would be really interesting.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on April 11, 2019, 08:36:05 AM
Quote from: tapas on April 11, 2019, 02:37:40 AM
Each outpost absolutely needs a commodities merchant that will buy an infinite number of everything at basement prices.

As it stands it makes more sense to leave that scrab shell behind because you know you aren't going to get to sell it.

+1 on diminishing returns, though I would have it go to a set minimum price.

Oh and if the merchants are overstocked, they sell the items for less, too. 

And slowly boost the rate merchants sell things to NPCs until it evens out, so that we aren't stuck with merchants that perpetually have no money.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Knight of Knives on April 11, 2019, 08:40:51 AM
Guess your merchants are gonna have to get the other merchants murdered.

*shrug*
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on April 11, 2019, 09:05:36 AM
Idea for diminishing returns:

PER PC trying to sell to the NPC:
1st sale: up to 100% haggle price that they typically will provide.
2nd sale: up to 75% haggle.
3rd sale: up to 40% haggle
4th sale: up to 10% haggle
5th sale: whatever the NPC initially offers.
Subsequent sales: decrease in initial offer by 10% per attempt.

The reverse would apply for PCs trying to buy from the NPC.

Exception: if you don't try to haggle at all, NPC and PC will buy/sell at prevailing rate, set by NPC, for however many of the item he/she has in stock.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 11, 2019, 09:55:15 AM
I'm for the idea of merchants maintaining their coin through reboots, though ideally I would have a caveat that each merchant has a set number of coins. Call it 500. If they have less, on game reboot, they have 500. if they have >=500, maintain.

Regardless, my concern is that this is either part of a larger push for the economy, or the proposal was not passed by people who actually play this game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on April 11, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
I think it'd be fine if the NPC selling mechanism was tweaked and improved; if certain merchants were able to sell to NPCs which currently can't due to their later opening hours, and if selling rates were more proportional to what the NPC has for sale

For instance if a merchant has 100 items for sale..and all it does is sell one item worth 30 coins to an NPC..then that did nothing for the whole IC day. Then, randomly, it might sell an item worth 1000 coins to an NPC, and suddenly the NPC has a lot of coin.

I think what this will do is actually worsen the lifestyle of merchants selling to NPCs..now instead of knowing that generally after a reboot you can sell some stuff and make that rent money, you'll be checking over and over and over and or trying to rush to the shops when NPC merchants tend to sell one item to an NPC..that doesn't strike me as fun. if Merchants sold more reliably to NPCs and there was more NPC-NPC economic interactions then it'd feel more realistic and sustainable in my opinion

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 11, 2019, 10:32:16 AM
Seems like this won't make much difference. Aside from that recent crash bug, how often have we been rebooting?

I've been fairly satisfied with the rate at which I've been able to sell to shops, though I'm sure there are item x location combinations that suck.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 12, 2019, 09:43:10 PM
"-Ethereal creatures will no longer attack tents."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on April 12, 2019, 11:50:32 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on April 12, 2019, 09:43:10 PM
"-Ethereal creatures will no longer attack tents."

lmfao probably a few instances of someone setting up a tent and immediately after, 'something breaks the diamond-embroidered tent'
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 13, 2019, 01:04:33 AM
Quote from: Harmless on April 11, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
I think what this will do is actually worsen the lifestyle of merchants selling to NPCs..now instead of knowing that generally after a reboot you can sell some stuff and make that rent money, you'll be checking over and over and over and or trying to rush to the shops when NPC merchants tend to sell one item to an NPC..that doesn't strike me as fun.

This, at least for certain types of items.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on April 13, 2019, 01:42:07 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 13, 2019, 01:04:33 AM
Quote from: Harmless on April 11, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
I think what this will do is actually worsen the lifestyle of merchants selling to NPCs..now instead of knowing that generally after a reboot you can sell some stuff and make that rent money, you'll be checking over and over and over and or trying to rush to the shops when NPC merchants tend to sell one item to an NPC..that doesn't strike me as fun.

This, at least for certain types of items.

I've already mentioned this as well: You'll be competing with people that logged out five hours ago.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 13, 2019, 02:59:36 AM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on April 11, 2019, 10:32:16 AM
Seems like this won't make much difference. Aside from that recent crash bug, how often have we been rebooting?

I've been fairly satisfied with the rate at which I've been able to sell to shops, though I'm sure there are item x location combinations that suck.
We rebooted 10 hours, 35 minutes and 8 seconds ago as of this post
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kryos on April 13, 2019, 03:20:34 AM
This seems to upscale and downscale poorly in addition to having a bit of potential abuse based on existing sale mechanics and exclusivity.  But this is the knee jerk reaction since I hadn't even entertained it before reading about it.  And its usually best to observe before writing things off.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 13, 2019, 03:27:46 AM
Question: Do we accept that it is absurdly easy to earn money as an independent? Common wisdom seems to be yes. Over the years people have complained or observed this constantly.

Question: Do we accept that money has become so meaningless simply because of it's abundance? Common wisdom seems to be yes. Because it's so easy, the inflation for bribes is huge, or else the bribe is simply meaningless and no matter how much you bribe someone, the victim can bribe more so long as they're an independent.

Question: Are there sources of ways to earn coin that is unaffected by this change? Again, the answer is yes. There is logging, foraging for spice, mining, salting and crafting crap goods in Red Storm.

I can see the potential for good change. I think it's worthwhile testing out the changes and providing feedback based on your experiences with the changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 13, 2019, 03:10:53 PM
A+ on recent dodge changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 13, 2019, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: Veselka on April 13, 2019, 03:10:53 PM
A+ on recent dodge changes.

https://youtu.be/S02BHmWPZNs
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 13, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
Quote from: John on April 13, 2019, 03:27:46 AM
Question: Do we accept that it is absurdly easy to earn money as an independent? Common wisdom seems to be yes. Over the years people have complained or observed this constantly.

Question: Do we accept that money has become so meaningless simply because of it's abundance? Common wisdom seems to be yes. Because it's so easy, the inflation for bribes is huge, or else the bribe is simply meaningless and no matter how much you bribe someone, the victim can bribe more so long as they're an independent.

Question: Are there sources of ways to earn coin that is unaffected by this change? Again, the answer is yes. There is logging, foraging for spice, mining, salting and crafting crap goods in Red Storm.

I can see the potential for good change. I think it's worthwhile testing out the changes and providing feedback based on your experiences with the changes.

I'd have muchly preferred to see options added for people to spend coins on. Instead the trend seems to be to keep taking things away (coded power, fiscal power) until there'll be nothing left to do but wait in the tavern for the next catastrophe or play yet again as someone's disposable minion.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on April 13, 2019, 03:43:23 PM
Agreed. I feel many of the items are just props and many of the unique and mastcrafted items get lost. It would rather have more non-materialist things to spend on like music from bards in the taverns or even whores. Heck even NPC hired bodyguards for commoners.  It just makes me to not want to play a coded artisan or a grebbers because money is too easy to make but there is nothing to really spend on expect the everyday things, armor, and arms.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 13, 2019, 03:44:15 PM
In seriousness though, this dodge thing is an enormously attractive change of course. I don't know if this is how I would have gone about solving the problem, but I clearly don't have access to the code so I don't know how difficult things really are. Thank you for listening to the players.

That being said, Brokkr/Ness: is it possible to alter this flat chance on an NPC by NPC basis? If this flat chance is independent of the agility/defense of the NPC, then you can just slot it in as whatever you'd like for anything, no, unless it's a global variable? You can make it negligible for turaal (who don't need any more dodginess) and make it sizeable for mekillot (to encourage people to tackle bigger challenges).

This change is good in that it solves the false ceiling and makes achievement possible, and either way I'm happier for it, but can we go farther and springboard this into adding risk/reward into the equation?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 13, 2019, 04:49:03 PM
Amazing change. Glad defense was looked at as offense always felt bloated

I just hope this small chance is added on top of current dodge chances which seem kinda bad even on high agility characters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on April 13, 2019, 05:34:51 PM
Quote(Nessalin)
-Shops now maintain inventory between reboots.
  -This includes their unique values such as bloodied, dyed colors, and state (damaged armor, aged food, etc...)

Yeesssssssssssss...!

Next, give weapons a damage dealt, material and manufacture (indie vs clan quality) chance to break, up rate of armor damage and it's cost of repair, and ELIMINATE clan "free food" sources. Make nobles/clan leaders servants do some leg work, and be responsible for logistics, and to spend some of that leaders money hiring hunters to get them food. The leaders can decide, what their minions deserve to eat, or not, but also depend on them for there to be food at all. Sweet, sweet symbiosis!

The will pcs consume, and the pcs will provide, and npcs are relegated to support roles, instead of the primary sources. Yes.

The dodge thing is is also nice, too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 13, 2019, 05:49:16 PM
I rarely see gear other than shield take damage. You really need some big hits to start seeing a difference.

I think weapons should sustain damage like armor based on how strong the wielder is, not outright break, more damaged the weapon the less damage it does.

Armor repair could then be changed to equipment repair allowing for both weapon and armor repair.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 13, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 13, 2019, 05:49:16 PM
I rarely see gear other than shield take damage. You really need some big hits to start seeing a difference.

The jet-black, long-tailed kryl laughs heartily.

Quote
Update: Release rolled back.  Will try again, later.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:21:14 PM by nessalin »

Alexa, play Untitled by Simple Plan.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 13, 2019, 06:24:40 PM
Ah kryl, how i miss thee.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 13, 2019, 08:04:53 PM
Quote from: Namino on April 13, 2019, 03:44:15 PM
In seriousness though, this dodge thing is an enormously attractive change of course. I don't know if this is how I would have gone about solving the problem, but I clearly don't have access to the code so I don't know how difficult things really are. Thank you for listening to the players.

That being said, Brokkr/Ness: is it possible to alter this flat chance on an NPC by NPC basis? If this flat chance is independent of the agility/defense of the NPC, then you can just slot it in as whatever you'd like for anything, no, unless it's a global variable? You can make it negligible for turaal (who don't need any more dodginess) and make it sizeable for mekillot (to encourage people to tackle bigger challenges).

This change is good in that it solves the false ceiling and makes achievement possible, and either way I'm happier for it, but can we go farther and springboard this into adding risk/reward into the equation?

It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

It was possible in certain situations to be sparring an equally skilled opponent and have no possibility of a dodge, and thus having no chance to learn. This was a way to address that without redoing the entire or massive parts of the combat code, which would take a lot of time and player deaths to appease Ginka.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 13, 2019, 08:22:36 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 13, 2019, 08:04:53 PM
Quote from: Namino on April 13, 2019, 03:44:15 PM
In seriousness though, this dodge thing is an enormously attractive change of course. I don't know if this is how I would have gone about solving the problem, but I clearly don't have access to the code so I don't know how difficult things really are. Thank you for listening to the players.

That being said, Brokkr/Ness: is it possible to alter this flat chance on an NPC by NPC basis? If this flat chance is independent of the agility/defense of the NPC, then you can just slot it in as whatever you'd like for anything, no, unless it's a global variable? You can make it negligible for turaal (who don't need any more dodginess) and make it sizeable for mekillot (to encourage people to tackle bigger challenges).

This change is good in that it solves the false ceiling and makes achievement possible, and either way I'm happier for it, but can we go farther and springboard this into adding risk/reward into the equation?

It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

It was possible in certain situations to be sparring an equally skilled opponent and have no possibility of a dodge, and thus having no chance to learn. This was a way to address that without redoing the entire or massive parts of the combat code, which would take a lot of time and player deaths to appease Ginka.

Yesss...This is exactly what I was hoping it was for. PCs plateau together, and then basically just stay the same for long stretches of time until 'events outside the compound' train them up. This provides a sort of continuity past 5 Days Played to the importance of training together. Dig it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 13, 2019, 08:39:49 PM
Quote from: Namino on April 13, 2019, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: Veselka on April 13, 2019, 03:10:53 PM
A+ on recent dodge changes.

https://youtu.be/S02BHmWPZNs
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 13, 2019, 09:16:53 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 13, 2019, 03:27:38 PMI'd have muchly preferred to see options added for people to spend coins on. Instead the trend seems to be to keep taking things away (coded power, fiscal power) until there'll be nothing left to do but wait in the tavern for the next catastrophe or play yet again as someone's disposable minion.
We already have lots of things to spend coin on. But those things are seen as rather meaningless to most people because of how easily they're obtained. Making those things harder to obtain will potentially make them more valuable.

Also, for those who say that staff don't listen: Dodge change. Thanks to Brokkr for doing all the hard work and your willingness to reexamine a long standing issue and advocate for a change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bogre on April 13, 2019, 09:47:34 PM
Quote from: Veselka on April 13, 2019, 03:10:53 PM
A+ on recent dodge changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on April 14, 2019, 01:46:03 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 13, 2019, 08:04:53 PM
It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

It was possible in certain situations to be sparring an equally skilled opponent and have no possibility of a dodge, and thus having no chance to learn. This was a way to address that without redoing the entire or massive parts of the combat code, which would take a lot of time and player deaths to appease Ginka.

Yes this exactly! Thank you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 14, 2019, 01:56:39 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 13, 2019, 08:04:53 PM

It is a very small chance.  It is global, but is meant to address clan situations more than NPCs, as with NPCs you can generally change what you are fighting.  Not so easy in clans.

I agree. As long as a chance exists, stagnation can be avoided, so this is a major step in the positive direction.

I just wish we could brainstorm up a way to make dangerous things more enticing and non-dangerous things less useful. As you've said, you can always change the NPCs you're fighting when dodges get scarce. The problem as I see it is that this requires you to target things low on the food-chain/danger scale, rather than biting off actual challenges. Skilling up on NPCs doesn't require you to stick your neck out yet.

In some ways I think the proposed flat-dodge chance might work out okay, because once no wild animal can dodge you except for the flat percentage, the "optimal" route would be to hunt things that give you the most chances (ie, something that can weather the most hits), which includes violent megafauna. Unfortunately, I think a mek can probably take as many hits as 10 scrab, and most sane people would choose many fights of few skill chances each against something safe than one fight of many skill chances against something that can whallop you.

But that's just spitballing. Again, reemphasizing, the proposed change is a good thing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 14, 2019, 04:49:43 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 13, 2019, 03:27:38 PMInstead the trend seems to be to keep taking things away (coded power, fiscal power) until there'll be nothing left to do but wait in the tavern for the next catastrophe or play yet again as someone's disposable minion.
Just to be absolute clear: I do not see this as taking something away. I see it as trying to provide something. That something is fiscal power.

Removing main guild magickers? That took something away. The whole mantra of "character first, magicker second" could have been maintained by simply having subguild magickers be an option. Removing Drovians from the game? That took something away. I do not see this as taking something away. The ability to amass large amounts of coin was severely boosted by your ability to login after a reboot or crash. It made no sense from an IC perspective and was purely an OOC construct (albeit one I certainly benefited from as an offpeak player where the reboots typically happened in my prime time).

What does this introduce into the game? Coin being meaningful. Resources being meaningful. Paying for water or food isn't hard. Because of how easy it is to amass wealth. Traveling to other markets to offload goods, while profitable, isn't necessary because you can get a whole lot of wealth in your local market (whatever market that might be). It often won't actually be worth the trouble. Hopefully with this change, not only will it be worth the trouble, but establishing contacts in other towns and talking with them about what the local market is demanding and what the local market has to offer so that the merchant can turn a profit. Because turning a profit is the difference between paying for your apartment or living on the street.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 08:29:04 AM
Wow. The reboot item change certainly isn't a small.

At least over time, stores might start to fill up with common stuff.

Hmm. I like it and am curious to see how this turns out, anything to make coins more valuable to the masses can really only be a good thing. Maybe I might be able to pay someone to do something without them rolling their eyes at a couple hundred coins. It would be nice if this trickles upwards and accepting bribes or bigger cuts of coins become more tempting.

I would love for more things to spend coin on but also I think we should re-enforce certain things in game. For example, how you smell should be a factor of whether or not you can go to Reds and get served. With the bartender or waitress assuming the person is not hidden, visibly wrinkling their nose to anyone who just smells of dust and sweat. Even more so for being covered with any blood and gore.

It wouldn't prevent you from sitting there mind you, a byn sergeant heading there for business might not care, but many other characer's depending on their role might as a sign of status. Certain fancier places and perhaps some shops might call you out on it or even refuse to serve you if you stink of commoner.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 08:29:04 AM
For example, how you smell should be a factor of whether or not you can go to Reds and get served. With the bartender or waitress assuming the person is not hidden, visibly wrinkling their nose to anyone who just smells of dust and sweat. Even more so for being covered with any blood and gore.

Might I point out that the Red's is smack dab in the middle of the Commoner's Quarter, with a whole plaza of full of commoners just outside? And that the Commoner's Quarter is described as being extremely smelly?

Offended noses should be getting their drinks in the Arboretum, because they won't find relief in the Commoner's Quarter.

The Red's isn't that hoity-toity either. Have you looked at the furniture in there? Although I suppose you could argue it's a legacy from the Bard's Barrel. The various descriptions never were completely changed over.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 14, 2019, 11:21:06 AM
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 11:24:06 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 08:29:04 AM
For example, how you smell should be a factor of whether or not you can go to Reds and get served. With the bartender or waitress assuming the person is not hidden, visibly wrinkling their nose to anyone who just smells of dust and sweat. Even more so for being covered with any blood and gore.

Might I point out that the Red's is smack dab in the middle of the Commoner's Quarter, with a whole plaza of full of commoners just outside? And that the Commoner's Quarter is described as being extremely smelly?

Offended noses should be getting their drinks in the Arboretum, because they won't find relief in the Commoner's Quarter.

The Red's isn't that hoity-toity either. Have you looked at the furniture in there? Although I suppose you could argue it's a legacy from the Bard's Barrel. The various descriptions never were completely changed over.

Fair pointed worth discussing, in another thread someday but I don't want to get into that as the is not the point of the idea. Replace Red with Arboretum if need be to get the point across.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 11:33:51 AM
Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2019, 11:21:06 AM
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.

What I could see is a bits shop, never having inventory and willing to buy almost anything for 1-3 sid at the most OR better yet just trade for food/water. This would ensure anyone can sell things and collect enough to buy food and water.

After that even if the shops stop buying all together, i would have no complaints myself.

This can be very interesting for everyone though as even thieves will now be more interested in coins or really unique stuff rather than common stuff to steal from apartments or people. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 12:14:02 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2019, 11:21:06 AM
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.

Because adding things to spend on is just an absurd idea?

Property, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.

It doesn't even have to be that. City projects looking for donors. A good example was the attempt to build onto the "rock-lined road" west of Allanak. Why can't the City Ministry collect money to build a crafting hall, for example, since people hate it so much if someone crafts in the taverns? Why can't there be small plots of land that people could operate as farms, planting and such, when the city is going through one of its food shortages? Why not a road to Menos? An archery tower somewhere along the road for soldiers to go out and man now and then to cover those travelling to Menos or to the obsidian mine?

Why not use imagination to expand the game?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 14, 2019, 12:19:24 PM
Just pointing it out, people complained PCs had too much money because it was safe in the bank, Changes were made, which caused people to have even more money because it was not safe in a bank. People complained more about PCs having too much money. Changes were made that might reduce money a tiny little bit and people complain there is not going to be enough money.

Myself, I hate the changes to the bank because it has increased the amount of coin in the world.

Changes to merchants so far, look great to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on April 14, 2019, 01:18:09 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 12:14:02 PM
Quote from: X-D on April 14, 2019, 11:21:06 AM
I love how people complain about too much coin, which is true and caused by such changes as the banks charging. Then complain that there will not be enough if npcs don't restock coin after a reboot.

Because adding things to spend on is just an absurd idea?

Property, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.

It doesn't even have to be that. City projects looking for donors. A good example was the attempt to build onto the "rock-lined road" west of Allanak. Why can't the City Ministry collect money to build a crafting hall, for example, since people hate it so much if someone crafts in the taverns? Why can't there be small plots of land that people could operate as farms, planting and such, when the city is going through one of its food shortages? Why not a road to Menos? An archery tower somewhere along the road for soldiers to go out and man now and then to cover those travelling to Menos or to the obsidian mine?

Why not use imagination to expand the game?

These are things that can, and have been, done in game now.

Want to throw money at privileges and minor titles? Find a Templar/Noble and pay them.
Want to own property or get some hirelings? It's a similar system and work up through the player clan system.

Want to build up the roads? Get to work on it. Negotiate with a Templar and tell them your plans, hire grebbers to go out there and place rocks, talk to a Borsail noble and hire/buy a slave labour crew to build it up. Hire a unit of T'zai Byn to patrol the area where the grebbers you've hired are placing stone and the Borsail labour crew are setting those stones into the road.

Bam you're spending money on a City Project.

Same again for the Crafting Hall. Rent one of the warehouses from the City Ministry and open it up yourself as a crafting hall. Your Player Clan is all about setting this up and providing access to a warehouse with tools and support for independant crafters!

As again for the other ideas. Some will need more work coordinating with staff as you go about them but most are available now if you work with the Nobles/Templars in game and throw your money around at them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 01:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on April 14, 2019, 01:18:09 PM
These are things that can, and have been, done in game now.

Want to throw money at privileges and minor titles? Find a Templar/Noble and pay them.

It was something that was done to great effect in Tuluk. Don't see it very much in allanak, but perhaps I just haven't noticed.

Additionally, it feels like there is not enough temptation for militia and Templar to take bribes. I hope this is looked at next.

As for nakkie nobles...heh. I've never seen the roles really allow the players behind them to contribute as much as any Tuluki nobles could to the overall game. This may be improving a bit, or at least seems to be going in the right direction but not sure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 14, 2019, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 12:14:02 PMProperty, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.
Property exists (rentable apartments, warehouses, shops, compounds), 24/7 NPC guards exist. Arguably founding a minor merchant house is buying priviledges and minor titles.

Bushranger covers everything else.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 14, 2019, 01:38:47 PM
This may sound silly, but it might be cool to have an 'Inheritance' subguild or karma option, wherein you start in the game with like 10k in the bank. So you can try and jumpstart a player clan from the get go. Make it 2K. Call it the 'Inflation Subguild', heh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 14, 2019, 01:43:24 PM
Quote from: Veselka on April 14, 2019, 01:38:47 PM
This may sound silly, but it might be cool to have an 'Inheritance' subguild or karma option, wherein you start in the game with like 10k in the bank. So you can try and jumpstart a player clan from the get go. Make it 2K. Call it the 'Inflation Subguild', heh.
Doesn't seem particularly thematic. Back in the day though the merchant guild did seem to start with a 'sid boost. It's possible that some of the heavy mercantile classes have a similar boost to 'sid.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bushranger on April 14, 2019, 02:13:49 PM
It's also a great thing to use a Special Application on. 10k coins in the bank is worthy of a special app I would say.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 14, 2019, 02:44:35 PM
I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 14, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 14, 2019, 02:44:35 PM
I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?

NPC Merchants currently sell to virtual npcs and collect coin that way.  "NPC MERCHANT sells to a passerby" is the echo.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 14, 2019, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 14, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 14, 2019, 02:44:35 PM
I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?

NPC Merchants currently sell to virtual npcs and collect coin that way.  "NPC MERCHANT sells to a passerby" is the echo.

Ah. I honestly thought that was just flavor.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 14, 2019, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 14, 2019, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 14, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 14, 2019, 02:44:35 PM
I'm curious if stores will also have coin steadily refill over time or willthe only items they get and the only coin they get be from players?

NPC Merchants currently sell to virtual npcs and collect coin that way.  "NPC MERCHANT sells to a passerby" is the echo.

Ah. I honestly thought that was just flavor.

I've always felt the rate of sale to vNPCs was very very slow but people in the thread who know more about this side of the game than me seem to feel like it's fine, so I bow to that. I haven't played a hardcore merchant since 2012.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on April 14, 2019, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 11:33:51 AM
This would ensure anyone can sell things and collect enough to buy food and water.

I don't want to ensure that.

It'd be better if there was no sure food and water, and that at least until you become quite confident in your skills, being dependent on other entities, such as established characters, clans and indie groups, is the norm. There will NEVER be a shortage of hunters, EVER, but most hunters won't sell you meat unless you're paying more than the npc will pay for cooked meat. It's no longer going to be viable, to sell 5 steaks of every kind to the npc, every reboot. It'll no longer be possible, to sell five of every hide and shell to an npc, every reboot.

Hunters selling meat and food products at well below what the npcs sell for, will become a viable option. Seeking out independents and house crafters both, will become required to unload all those hides and shells. If we eliminated free food for clans, or at least clan employees, hiring a reliable House hunter would actually matter, else hiring fickle independents becomes a necessity. And cooks. Suddenly, being a master chef isn't just a foppish flavor deal, but being responsible for keeping other pcs fed, to a standard appropriate to the clan, is a real and meaningful job.

When pcs MUST work together, or feed off of each other like parasites, there is unavoidable interactions. Atm, you can and many do, avoid pc contact beyond their ooc circle of friends, or those that are the most safe and comfortable, because nobody needs other pcs for anything. Even a heavy craft class has ABSOLUTELY no need for other pcs. I hope, these changes to npc merchants, will make grouping up not just possible, but neigh-requisite for success.

Tbh, I mostly solo myself, because I don't care to indulge in a lot of the stuff people regularly push for, as far as interactions go. I don't much care for the shit ic/ooc attitude of most sponsor roles, as must carry on like they don't even CARE about their business. I don't care for, largely, how disposable absolutely everyone is to each other. And all of this is, imo, due to the fact nobody NEEDS each other, for anything. The clans, indie groups, it's all CONTRIVED, simply "because interaction".

A game where we are not carried by npc hand outs, and "going without" means going hungry and dehydration instead of "going without the best gear and an apartment in every town", is my ideal.

Work together, or feed off of each other, but either way, having no choice but to depend on other pcs for survival and not enough to go around, will make the entire experience more visceral, with "real" consequences you won't be able to handwave off.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 04:44:00 PM
I don't agree with you Vex. I'm okay with PC being poor, but not so okay with them being dead because a hunter didn't log in or they rolled a class without forage food.

That said, i don't believe the changes are so extreme to make people starve, and there are always jobs like selling poop and foraging clay (though unless you are using the clay, this doesn't seem viable for city folk, resting is hard and it costs a lot of water). 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 04:57:49 PM
Quote from: John on April 14, 2019, 01:34:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 12:14:02 PMProperty, 24/7 NPC hirelings, privileges and minor titles.
Property exists (rentable apartments, warehouses, shops, compounds), 24/7 NPC guards exist. Arguably founding a minor merchant house is buying priviledges and minor titles.

*sigh* You and I rarely see eye to eye, I've noticed.

Renting an apartment is not owning a property.

24/7 guards exist in the most minimal way, certainly not as an option most characters will ever spend coin on. And there are plenty of other potential uses for NPC hirelings.

Quote
Bushranger covers everything else.

Bushranger tells me to do these things. Except that it isn't me making changes to the game that are going in the opposite direction.  One character trying to have a significant impact on the environment is hopeless, staff initiative is needed. It took some other player a year RL to get bamberry put into the game. I can only imagine how much time and effort it would take to have an actual building constructed. More than I have the fortitude for, certainly. Not to mention the improbability of such an effort surviving multiple generations of Templars and staff rotations.

All of these were examples I thought of in three minutes. I'm sure given further thought and imagination, one could produce a list as long as an elven arm. It's just not the direction things are going in though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on April 14, 2019, 05:11:22 PM
Quote from: Dresan on April 14, 2019, 04:44:00 PM
That said, i don't believe the changes are so extreme to make people starve, and there are always jobs like selling poop and foraging clay (though unless you are using the clay, this doesn't seem viable for city folk, resting is hard and it costs a lot of water).

Not in and of themselves, but I hope to see more changes in the same vein.

As for your example... if the hunter dies, or doesn't log in? I guess it's time to seek alternatives.

Worst case? Get your mate to turn some tricks... or turn them yourself. Do something menial, something "below" most pcs. Scrape dung. Dig salt. Beg.

There's always ways to put food on the table, if you're hungry enough.

Ideally... pcs will find themselves in situations, where they have to make hard choices, or do things beyond their comfort zones. As it is, everyone is quite comfortable and conceited about what they'll do, or how much they should get (over) paid even in their chalton boots, and it stinks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
Vex, you want a survival game. Which is fine, except the problem is that you'll always end up in the same place. You'll have learned how to survive and with the struggle resolved it will seem too easy again. Meanwhile newbies will die left and right and give up out of frustration. Especially true if it's made so harsh that even knowledge of the game isn't enough to guarantee survival.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on April 14, 2019, 06:44:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
Vex, you want a survival game. Which is fine, except the problem is that you'll always end up in the same place. You'll have learned how to survive and with the struggle resolved it will seem too easy again. Meanwhile newbies will die left and right and give up out of frustration. Especially true if it's made so harsh that even knowledge of the game isn't enough to guarantee survival.

You're so GDB, right now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 14, 2019, 07:22:44 PM
Quote from: Vex on April 14, 2019, 06:44:30 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
Vex, you want a survival game. Which is fine, except the problem is that you'll always end up in the same place. You'll have learned how to survive and with the struggle resolved it will seem too easy again. Meanwhile newbies will die left and right and give up out of frustration. Especially true if it's made so harsh that even knowledge of the game isn't enough to guarantee survival.

You're so GDB, right now.

EdgelordMeme.png.g.zip.tar.vcf
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 14, 2019, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 04:57:49 PM*sigh* You and I rarely see eye to eye, I've noticed.

Renting an apartment is not owning a property.
Yeah. Mostly cause it seems we're playing completely different games. I don't go to the one location around Allanak where there's free water with every character, because I like having to learn things in game and the challenge not knowing that information provides.

Likewise I understand that our characters own shit and don't ever own anything. Because the templars can take anything from you at any time and it will be 100% legal. The fact you scoff at Armageddon being a survival game really boggles my mind. Once upon a time the motto "there's no such thing as a free lunch" was actually true. You think newbies dying to starvation is bad and will drive people away. As someone who got executed by a PC templar within hours of getting into the game, I loved it.

God I hate the GDB.

My final thoughts on these changes: Could things go horribly wrong? Yes. Could things change for the better? Yes. For this reason I think it's worth giving things a chance.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 14, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 14, 2019, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 14, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

If we kill all the merchant houses, and Crafters in game, problem solved...Be the change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on April 14, 2019, 09:03:20 PM
Quote from: Krath on April 14, 2019, 09:02:09 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 14, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

If we kill all the merchant houses, and Crafters in game, problem solved...Be the change.

I guess it codedly would be possible if you killed the gate guards... But that would be a major assault.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 09:47:11 PM
Quote from: John on April 14, 2019, 07:51:56 PM
Mostly cause it seems we're playing completely different games.

We're playing the same game but we clearly want different things from it.

Quote
Likewise I understand that our characters own shit and don't ever own anything. Because the templars can take anything from you at any time and it will be 100% legal.

Hello, Red Storm? Luir's Outpost? No templars there, but this change affects them too.

Quote
The fact you scoff at Armageddon being a survival game really boggles my mind.

A straw man. My last character began in Red Storm and was created to never want to go north of it, nor be able to work cloth or leather. A deliberate experience in seeing if I could survive.

But there was a time when a character could aspire to more than just survival. You won't see any more Thrain Oakenshields or Khanns or lesser such lights in the game now though.

Quote
Once upon a time the motto "there's no such thing as a free lunch" was actually true. You think newbies dying to starvation is bad and will drive people away. As someone who got executed by a PC templar within hours of getting into the game, I loved it.

Ok, so you want the initial experience to filter players to have the same mindset (i.e. basically "bad is good"). Maybe that's the problem; I started before these ideas developed and yet I somehow stuck with the game. I've never particularly enjoyed having my character tortured or killed. Maybe your type of player has won and I'm just not letting go of the past.

Quote
God I hate the GDB.

No argument from me here. I'm not opposing any change, though, which is what I find the GDB to be: one big "no" to everything that isn't proposed by staff. I just want a different sort of change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 09:57:59 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 14, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

So, for clarification: are all the crumbling mudbrick dwellings and miserable hovels in the Commoner's Quarter owned by Nenyuk? I admit it's been a long time, but there was a day when PCs could own houses in Allanak and Tuluk. I even built a few of them. The clear implication was that some commoners did own their walls, no matter how squalid.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on April 14, 2019, 10:20:58 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 14, 2019, 08:12:49 PM
Pretty much no one owns property IC'ly either.

Vex probably would have liked the game a lot before there was crafting, the economy was quite different.  There has been significant inflation.

Doubt it. Merchants used to have unlimited coin. I used to run between Luirs and Tuluk selling the same thing over and over again and racked up tens of thousands. The only limit was my family had one phone line and I couldn't log on for long periods of time or it might have been 100's of thousands.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on April 14, 2019, 10:30:22 PM
Granted I hardly live long enough to advance my combat skills past, "I'm able to kill a raptor/spider" but they literally listened to everyone complaining about skill plateaus and created a small chance to dodge.

So they listened.

One thing I would like back is the thing that says, cerelum three typos resolved etc etc, so you know someone is actually looking at bugs and typos.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on April 14, 2019, 11:47:28 PM
Quote from: Cerelum on April 14, 2019, 10:30:22 PM
Granted I hardly live long enough to advance my combat skills past, "I'm able to kill a raptor/spider" but they literally listened to everyone complaining about skill plateaus and created a small chance to dodge.

So they listened.

One thing I would like back is the thing that says, cerelum three typos resolved etc etc, so you know someone is actually looking at bugs and typos.

www.armageddon.org/updates/
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 15, 2019, 04:55:41 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on April 14, 2019, 09:47:11 PMOk, so you want the initial experience to filter players to have the same mindset (i.e. basically "bad is good"). Maybe that's the problem; I started before these ideas developed and yet I somehow stuck with the game. I've never particularly enjoyed having my character tortured or killed. Maybe your type of player has won and I'm just not letting go of the past.

Oh good. We are at the part of the discussion where we argue "I've been here longer so I'm more right". Please tell me when you started playing Arm so then one of us can summarily dismiss the other person.

And yes. I do want Armageddon to be harsh and for that to be what newbies experience. That way people who enjoy that style of game will remain and help foster that environment. You can call it bad. I call it one of the key ingredients to Armageddon's continued success.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
I'm not sure I understand. Seems like the first person to get to the store is going to deplete all the coins now and there will be no more unless someone buys something. So when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero? Isn't this just going to result in none of the stores ever having any money?

Also, why can't the shops of the GMH's just act as distributors for THEIR own goods and no one elses. The crafters that make (GMH) goods can just deposit them in the shop for some GMH credit or something. Then all the NPC indie merchants would not have to deplete all their coins buying silk dresses that realistically they shouldn't be able to afford. And if a person goes to a GMH shop, they can be assured the product they purchase is truly genuine.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 15, 2019, 06:50:27 AM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AMI'm not sure I understand. Seems like the first person to get to the store is going to deplete all the coins now and there will be no more unless someone buys something.
NPCs have sold to VNPC for some time now.

Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AMSo when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero?
When an shop sells to a VNPC they actually sell a real item. If it's not one of their "many" items, this depletes the store's stock of that item.

Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AMAlso, why can't the shops of the GMH's just act as distributors for THEIR own goods and no one elses. The crafters that make (GMH) goods can just deposit them in the shop for some GMH credit or something. Then all the NPC indie merchants would not have to deplete all their coins buying silk dresses that realistically they shouldn't be able to afford. And if a person goes to a GMH shop, they can be assured the product they purchase is truly genuine.
I don't really understand what your suggesting and what the expected behaviour is to your suggestion. The two parts of this quote don't really seem to go together.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on April 15, 2019, 08:57:46 AM
If shops maintain existing inventory on reboot, what's going to happen to those items that existed only in limited quantities on shop reboots before? I know there were many of these in game, where there was no way to craft the item, and there were only 1 or 2 available from a shop when the game first rebooted. Are these items still going to replenish, or are they now effectively gone from the game?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 15, 2019, 09:45:00 AM
Quote from: Heade on April 15, 2019, 08:57:46 AM
If shops maintain existing inventory on reboot, what's going to happen to those items that existed only in limited quantities on shop reboots before? I know there were many of these in game, where there was no way to craft the item, and there were only 1 or 2 available from a shop when the game first rebooted. Are these items still going to replenish, or are they now effectively gone from the game?
I would hope that staff would take note of these items and readjust their availability as necessary, but you raise a good point. From memory there is a cushion in the half-elf furniture seller in Allanak that has an inventory of 1 per reboot so in order to buy a matching set I would literally have to wait for multiple reboots.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: PriestlySiren on April 15, 2019, 10:05:02 AM
A couple things. Having food and water provided for clans is a perk for joining a clan. Take it away from the Byn? There's not enough indie hunters to sustain them. They have to take focus away from contracts to go hunt.

Back in 2013, Arm of the Dragon didn't have an npc to feed the recruits. So it was on Privates and higher to randomly fill bags to feed people. If the clan was slow, you could legit starve while not getting paid, following a strict schedule and never being allowed to leave the city gates.

Clans have perks. Some more than others.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on April 15, 2019, 10:53:20 AM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AM
So when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero? Isn't this just going to result in none of the stores ever having any money?

Pretty much. Not just hunters, but grebbers and crafters too.

The shops regenerate a little money over time, but you'll be in competition with everyone else for it. So the following is probably good advice:

1. Small things have the best chance to sell, big things will be problematic.

2. There's little point in holding onto more than one or two of the same type of item unless you're going to use it yourself or give it to someone to use. If you more of it, toss it.

3. An exception to #1 might be Salarr, with the steady stream of new characters slowly equipping themselves over time, and with the largely high-priced items selling to NPCs once in a while.

All of the shops are going to look really, really full after a while, so at least the selection for buyers will be good.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on April 15, 2019, 11:37:01 AM
Also, think of it as bartering.

I tried to sell something to a shop just the other day and got the "I don't have coins for that!" message.

I then looked at his stock and said, hey I want one of those watsits anyways.  Bought it with coins, then offloaded my things to him.  Essentially bartering.

Here, hold these coins, now buy this shit, we are even.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on April 15, 2019, 11:43:42 AM
In my experience, whenever merchants coins were reset, they ended up with 'less' coins, not more.

It was a common strategy after a reboot to sell a few very high priced items to the merchants at low value. As low as 10 sid for something that would normally go for 300-600s.  Merchants sell to vnpcs and generate coin. The item they sell is random, but they do it regularly enough that they'll end up selling high value items and suddenly they've got 600-900 in their pockets. Then you come back with a bunch of low value items and offload en masse.

Ofcourse now it's all moot, since there will no longer be a reset of items, nor coin. But I doubt the problem of merchants being low on coin will be a common one, unless someone recently offloaded their merchandise on them. The problem of 5 item maximum will be more significant then lack of coin.


I genuinely do not like the idea of infinite sales of cheap items. Since even at the lowest of profits, people end up with thousands upon thousands. Ie RS Tailors. But I would love to have someone give out chits that you can exchane for free food and drink at the bars. That would be superb. 
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on April 15, 2019, 11:59:11 AM
Another thing I've never actually tried, is to use the offer item to barter items.

I'm assuming it works because it's in the help file, but I might need to actually explore if it really works or not in a realistic barter situation with say a weaponcrafter and raw materials.

Quotehelp offer

Offer                                                                 (Shops)

   This command is used to initiate or continue haggling with a merchant.
If you are completely unfamiliar with the barter system of buying and
selling goods, see "help faq" under the heading "How do I purchase things
from shops?"
   There are two syntaxes for the offer command, but the general form
follows:

   offer <money or item> <money or item> <merchant>

   The difference between buying and selling is subtle, and sometimes does
not even involve an exchange of money. The best way to describe these two
processes is by example.
   In order to buy a sword, for instance, which a merchant wishes to open
for bidding at 100 coins, one could begin by typing:

   > offer 90 sword

   The merchant will either counter with his/her own offer or will stand by
the original price. Repeated attempts at lowering the price are allowed,
and you may manage to convince the merchant to agree.
   It is possible, however, to enrage merchants with insane offers or by
haggling too long on one item. It will be evident when a merchant is
beginning to get angry.
   In order to sell the same sword (which the merchant wants to buy at 60
coins, for example), one could type:

   > offer sword 65

   And the same process will operate as with buying.
   To exchange one item for another, say a shield for the sword:

   > offer shield sword

   In the case where multiple items of the same name are present, one can
refer to the item desired by its number (which is obtained by use of the
list command). Thus, the following may be perfectly acceptable:



[MORE]

   > offer 75 #12

   Once the deal is satisfactory, one must use the barter command (q.v.) to
end haggling and make the exchange.


Syntax:
   offer <your money or item> <their money or item> <merchant>

Example:
   > offer 90 sword (offer 90 coins for their sword)

> offer sword 65 (offer your sword for sale for 65 coins)

> offer shield sword (offer to trade your shield for their sword)

> offer 75 #12 (offer 75 coins for the 12th item in their list)

See also:
   barter, list, shops, skill haggle, tailor, view
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on April 15, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
I actually feel better about the coin change now that the items are static too. I wonder how it will affect those shops that had a rotating inventory by design, but I guess we'll find out!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on April 15, 2019, 12:06:57 PM
Quote from: Cerelum on April 15, 2019, 11:59:11 AM
Another thing I've never actually tried, is to use the offer item to barter items.

I'm assuming it works because it's in the help file, but I might need to actually explore if it really works or not in a realistic barter situation with say a weaponcrafter and raw materials.

Quotehelp offer

Offer                                                                 (Shops)

   This command is used to initiate or continue haggling with a merchant.
If you are completely unfamiliar with the barter system of buying and
selling goods, see "help faq" under the heading "How do I purchase things
from shops?"
   There are two syntaxes for the offer command, but the general form
follows:

   offer <money or item> <money or item> <merchant>

   The difference between buying and selling is subtle, and sometimes does
not even involve an exchange of money. The best way to describe these two
processes is by example.
   In order to buy a sword, for instance, which a merchant wishes to open
for bidding at 100 coins, one could begin by typing:

   > offer 90 sword

   The merchant will either counter with his/her own offer or will stand by
the original price. Repeated attempts at lowering the price are allowed,
and you may manage to convince the merchant to agree.
   It is possible, however, to enrage merchants with insane offers or by
haggling too long on one item. It will be evident when a merchant is
beginning to get angry.
   In order to sell the same sword (which the merchant wants to buy at 60
coins, for example), one could type:

   > offer sword 65

   And the same process will operate as with buying.
   To exchange one item for another, say a shield for the sword:

   > offer shield sword

   In the case where multiple items of the same name are present, one can
refer to the item desired by its number (which is obtained by use of the
list command). Thus, the following may be perfectly acceptable:



[MORE]

   > offer 75 #12

   Once the deal is satisfactory, one must use the barter command (q.v.) to
end haggling and make the exchange.


Syntax:
   offer <your money or item> <their money or item> <merchant>

Example:
   > offer 90 sword (offer 90 coins for their sword)

> offer sword 65 (offer your sword for sale for 65 coins)

> offer shield sword (offer to trade your shield for their sword)

> offer 75 #12 (offer 75 coins for the 12th item in their list)

See also:
   barter, list, shops, skill haggle, tailor, view

From what I recall, bartering for items for items doesn't work.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on April 15, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: valeria on April 15, 2019, 12:01:29 PM
I actually feel better about the coin change now that the items are static too. I wonder how it will affect those shops that had a rotating inventory by design, but I guess we'll find out!

This, and shops that only loaded with one of an item per reboot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 12:17:43 PM
Are there any plans to implement barter for multiple items along with the money change to shops?

This could be a really cool change to a far more goods based economy. I can understand that halting at staunching the infinite coin flow would probably fix a lot, but I see this as the perfect time to take barter full circle, if there are any plans to.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on April 15, 2019, 12:38:11 PM
I've traded items for items before.

It works but, the syntax is kinda funky
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 01:27:59 PM
Quote from: John on April 15, 2019, 06:50:27 AM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AMI'm not sure I understand. Seems like the first person to get to the store is going to deplete all the coins now and there will be no more unless someone buys something.
NPCs have sold to VNPC for some time now.

Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AMSo when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero?
When an shop sells to a VNPC they actually sell a real item. If it's not one of their "many" items, this depletes the store's stock of that item.

Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on April 15, 2019, 06:34:01 AMAlso, why can't the shops of the GMH's just act as distributors for THEIR own goods and no one elses. The crafters that make (GMH) goods can just deposit them in the shop for some GMH credit or something. Then all the NPC indie merchants would not have to deplete all their coins buying silk dresses that realistically they shouldn't be able to afford. And if a person goes to a GMH shop, they can be assured the product they purchase is truly genuine.
I don't really understand what your suggesting and what the expected behaviour is to your suggestion. The two parts of this quote don't really seem to go together.

Sorry that was a bit vague. My current understanding is that currently GMH merchants may not sell to their own shop. Rather, they make their fine silks fit for a noblewoman and sell it to the scraggly npc merchant fella for a large of coins. Whait I am suggesting is that RATHER than having the GMH merchants make GMH only goods and sell it on the street to a grimy NPC merchant, they use it to stock their own shop. It seems strange how it is now that Kadian shops for example, will buy your old raggedy cloak but you gotta sell your silk dress to the grimy rinth rat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on April 15, 2019, 01:56:40 PM
Staff, is there reason behind the idea that GMH's can't sell back to their shops?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 15, 2019, 02:03:51 PM
Barter economy would be cool, but it's going to require a major overhaul I think in order to work, because of the narrow focus of most of the shops in Arm.

Shopkeepers tend to only purchase items that they sell, or fall into their category.

If you want to buy a piece of furniture from the furniture seller, to barter with him, you'll have to trade other pieces of furniture.

And if you're in the position to be producing all these pieces of furniture to barter with, why aren't you just making the chair you want yourself? I understand not everything is craftable, but it does limit the usefulness of bartering when you can only trade like for like.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 02:13:01 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on April 15, 2019, 12:38:11 PM
I've traded items for items before.

It works but, the syntax is kinda funky

I mean on trading the trader one polished diamond for ten supple striped hides as opposed to the other way around.

As I understand it you can trade multiple items for one, but you can't currently trade one valuable thing for multiple items. Unless I've been completely fooled by wonky syntax.

Edit: oh I didn't think of above. Maybe an item sufficiently high over the value threshold could be accepted? Like the fur treder WOULD take that diamond because he'd be a fool not to. He could even pocket the thing as to not make every shop a general shop. This is just spitballing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 15, 2019, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 02:13:01 PM

I mean on trading the trader one polished diamond for ten supple striped hides as opposed to the other way around.


Just to springboard this into my previous point: the hide trader doesn't want diamonds. You gotta go to the stone grebber to barter that, and he don't sell hides.

Womp, womp.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 02:19:01 PM
Quote from: Namino on April 15, 2019, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 02:13:01 PM

I mean on trading the trader one polished diamond for ten supple striped hides as opposed to the other way around.


Just to springboard this into my previous point: the hide trader doesn't want diamonds. You gotta go to the stone grebber to barter that, and he don't sell hides.

Womp, womp.

I made an edit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on April 15, 2019, 03:57:52 PM
Barter, buy and sell... to pcs.

I used to barter for poisons, with desert elves (and sold it for coin, to city elves). I traveled from Allanak, to go trade things (I stole... or got from elves, who probably stole them...) to tribes and foreigners, in exchange for everything, from interesting stories and information, to tribe-only goods. Once upon a time, before GMH sponsor roles were lazy shit, there was good, regular money working as a hunter for them. I'd trade materials they wanted, for goods I needed, or things I could sell elsewhere at a huge profit. Nowdays, the minute you try to sell to them, they're acting like you're wasting their time, and as soon as you suggest goods for goods, they're not interested... easier to just pay coins, keep interaction to a minimal, and get back to trying to mudsex some trashy Fale aide.

These kinds of changes are GOOD, because the game leans upon npcs too heavily. To the exclusion of interactions. I, too, find myself unloading stuff on npcs, I could be selling to pcs, if I thought pcs had even a smidgen of interest, in spending ten minutes doing business. Nevermind haggling... why be a merchant, if you can't/won't haggle? Haggling is like dancing, and you don't need the coded skill to do it well, when it's with a pc.

The two changes will make selling goods, MUCH harder... to npcs. The less coin available means crafters have LESS COIN to spend extravagantly on materials, bribes, and fluff. The less coin available to hunter/grebber, means less "BiS gear" at a few hours played, and no other reason to need money. Less is more, and it'll be ok, if you don't have 50k in the bank, or EBON RAPTOR ARMOR on every pc. In time, you'll renew your appreciation, for when you get one piece of it. And then another. Small goals, incentives to keep on scrapping, climbing, clawing your way to the next payout.

LESS COIN = MORE CO-DEPENDENCE.

Pc to pc to pc, is NOT a bad thing.

Instead of foraging a large bag worth of gems, or hunting two beetles worth of large bags full of animal parts... find out what people WANT and THEN GO GET IT. Sell your goods to pcs, anything and everything, push it out, rather than buy mats, spam in apartment, sell to npc, do nothing merchant-like ever. People will buy your shit. Especially if they, too, are struggling to get by. A 10 'sid chisel from a pc, is a lot cheaper, than 40 'sid one from an npc. If everyone is tight on funds, they WILL go to the pc for it, because you can save a ton.

Specialize. Be the guy, gal, or crew, who gets so-and-so what they need. Other people will want to sell to so-and-so, too, but he can only buy so much... and now you have competition, which is a GOOD thing. Instead of custom crafting ULTRA SILKY GEM STUDDED ARMORED CODPIECE +5, custom craft some affordable armor, that has a quality description. Lots of the cheap, npc stock armor, has like three line descs and often, don't even specify color or fine detail. A cuirass made out of chalton, with a well-done desc? Can totally be sold to pcs. I want your variety, if you'd only fucking sell it to me, instead of the salarr npc.

I don't even do any of this anymore, because it seems, to me, like nobody is interested. It's the same humdrum... roll a pc, prioritize strength, greb/hunt/craft to wealth, buy best stuff, wait for death/retirement, do over.

It's all, imo, very soulless, and makes it hard to care about anything going on the game, ic or ooc. Maybe, it's just me that finds the current routine, to be an interest killer.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 15, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
No one is saying you shouldn't do that. But those shopkeepers exist for a reason and it'd be nice to see this turned into a more flexible system closer to the docs if we're doing overhauling already.

I imagine those shopkeepers are there for PCs that due to circumstance or timezone are playing iso. It's pretty hard to be someone's "guy" when the who command returns 10 players and you're all scattered. This is generally when you end up with hilarious pairings like a northern tribal trading with a rinthi because there's no one else playing and normally they'd want nothing to do with each other. I'll grant you PC to PC trade will nearly always be more rewarding. And that's how it should be.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on April 15, 2019, 05:01:55 PM
Armageddon does not have the playerbase to support a primarily PC to PC bartering system. Purchasing weaponry from Salarr or a mirror from Kadius took me IRL weeks before as coordinating with the merchants was so difficult.

Now imagine having to potentially wait that long for cures, or armor repair. Yes, there are likely more people proportional to the total playerbase capable of making cures than filling Kadian orders so I wouldn't anticipate the runaround to be as severe, but I would still anticipate spending a long time looking for goods, especially in the barter system.

If there's 25 people logged on, what are the odds that they can produce the hat you want, while also wanting to buy the dagger you're bartering? Pretty slim, I'd wager. In a game with 35,000 players on the server, you'd do better. That game isn't Armageddon.

Allanak has 100,000+ citizens iirc. The vast majority of the economy is NPC driven because while a few hundred of those citizens are PCs, the rest are NPCs. There aren't enough of us to simulate the economy of a large city state. PC to PC is fine, but it needs to be supplemented by a strong NPC presence for the sake of both realism (you shouldn't struggle to sell a dagger in a city of 100,000 people) and for just general playability.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cind on April 16, 2019, 02:11:17 AM
I don't get to play much, thus I don't really have time to be clanned, therefore any change that makes independence harder is not something I'll usually like. It'll often mean more time surviving and less time roleplaying for me.

Also, the way shops currently work, if you have more than five people online at any given time, you can no longer making a living selling something like tools or simple knives because it appears that the shopkeepers are now either broke or will run out of money soon. I suppose that would have happened if there had been one person online, if that person had toolmaking or knifecrafting, eventually. I assume this is part of a larger system overhaul that will make the economy more realistic for everyone, while actually giving people a reason to continue to craft.

I'm reminded of other games whose economies either work, or don't work, based on one premise; the fact that supplies and/or resellability is infinite. This means that if 4 or 40 players or 400 players are online, then you can still greb your obsidian shards, make five knives, sell them, and then buy drinks for your friends at night in the Gaj without worrying about being able to do that tomorrow, based on wonky code things and the natural insanity of other players. Is someone making forty diamond-studded ivory knives every day and selling them to the Salaari(lol) shop every day and has been for the last 10 RL hours? In all honesty, I don't see any reason why they ought not do that, except when the shopkeeper says, "Enough. I can't keep buying these, you have given me enough. Talk to my overseer if you wish to sell more to the House."

Some people, including people who play this game, really get off on making tons of money, and that's just one way of playing. I'm not speaking for myself, as I'm the one who you'll find making the simpler knives just to get ale money. Some people think this incredibly awkward game should get even harder, I think it should be catered to all the different playing styles. People who for some reason want to making thousands without spending any, and people who want advanced weapons skills. I suppose everyone has their opinion though. But, I mean, if we do get catered to, there's always city elves, that's always going to be a hard role no matter what.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on April 16, 2019, 05:41:45 AM
Shop
s

ree
tain

(eye twitch)


coins and

merchandise?


Are you trying to make us all go broke?!

or work together... damnit
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 17, 2019, 12:52:15 PM
Quote(Nessalin)
-Changes to allow race properties (from the SQL DB) to determine their abilities rather than so much of it
  being hard coded. This actually fixes several aspects to races that were never addressed.  Hopefully more
  of this in the future will give staff more flexibility and options in creating new and updating old races without
  requiring the intervention/assistance of a developer.

This is a cool change. I don't think the game can ever have enough antagonist races popping up. It might be interesting to see more mutated tribes.

I can't help but wonder what race issues this fixes but it seems this will make it easier to updates old races like city elves. Heh. Unfortunately most of the gripes with city elves are policy related not so much coded.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 17, 2019, 01:44:07 PM
Every NPC has a race.  Things like skinning tables and stats are tied to race.

This isn't necessarily about PC races.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
So would you say this is closer in cleaning up and continuing the meatcraft/hunting stuff as opposed to changing something among the PC races?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 17, 2019, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
So would you say this is closer in cleaning up and continuing the meatcraft stuff as opposed to changing something among the PC races?

I would assume its more about moving more code into a location accessible by non-coder staff.

If you tried to add a Khajit race to Arm right now, you would need to have a coder to access some of the flat files, and make changes that for all anyone knows, could break half the server if a blank line is entered.

At least, that's my assumption. More work on Coders now, so that Storytellers/Admins without code knowledge can update later.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 17, 2019, 03:11:26 PM
However it can be about the PC races so I  assume the code will make it easier to allow subguild cannibal to eventually become a possibility.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:18:30 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
So would you say this is closer in cleaning up and continuing the meatcraft/hunting stuff as opposed to changing something among the PC races?

I maintain my question, Brokkr. I think I see what you mean, as in every Tembo, Rantarri, and salt-demon is an NPC. Could you please expand on what direction this tool change will likely be taken or allow for, in regards to the playerbase?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: th3kaiser on April 17, 2019, 03:39:00 PM
Sounds like it's just general upgrading to make it easier when new races are requested. If you recall, we had some release notes about new races not too long ago. Now the builders can add in custom races with custom skinning tables on their own without resorting to anything but some quick SQL changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 17, 2019, 03:45:35 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:18:30 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:02:46 PM
So would you say this is closer in cleaning up and continuing the meatcraft/hunting stuff as opposed to changing something among the PC races?

I maintain my question, Brokkr. I think I see what you mean, as in every Tembo, Rantarri, and salt-demon is an NPC. Could you please expand on what direction this tool change will likely be taken or allow for, in regards to the playerbase?

Old diku code had the variables of races hard coded.
If you wanted to add or change, you had to shut down and manually change the code.  If you change the code, you can potentially make loads of bugs and errors.

If it isn't in the code but in an external database, you could make changes and additions on the fly and it allows more flexibility.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:53:31 PM
I get it. I'm asking what we intend to do with it. It sounds really useful for a few past projects in particular.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: th3kaiser on April 17, 2019, 04:14:25 PM
My guess, it was a thing on someone's to-do list forever. And they got it done.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 17, 2019, 05:05:41 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:53:31 PM
I get it. I'm asking what we intend to do with it. It sounds really useful for a few past projects in particular.

I feel like you're asking "why did you upgrade to Windows 10? What do you intend to do with it?"

My guess, it's a change in methods in order to reduce any bugs that may occur if there is a need to update race parameters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 05:13:41 PM
Thanks for the reminder to use the Ask The Staff thread.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on April 26, 2019, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:53:31 PM
I get it. I'm asking what we intend to do with it. It sounds really useful for a few past projects in particular.

We continue to work toward migrating all legacy DIKU flat file structures to a database.  There are a number of valuable things this allows us to do including being able to fix errors on the fly without a reboot when they are data issues.  It also allows us versatility in how we approach new features in the future when we are decoupled from limitations around flat files and flat file formatting.

Basically, think of it as continued slow and laborious work toward future-proofing the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on April 26, 2019, 04:55:51 PM
Quote from: Nathvaan on April 26, 2019, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on April 17, 2019, 03:53:31 PM
I get it. I'm asking what we intend to do with it. It sounds really useful for a few past projects in particular.

We continue to work toward migrating all legacy DIKU flat file structures to a database.  There are a number of valuable things this allows us to do including being able to fix errors on the fly without a reboot when they are data issues.  It also allows us versatility in how we approach new features in the future when we are decoupled from limitations around flat files and flat file formatting.

Basically, think of it as continued slow and laborious work toward future-proofing the game.

Appreciated. That's exactly what I was looking for.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on April 28, 2019, 04:32:14 PM
Quote
> assess sunslits
You assess a pair of staff sunslits...
...it is primarily made of wood.
...can be worn in one's hair.
...can be worn on the eyes.
...looks like it will fit you.
...will protect your vision when worn over your eyes.
...it is very light.

This is a great change and I would really love to see this for all gear that improves skill because it isn't always easy to tell and it feels OOC knowledge rather than IC.

Maybe tied in with value skill or if you have the skill itself. Not sure if all skill improving are standardize but if not maybe with an adjective to tell how much it improves something by such as a little/noticeably/greatly
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Feco on April 29, 2019, 07:24:15 AM
Coders are fucking killing it.  Fuck yeah!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on April 29, 2019, 11:24:19 AM
I always thought sunslits* provided a bonus to direction sense full stop. I've only ever seen direction sense used in a sandstorm.

Is that what this assess is talking about? Or is there sunlight damage we are all suffering that I've been oblivious to?

*sandslits? My original post got auto corrected and now I'm confused.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on May 01, 2019, 09:38:55 AM
Quote from: Cerelum on May 01, 2019, 08:38:55 AMMy fear just from seeing how I've had to run all over town and sell things to various vendors or do the buy something useful sell something barter method when they are out of coins is that we are going to have folks who are picking subguilds or even mainguilds simply to game the system in regards to cash flush business.
This has always been the case. I remember my first merchant who made it big was selling salt to an NPC that was massively being overlooked at the time to pretty decent profit (this was before the jal salt yards were introduced or other changes to the forage command). A few years back no-one was making bandages so I started turning a decent profit on those and then a few weeks later Lo and behold I've got other crafters muscling in on my NPCs.

These things come in cycles and in my experience are largely self correcting.

As for things being hard to find: it was a problem in the old system. I don't know how many characters I've hard who would give up their kingdom for either a set of lock picks or a mortar and pestle. I doubt the new system will change that. In fact, under serviced crafts could be a gold mine waiting for the right PC with coins persisting between reboots, thus making even this problem self correcting (where before it wasn't).

But I am glad to see what people's experiences are.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on May 09, 2019, 09:14:47 AM
Lol

...is poison!

The ! makes it feel like I need to get excited
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: th3kaiser on May 09, 2019, 09:30:37 AM
These changes lately are just amazing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on May 09, 2019, 09:33:20 AM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on May 09, 2019, 09:14:47 AM
Lol

...is poison!

The ! makes it feel like I need to get excited

Especially when you realize this pile of dung... is poison!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on May 09, 2019, 09:37:50 AM
Quote from: Namino on May 09, 2019, 09:33:20 AM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on May 09, 2019, 09:14:47 AM
Lol

...is poison!

The ! makes it feel like I need to get excited

Especially when you realize this pile of dung... is poison!

LOL
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on May 09, 2019, 10:01:23 AM
Quote from: Namino on May 09, 2019, 09:33:20 AM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on May 09, 2019, 09:14:47 AM
Lol

...is poison!

The ! makes it feel like I need to get excited

Especially when you realize this pile of dung... is poison!

Think Jimmy thinks he's gonna steal my girl!?
Hold dung
Poison throwing
You coat the knife with shit.
(Travel spam)
Throw knife jimmy e
(Travel spam)
(Later that day)
Tressy tressy aide says, "Did you hear Jimmy was hit my a throwing knife smeared in shit?  It ruined his shirt! But he's fine.
Think FAILED AGAIN!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: oggotale on June 05, 2019, 05:46:56 AM
"-Exits can now be set to represent ladders, which require at least one free hand to pass up/down through,
  although two free hands make the travel faster."

So, I can still climb the shield wall with my hands full but not up the storm's eye tavern?

Or is "ladder" here just a label, and even any "steep" room like the shield wall climbable rooms would be made to have "ladder" exits?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on June 05, 2019, 08:12:35 AM
Quote from: oggotale on June 05, 2019, 05:46:56 AM
"-Exits can now be set to represent ladders, which require at least one free hand to pass up/down through,
  although two free hands make the travel faster."

So, I can still climb the shield wall with my hands full but not up the storm's eye tavern?

Or is "ladder" here just a label, and even any "steep" room like the shield wall climbable rooms would be made to have "ladder" exits?

I imagine you can try to climb the shield wall if you have your hands full and the climb skill (which already penalizes you for having items in your hands), but you can climb ladders without the use of any skill.  So probably no to the second question.

Though if you hard-coded can't climb ladders with items in both hands, maybe dependent on a climb check, that does seem like an oversight.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on June 25, 2019, 12:12:57 PM
-Soldiers now more selective about who they consider a criminal based on race and race-type.


Ooooooooo
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on June 25, 2019, 12:21:51 PM
Quote from: mansa on June 25, 2019, 12:12:57 PM
-Soldiers now more selective about who they consider a criminal based on race and race-type.


Ooooooooo

The massive, scar faced half giant attempts unlatch the pretty noble lady'sbackpack.

An Allanaki soldier gulps nervously.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Synthesis on June 25, 2019, 12:53:25 PM
Quote from: Namino on June 25, 2019, 12:21:51 PM
Quote from: mansa on June 25, 2019, 12:12:57 PM
-Soldiers now more selective about who they consider a criminal based on race and race-type.


Ooooooooo

The massive, scar faced half giant attempts unlatch the pretty noble lady'sbackpack.

An Allanaki soldier gulps nervously.


Creatures also have races.

This probably means they won't hop to it and launch assaults on rats when PCs attack them, if I was to guess.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on June 25, 2019, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 25, 2019, 12:53:25 PM
This probably means they won't hop to it and launch assaults on rats when PCs attack them, if I was to guess.

But soldier-assisted rat slaying is my PC's only source of protein. :(
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on June 25, 2019, 02:04:21 PM
But watching soldiers gang pile rats when I failed to subdue and pitch them out of the tavern was my favorite Arm thing.

You attempt to grab a filthy grey rat, but it wrestles away.
A filthy grey rat bites at you, but you dodge out of the way.

129/129h 23/129m 120/120st| easily manageable | walking | unarmed | late afternoon Ocandra

A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.
A Kuraci regular viciously stabs a filthy grey rat on its head.
A filthy grey rat reels from a Kuraci regular's blow.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its hindleg.
A Kuraci regular stabs a filthy grey rat's tail, connecting hard.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.
A Kuraci regular lightly stabs a filthy grey rat's hindleg.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular solidly slashes a filthy grey rat's foreleg.
A filthy grey rat crumples to the ground.
A Kuraci regular brutally stabs a filthy grey rat on its back.


129/129h 23/129m 120/120st| easily


BAD MOVE, FOOL!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cerelum on June 25, 2019, 05:30:59 PM
I reported a bug with rats where I nearly died to soldiers.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on June 25, 2019, 05:34:25 PM

The tall, muscular man slashes the spindly half-breed's neck, wounding him.

Casually, a human Allanaki soldier sips from a tall, ceramic mug.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on June 25, 2019, 08:02:33 PM
This might be the change people have been asking for, for YEARS. Look forward to seeing it action.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on July 01, 2019, 02:05:58 PM
Quote
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Drovians
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Nilazi

Two new Drovian subclasses have been added and are now available for play.

A Nilaz subclass was added awhile ago, but was never officially announced.  So consider this that announcement, if you haven't noticed it hanging around for the last few months.

Much like the changes to the other four elemental subclasses, the re-appearance of Drovian and Nilazi elementalists can be taken IC.

(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/636c6121241bc35af0b14008b05f2d23.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on July 01, 2019, 02:32:17 PM
Yay!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: JohnMichaelHenry on July 01, 2019, 05:13:40 PM
Sounds cool. Maybe I can work on getting max karma so I can play one. But if I haven't got that last point after 17 years of playing this game, it probably ain't gonna happen for me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 01, 2019, 05:14:44 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on July 01, 2019, 05:13:40 PM
Sounds cool. Maybe I can work on getting max karma so I can play one. But if I haven't got that last point after 17 years of playing this game, it probably ain't gonna happen for me.

I would suggest to do a Karma Review.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Review

Some people just get overlooked because the staff are mostly human.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: path on July 01, 2019, 05:18:49 PM
Quote from: Veselka on July 01, 2019, 02:05:58 PM

(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/636c6121241bc35af0b14008b05f2d23.jpg)

Didn't give you permission to post those selfies I sent you.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 01, 2019, 06:38:01 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Drovians
Helpfile typo: "reigned in" --> "reined in"

Shoot, how do we actually report helpfile typos? typo command in game?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 01, 2019, 06:52:49 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 01, 2019, 06:38:01 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Drovians
Helpfile typo: "reigned in" --> "reined in"

Shoot, how do we actually report helpfile typos? typo command in game?
Use the request tool and website/bug
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: number13 on July 01, 2019, 07:36:00 PM
Hopefully the new Drovians have been reworked so that they don't have some of the anti-fun elements of the old Drovians.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on July 01, 2019, 07:51:20 PM
I was quite critical of the loss of Drovians, Nilazi and Elkrosians. Fire/Water/Earth/Wind mages are the most generic of the generic and that's what we had left with the removal of these elements. I'm very glad to see the return of my favourite class (Drovians) along with Nilazi (which I did notice were returned some time ago but didn't comment on it at the time).

Thank you to staff for being open to returning these elements of the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Eyeball on July 02, 2019, 01:21:25 AM
I hope the Drovians have had a certain plot-eviscerating spell removed and a few other spells added in to compensate.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on July 02, 2019, 04:39:50 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on July 02, 2019, 01:21:25 AM
I hope the Drovians have had a certain plot-eviscerating spell removed and a few other spells added in to compensate.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: flurry on July 02, 2019, 06:50:32 AM
Very happy that 8) Drovians 8) are back.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on July 02, 2019, 03:57:29 PM
HIDE YO SECRETS
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 02, 2019, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: Veselka on July 02, 2019, 03:57:29 PM
HIDE YO SECRETS

HIDE YO SPICE
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on July 02, 2019, 08:56:35 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 02, 2019, 04:14:40 PM
Quote from: Veselka on July 02, 2019, 03:57:29 PM
HIDE YO SECRETS

HIDE YO SPICE

AND HIDE YO MATE





cause they shadowin errybody out here
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on July 03, 2019, 12:49:43 PM
Now all that's left is elkro. I can't wait to get the lightning slingers back.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on July 03, 2019, 04:55:38 PM
No plans at this point to bring them back.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on July 03, 2019, 05:56:21 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 03, 2019, 04:55:38 PM
No plans at this point to bring them back.

What?!?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Marauder Moe on July 04, 2019, 01:49:11 AM
Hmmm.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on July 04, 2019, 02:40:29 AM
Well, I was hoping that nilazi and drov would not be back...yet here they are...I figure since I don't want elkros either, they will be along.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on July 04, 2019, 02:58:08 AM
Arguing on the GDB between Players and Staff alike:

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/07f8a7a77746228cdaf04bd0503b55d9/tumblr_oq9uxtHFQA1qmob6ro1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on July 06, 2019, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Veselka on July 04, 2019, 02:58:08 AM
Arguing on the GDB between Players and Staff alike:

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/07f8a7a77746228cdaf04bd0503b55d9/tumblr_oq9uxtHFQA1qmob6ro1_500.gif)

I don't think we're really arguing here.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on September 16, 2019, 01:20:53 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1037544.html#msg1037544
-Damage taken by characters now creates a wound on the character that represents the kind of damage that dealt the wound.
-When the code does not have information about the type of damage dealt the would is described simply as a 'wound'.
-Wounds have words describing how much damage the wound currently accounts for.
-As characters regain hit points their wounds go down in value and become less severe.
-Wounds on a character can be viewed with the assess command using the verbose option
  -assess -v <character>
  -Only the top 5 wounds will be displayed
-When a character is fully healed all remaining wounds will be removed.
-When a character dies the corpse that results will have all of the characters woulds transferred to it.
  The top 5 wounds can be viewed by looking at the wounds.
  -look corpse's wounds
-Ldescs now display 'wounded' instead of 'bleeding' to make it a bit more generic.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Wounds

holy shit
Excited to see how this goes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Medena on September 16, 2019, 01:29:15 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Wounds

This sounds amazing!!  I don't currently have a PC but I feel like making one just so I can get wounded.  :-p
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on September 16, 2019, 01:31:15 PM
Quote from: Medena on September 16, 2019, 01:29:15 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Wounds

This sounds amazing!!  I don't currently have a PC but I feel like making one just so I can get wounded.  :-p

This is awesome! It makes investigating PC death via wound type a possibility now without staff intervention!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on September 16, 2019, 03:22:36 PM
Seriously Freakin' awesome update! Can't wait to see it for myself.. heck, might go kill a bunch of people right now!  ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Saiseiki on September 16, 2019, 03:38:05 PM
Wow!  What a neat addition.  Will be great for "healer-type" rp.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on September 16, 2019, 04:35:39 PM
Can't wait for my PC to get their face smashed in!

Edit: After seeing it in action, super cool. I like it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Refugee on September 16, 2019, 05:27:00 PM
Very cool!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on September 16, 2019, 05:51:25 PM
I heart you staff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bogre on September 16, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
This is a great addition!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on September 16, 2019, 07:35:08 PM
It does seem like any 'wound' type (puncture, bruise, etc) at the moment also makes a "wound" [generic] in the same area, meaning that the top 5 worst wounds shown are actually the top... 2? 3? Because "a worrying puncture" on the chest will also have "a worrying wound" on the next/prior line.

Not sure if this is intentional or not.

Otherwise, good addition. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: AdamBlue on September 17, 2019, 04:08:53 AM
I think special priority should be put on the 'fatal blow', and maybe give a use for 'assess' as a skill. 'You realize that the fatal wound was likely the stab to the back.'
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on September 17, 2019, 05:18:23 AM
Quote from: AdamBlue on September 17, 2019, 04:08:53 AM
I think special priority should be put on the 'fatal blow', and maybe give a use for 'assess' as a skill. 'You realize that the fatal wound was likely the stab to the back.'

Idea:

Messing with Assess and making it an actual skill rather than an input function might be fussy.
To tell how someone died in D&D, you usually use the Heal skill, if it's a bit vague.

Why not tie "fatal blow" determination to the Bandage skill, which is the closest we have to Heal? It'd work the same as a few other functions unlocked by high-levelled other skills, and give medics a fun social role other than just tossing out tablets and sitting in the backlines.

So anyone can see "mm, he took a big bash to the head and a jab to the neck, yadda yadda" but only your local medic can determine "yep, the thing that killed him was the bash to the head - so I'd assume the jab was probably with a poisoned knife."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 17, 2019, 09:16:59 AM
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on September 16, 2019, 07:35:08 PM
It does seem like any 'wound' type (puncture, bruise, etc) at the moment also makes a "wound" [generic] in the same area, meaning that the top 5 worst wounds shown are actually the top... 2? 3? Because "a worrying puncture" on the chest will also have "a worrying wound" on the next/prior line.

Not sure if this is intentional or not.

Otherwise, good addition. :)

This was going to be my feedback. I hit something in the "tail" location, and only that location, and they had a waist wound (assuming waist is the restrung tail) AND a body wound. While it makes some sort of sense, they were only hit once.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: nessalin on September 17, 2019, 12:27:55 PM
Double wound issue and some other bugs will be addressed next reboot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nile on September 18, 2019, 08:05:48 AM
Loving the wound code. Makes for much better RP. Well done team!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on September 18, 2019, 04:14:35 PM
Does getting hit on an area that is already wounded cause extra damage?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on September 19, 2019, 05:56:53 AM
Quote from: Krath on September 18, 2019, 04:14:35 PM
Does getting hit on an area that is already wounded cause extra damage?

It does not.  That is not to say it won't in the future.  As with all new features the development is iterative.  When all bugs are worked out for the current iteration we will look into expanding the features as time permits.  This kind of thing, among others, might be included in the future.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on September 19, 2019, 06:03:00 AM
Quote from: Nathvaan on September 19, 2019, 05:56:53 AM
Quote from: Krath on September 18, 2019, 04:14:35 PM
Does getting hit on an area that is already wounded cause extra damage?

It does not.  That is not to say it won't in the future.  As with all new features the development is iterative.  When all bugs are worked out for the current iteration we will look into expanding the features as time permits.  This kind of thing, among others, might be included in the future.

Hauwke-y like-y.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RogueGunslinger on September 19, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Imagine if you could wound something til it came off. Like if the dmg to the limb is greater than total hitpoints or something like that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on September 19, 2019, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 19, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Imagine if you could wound something til it came off. Like if the dmg to the limb is greater than total hitpoints or something like that.

Only if I were given an "aim head/arm/torso/legs" option to specifically focus on obliterating your limbs.

I'm already digging the implications of knowing HOW something was killed. Even if its just "Someone with a longblade" or "some drunken idiot in a fist fight"
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on September 20, 2019, 01:06:57 AM
I really wouldn't like wounded areas causing extra damage if hit again. At least, not if it was major.
A minor bonus would be fine, but having to track your own wounds or be critted by a rat bite that'd usually bounce off would be annoying. Plus make sparring weird.

A 10% bonus would be fine. A 50% or double etc would be hell, and make combat way more RNG, please no.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Incognito on September 20, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
I've been away from Arm for over a year now, and just restarted this week, and the first thing I noticed, of course, is the huge amount of changes that have been introduced.

We do have the Release Notes post, that gives updates as they go in, periodically, but I was thinking if it'd be possible to have two master lists (lets call them IC Change Log and OOC Change Log) - which list all of the changes that have gone in over the years, for players to see at one glance.

For example, the IC Change Log could be along the lines of:
Date - Clan XYZ closed for play.
Date - Clan XYZ reopened for play.
Date - Clan ABC permanently removed from play.
Date - Clan JKL made virtual.
Date - Tuluk closed for play.

And, similarly, the OOC Change Log could be along the lines of:
Date - Changes to skill XYZ - Details
Date - Changes to Guild X - Details
Date - Guild Y removed.
Date - ESG H/I/J added instead of Guild Y.
Date - Bug so and so quashed - Details.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that Staff has this recorded somewhere (possibly in different listings), so yeah, it will require someone from Staff to volunteer to do it..... but the upside would be that any returning players would be able to get an up-to-date scenario of where the game currently is, vis-a-vis when they'd left. Although, I will say, it'd be really cool to go through the entire list and see how the game has changed over the years, both ICLY and OOCLY.

It's just a suggestion - I know I definitely should not expect it to happen anytime soon, nor is it fair to return to the game after a long hiatus and immediately ask for someone else to do something :) So maybe someone could consider it as a project for when they've got some extra free time on hand?

In any case, it's always great to come back to Arm, and it's always daunting to take in all the changes and get reacclimatized with the game and the World!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on September 21, 2019, 10:50:24 AM
>threaten bluff


I didn't know how much I actually wanted this.  Thanks Brokkr and Nessalin!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Heade on September 21, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
>Raised age of adulthood from 13 to 16

Meh, I don't really feel strongly about this because I never play PCs that young, but I don't know why this was necessary.

During the time periods of earth that most align with the development in arm, people often married in their early teens, and kings were considered "men", able to rule without a regent at 13. This change just feels like another surrender to modern PC culture, when we're playing a game based on a place and time that shouldn't reflect that culture.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on September 21, 2019, 11:54:21 AM
Why do you care
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: AdamBlue on September 21, 2019, 12:04:55 PM
Supposed to represent a gritty world far removed from our own. Real life influencing a game world in any way shouldn't be applicable, 's all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: rinthrat on September 21, 2019, 12:09:37 PM
I'd just like to know what happens with existing PCs.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 21, 2019, 12:35:54 PM
It is a gritty world far removed from our own. One on which people turn adults at sixteen, not thirteen like at some point in some cultures on our own world. There are still children about and all over, PCs just aren't playing them anymore.
Title: Re: Release Notes and finger tats!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 21, 2019, 01:05:53 PM
Also I love the finger tat locs! Yet having used two of the new finger slots, I'd suggest making them line up with existing wear locs (right index finger, right middle finger, right ring finger, right pinkie, right thumb) instead of "right finger, right finger 1, right finger 2, etc." I'm not really sure which finger is which, and I can also have a tattoo on my 'right finger 2' and also ring items on all my fingers and also a missing digit on 'right finger 3' as it is. Thanks!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on September 21, 2019, 01:18:57 PM
SICK UPDATE
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on September 21, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
Arm is just getting better and better! Kudos to the staff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on September 21, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
-syntax: threaten <character> [bluff|bash|subdue|kill]

Love this change. Is there any chance we could get this expanded to threaten <character>  [backstab|sap|bluff|bash|subdue|kill]?

Enforcers would certainly benefit from the option.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on September 21, 2019, 02:57:01 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on September 21, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
-syntax: threaten <character> [bluff|bash|subdue|kill]

Love this change. Is there any chance we could get this expanded to threaten <character>  [backstab|sap|bluff|bash|subdue|kill]?

Enforcers would certainly benefit from the option.
Sap + backstab have delays, so by the time they actually trigger I'm pretty sure the person would be gone (Assuming they walked out of the room).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on September 21, 2019, 03:04:56 PM
There's two ways I could see this being delt with.

-Buff threaten so that walking out of the room causes a delay based on skill.
-Remove the delay for threaten induced backstabs/sap. If someone's used threaten bs/sap then they've already given up the the coded advantage by not just having used sap/backstab from stealth, and I don't think they should be punished for that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on September 21, 2019, 03:11:30 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on September 21, 2019, 03:04:56 PM
There's two ways I could see this being delt with.

-Buff threaten so that walking out of the room causes a delay based on skill.
-Remove the delay for threaten induced backstabs/sap. If someone's used threaten bs/sap then they've already given up the the coded advantage by not just having used sap/backstab from stealth, and I don't think they should be punished for that.

Though they're often used pretty loosey goosey in this regard, backstab and sap are supposed to be surprise attacks. You can't threaten someone openly and then surprise them after that fact when they're100% aware of your intentions and presumably watching you approach, unless you're visualizing a DBZ teleport nothing personnel kid karate chops to the nape of the neck.

Which I guess would be funny.

(http://mmafury.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Precise-anime-karate-chop-to-the-neck-GIF.gif)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on September 21, 2019, 03:15:49 PM
The helpfile for backstab describes it as a critical hit. You can backstab someone that's currently in a fight, aware of your presence and the immediate danger they're in, that's not an oversight, it's a feature.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on September 21, 2019, 03:19:02 PM
QuoteNeedless to say - this has prompted a lot of discussion on the staff side of things.

We're in a bind, however - as this is 'virgin territory' - the use of the backstab skill in such a way isn't something we've experienced a lot over the history of Armageddon. Mostly due to the difficulty in raising such a skill and the novelty of having a class/subclass combination that can pull off such actions.

The overall feeling is that the skill's utility outside of a "sneak attack" needs to be re-evaluated. We also need to more closely monitor how PCs are using these skills to find out ways to restrict them codedly instead of having to introduce an 'honour system' players need to follow.

Just because it's possible to backstab someone actively fighting you does not mean it was intended that way.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 21, 2019, 03:27:29 PM
You can definitely threaten someone openly and then 'critically' strike them without them being ready for it. Being aware of an incoming strike doesn't mean someone is always aware of a strike from a different direction, even coming from the same fighter. Misdirection is the basis of sparring, and a solid touch when someone is focused on you striking them another way or in another place can put someone unconscious or terribly off-balance.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on September 21, 2019, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on September 21, 2019, 03:27:29 PM
You can definitely threaten someone openly and then 'critically' strike them without them being ready for it. Being aware of an incoming strike doesn't mean someone is always aware of a strike from a different direction, even coming from the same fighter. Misdirection is the basis of sparring, and a solid touch when someone is focused on you striking them another way or in another place can put someone unconscious or terribly off-balance.

That's not the intended function of those skills. The fact that staff have discussed ways to curtail the ability to backstab people who are aware of your hostile intentions is ample evidence of that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 21, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
Quote from: Namino on September 21, 2019, 03:34:26 PM
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on September 21, 2019, 03:27:29 PM
You can definitely threaten someone openly and then 'critically' strike them without them being ready for it. Being aware of an incoming strike doesn't mean someone is always aware of a strike from a different direction, even coming from the same fighter. Misdirection is the basis of sparring, and a solid touch when someone is focused on you striking them another way or in another place can put someone unconscious or terribly off-balance.

That's not the intended function of those skills. The fact that staff have discussed ways to curtail the ability to backstab people who are aware of your hostile intentions is ample evidence of that.

I was responding to the assertion that one would need to be in an anime to strike someone without them expecting it, even if they were aware that they were being threatened.

As it is, the help file contradicts any assumption that someone cannot be aware of you as an entity. Talking on the boards doesn't change the established rules in the help file. You do not need to be hidden. You can attack people fighting, at a difficulty increase. Threatening someone with a backstab or sap could be as simple as the threatener letting the victim think they called their bluff and letting them walk on - before striking them in the side of the head. As someone noted, you've already given up your surprise there by letting your victim know you intend to attack them - and opening yourself up to pre-emptive violence or action.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on September 21, 2019, 04:03:20 PM
The reason you can backstab while vis is because it allows for socially engineered surprise attacks (reaching for my coinpurse.... oh wait it was a shiv! *stick*) rather than exclusively restricting the skill to a jump outta the shadows batman move.

Unfortunately there's no current coded metric to gauge how aware of your hostile intentions another PC is. The whole 'it's a strike coming from a direction they're not anticipating' is less true than it being a strike they're not anticipating at all.

If it was simple misdirection then you could backstab while codedly in combat instead of having to disengage stab disengage Stab for the current cheese against an occupied target.

Misdirection is part of sparring. Namely it's probably already part of auto fighting unless you want me to think our characters are going "swinging left to right at your head now get reeeeeeady" during their normal attacks. Backstab is when your target isn't mounting any defense because they don't even realize they're under attack, be it because they don't know you're there or because they don't know you have hostile intent.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dune Bunny on September 21, 2019, 06:17:38 PM
Finger tats is awesome!

Any chance we'll ever see arms/forearms as left arm/right arm, left forearm/right forearm for tattoo locations? Gotta have one arm for the faces of slain enemies, and the other for slain friends. (Hey, sometimes they do cross, but not always!)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on September 22, 2019, 11:24:10 AM
I think the age thing is mildly amusing...I mean, I don't really care what actual number it is set at...as long as the coded affects of age when starting a PC remains the same for say a 16 year old as if they had started at 13. Because the age number is meaningless.

Also, By the math, if you assume that the zalanthan hour is the same as an earth hour then even a 16 year old is only 11 earth years old. Of course it could be the other way around and a 13 year old zalanthan might be 22 earth years old. The entire beginning premise was mildly silly and all of it pointless. But hey, likely took staff a few seconds to fix something that was drawing stupid complaints/comments...So I guess to that I am for it.

Just think, If you were born on mars and 26 earth years old you would not even be 13 yet. :)

I am more interested on the "how game treats manifested verses unmanifested mages" I was unaware that being manifested or not was a coded thing.
Where is that documented?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lutagar on September 22, 2019, 11:28:52 AM
Quote from: X-D on September 22, 2019, 11:24:10 AM
I am more interested on the "how game treats manifested verses unmanifested mages" I was unaware that being manifested or not was a coded thing.
Where is that documented?

It's not a coded thing, it just means you're playing a character with an elementalist subclass that's unaware they have magick.

Since they're not aware no one else can be aware either so you can grind your mundane skills to a survivable level before the hunting inevitably starts.


Nevermind. I see what you mean. This is a guess, but maybe certain interactions with magic behave differently if you've never casted before?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nathvaan on September 22, 2019, 12:44:34 PM
Quote from: Lutagar on September 22, 2019, 11:28:52 AM
Quote from: X-D on September 22, 2019, 11:24:10 AM
I am more interested on the "how game treats manifested verses unmanifested mages" I was unaware that being manifested or not was a coded thing.
Where is that documented?

It's not a coded thing, it just means you're playing a character with an elementalist subclass that's unaware they have magick.

Since they're not aware no one else can be aware either so you can grind your mundane skills to a survivable level before the hunting inevitably starts.


Nevermind. I see what you mean. This is a guess, but maybe certain interactions with magic behave differently if you've never casted before?

A change was made some time ago to codedly indicate manifestation in order to give options to a player who wishes to play without the possibility of being 'outed by the code' as a magicker until they manifest their abilities. There are a few fringe cases we have run into in the past that unfairly outed characters as magickers. 

This bug fix was to include the manifested state for when a character chooses to get an Allanak gem before entering the game when getting gear.  This indicates that in the character's past they went to a templar to 'register' as a caster therefore consider themselves a magicker.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on September 22, 2019, 12:59:59 PM
What happens when someone manifests IG, but has not cast a single spell yet? It seems common enough that people just manifest by emoting some cantrips, especially inside of cities.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on September 22, 2019, 04:37:40 PM
So...this is a state a player has to ask for before aping PC? IE request tool?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on September 22, 2019, 04:40:28 PM
It's just a toggle specifically for whether or not you're entering the game already wearing a gem, ie, declared as manifested.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nameless Face on September 22, 2019, 05:52:11 PM
I am confuzzled.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on September 22, 2019, 06:23:10 PM
There are ways of stuff, and this prevents that stuff from being a thing that happens if it should not happen.

This is my understanding of it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on September 22, 2019, 10:27:31 PM
If you get the gem in the Allanak starter room, you are now considered manifested, from a code perspective.  If you don't, you will enter the game as un-manifested.  At some point (intentionally nebulous) magick use will cause your character to be considered manifested.  If you are not manifested, there are some very specific things that will work differently for your character.

As for threaten, I intentionally kept it to things that don't have any delay before skill use (thus no backstab/sap) and that you had to be close to do (thus no charge).  Threaten isn't meant as a mechanism to bypass delay like backstab/sap cause the attacker beforehand and there is some insanely twinky behavior that would be possible if we had allowed it (think shadowing someone that is walking suddenly and slapping a threaten on them to backstab them rather than waiting for them to stop).  This change should give threaten some more teeth, make it a little more strategic in that the person threatened won't know exactly what will happen, and hopefully offer the attacker ways to deal with the issue of folks simply fleeing while you are in kill lag.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on September 22, 2019, 11:41:19 PM
Nice to know.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on September 29, 2019, 11:16:51 AM
Newest release re: karma regen, and 1-karma extended subguilds not needing to "use up" that 1st karma point - is AWESOME.

Not so sure about the mob chasing a target further than previously. Certain critters will already follow you longer than it takes for your mount to tire. I think that should be sufficient! I'll remain cautiously optimistic til I test it out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: kahuna on September 29, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on September 29, 2019, 11:16:51 AM
Newest release re: karma regen, and 1-karma extended subguilds not needing to "use up" that 1st karma point - is AWESOME.

Not so sure about the mob chasing a target further than previously. Certain critters will already follow you longer than it takes for your mount to tire. I think that should be sufficient! I'll remain cautiously optimistic til I test it out.

All ESGs were moved to 1. There are no more 2-karma (mundane) ESGs if I'm reading the update correctly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on September 29, 2019, 11:20:14 AM
Quote from: kahuna on September 29, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on September 29, 2019, 11:16:51 AM
Newest release re: karma regen, and 1-karma extended subguilds not needing to "use up" that 1st karma point - is AWESOME.

Not so sure about the mob chasing a target further than previously. Certain critters will already follow you longer than it takes for your mount to tire. I think that should be sufficient! I'll remain cautiously optimistic til I test it out.

All ESGs were moved to 1. There are no more 2-karma (mundane) ESGs if I'm reading the update correctly.

I think I updated my mapping correctly:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,34069.msg1030833.html#msg1030833
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on September 29, 2019, 11:23:02 AM
Quote from: kahuna on September 29, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on September 29, 2019, 11:16:51 AM
Newest release re: karma regen, and 1-karma extended subguilds not needing to "use up" that 1st karma point - is AWESOME.

Not so sure about the mob chasing a target further than previously. Certain critters will already follow you longer than it takes for your mount to tire. I think that should be sufficient! I'll remain cautiously optimistic til I test it out.

All ESGs were moved to 1. There are no more 2-karma (mundane) ESGs if I'm reading the update correctly.

Yes, all the mundane ones are now 1 karma. But the point is - that karma point is not deducted from your available max karma, if you choose to play one of those characters. It's like it was, when karma first rolled out. You just have to "have" that point, if you want to play that role. Or you can special app it.

But there's no more 30 day waiting period before you can play another one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on September 29, 2019, 12:04:02 PM
This will encourage using mundane subclasses instead of magick subclasses, which I highly endorse.

Every Amos and Malik being a secret witch gets old, but why would you waste ESG points on mundanes?

Good change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on September 29, 2019, 01:01:08 PM
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/NEvPzZ8bd1V4Y/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on September 29, 2019, 01:39:00 PM
Bruh sound effect number 3.

Thems some good changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on September 29, 2019, 03:16:56 PM
Fantastic change!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on September 29, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
gg Staff.  Little sad I can't use these options with my current character but next time!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on October 02, 2019, 10:47:51 AM
Thanks for posting the recent updates and the role call on the site with links to the threads!  Keep it up staff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vex on October 02, 2019, 03:02:11 PM
The changes to karma subs, were a good one. Well done.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nameless Face on October 07, 2019, 12:40:35 PM
-Fixed a bug in half-elf tracks, they now leave tracks corresponding to the race they picked to look the most like in char gen.

HUGE improvement.  I had the hardest time justifying how a tracker could always spot a breed, even if no one else could.  Um... except for some bouncers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 07, 2019, 03:50:55 PM
- Made Kiyet slightly smarter.

Anyone needs extra dread? I'm full up.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Shalooonsh on October 07, 2019, 03:59:14 PM
Quote from: Dar on October 07, 2019, 03:50:55 PM
- Made Kiyet slightly smarter.

Anyone needs extra dread? I'm full up.

>em smiles quietly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Gentleboy on October 07, 2019, 04:47:33 PM
Now my hidden breeds stay hidden. Bless
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: azuriolinist on October 09, 2019, 01:26:17 AM
omg, YES

Quote
- All mundane extended subclasses have been moved to 1 usable karma required to select in character generation.
- All mundane extended subclasses do not use any karma when selecting them.

I love you guys.

Quote
- Added communication to the player on character login indicating an approximate number of days (within ~1-day margin) until karma regen.

<3

And a revamped wound system. These are all amazing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on October 14, 2019, 02:09:13 PM
Quote-Fixed a bug in blowgun/dart damage, now capped at 1hp as intended.

While I always understood that blowguns should probably do significantly less damage than bows and crossbows, I am not sure it should be this little, and capped in such a way to effectively turn this skill into a poison delivery tool. I believe as long as you hit, you have the same chance to poison.

The biggest issue I have with this is that this makes a lot of cool aspects of blowgun skill somewhat moot. For example, the darts you use, the blowgun you use, your skill and agility(+spice).

Again never thought blowguns should do tons of damage and nowhere near half kill anyone but should still do a bit of damage based on the same factors that effect archery/crossbows/slings.




Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 14, 2019, 02:59:37 PM
Blowguns/crowsbows/bows/slings are not just the same skills re-skinned.  They all have their quirks, some of which are beneficial and some of which are not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on October 14, 2019, 04:13:48 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 14, 2019, 02:59:37 PM
Blowguns/crowsbows/bows/slings are not just the same skills re-skinned.  They all have their quirks, some of which are beneficial and some of which are not.

Not disputing this, but I think many of the quirks between these skills are already established.

I just think its enough to have a significantly lower damage threshold(10-20hp~), while still taking into account agility/skill/gear making the skill more multi-dimensional. All this is currently lost by capping the damage of blowguns down to 1hp regardless of all these other factors.

Poisoning still seems to be static chance if hit occurs, and maybe its just been my luck/character but you can hit fairly often soon as the skill pops up already. :-\
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 14, 2019, 04:20:54 PM
When you're using the blowguns. You care about three things.

One is whether, or not you'll hit.
Second is whether or not the hit will carry the poison.
What is the third one? It's not the damage that the dart incurs.

As long as stats, skill, and gear help with those three. Then it should be good.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on October 14, 2019, 04:51:04 PM
It's a dart, a tiny little thing designed to maximize the chance of poison delivery. It's thin, like a needle. Getting hit with a needle isn't going to cause enough damage that I would fear for the wound it caused.

I fully agree with them doing only a single point of damage, so long as it goes through armor.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on October 14, 2019, 08:42:56 PM
Just repeating others. IRL the only things blowguns are a threat to without poison is very small animals, like sparrows, frogs, small lizards, insects etc. Anything that needle can skewer...and even then, if the dart does not imbed in wood or dirt that animal is going to get away and be unlikely to die. They are in fact nothing more then a poison delivery system. I am sure that IRL a normal human could take likely hundreds of darts without being much more then REALLY pissed off. Assuming not poisoned of course.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on October 14, 2019, 11:37:10 PM
Now...as to the other ranged changes...well, mob changes verses ranged...yeah...do not like in current form.

Firstly...As an avid bow hunter IRL I can tell you that 99% of animals run when skewered with an arrow. Even the few that are known to attack only do so sometimes...like 10-20%. Either way you normally only get one shot...which is the only thing realistic about the current code. BUT one shot is all it takes when skewering any vital area...Head/neck/torso. Sometimes it is a few seconds, sometimes a few minutes.

Oh, I know, this is Zalanthas, not RL blah blah, but it is just downright silly when you shoot a tregil in the head and not only does it not die or even slow down but it will chase you for miles. Carru...tembo bahamet...fine...hairless raccoon...come on now.

So, I have a question...are there plans to bring ranged damage/effects more in line with this new "realism"?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 12:10:43 AM
If you mean upping the damage so you can one-shot more stuff....no?

Sitting there shooting multiple arrows at something with no reaction was sort of....meh.  And one of the contributors to archery being so easy.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on October 15, 2019, 12:58:39 AM
I am not arguing against the npcs doing "something". It has always seemed odd that they did not. Still, the skill itself is still based on when they did nothing. Which makes this a major nerf and unrealistic going the other direction now.

And I am not thinking nearly so one dimension as upping damage...would it be more realistic...sure, but also rather game breaking, specially on the PVP side, ranged is plenty strong there.

No, I am asking that it not simply be a "this causes that 100% of the time".

You have any number of options...most should be rather easy.

For instance, Throw at least has an affect that can prevent the auto-charge, assuming high enough skill/damage. Why not give archery/crossbow and sling something as well? It could be as in depth as having npcs react differently depending on where hit+ damage taken. Middle skill/damage shot to the head from bow/crossbow, animal runs randomly for x# rooms. Body/neck gets the flee if it sees you even 2 rooms away, any other spot CHARGE.

Sling middle skill/damage shot to the head, npc is addled, put in intoxication code...it still comes after you but can fall down and not gonna fight very well.

OR

On less in depth solutions....normally not agro simply GTFO and agro notice you and come to munch. If damage greater then x%hp they all run and become autoflee when in sight or some other status affect.

Many things possible other then making the skill(s) worthless outside PVP.

(edit) And I would apply such to NPC only...at least in the beginning ;)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on October 15, 2019, 01:18:05 AM
I like the dart change.  Darts doing like 30 - 40 hp was a bit ridiculous. 

I will say having tregil and skeet chase you for like 15 - 20 squares is a little much and almost worse than the stalk code.  I've had creatures that I've completely lost sight of continue to chase.  I think it needs to be toned down a bit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ScramblesForPurchase on October 15, 2019, 01:28:20 AM
The point of hunting with a bow seems to be moot following the change. If everything I shoot insta-chases me... I might as well just melee the thing. I have also had a kagor follow me for 30 room tiles and just.. yeah it feels a bit extreme. Some variance would be nice. A chance to charge and a chance to flee or move to a difference tile. So it feels like you are 'hunting' and being evaded perhaps.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on October 15, 2019, 01:32:46 AM
Quote from: ScramblesForPurchase on October 15, 2019, 01:28:20 AM
The point of hunting with a bow seems to be moot following the change. If everything I shoot insta-chases me... I might as well just melee the thing. I have also had a kagor follow me for 30 room tiles and just.. yeah it feels a bit extreme. Some variance would be nice. A chance to charge and a chance to flee or move to a difference tile. So it feels like you are 'hunting' and being evaded perhaps.

Yeah I was going to say 30 too but I was like... am I imagining it but I don't think I am.  It also may not seem like much but it makes even like a tandu deadly.  If you realize you're beat at 70 hp and they get an attack on you and you're trying to get on a mount or they get an attack adjacent to another tandu and now you have two and they're chasing you until you and your mount are tired.  Like... it's a little much.  I think the current chasing is just way way too much.  Like 5 squares okay.  Maybe ten.  But 30?  Even after they've lost sight of you?  It's a bit much, and I was referring to melee combat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Erythil on October 15, 2019, 01:46:04 AM
Compromise suggestions:

1.  Mobs do not aggro from being shot with arrows until they reach a set % of HP.

2.  Mobs have a perception check roll dependent on species-dependent factors as to whether or not they will charge, making some races more dangerous to hunt with bows. 

3.  Perhaps herbivores will seek to flee in the opposite direction of the arrows instead of engaging, making archery useful for taking down certain types of less violent creature.

Is it just me, though, or are mobs generally doing more melee damage now too?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on October 15, 2019, 01:46:51 AM
Also....(and I have not fully tested yet) Throw seems rather buggy now.

I have been getting this.

throw dagger tregil east
You throw and hit the tregil in the foot.
l e
A tregil is sitting here, profusely wounded.
throw dagger tregil e
It hits him in the head
l e
A tregil is sitting here, profusely wounded.
throw dagger tregil e
It hits him in the torso.
l e
A tregil is sitting here, profusely wounded.

Now, if the tregil stands up and I throw it dies.

And I have had this happen more then once on different animals. And we are not talking low skill here either....6 knives at turaal after the first put it on the ground and near death.



Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ScramblesForPurchase on October 15, 2019, 02:57:56 AM
Quote from: Erythil on October 15, 2019, 01:46:04 AM
Is it just me, though, or are mobs generally doing more melee damage now too?

At least one mid-level mob has started punching through my defense and landing hits for notably higher damage, to the degree that I felt I lost 5-10 days played worth of ability to fight when I started encountering it. Three separate times so not just a random uber stat roll.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on October 15, 2019, 06:40:50 AM
For wild animals fleeing/hiding seems like it makes more sense than attacking from a realism standpoint.

From a game standpoint, it still makes the skill harder to train, but still makes it a useful hunting skill for hunting classes. It also then dovetails nicely with the other skills the hunting classes get, like hunt and scan. It turns hunting into actually hunting.

Otherwise, you might as well stick with the top two tiers of combat classes when making a hunting character, because it's more melee combat than stalking prey. 

Also, with this change, delay for aiming should be reduced. This change means that kiting is a necessary tactic for ranged oriented hunters which is near impossible with the aim-lag.

Another reasonable change that would keep archery useful is a 'cripple' type effect that slows movement down after you've been shot or wounded. This would be fun for PvP as well.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: kahuna on October 15, 2019, 09:06:29 AM
The archery changes are fantastic. Makes it way more dangerous (as it should be). The idea that you can sit back and just shoot anything and have it sit there like a robot and die was very unrealistic.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on October 15, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
Quote from: kahuna on October 15, 2019, 09:06:29 AM
The archery changes are fantastic. Makes it way more dangerous (as it should be). The idea that you can sit back and just shoot anything and have it sit there like a robot and die was very unrealistic.

Yes, but shooting a bear with an arrow should make more hunting sense than charging it with a spear. A one-arrow solution, as shooting a bear works in RL, doesn't make sense game-wise, but something that reflects the idea.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 15, 2019, 10:12:15 AM
It really depends on what the game designers want to achieve.

Do they want to make hunting more challenging for the rewards they gain? Then okey. Hunting by bow and arrow is too safe and things 'have' to be made more dangerous.

Do they want to make hunting more realistic? Then no. If an animal first reaction upon being shot is to instantly identify the shooter and charge towards them, it is the 'opposite' of realistic. You could say that the Mantis and Gith would do it. You could say that humanoids would do it in general. But other animals? Name an animal. Any animal on earth that upon being shot by an arrow from a hundred feet (A negligible distance really) would instantly identify the human to be the source of the arrow and charge "towards" them.  Standing still while peppered with arrows while entirely unrealistic, is 'more' realistic then charging towards the archer.


May I suggest a roll for every arrow shot? So the animal would have 70% of fleeing a room upon being shot. 20% of fleeing multiple rooms. And 10% of charging the attacker.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on October 15, 2019, 10:33:55 AM
I'm so happy that it sounds like hunting is no longer an arrow plink fest. That said, I agree that it would make more sense if predators+carru charged but game animals has some sort of random flee script instituted for X amount of time.

As someone who has hunted deer, and has family that's hunted bear and moose, I can tell you we've had some very different experiences.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ScramblesForPurchase on October 15, 2019, 10:37:22 AM
I would also suggest that perhaps something as simple as making NPC's move more frequently might achieve the needed realism/difficulty for hunting, without changing anything else. If NPC's changed tiles more often shooting them would be far less safe (as was the case with certain animals already) and it would also make spotting something and just "going around it" less viable.

Barring that I like Dar's suggestion of establishing a % chance for reactions, like of they flee or charge.

You could also set it up that shooting an NPC just prompts them move to a random tile in any direction they can, to simulate that effect.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nameless Face on October 15, 2019, 11:45:45 AM
I think that part of the issue might be to make archery not so darn easy to skill up.

Instant fleeing a bit isn't enough of a deterrent.  PCs would just ride it down and plink again after a couple of minutes.

A prey animal, instead of charging, could just go on alert.  It would randomly move to an adjacent room half-a-tick sooner than the archery pre-delay would take.  It's wary now, for the next 15 RL minutes.  You are just not going to be able to get a bead on it, when it's this spooked.   

This might solve the issue of a tregil going suddenly rabid pyscho and charging a warparty.  It would also limit the easy target practice unless you wanted to wait that long delay out for it to settle down again to try your next shot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 15, 2019, 12:12:38 PM
Also. Whatever script is governing this whole feature. Delay needs to be looked at. I had a creature try to flee 5 times within less then a second. That in itself is not horrible, but if their charging also ignores delay, that may be ... very scary.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: titansfan on October 15, 2019, 12:22:52 PM
What about reintroducing trap skill. Being able to make a snare type trap of some sort.  Or a spike trap (small thorn like damage)?

This would allow hunters to stop prey for short periods or protect against bigger things atleast a little bit?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Olafson on October 15, 2019, 01:05:36 PM
With the change with archery, and the resulting charge of the beasts, why would anyone use a bow anymore?

By the time you have removed the bow, the beast is upon you and you're defending with a bow.

In game, if someone shoots me, I have to decide which way the arrow came from, look, then decide to run.  I don't get to instant chase the shooter.  Why do the npcs?  Definitely need a random roll to decide, and then roll each room they've moved.

The result will be that noone will hunt alone anymore, but maybe that is the point?

Archery just doesn't make sense with this change.  Probably a lot of dead hunters after the weekend.

Olafson
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
My experience has been if you target has a normal speed, you have plenty of time to switch back to melee weapons.

If your target has a faster speed or is running, not so much.

Like anything, we'll continue to monitor the results of the change.  I'm actually surprised at comments around critters like tandu, as the change makes them much easier to kill, albeit not with arrows.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 15, 2019, 01:26:17 PM
All I know, is I'm still all in on Crossbows. Once I actually find a PC I like, who has Crossbow use, and can afford them, and the expensive bolts...

Oh man am I going to be hunter extraordinaire. Fighter class, new top class 2020.

Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
I'm actually surprised at comments around critters like tandu, as the change makes them much easier to kill, albeit not with arrows.

I think there will be more dead hunters once people realize that some creatures AREN'T as easy as you think!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 15, 2019, 01:26:17 PM
I think there will be more dead hunters once people realize that some creatures AREN'T as easy as you think!

Mission accomplished? /jk
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on October 15, 2019, 01:41:50 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
Like anything, we'll continue to monitor the results of the change.  I'm actually surprised at comments around critters like tandu, as the change makes them much easier to kill, albeit not with arrows.

This was one of my main thoughts. The whole idea of stalking/sneaking/hiding/outsmarting your prey is made kind of moot and bland. half-giants can sling forage rocks at a jozhal until it charges them, where a creature like that should be running at first sight/scent/sound.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Namino on October 15, 2019, 01:53:53 PM
Also something to consider with the new NPC tracking as it's been described to me by other players, but 'killing x' becomes easier also turns into 'dying from x' becomes easier, which has already been touched on, but to elaborate:

If a novice fighter gets into a scrap with a bamuk or a skeet and starts to lose, and begins to run, previously if they built a two room lead they would be safe. Now, however, the animal will attempt to run them down over vast distances, potentially exhausting the player's stamina. This may be realistic and attractive behavior for, say, Rantarri, yompar, and other predators, but a primary/secondary consumer like a bamuk or a skeet wouldn't realistically decide to dog someone to death at all costs.

So not only will bamuk kill people more often due to this change, they'll be doing it in a way that flies in the face of normal ecology, which seriously hurts immersion, imo.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on October 15, 2019, 04:20:26 PM
With the script that causes animals to charge after being shot, might it be time for a further update to general hunting?

An idea I had last night was to allow the use of hide to counter the charging animals.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on October 15, 2019, 05:02:24 PM
Dat perraine decay.

Never used it and only have been hit by it from NPCs.
This seems like a good change, but a little vague.

Do knives already poisoned my perraine decay, or just the items used to poison, both, find out IC?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on October 15, 2019, 05:09:11 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
Like anything, we'll continue to monitor the results of the change.  I'm actually surprised at comments around critters like tandu, as the change makes them much easier to kill, albeit not with arrows.

I was just using tandu as an example of a creature typically easy to kill.  You also have to remember there are a high volume of tandu where they usually hang out.  So if one is besting you - you flee.  You could flee in a square with two others adjacent.  Meaning you couldn't fight one tandu, now you have three.  So let's say you flee.  Now you have THREE tandu following you as far as 30 squares.  If you don't have good ride, trying to sheath or change hands with your weapon, trying to mount, not get thrown and flee so you don't lose more stamina is a total cluster fuck.

I am all for making some critters harder so they can't be hunted like idiots and skinned for the most lethal poisons in the game but hunters have to start somewhere.  And now effectively every single creature in the game has stalk.  Accept its worse than stalk because there's no hunting delay they're just on your ASS.

It may seem funny, but when you're training if you start getting chased down by 3 tandu, or even one bamuk or something it can really wreck your shit to say nothing of if say a gizhat or kylori or something starts to chase you until you actually can't run anymore.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on October 15, 2019, 05:10:45 PM
Peraine change should also apply to heramide, IMO. It's 'easier' to obtain and is arguably just as deadly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on October 15, 2019, 05:24:11 PM
I think it should just be all harvested (raw) poisons.

Gotta use it to lose it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 07:07:49 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on October 15, 2019, 05:10:45 PM
Peraine change should also apply to heramide, IMO. It's 'easier' to obtain and is arguably just as deadly.

Reach out to me directly if your experience is recent.  It should be as hard/harder to obtain for the last year or so.  Just like any of them obtained for awhile now should decay.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bebop on October 15, 2019, 08:22:06 PM
Just want to say, I am really happy perraine items now decay.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on October 15, 2019, 08:51:17 PM
QuoteLike anything, we'll continue to monitor the results of the change.  I'm actually surprised at comments around critters like tandu, as the change makes them much easier to kill, albeit not with arrows.

The funny part of that is, I thought of it the moment I had a certain creature charge me. And my first thought was "Wow, what a twinky way to bring animals into melee range."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nameless Face on October 15, 2019, 08:51:55 PM
Quote from: Bebop on October 15, 2019, 08:22:06 PM
Just want to say, I am really happy perraine items now decay.
I hope it works out better.  It might just give more exclusive power to the few players who both know how and where to harvest and who currently have PCs or friends of their PCs who can manage it.

Maybe with this change, which will definitely increase "in-hand" rarity, there might be a chance of additional sources that are {only outside someplace}{only in that/those geographic regions} that require {only those particular skillsets but not these}.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on October 15, 2019, 08:55:07 PM
Myself have been feeling poisons was just flooding in game.  Everyone and their cousins had deadly poisons on them and in bulky! Statement is just how felt, not saying it was.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 16, 2019, 01:58:25 AM
I wonder if we'll see poison spoilage next? That'd be a neat pairing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 16, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
To me, it makes sense that an organic source of poison (glands, leaves, etc) should decay at some point, and hopefully so will the poison left on blades.

If you're going to poison a blade, its because you plan on USING it soon. Why would you poison a blade and expect it to be just as deadly a year later?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 16, 2019, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 16, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
To me, it makes sense that an organic source of poison (glands, leaves, etc) should decay at some point, and hopefully so will the poison left on blades.

If you're going to poison a blade, its because you plan on USING it soon. Why would you poison a blade and expect it to be just as deadly a year later?

I think the blade decay is the current state. Raw poison spoilage (I don't believe) is a thing yet. Would be cool though. Then you wouldn't have Guildees with 40 Large worth of leaves and glands sitting in a back room. Well... not for long at least. That said, I realize it isn't the thread to suggest things so I'm excited to see how things manifest IG.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 16, 2019, 01:27:09 PM
Raw poison spoilage is what I was talking about.  Causing poison to wear off a blade would require not inconsequential code.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 16, 2019, 01:29:03 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 16, 2019, 01:27:09 PM
Raw poison spoilage is what I was talking about.  Causing poison to wear off a blade would require not inconsequential code.

Oh! Neat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on October 16, 2019, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 16, 2019, 01:27:09 PM
Raw poison spoilage is what I was talking about.  Causing poison to wear off a blade would require not inconsequential code.

Brokkr,

If I poison a weapon today, then use it in an ic year from now, will it still be as potent or was there a code change to affect the application rate of poisoned weapons over time?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 16, 2019, 05:35:31 PM
This is really a place to talk about announced code changes.

Not where we are going to talk about what we plan for the future.
Not where you ask for future, non-related code features.
Not the place to ask about what you may think are unannounced code changes.

Just to be clear on what this thread is for to avoid cluttering it up.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 17, 2019, 09:46:46 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 16, 2019, 05:35:31 PM
Just to be clear on what this thread is for to avoid cluttering it up.

I created it! You stole my child! Gubbament came and took mah baby.

On topic: I like the current poison changes, and it will be interesting to see how they play out. With the stats that Miscreant and Stalker are the top played guilds, both get poison skill, and poisons are (supposedly) less easy to find in general, maybe this will make death by poison rare and "oh wow I really made someone mad" instead of "well, that random elf who has no political or social ties just has the most deadly poisons for fun".

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 18, 2019, 04:58:36 PM
Regarding poison changes, spice decay, etc. While it is vital for all of that to be in. I agree that someone joining a clan that no one has been in and finding 50 insta kill poisons stockpiled is kind of bonkers.

But when deciding on timers, please consider the lengths. If they are so short as to invalidate them completely to people who play intermittently, I think it will be unfair to those players.

Consider this. A craftsman aide hires a grebber to procure a heramide object for them, so he can kill some other side.

The grebber gets the leaf, but spends 3 RL days trying to match playtime with the aide.

Finally the aide gets the poison and then spends another 3 days to match the victim aide+assassin friend who can do the poisoning.

So the object needs to not decay for 6 days. And 3 RL days wait times are nothing, sometime it takes weeks. We are all busy IRL.

So if the object decays faster then that, then the whole aspect of poisons is no longer a factor in the gameplay of a percentage of the playerbase. In my opinion, that would be worse for the game, then better.

But if you make the decay rate something like 2 RL months. Then sure, whatever. It'll prevent stockpiling "and" keep it useable for the casuals.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 18, 2019, 05:38:21 PM
I can't tell you how fast it will decay in RL time because I don't know how much RL time the item will have spent IG.

Also I made it a bit random.

Let's just say I am aware of those logistics problems and made it last long enough it shouldn't be an issue.  While stockpiling it in a save room won't work very effectively.  Also, if you are paying attention you will be aware you are going to loose it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 18, 2019, 05:47:11 PM
:) good stuff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on October 18, 2019, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 18, 2019, 05:38:21 PM
I can't tell you how fast it will decay in RL time because I don't know how much RL time the item will have spent IG.

Also I made it a bit random.

Let's just say I am aware of those logistics problems and made it last long enough it shouldn't be an issue.  While stockpiling it in a save room won't work very effectively.  Also, if you are paying attention you will be aware you are going to loose it.

Are the current methods to slow decay viable methods to slow it here? I can think or reasons both for and against why you should refrigerate your poisons.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 18, 2019, 09:58:43 PM
No objects you can put it in to slow decay.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on October 19, 2019, 01:30:03 AM
It'd make for a creepy secondary spell for Vivadu or Nilaz, where they could put food/poisons/spice in stasis. For Vivadu, it would be on magical ice, for Nilaz, in a perpetual state of non-existence.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on October 21, 2019, 03:59:35 AM
Quote from: Veselka on October 19, 2019, 01:30:03 AM
It'd make for a creepy secondary spell for Vivadu or Nilaz, where they could put food/poisons/spice in stasis. For Vivadu, it would be on magical ice, for Nilaz, in a perpetual state of non-existence.

*You take a frosty kalan fruit from your pack, offering it towards your favorite templar*

BEEP

Welcome to Armageddon....


Jokes aside this is for the best,  folks have been stock-piling death-notes for a long time.  This will urge everyone to -play- the cards in their hands when they have a good set.   ::)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on October 21, 2019, 02:33:48 PM
New NPC changes verses ranged...so far seems cool.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on October 21, 2019, 02:41:59 PM
Quote-Changed how NPCs react to being shot depending on...
  -how wounded they are
  -if they are set as aggressive
  -if they are an intelligent race.

Sounds like a good change. Will enjoy experimenting!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 21, 2019, 04:58:14 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on October 21, 2019, 02:41:59 PM
Sounds like a good change. Will enjoy experimenting!

That cracked me up :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: adri on October 30, 2019, 01:08:39 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
If your target has a faster speed or is running, not so much.

What I've been seeing is that NPCs are walking fast enough to keep up with a running PC or mount and interrupt their movement entirely by initiating combat several rooms later.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 30, 2019, 09:07:24 AM
Quote from: adri on October 30, 2019, 01:08:39 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 15, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
If your target has a faster speed or is running, not so much.

What I've been seeing is that NPCs are walking fast enough to keep up with a running PC or mount and interrupt their movement entirely by initiating combat several rooms later.

Unfortunately, many animals are faster than our mounts, depending on terrain.
Think, a beetle's many legs might be good in the desert, but in rocky hills or uneven terrain, they may suffer speed. Whereas a tembo that has evolved to hunt those lands, can move swiftly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on October 30, 2019, 09:23:10 AM
I think move regeneration in NPCs could be looked at next.

Now that they move more, they have a big advantage in that NPCs recover stamina while standing and pursuing or fleeing from you.

If they had to sit also to regenerate stamina then they would eventually tire of chasing you or fleeing and give a hunter a chance for a new surprise attack.

Before it didnt matter as they didnt move much, but now they are faster than us and our mounts and they constantly regen stamina also.

Funnily this is how ancient humans hunted as well according to many hypotheses. We wouldn't be faster than them but because humans could jog for miles and sweat to stay cool they eventually caught up to their prey via tracking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on October 30, 2019, 09:25:26 AM
I would take an increase in their movement lag over the stamina thing. Although both would be nice.

More like a chase, less like a homing missile.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: adri on October 30, 2019, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: roughneck on October 30, 2019, 09:25:26 AM
I would take an increase in their movement lag over the stamina thing. Although both would be nice.

More like a chase, less like a homing missile.

Yes. As it stands now, combat with some NPCs is sometimes unavoidable even after you flee. Homing missile indeed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on October 30, 2019, 11:59:20 AM
Thanks for the feedback.  My own experience is that it is still fairly easy to elude pursuit, but I know how it works.  Have you been actively trying to figure it out?  Just wondering if there are a few assumptions here that are getting in the way of survival.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: adri on October 30, 2019, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 30, 2019, 11:59:20 AM
Thanks for the feedback.  My own experience is that it is still fairly easy to elude pursuit, but I know how it works.  Have you been actively trying to figure it out?  Just wondering if there are a few assumptions here that are getting in the way of survival.
I have a few examples I could cite, but I submitted them via the request tool to avoid being specific on the GDB.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Greve on November 02, 2019, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 30, 2019, 11:59:20 AM
My own experience is that it is still fairly easy to elude pursuit, but I know how it works.  Have you been actively trying to figure it out?  Just wondering if there are a few assumptions here that are getting in the way of survival.

Quote from: adri on October 30, 2019, 01:15:57 PM
I have a few examples I could cite, but I submitted them via the request tool to avoid being specific on the GDB.

This seems like the wrong way to solicit feedback. Why not explain how it works? We're not talking about in-game knowledge here, are we? It's a purely code-based change. Should players have to experiment extensively with it before they deserve the right to provide feedback? This is a game where we're punished if caught fucking around with the code in OOC ways. Just say what you've done and ask what we think of it, otherwise you'll get wildly varying reports that depend on the extent to which any given individual has been exposed to the new code.

"Find out IC" should not apply to this kind of thing. The behavior of animals has not changed overnight from an IC perspective. Characters should not have to rediscover hunting practises.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Derain on November 02, 2019, 01:41:29 PM
My experience so far is if you don't have good ride and are just starting there is zero delay on a few of the mobs chasing you and they are faster then war beetles for sure, if they hit you, you will fall off and die. all the change did was make survival stupid for new characters and also forced them to find a way to twink or spar before actually going outside because they can no longer get away if the gates are closed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on November 03, 2019, 11:05:52 PM
i bet the mobs work off a line of sight code. they can see you two rooms away they will pursue. if you break their line of sight by moving perpendicular as soon as you can the LOS is broken. then you need to get enough distance to resume fleeing without giving them back LOS.

maybe?

don't trust me, I haven't tested it at all. But since staff aren't talking, I should be allowed to start guessing, right?

this would be vicious in many areas with chokepoints that are 1, 2 or 3 rooms wide even i would guess.

but I am totally guessing here
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on November 04, 2019, 12:15:16 AM
I would also like to put this out there, but animals that have been shot at some point will follow sneaking people. Even If they cannot see them, a scrab for example will follow regardless of whether or not their target is visible to them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on November 04, 2019, 07:24:54 AM
Quote from: Greve on November 02, 2019, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on October 30, 2019, 11:59:20 AM
My own experience is that it is still fairly easy to elude pursuit, but I know how it works.  Have you been actively trying to figure it out?  Just wondering if there are a few assumptions here that are getting in the way of survival.

Quote from: adri on October 30, 2019, 01:15:57 PM
I have a few examples I could cite, but I submitted them via the request tool to avoid being specific on the GDB.

This seems like the wrong way to solicit feedback. Why not explain how it works? We're not talking about in-game knowledge here, are we? It's a purely code-based change. Should players have to experiment extensively with it before they deserve the right to provide feedback? This is a game where we're punished if caught fucking around with the code in OOC ways. Just say what you've done and ask what we think of it, otherwise you'll get wildly varying reports that depend on the extent to which any given individual has been exposed to the new code.

"Find out IC" should not apply to this kind of thing. The behavior of animals has not changed overnight from an IC perspective. Characters should not have to rediscover hunting practises.

I agree with you... and at the same time I want to find out for myself.  I don't want to be told one thing or another to make it easier the next time I venture out.   It should be dangerous, every time. 

Remember the first time you walked out those gates? had a look around and thought "oh it looks fine" only to run screaming back with your finest shitting pants on.   Those were iconic times  :D  Wouldn't miss it for the world!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on December 16, 2019, 10:46:10 AM
Quote-Updated logic so non-humanoids will no longer try to wield items that end up in
  their inventory

(https://i.imgflip.com/3jm62q.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HavokBlue on December 16, 2019, 03:01:54 PM
Mobs benefit from skills the same way PCs do, which means a mob with hunt is able to use hunt to track a target.

Probably fair to debate the implementation of this. I nearly lost an ATV PC on numerous occasions to a certain wild critter that follow me 20 rooms into the camp, past the guards, and attack while sleeping.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on December 16, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
These big fixes look spectacular one in particular was really bothering me. Thanks!!!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on December 16, 2019, 07:58:12 PM
I know this is oldish news, but I just wanted to say:
Quote-Damage taken by characters now creates a wound on the character that represents the kind of damage that dealt the wound.
-When the code does not have information about the type of damage dealt the would is described simply as a 'wound'.
-Wounds have words describing how much damage the wound currently accounts for.
-As characters regain hit points their wounds go down in value and become less severe.
-Wounds on a character can be viewed with the assess command using the verbose option
  -assess -v <character>
  -Only the top 5 wounds will be displayed
-When a character is fully healed all remaining wounds will be removed.
-When a character dies the corpse that results will have all of the characters woulds transferred to it.
  The top 5 wounds can be viewed by looking at the wounds.
  -look corpse's wounds
-Ldescs now display 'wounded' instead of 'bleeding' to make it a bit more generic.
THis new code is awesome and I really appreciate it. It takes what I use to roleplay and provides coded support for it to help guide my RP.

Very awesome!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on December 24, 2019, 07:47:25 PM
From Discord:

Nessalin Dec/24/2019 at 10:32 AM
Game uptime should now appear on the armageddon home page below server time / local time.


Woo!  No longer having to go to old.armageddon.org to check the uptime.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on December 25, 2019, 10:22:06 AM
Awwww... no more scrabs wielding scrab claws. Gone the way of BANZAI! To the rescue! and the consider command.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on February 01, 2020, 10:05:45 AM
In Response to

Another random update:

- Roughly 400 jewellery updates/crafts and or fixes added.
- Roughly 1400 worn items updated.
- Roughly 400 "treasure" items updated.

Further, an assortment of shop merchants are under going changes. Certain NPCs have been buying or not buying things they should or shouldn't. For example, a certain Kadian shop didn't by anything in a certain location - They now buy clothing/jewellery, etc. On the opposite end of the spectrum, no - the food vendor will not longer buy jewellery or furniture.

Just Outstanding!  (huge applause!)  Big Kudos to anyone involved in these overhauls, this is not small work and I seriously appreciate every bit of what you've done here.  Realistic quality of life improoooovement %100!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on February 01, 2020, 11:46:43 AM
Everything Perfecto said.

Also

QuoteAny pie lovers? All fruits now able to be baked/cooked and then sliced (open).
--Emme

YeeeEEEeeEeeeeEeee
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on March 02, 2020, 10:56:49 AM
Holy cats. Carts! OMG!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on March 02, 2020, 11:41:07 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1043461.html#msg1043461


Carts!


Question:
If the mounts pull the cart - how do I tell the mounts to rest when they run out of movement points?
   Would I need to unharness them and then make them rest manually?



QuoteRathustra Today at 12:44 PM
@mansa To rest the train of a cart you need to unharness them and make them rest.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on March 02, 2020, 11:51:57 AM
How do you store a cart? Just leave it in the wagon yard and hope no one comes by and takes it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Raptor_Dan on March 02, 2020, 12:00:01 PM
Utep's Teeth! Everything I've ever known just exploded inside my head and left a big bloody mess. This is the best thing since sliced fruit.

CARTS! CARTS! CARTS!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Gentleboy on March 02, 2020, 01:05:30 PM
Can elves use carts??
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on March 02, 2020, 01:37:27 PM
holy monkeys I need to get back in the game

Quote from: mansa on March 02, 2020, 11:41:07 AM
Question:
If the mounts pull the cart - how do I tell the mounts to rest when they run out of movement points?
   Would I need to unharness them and then make them rest manually?

Is there an advantage to hitching multiple mounts to carts that permit this? (Do they get less tired?)

Can you tell us anything about carts and combat?

Quote from: Jihelu on March 02, 2020, 11:51:57 AM
How do you store a cart? Just leave it in the wagon yard and hope no one comes by and takes it?

Be nice to have at least one of these options:
- store a cart at a stable, get a ticket (like stabling a mount)
- carts leave the game when their pilot quits (like quitting with a hitched mount)

Quote from: Gentleboy on March 02, 2020, 01:05:30 PM
Can elves use carts??

Seems pretty clear-cut to me: no to riding, no to piloting. :'( Elves can already use mounts as pack animals, so leading a mount that's pulling a cart would be fine, if that were codedly possible.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on March 02, 2020, 01:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gentleboy on March 02, 2020, 01:05:30 PM
Can elves use carts??

Nah. Elves don't move while seated.
Ehm. At least not intentionally.

I too would love to know about cart combat.

Roman style chariot fight anyone?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on March 02, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
I do hope it's possible to lead a cart.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on March 02, 2020, 02:17:43 PM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on March 02, 2020, 01:38:55 PM
I too would love to know about cart combat.

Logic would dictate it would be similar to fighting on a siltskimmer, minus all the fun insta-death parts.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tiny rainbow on March 02, 2020, 04:27:06 PM
If you can only unharness if you are the pilot, this means you have to incapacitate the pilot or every one of the animals to be able to stop a cart (and everyone on it) continuing to keep moving? (because you need to be able to ride it to be able to use the unharness command) I could see a lot of comically huge pilots who probably don't really need more carrying capacity when they're already commonly carrying around furniture chests with their invisible second pair of arms while fighting :)

Maybe there could be any way to attack carts or wagons themselves (targeting rope connecting the harness, the wheels, or lighting the things on fire! :D) without needing staff to be free to do special stuff if these are intended to be a more common thing to see around? :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on March 02, 2020, 04:54:05 PM
Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 02, 2020, 04:27:06 PM
If you can only unharness if you are the pilot, this means you have to incapacitate the pilot or every one of the animals to be able to stop a cart (and everyone on it) continuing to keep moving? (because you need to be able to ride it to be able to use the unharness command) I could see a lot of comically huge pilots who probably don't really need more carrying capacity when they're already commonly carrying around furniture chests with their invisible second pair of arms while fighting :)

Maybe there could be any way to attack carts or wagons themselves (targeting rope connecting the harness, the wheels, or lighting the things on fire! :D) without needing staff to be free to do special stuff if these are intended to be a more common thing to see around? :)

Maybe if you attack the mounts they get unharnessed, or are unable to move/pilot away if they happen to be in combat.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: tiny rainbow on March 02, 2020, 05:39:41 PM
Oh and with my idea also people with wagonmaking skill could have a new business+plot hooks by being available to repair them after they have been attacked maybe :)

Maybe could also be a nice idea to put in the option to sabotage carts/wagons while in guarded areas too (with risk of it being noticed) or someone who is actually inside the cart or wagon can actually cut the harness too while they are on board making it unable to move again until it gets fixed and maybe need a rescue group to come :D
https://bit.ly/2VEGGg4 (youtu.be/6HXgYc-kIZw?t=16m33s)

https://bit.ly/38eP2hm (youtu.be/lvoAmeDq3sU?t=12m35s)

(youtu.be instead of youtube.com links show a blank empty square box on the forums by the way I've seen people trying to post them in the theme music thread a lot :)
(the &t= for skipping to to time doesn't work at the moment too)

Quote from: only_plays_tribals on March 02, 2020, 01:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gentleboy on March 02, 2020, 01:05:30 PMCan elves use carts??
Nah. Elves don't move while seated.
Ehm. At least not intentionally.
This actually makes me think, is it culturally acceptable for elves to board a moving wagon if it's to kill everyone on it/destroy it?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on March 02, 2020, 06:26:47 PM
Awesome job once again staff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Emme on March 02, 2020, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: valeria on March 02, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
I do hope it's possible to lead a cart.

It is not, currently. They must all be piloted.


QuoteHow do you store a cart? Just leave it in the wagon yard and hope no one comes by and takes it?

The same type of ticketing system available for skimmers are now available for carts in all city wagonyards.


Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: John on March 03, 2020, 01:40:24 AM
Quote from: Emme on March 02, 2020, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: valeria on March 02, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
I do hope it's possible to lead a cart.

It is not, currently. They must all be piloted.


QuoteHow do you store a cart? Just leave it in the wagon yard and hope no one comes by and takes it?

The same type of ticketing system available for skimmers are now available for carts in all city wagonyards.



There is a ticketing system for skimmers!? So awesome!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Knight of Knives on March 03, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on March 02, 2020, 02:17:43 PM
Quote from: only_plays_tribals on March 02, 2020, 01:38:55 PM
I too would love to know about cart combat.

Logic would dictate it would be similar to fighting on a siltskimmer, minus all the fun insta-death parts.

While we're here skimmers should allow people to stand and ride around!

Re: carts, this is amazing.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on March 03, 2020, 05:09:32 PM
Quote from: Emme on March 02, 2020, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: valeria on March 02, 2020, 02:15:00 PM
I do hope it's possible to lead a cart.

It is not, currently. They must all be piloted.

Thanks for clarifying!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on March 03, 2020, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: Knight of Knives on March 03, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
While we're here skimmers should allow people to stand and ride around!

They do.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: only_plays_tribals on March 07, 2020, 01:37:45 PM
Quote-Mounts leaving the room without the cart don't break carts anymore.
  (flee, summon, hands of wind, fear, etc...)

Sounds like kids are already having fun with new toys. Hehehe.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Evilone on April 05, 2020, 07:36:36 PM
"The noble houses excepting Winrothol aligned themselves with these Loyalists"

Noooo! Not Winrothol! Rhodran would have never :'(
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on April 05, 2020, 11:08:24 PM
I would like to hear stories from the PC's who stored that the staff perhaps wrote.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: lostinspace on April 06, 2020, 12:38:09 PM
Winrothol was the only slaving House in the north, what is the state of slavery in the area? We're most of them made Listless and is there a market for slaves in Morin's?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 06, 2020, 01:57:04 PM
Does this mean Sujaal's academy in Tuluk are a bunch of listless warriors?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on April 07, 2020, 09:46:54 AM
I can't believe that the 300+ children I've had while playing in Tuluk are now a bunch of Listless jerks.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 07, 2020, 02:58:46 PM
Quote from: Malken on April 07, 2020, 09:46:54 AM
I can't believe that the 300+ children I've had while playing in Tuluk are now a bunch of Listless jerks.

Only the human ones.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on April 07, 2020, 03:09:33 PM
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/jAugkVty2VCDu/source.gif)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on April 07, 2020, 03:14:24 PM
p.s. I am so glad to finally see something released that explains Tuluk. Thank you staff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Knight of Knives on April 07, 2020, 07:03:52 PM
P.S. Delirium this always explained Tuluk:

(https://www.wellnessproject.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/hippies_compressed.jpg.png)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on April 07, 2020, 08:10:06 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on March 03, 2020, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: Knight of Knives on March 03, 2020, 04:56:30 PM
While we're here skimmers should allow people to stand and ride around!

They do.

:o  Wouldn't recommend it!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on April 08, 2020, 02:07:08 PM
Quote from: Knight of Knives on April 07, 2020, 07:03:52 PM
P.S. Delirium this always explained Tuluk:

(https://www.wellnessproject.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/hippies_compressed.jpg.png)

Just photoedit this to have them all holding knives behind their backs and I think you've got it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on April 17, 2020, 11:59:05 PM
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55636.msg1045330.html#msg1045330 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55636.msg1045330.html#msg1045330)

Looks groovy
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2020, 12:08:27 AM
Looks kinda pointless to me. We already what they're proposing. Maybe the new progression will be interesting, or at least superficially different than "live longer than everyone else."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on April 18, 2020, 12:15:03 AM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2020, 12:08:27 AM
Looks kinda pointless to me. We already what they're proposing. Maybe the new progression will be interesting, or at least superficially different than "live longer than everyone else."

I haven't played in the Byn in a little while, but at least one thing I see changed is that Lieutenant Copper was like fucking 600 years old
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2020, 12:15:45 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 18, 2020, 12:15:03 AM
I haven't played in the Byn in a little while, but at least one thing I see changed is that Lieutenant Copper was like fucking 600 years old

I mean, sorcery will do that to a person.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 18, 2020, 12:31:25 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2020, 12:15:45 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 18, 2020, 12:15:03 AM
I haven't played in the Byn in a little while, but at least one thing I see changed is that Lieutenant Copper was like fucking 600 years old

I mean, sorcery will do that to a person.

Lol seriously. Lieutenant Copper was really Tektolnes in disguise/hiding.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Decameron on April 18, 2020, 02:05:59 PM
C'mon guys, she's not dead, she's just been promoted past the point of playability.

Congratulations to Copper's player for putting in all those years of work!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Night Queen on April 18, 2020, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: Krath on April 18, 2020, 12:31:25 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2020, 12:15:45 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 18, 2020, 12:15:03 AM
I haven't played in the Byn in a little while, but at least one thing I see changed is that Lieutenant Copper was like fucking 600 years old

I mean, sorcery will do that to a person.

Lol seriously. Lieutenant Copper was really Tektolnes in disguise/hiding.
"̵̹̊Ƭ̶͕͆Ή̵̣̎Σ̴̞̓ ̵̰́Ƭ̶̯̎I̶̬͑M̷̺̂Σ̶̡͂ ̵̬̏Ή̵̛͍Λ̸̟̍Ƨ̸̣̎ ̴͙̎ᄃ̸̘̾Ө̶̗́M̷̹͌Σ̴͕̄,̴͖́"̶̠͊ ̵̖̐Ƭ̵̯̔Ή̶͉͘Σ̵̪̓ ̶̖̓Щ̵̙̒Λ̵͖̉ᄂ̷̭͂Я̸͚͛Ц̷̤̈́Ƨ̵̨̽ ̸̼̒Ƨ̵̠̆Λ̴͚̇Í̶̱Ḏ̴́,̶͍̈́
̶̨̌"̷̡̄Ƭ̶̜̓Ө̵̦̇ ̷̩̔Ƭ̸̰͠Λ̸̓ͅᄂ̶̛̟K̶͉̆ ̸̗̊Ө̷̢̽Ḟ̵̙ ̷̰̅M̴̻̍Λ̴̨̊П̴̞̏Y̴̱̑ ̸̍͜Ƭ̵̲̈Ή̸͖̽I̴̳̿П̷̤͋G̵͎͑Ƨ̴̩́:̴̺̇
̵̬̓Ө̷̛̫F̶̞̈ ̶̩͑Ƨ̸̲̉Ή̸̠̿Ө̷̪̓Σ̵̹̀Ƨ̷͖͒-̵̛̫-̷͉́Λ̴͉̒П̶̹̍D̴͇̈́ ̷̰̀Ƨ̷͓͠Ή̶̱̄Ȋ̶̲P̷͕͘Ƨ̸̗̿-̷̱̅-̷̹̑Λ̴̥̀П̶̹̈D̶͕͑ ̵̭̽Ƨ̵̩͒Σ̷̟̋Λ̵̼͝ᄂ̴̙̒I̵̩͌П̴̜͘G̴̬̉-̸̤͝Щ̶͈̆Λ̴̹̈́X̵͔̽-̶̼̅-̶̖͛
̴͚͛Ӫ̶̦F̶̭̒ ̷̬̈́ᄃ̷͖̈́Λ̶̛̯B̶̮̍B̴̹̓Λ̶̰̂G̷͙̓Σ̶̖͆Ƨ̸̘̈-̸̪̽-̵̳̚Λ̵͙̀П̶̼́D̷͇̈́ ̷͙͛K̵̮͒Ì̵͚П̷̥̉G̶̘͠Ƨ̴̼̅-̸̨͆-̶̭͛
̸͎̈́Λ̶͖̆П̴̻̅D̸͈̔ ̷͕͂Щ̷̙͗Ή̸̥̿Y̷̞̊ ̸͈̈́Ƭ̸̭̈Ή̵̲̀Σ̵̪̀ ̸̯̕Ƨ̷̪̓Σ̷̹͊Λ̴͓̆ ̶̝̉I̵͈̐Ƨ̵̠̂ ̸̳̕B̶̘̅Ө̷̻͋İ̸͔ᄂ̵̭͝Ȉ̵͖П̷̥͊G̷̼̈́ ̷̰́Ή̷͖̾Ө̷̿͜Ƭ̷̘̿-̴͍͊-̵̙͐
̴͑ͅΛ̷̻͛П̴͚̎Ḑ̶̐ ̵̝͘Щ̷̨̏Ή̴̱̄Σ̵͙́Ƭ̵͖͝Ή̵͓͆Σ̴̡̀Я̵̞͑ ̶̳͠P̴̰̽I̴͕̾G̴̀ͅƧ̵͓̌ ̸͚̌Ή̸̥̈́Λ̷̗̿V̴͚̈Σ̶̪͒ ̶͓̒Щ̴̻̌I̴̥̊П̵̞̄Ḡ̸̥Ƨ̸͕̔.̶͙̔"̵̻̍
̴̘͌
̸̲͠"̴͎̾B̸͔̅Ц̶̙͆Ƭ̴̛̲ ̵̧̎Щ̶̫̍Λ̴̧̚Ỉ̸̪Ƭ̷͍̋ ̷͖̕Λ̷̧͒ ̴͇̐B̸͍͆I̴̬͒Ƭ̵̳́,̶̥̀"̵͠ͅ ̸̢̓Ƭ̸̰͛Ή̸̼̂Σ̶̣͗ ̴̘̿Ө̶͎͛Ŷ̵̪Ƨ̵̝̄Ƭ̸̥̔Σ̵̲̅Я̴͉͆Ƨ̷̳͝ ̷͕̈ᄃ̵̢̿Я̴͉̈́I̵̟̿Σ̴̗̌D̵̯̉,̵̙͂
̷̗̄"̶͉͑B̵͚̄Σ̴̱̓F̵̛̗Ө̷̱͆Я̷͉̈Σ̴̛̬ ̷̬͝Щ̴̼͂Σ̵͂ͅ ̷̢̓Ή̶̧͠Λ̴̥̓V̴̧̇Σ̵͍͒ ̶̬̈Ӫ̸̳Ц̸̤̑Я̴̘̓ ̴̜͠ᄃ̴͈͛Ή̸͙̈́Λ̵̝̔Ƭ̸͈̏;̵̖͘
̶̼̓F̸̗͂Ө̷͖͑Я̵͉̚ ̶̝̊Ƨ̴̜̿Ө̴͊ͅM̵͕̕Σ̶̧̌ ̷̲̂Ө̵̩̚F̶̻̓ ̸̡̛Ц̴̙́Ƨ̶̧͘ ̷̹́Λ̵̹̿Я̶̫̅Σ̸͎̀ ̵͓̚Ө̷̛͈Ц̵̦̀Ƭ̴̘̏ ̴̝̎Ө̷̝͝F̵̛͇ ̷̻̾B̴̯̏Я̵͚̂Σ̸̣̊Λ̷̬̾Ƭ̷͇̒Ή̴̧͌,̴̩̓
̶͓̈Λ̵͌͜П̸͉͠D̷͙̿ ̷̫͛Λ̴̠̓ᄂ̸̜̃ᄂ̷̹̕ ̵̳̆Ө̸̮͗F̶̥͗ ̸̭͑Ц̷̂͜Ƨ̵̭̈́ ̴̳̅Λ̸̡̆Я̵̨͌Σ̷͍́ ̵̥͋F̸̻̚Λ̸̖̍Ƭ̶̭̎!̸̺̾"̶̟̈
̴̨̍"̷͉͊П̷̱́Ө̶͍̇ ̸͙̆Ή̸̯̔Ц̶̡͑Я̸̪̈́Я̸̓ͅŸ̸̧!̸̗̇"̸̬̈́ ̷̨̂Ƨ̸̯͘Λ̴̞̐I̸͚̋D̶͙͝ ̵͇̊Ƭ̴̻̕Ή̸̫̄Σ̶̯͝ ̸̞̈́ᄃ̵͈̋Λ̸̯̌Я̸̨̑P̷̝̈Σ̴͖̓П̶͘ͅƬ̸̫̒Σ̶̤̌Я̵͈̈́.̸̥̚
̵̹̍Ƭ̶͚͗Ή̵̡̋Σ̸́ͅÝ̷̲ ̵̗́Ƭ̸̝̀Ή̵͓̆Λ̴͇̚П̷̼̆K̷̨͌Σ̷̘̉D̶̡̏ ̸̨̂Ή̵̤́Į̵́Ḿ̸̪ ̵̗̚M̵̱͠Ц̴̫͌ᄃ̷̧͝Ή̶̧́ ̴͖̈F̸̯͊Ө̴̣́Я̴̺̔ ̵͕̈Ƭ̷̯̋Ή̸̮̒Λ̴͔̉Ƭ̸͎̄.̴̹̈́
̸͓̒
̸̻̓"̶͉̓Λ̸͚̑ ̸̮̆ᄂ̷̩̾Ө̸̣̒Λ̴̦̈F̴̗̊ ̵̜͝Ө̶͔͝F̵̅͜ ̷̪̈B̵̺̿Я̴̧̿Σ̸̦̈Λ̸̻̍D̴͇̎,̶̥͝"̴̗̒ ̷̙̑Ƭ̵̟͆Ή̶̡̓Σ̶̝́ ̵̘͋Щ̷̦͋Λ̵͍͑ᄂ̵̪̋Я̵̯̀Ц̸̳̏Ƨ̸͈̃ ̷̖̉Ƨ̸̫̂Λ̶̯́Į̷́D̸̠́,̵̛̟
̶͎̽"̴͇̆I̴̙͐Ƨ̷̩̚ ̸̟̊Щ̴̲̄Ή̸̹̌Λ̷̯̈́Ƭ̶̞̔ ̶̯̽Щ̶̳̅Σ̷̉ͅ ̵̠̔ᄃ̵̠̈́Ή̷̙͠I̷̝̾Σ̴̳̉F̶̮̄ᄂ̷͙̎Ŷ̴̝ ̶̺̓П̵̣̊Σ̸͕͋Σ̷̥̽D̴̩̕:̸͍͠
̶͚͗P̷̻͌Σ̶̯̈́P̵͈̃P̸̻͘Σ̷͈̊Я̴͉̓ ̴̹̓Λ̸̫̅П̵̘̈́D̵̛̖ ̴̩̌V̷͉́Í̴̞П̶̱͂Σ̵̜͒Ḡ̸̝Λ̶̲͆Я̷͚̚ ̷̨̃B̷̨̿Σ̶̝͝Ƨ̵͓̈́I̴͓͗D̷̮̕Σ̸̠͆Ƨ̶̥̽
̸͖͑Λ̸̟̅Я̴͍͛Σ̸̩͑ ̵̡͋V̷̖͒Σ̸͖̑Я̶̲͛Y̸͜͝ ̸̡͂G̶͂͜Ө̸̬̂Ө̷̳̄D̴̗̽ ̷̫͆I̸͔̕П̵̱͂D̶̖̆Σ̶͇̒Σ̶̑ͅD̸̪̓

(https://i.imgur.com/dyYVSmk.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/LPVNsLY.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/7BOvZQR.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/NsSE16Q.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Iok1Dle.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygdj0ol2OgU
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 19, 2020, 12:40:31 AM
Quote from: Night Queen on April 18, 2020, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: Krath on April 18, 2020, 12:31:25 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 18, 2020, 12:15:45 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 18, 2020, 12:15:03 AM
I haven't played in the Byn in a little while, but at least one thing I see changed is that Lieutenant Copper was like fucking 600 years old

I mean, sorcery will do that to a person.

Lol seriously. Lieutenant Copper was really Tektolnes in disguise/hiding.
"̵̹̊Ƭ̶͕͆Ή̵̣̎Σ̴̞̓ ̵̰́Ƭ̶̯̎I̶̬͑M̷̺̂Σ̶̡͂ ̵̬̏Ή̵̛͍Λ̸̟̍Ƨ̸̣̎ ̴͙̎ᄃ̸̘̾Ө̶̗́M̷̹͌Σ̴͕̄,̴͖́"̶̠͊ ̵̖̐Ƭ̵̯̔Ή̶͉͘Σ̵̪̓ ̶̖̓Щ̵̙̒Λ̵͖̉ᄂ̷̭͂Я̸͚͛Ц̷̤̈́Ƨ̵̨̽ ̸̼̒Ƨ̵̠̆Λ̴͚̇Í̶̱Ḏ̴́,̶͍̈́
̶̨̌"̷̡̄Ƭ̶̜̓Ө̵̦̇ ̷̩̔Ƭ̸̰͠Λ̸̓ͅᄂ̶̛̟K̶͉̆ ̸̗̊Ө̷̢̽Ḟ̵̙ ̷̰̅M̴̻̍Λ̴̨̊П̴̞̏Y̴̱̑ ̸̍͜Ƭ̵̲̈Ή̸͖̽I̴̳̿П̷̤͋G̵͎͑Ƨ̴̩́:̴̺̇
̵̬̓Ө̷̛̫F̶̞̈ ̶̩͑Ƨ̸̲̉Ή̸̠̿Ө̷̪̓Σ̵̹̀Ƨ̷͖͒-̵̛̫-̷͉́Λ̴͉̒П̶̹̍D̴͇̈́ ̷̰̀Ƨ̷͓͠Ή̶̱̄Ȋ̶̲P̷͕͘Ƨ̸̗̿-̷̱̅-̷̹̑Λ̴̥̀П̶̹̈D̶͕͑ ̵̭̽Ƨ̵̩͒Σ̷̟̋Λ̵̼͝ᄂ̴̙̒I̵̩͌П̴̜͘G̴̬̉-̸̤͝Щ̶͈̆Λ̴̹̈́X̵͔̽-̶̼̅-̶̖͛
̴͚͛Ӫ̶̦F̶̭̒ ̷̬̈́ᄃ̷͖̈́Λ̶̛̯B̶̮̍B̴̹̓Λ̶̰̂G̷͙̓Σ̶̖͆Ƨ̸̘̈-̸̪̽-̵̳̚Λ̵͙̀П̶̼́D̷͇̈́ ̷͙͛K̵̮͒Ì̵͚П̷̥̉G̶̘͠Ƨ̴̼̅-̸̨͆-̶̭͛
̸͎̈́Λ̶͖̆П̴̻̅D̸͈̔ ̷͕͂Щ̷̙͗Ή̸̥̿Y̷̞̊ ̸͈̈́Ƭ̸̭̈Ή̵̲̀Σ̵̪̀ ̸̯̕Ƨ̷̪̓Σ̷̹͊Λ̴͓̆ ̶̝̉I̵͈̐Ƨ̵̠̂ ̸̳̕B̶̘̅Ө̷̻͋İ̸͔ᄂ̵̭͝Ȉ̵͖П̷̥͊G̷̼̈́ ̷̰́Ή̷͖̾Ө̷̿͜Ƭ̷̘̿-̴͍͊-̵̙͐
̴͑ͅΛ̷̻͛П̴͚̎Ḑ̶̐ ̵̝͘Щ̷̨̏Ή̴̱̄Σ̵͙́Ƭ̵͖͝Ή̵͓͆Σ̴̡̀Я̵̞͑ ̶̳͠P̴̰̽I̴͕̾G̴̀ͅƧ̵͓̌ ̸͚̌Ή̸̥̈́Λ̷̗̿V̴͚̈Σ̶̪͒ ̶͓̒Щ̴̻̌I̴̥̊П̵̞̄Ḡ̸̥Ƨ̸͕̔.̶͙̔"̵̻̍
̴̘͌
̸̲͠"̴͎̾B̸͔̅Ц̶̙͆Ƭ̴̛̲ ̵̧̎Щ̶̫̍Λ̴̧̚Ỉ̸̪Ƭ̷͍̋ ̷͖̕Λ̷̧͒ ̴͇̐B̸͍͆I̴̬͒Ƭ̵̳́,̶̥̀"̵͠ͅ ̸̢̓Ƭ̸̰͛Ή̸̼̂Σ̶̣͗ ̴̘̿Ө̶͎͛Ŷ̵̪Ƨ̵̝̄Ƭ̸̥̔Σ̵̲̅Я̴͉͆Ƨ̷̳͝ ̷͕̈ᄃ̵̢̿Я̴͉̈́I̵̟̿Σ̴̗̌D̵̯̉,̵̙͂
̷̗̄"̶͉͑B̵͚̄Σ̴̱̓F̵̛̗Ө̷̱͆Я̷͉̈Σ̴̛̬ ̷̬͝Щ̴̼͂Σ̵͂ͅ ̷̢̓Ή̶̧͠Λ̴̥̓V̴̧̇Σ̵͍͒ ̶̬̈Ӫ̸̳Ц̸̤̑Я̴̘̓ ̴̜͠ᄃ̴͈͛Ή̸͙̈́Λ̵̝̔Ƭ̸͈̏;̵̖͘
̶̼̓F̸̗͂Ө̷͖͑Я̵͉̚ ̶̝̊Ƨ̴̜̿Ө̴͊ͅM̵͕̕Σ̶̧̌ ̷̲̂Ө̵̩̚F̶̻̓ ̸̡̛Ц̴̙́Ƨ̶̧͘ ̷̹́Λ̵̹̿Я̶̫̅Σ̸͎̀ ̵͓̚Ө̷̛͈Ц̵̦̀Ƭ̴̘̏ ̴̝̎Ө̷̝͝F̵̛͇ ̷̻̾B̴̯̏Я̵͚̂Σ̸̣̊Λ̷̬̾Ƭ̷͇̒Ή̴̧͌,̴̩̓
̶͓̈Λ̵͌͜П̸͉͠D̷͙̿ ̷̫͛Λ̴̠̓ᄂ̸̜̃ᄂ̷̹̕ ̵̳̆Ө̸̮͗F̶̥͗ ̸̭͑Ц̷̂͜Ƨ̵̭̈́ ̴̳̅Λ̸̡̆Я̵̨͌Σ̷͍́ ̵̥͋F̸̻̚Λ̸̖̍Ƭ̶̭̎!̸̺̾"̶̟̈
̴̨̍"̷͉͊П̷̱́Ө̶͍̇ ̸͙̆Ή̸̯̔Ц̶̡͑Я̸̪̈́Я̸̓ͅŸ̸̧!̸̗̇"̸̬̈́ ̷̨̂Ƨ̸̯͘Λ̴̞̐I̸͚̋D̶͙͝ ̵͇̊Ƭ̴̻̕Ή̸̫̄Σ̶̯͝ ̸̞̈́ᄃ̵͈̋Λ̸̯̌Я̸̨̑P̷̝̈Σ̴͖̓П̶͘ͅƬ̸̫̒Σ̶̤̌Я̵͈̈́.̸̥̚
̵̹̍Ƭ̶͚͗Ή̵̡̋Σ̸́ͅÝ̷̲ ̵̗́Ƭ̸̝̀Ή̵͓̆Λ̴͇̚П̷̼̆K̷̨͌Σ̷̘̉D̶̡̏ ̸̨̂Ή̵̤́Į̵́Ḿ̸̪ ̵̗̚M̵̱͠Ц̴̫͌ᄃ̷̧͝Ή̶̧́ ̴͖̈F̸̯͊Ө̴̣́Я̴̺̔ ̵͕̈Ƭ̷̯̋Ή̸̮̒Λ̴͔̉Ƭ̸͎̄.̴̹̈́
̸͓̒
̸̻̓"̶͉̓Λ̸͚̑ ̸̮̆ᄂ̷̩̾Ө̸̣̒Λ̴̦̈F̴̗̊ ̵̜͝Ө̶͔͝F̵̅͜ ̷̪̈B̵̺̿Я̴̧̿Σ̸̦̈Λ̸̻̍D̴͇̎,̶̥͝"̴̗̒ ̷̙̑Ƭ̵̟͆Ή̶̡̓Σ̶̝́ ̵̘͋Щ̷̦͋Λ̵͍͑ᄂ̵̪̋Я̵̯̀Ц̸̳̏Ƨ̸͈̃ ̷̖̉Ƨ̸̫̂Λ̶̯́Į̷́D̸̠́,̵̛̟
̶͎̽"̴͇̆I̴̙͐Ƨ̷̩̚ ̸̟̊Щ̴̲̄Ή̸̹̌Λ̷̯̈́Ƭ̶̞̔ ̶̯̽Щ̶̳̅Σ̷̉ͅ ̵̠̔ᄃ̵̠̈́Ή̷̙͠I̷̝̾Σ̴̳̉F̶̮̄ᄂ̷͙̎Ŷ̴̝ ̶̺̓П̵̣̊Σ̸͕͋Σ̷̥̽D̴̩̕:̸͍͠
̶͚͗P̷̻͌Σ̶̯̈́P̵͈̃P̸̻͘Σ̷͈̊Я̴͉̓ ̴̹̓Λ̸̫̅П̵̘̈́D̵̛̖ ̴̩̌V̷͉́Í̴̞П̶̱͂Σ̵̜͒Ḡ̸̝Λ̶̲͆Я̷͚̚ ̷̨̃B̷̨̿Σ̶̝͝Ƨ̵͓̈́I̴͓͗D̷̮̕Σ̸̠͆Ƨ̶̥̽
̸͖͑Λ̸̟̅Я̴͍͛Σ̸̩͑ ̵̡͋V̷̖͒Σ̸͖̑Я̶̲͛Y̸͜͝ ̸̡͂G̶͂͜Ө̸̬̂Ө̷̳̄D̴̗̽ ̷̫͆I̸͔̕П̵̱͂D̶̖̆Σ̶͇̒Σ̶̑ͅD̸̪̓

(https://i.imgur.com/dyYVSmk.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/LPVNsLY.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/7BOvZQR.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/NsSE16Q.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Iok1Dle.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygdj0ol2OgU

The only GDB poster I am scared of and will defer to.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 21, 2020, 12:22:17 PM
Quote-Updated things Javascript can do.
o.o
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on May 05, 2020, 01:29:16 PM
If mounts can have loot packed to them that saves with you if they're hitched to you, why can't carts keep their cargo across crashes or reboots?

The appeal of carts is strongly diminished by that lack of saving contents over reboots/crashes.

Slightly related, but don't tents have the ability to save items across reboots/crashes in them? Am I wrong here?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 05, 2020, 01:49:59 PM
Quote from: Harmless on May 05, 2020, 01:29:16 PM
...Slightly related, but don't tents have the ability to save items across reboots/crashes in them? Am I wrong here?

Only if the tent room is a 'save' room, which I don't believe they are.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 05, 2020, 02:12:59 PM
The pitched tent object is technically what we call a wagon (see below), which creates an inside room in a specified range of save rooms.

Mounts are NPCs and have specific code that causes them to save, if they are linked to a character via hitch or the character being mounted upon them.  If they aren't linked in this way, they are not saved.

Carts are neither of those things (nor are they technically "wagons", objects which also have their own specific save code).  They don't save because they would need code specific to them to enable that, which has not been put in place.  They don't link to a character like mounts, and we don't want them to save like wagons.  Feel free to discuss (in a different thread, not here) why you think they should save and how.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on May 05, 2020, 09:05:56 PM
well, I won't make a new thread just yet as I am no expert on this content, Brokkr, but I will say this. It should be pretty obvious why carts have limited usefulness if they can't save your stuff -- crashes can happen at literally any time, and they tend to happen unpredictably -- if you put an object down in any room that isn't a save room you need to be prepared to lose it all -- therefore why would anyone ever trust their cart with their stuff, ever?

You might load a cart up with logs or something, then start taking it to Nak, only to lose it all en route because of a crash mid-journey with no way to get it back. (edit: except reimbursement requests. I guess this means that you'd not want to put a lot of unique items in, and only use it for now to haul duplicates of easily reimbursable things, like bulk materials/logs/stone, and make sure you take a count before you embark.)

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 05, 2020, 10:10:23 PM
Maybe roleplay your cart getting wiped in a server crash as an actual in-game cart crash.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: NinjaFruitSalad on May 06, 2020, 04:24:24 AM
Quote from: Harmless on May 05, 2020, 09:05:56 PM
well, I won't make a new thread just yet as I am no expert on this content, Brokkr, but I will say this. It should be pretty obvious why carts have limited usefulness if they can't save your stuff -- crashes can happen at literally any time, and they tend to happen unpredictably -- if you put an object down in any room that isn't a save room you need to be prepared to lose it all -- therefore why would anyone ever trust their cart with their stuff, ever?

You might load a cart up with logs or something, then start taking it to Nak, only to lose it all en route because of a crash mid-journey with no way to get it back. (edit: except reimbursement requests. I guess this means that you'd not want to put a lot of unique items in, and only use it for now to haul duplicates of easily reimbursable things, like bulk materials/logs/stone, and make sure you take a count before you embark.)

Here is your cart topic.  :)

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55700.0.html
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MatisseOrOtherwise on May 07, 2020, 02:42:38 PM
Not a release note, but I'm not making a whole new topic for "staff announcement replies":

As someone with Romani roots, THANK YOU for finally tending to that iffy little bit of Armageddon lore. I look forward to seeing the Muarki in play. :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 10, 2020, 11:44:32 AM
OMG, the helm code! Sweetness!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on May 10, 2020, 08:51:40 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1046437.html#msg1046437- Added command 'feed' to allow for feeding and caring for one's mount.
- Based on how well they are fed will determine the increase in their stamina regeneration.
- Mount races have three different categories of foods.
- Foods they prefer to eat, foods they find acceptable and foods they will eat begrudgingly.
- All other foods they will refuse to eat.
- Mounts will eat more food based on their size.  The larger the amount the more they need to eat to gain the benefit.
- Most mounts will now automatically graze for food to feed themselves when they are in certain areas that are considered their natural habitat.
- Grazing will also provide some stamina regeneration bonus to a lesser degree than feeding one's mount.
- Mounts should only graze when they are standing and not carrying a rider.

- See 'help feed' for details.

As always, reporting issues and providing feedback (pun intended) is appreciated as we look to create other related features.

Staff are building Farmville, and I absolutely love it. :D

A couple directions one could go with This Sort of Thing that I would find enjoyable:

(1) Increase the value of specific mount animals. Imagine if animals had ride/charge/trample skills that could be trained:
-- It would matter whether you got your own mount or a different animal.
-- Taming mounts could be made less hokey than the current mechanism.
-- Delivering well-trained animals is suddenly an important career.

(2) Extend some of the mount and feed code to other domestic animals: chalton, escru, etc.
-- Make it possible to buy and feed 'em; add a chance of well-fed mixed-sex populations spawning young.
-- Make it possible to move them around without resorting to "subdue." (Stupid simple option: allow "hitch" with a skill check against ride.)
-- For escru, make it possible to extract milk and wool without slaughtering the animal.
-- Then I can start the Armageddon ranch I've wanted since 2010, and die defending it. :)

(As with, e.g., cooking, campfires, teapots, etc., I'm sure you can just ignore most of this stuff if it ain't your kind of fun. And it's important that you don't actually have to learn these kinds of details as a brand new player.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: betweenford on May 10, 2020, 11:20:53 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on May 10, 2020, 08:51:40 PM
(2) Extend some of the mount and feed code to other domestic animals: chalton, escru, etc.
-- Make it possible to buy and feed 'em; add a chance of well-fed mixed-sex populations spawning young.
-- Make it possible to move them around without resorting to "subdue." (Stupid simple option: allow "hitch" with a skill check against ride.)
-- For escru, make it possible to extract milk and wool without slaughtering the animal.
-- Then I can start the Armageddon ranch I've wanted since 2010, and die defending it. :)
Current iterations of escru are milkable and shearable, but not hitchable if they're the readily milkable/shearable ones.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HeeBeeGB on May 11, 2020, 02:03:29 PM
I like the job opportunities that might provide (along Brytta's line of thinking) of rustlers and trainers, who can sell you a better-trained mount than what you get in the stores. Having things like increased capacity, longer distance stamina, less chance of bucking you in a fight, or being docile enough to be double hitched (pack animal for those who can typically only hitch one mount at a time) sound like interesting additions that make Tamers appealing.

Could even be a sub-class option, or included with things like Dune Trader and what not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 11, 2020, 02:30:40 PM
I still want to make an MMH that sells carob nuts and gysahl greens solely to provide you with the best mount stats before the eventual "mount mating" code comes in.

You know you want that glittering, golden erdlu.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on May 11, 2020, 03:36:22 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 11, 2020, 02:30:40 PM
before the eventual "mount mating" code comes in.

And mount genetics.

I might want this too much.

The small, muscular man says, in northern-accented sirihish,
  "Almanzo Wilder's the name. I got better horses than you be."
The small, muscular man says, in northern-accented sirihish,
  "Say, I have caaandy^H^H^H^H^H^H a pretty swell cart."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on May 11, 2020, 09:44:00 PM
Is this stam regen going to interact with stables somehow?  Are there any plans for stabling functions to change?  A little further down this path looks like a pretty dramatic, but awesome direction for wilderness life and travel.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on May 11, 2020, 09:52:49 PM
This feeding mount code I have asked for a long time.  You guys did it!  I am moved to tears today, thank you!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on May 12, 2020, 08:59:17 AM
Would like to see NPC soldiers all have "soldier" be the default noun when they're wearing helmets/helms that cover their faces. I believe this is specific to one particular helmet which I "idea'd" already in game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 12, 2020, 09:03:54 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on May 12, 2020, 08:59:17 AM
Would like to see NPC soldiers all have "soldier" be the default noun when they're wearing helmets/helms that cover their faces. I believe this is specific to one particular helmet which I "idea'd" already in game.

Same with the ones that stand guard at clanned compounded, but as "guard".
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 12, 2020, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: Barsook on May 12, 2020, 09:03:54 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on May 12, 2020, 08:59:17 AM
Would like to see NPC soldiers all have "soldier" be the default noun when they're wearing helmets/helms that cover their faces. I believe this is specific to one particular helmet which I "idea'd" already in game.

Same with the ones that stand guard at clanned compounded, but as "guard".

Bug the NPCs, I would say. I found a Templar the other day who was only showing up as "the tall male in a helm" despite the code changes, and it might have had something to do with an outdated robe object.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on May 12, 2020, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 12, 2020, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: Barsook on May 12, 2020, 09:03:54 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on May 12, 2020, 08:59:17 AM
Would like to see NPC soldiers all have "soldier" be the default noun when they're wearing helmets/helms that cover their faces. I believe this is specific to one particular helmet which I "idea'd" already in game.

Same with the ones that stand guard at clanned compounded, but as "guard".

Bug the NPCs, I would say. I found a Templar the other day who was only showing up as "the tall male in a helm" despite the code changes, and it might have had something to do with an outdated robe object.

I actually think it's the helm - I've seen other NPCs wearing the same one and it obscures their sdesc.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 12, 2020, 08:20:04 PM
Seeing a templar NPC not show up with a templar is actually due to their robe object, not the helm itself. So I was told. Please continue to bug them.

I'm wondering though if maybe the "chitin black helm" or whatever should be exempted from hiding the sdesc, simply because it seems to be really popular with NPCs.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on May 12, 2020, 08:56:02 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 12, 2020, 08:20:04 PM

I'm wondering though if maybe the "chitin black helm" or whatever should be exempted from hiding the sdesc, simply because it seems to be really popular with NPCs.

seconded, and I would generally want more helms to have a visor/veil up by default
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 12, 2020, 09:02:13 PM
I love this helmet change!

I used to complain in game that I have no idea what haircut the person has if they are wearing a helm.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 18, 2020, 08:11:45 AM
Quote
    05/17/2020
        Luirs to soon follow with like-update.
        --Shabago
        QoL - Nak Tool shop updated! Missing tools now in place to tackle certain crafts
        --Shabago

Thank you!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 16, 2020, 10:58:22 AM
Quote
House Kasix mount breeding ranch has been de-virtualized.

Why are staff always tempting me to store my character with totally radical content like animal husbandry. I felt the same when carts got released.

Baaaaaaa.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cali on July 16, 2020, 12:18:46 PM
QuoteHouse Kasix mount breeding ranch has been de-virtualized

(https://meme.xyz/uploads/posts/t/l-40686-y-tho.jpg)

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: zealus on July 16, 2020, 12:29:16 PM
Quote from: cali on July 16, 2020, 12:18:46 PM
QuoteHouse Kasix mount breeding ranch has been de-virtualized

<Whythough.jpeg>

Possibly to add stuff to the game, perhaps to ease future reopening of Kassix? Wild speculation go
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 16, 2020, 12:37:22 PM
Quote from: zealus on July 16, 2020, 12:29:16 PM
Quote from: cali on July 16, 2020, 12:18:46 PM
QuoteHouse Kasix mount breeding ranch has been de-virtualized

<Whythough.jpeg>

Possibly to add stuff to the game, perhaps to ease future reopening of Kassix? Wild speculation go

Why though? This is why, too. People want it.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on May 11, 2020, 03:36:22 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 11, 2020, 02:30:40 PM
before the eventual "mount mating" code comes in.

And mount genetics.

I might want this too much.

And I know a bunch of peeps who agree and also have wanted more farming/beast domestication RP.

Poor elves are missing out though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 16, 2020, 12:56:48 PM
QuoteHouse Kasix mount breeding ranch has been de-virtualized

If the following gets out to the general public, I might have to smack a bitch over it.

SQUEEEEEEEE!

The above never happened. Carry on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 16, 2020, 02:57:56 PM
i can't wait to breed a gold chocobo erdlu
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 16, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
Quote from: triste on July 16, 2020, 12:37:22 PM
Poor elves are missing out though.

in b4 desert elf mount breeding ranch.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 16, 2020, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 16, 2020, 03:11:03 PM
Quote from: triste on July 16, 2020, 12:37:22 PM
Poor elves are missing out though.

in b4 desert elf mount breeding ranch.

Are desert elf mounts just other desert elves?

Take me to the ranch baby. Elfbutts.

😏
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: NinjaFruitSalad on July 16, 2020, 04:18:49 PM
Don't worry, elves won't be left out.

Soon they will be getting access to elf-only torture devices, and some new serial killer NPCs that only attack elves will be added to the Rinth!    :P
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mirk_o_loio on July 16, 2020, 06:07:04 PM
Mount genetics, eh. Will we soon see an increase of mutated beetles and whatnot as all the closet zoophiles go and mudsex their mounts to add new breed variations to laugh at?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pale Horse on July 16, 2020, 08:20:25 PM
Behold, my daughter creation!

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fma/images/4/4f/Nina_ChimeraForm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081113020905)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on July 17, 2020, 01:10:13 PM
Ofcourse elves won't be left out. Who do you think will be raiding these ranches and scurrying away with the golden escrus
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 17, 2020, 01:12:38 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2020, 01:10:13 PM
Ofcourse elves won't be left out. Who do you think will be raiding these ranches and scurrying away with the golden escrus

Now that is a pragmatic and doc conforming mindset! [Still wish elves got more code love]
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on July 17, 2020, 01:36:18 PM
They got miscreants. Infallible stealth is plenty code love.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 17, 2020, 01:49:58 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2020, 01:36:18 PM
They got miscreants. Infallible stealth is plenty code love.

They also have a salt-focused tribe, seems topical.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 07:02:01 PM
Well, what if an elf decided to focus on something that wasn't thievery?

I know, wild thought, isn't it?  ::)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dresan on July 17, 2020, 07:04:54 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2020, 01:36:18 PM
They got miscreants. Infallible stealth is plenty code love.

At this point even if city elves were given the ability to run like desert elves I doubt that it would make up for how much content in this game is denied to them.

I really feel the help file do not stress this enough, and new players go into the game thinking they are just going to be playing with a physically weak character.  Not realizing that even half-elves have much more play-ability in clans then elves do.


Miscreants are not that much more awesome on elves then they are human/half-elf who have all around better stats/bonuses plus the ability to ride and wear better gear which is often heavy on elves. I think even a dwarf would make a pretty awesome stalker/miscreant with enough gear but I've never tried yet. 

Combat is arguably better(?), depending on what side of the strength vs agility debate you land on and how much combat you intend to do with a miscreant.  Elves are better infiltrators then other races I suppose but stealth is still kinda crap on them too, not to mention almost every other skill is just as crap as anyone else .  :-\

Just to add:
The amount of problems city elves have is really not even limited to just code. I love elves but sadly I don't believe a city elf tribe it will address their issues.

I suspect if the staff open the Juxa Pah or something similar it'll quickly de-escalate to Red Fangs event. It'll just end up in a lot of pking. While fun, its not a long term solution for elves.

On the other hand something like the bejeweled hand is definitely not something I would join if I want to maximize my personal fun especially since two-moon d-elf clan is a slightly more interesting option already. But that is just my just my opinion and preference.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 17, 2020, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: Dresan on July 17, 2020, 07:04:54 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2020, 01:36:18 PM
They got miscreants. Infallible stealth is plenty code love.

At this point even if city elves were given the ability to run like desert elves I doubt that it would make up for how much content in this game is denied to them.

I really feel the help file do not stress this enough, and new players go into the game thinking they are just going to be playing with a physically weak character.  Not realizing that even half-elves have much more play-ability in clans then elves do.


I didn't mean to throw a match into a tinderbox on this thread, but love it!

(´ ε ` )♡
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on July 17, 2020, 09:27:09 PM
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 07:02:01 PM
Well, what if an elf decided to focus on something that wasn't thievery?

I know, wild thought, isn't it?  ::)

Yes. We should boycott the game until they run a blue robe Elf role call.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 09:31:26 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2020, 09:27:09 PM
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 07:02:01 PM
Well, what if an elf decided to focus on something that wasn't thievery?

I know, wild thought, isn't it?  ::)

Yes. We should boycott the game until they run a blue robe Elf role call.

One can dream, right?  If the humans even bothered to study elf psychology, maybe they'd kidnap a few elf babies and raise them as part of their "tribe". Then imagine, stealthy blue-robed templar assassins everyone prays are not lurking in the same room as they badmouth the Highlord and His templars!    ;D

Would not even have to worry about them committing treason.. the treachery against the Highlord would be unthinkable!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on July 17, 2020, 10:06:30 PM
I volunteer to play a brainwashed elven templar.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 7dwarves on July 17, 2020, 11:50:30 PM
QuoteJaxa Pah
QuoteRed Fangs

Sorry, all I could focus on in this thread. Don't mind me, carry on.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: number13 on July 18, 2020, 08:56:10 AM
Should be noted, in the source material, there is such a thing as elven templars.

Somewhere along the way, all of the various races in Arm got turned up to 11, and became farcical stereotypes of themselves.

Most elves in Dark Sun are nomadic herders. A few elves are raiders, and a few elves are nomadic traders. A few of these traders set up semi-permanent markets -- these are the c-elves of Armageddon. Except, nonsensically, the c-elves of Armageddon can't actually run trade caravans effectively.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Doublepalli on July 18, 2020, 10:06:12 AM
Jaxah Pah was shut down, and staff don't support elf clans because they are TOO GOOD at it.

The elf tribe mentality, the loyalty and honesty - it's not mantis psionic link level but it's damn close.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: 7dwarves on July 18, 2020, 10:38:46 AM
Quote from: Doublepalli on July 18, 2020, 10:06:12 AM
Jaxah Pah was shut down, and staff don't support elf clans because they are TOO GOOD at it.

The elf tribe mentality, the loyalty and honesty - it's not mantis psionic link level but it's damn close.

You'd be surprised at the amount of rivalry and betrayal that happens between elves of the same tribe. They're families but they're not always functional.

And I'm not talking about badly played elves.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on July 18, 2020, 12:33:03 PM
Quote from: number13 on July 18, 2020, 08:56:10 AM
Should be noted, in the source material, there is such a thing as elven templars.

Should it be? Noted that is.  Dark sun is not Armageddon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 18, 2020, 12:36:40 PM
Friendly mansa reminder.

Let's save this thread for release note discussions and move the elf butts to another thread.

:)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 23, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
Quote
July 23rd, 2020 (Thursday)

(Nessalin)
-Fixed some crash bugs.
-Contracting someone now echos their modified sdesc (the hooded figure) rather than their true sdesc (the blue-eyed disc-jockey)

ERHMYGAWD

staff listening to player feedback gets me so verklempt
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on July 23, 2020, 12:11:10 PM
[Edit: Nevermind, I think this is a separate complaint.]
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Saiseiki on July 23, 2020, 01:28:10 PM
Quote from: triste on July 23, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
Quote
July 23rd, 2020 (Thursday)

(Nessalin)
-Fixed some crash bugs.
-Contracting someone now echos their modified sdesc (the hooded figure) rather than their true sdesc (the blue-eyed disc-jockey)

ERHMYGAWD

staff listening to player feedback gets me so verklempt

Indeed.  An elegant solution.  I love it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on July 23, 2020, 01:31:18 PM
One implication I LOVE is when someone contacts you by name they will get your hooded sdesc. Why is that aide (secretly a guild spy) wearing a shabby hood? That's pretty weird.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 23, 2020, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Lotion on July 23, 2020, 01:31:18 PM
One implication I LOVE is when someone contacts you by name they will get your hooded sdesc. Why is that aide (secretly a guild spy) wearing a shabby hood? That's pretty weird.

A question arises of how to roleplay it, does one see an image of who they way when they way them? Can you roleplay that you know?

Arguably if you way by sdesc or name you should just see the sdesc for this solution to be ideal. But coding that would be a pain in the ass given the likelihood of keyword collision/overlap.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on July 23, 2020, 02:03:35 PM
When you psi someone you just get to see their sdesc anyway but they also get to see yours. I wonder if we'll end up seeing a lot more contact send a single vauge psi cease as the metaplayers adapt.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kyviantre on July 23, 2020, 03:27:01 PM
Quote from: triste on July 23, 2020, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Lotion on July 23, 2020, 01:31:18 PM
One implication I LOVE is when someone contacts you by name they will get your hooded sdesc. Why is that aide (secretly a guild spy) wearing a shabby hood? That's pretty weird.

A question arises of how to roleplay it, does one see an image of who they way when they way them? Can you roleplay that you know?

Arguably if you way by sdesc or name you should just see the sdesc for this solution to be ideal. But coding that would be a pain in the ass given the likelihood of keyword collision/overlap.

I've always RP'd (since the dawn of my playtime) that Waying gives me nada in the way of physical characteristics of the person...maybe with hints of them if I talk to them a bunch (race and gender being the first 'hints').  So, if I've only Way'd a person, unless they say in person "Hi, I'm Amos, we talked before!", I'll not recognise them on the street.  There was something in the helpfiles once about how you can display a 'picture' using the Way by describing it (like expressing feelings via the Way), so it came from that.

So...I'm going to keep on assuming I don't see what they look like.  But I might be alone in this, so your mileage may vary.  I know it -used- to feel a lot more common to do what I do, while these days people seem to auto-recognise a lot more...maybe I'm just old school?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: flurry on July 23, 2020, 08:21:10 PM
It's all fun and games until you contact a templar and their sdesc comes back with the naked tag.

But seriously, this is a cool change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kyviantre on July 23, 2020, 08:40:42 PM
Quote from: flurry on July 23, 2020, 08:21:10 PM
It's all fun and games until you contact a templar and their sdesc comes back with the naked tag.

But seriously, this is a cool change.

*makes a note* Next character will be a nudist...for this very reason. *cackles*
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Ansel on July 24, 2020, 03:57:09 AM
The initial contact shows the hooded sdesc, but any further psionic message still show the true sdesc.

Not sure if that's a feature or a bug, but just pointing it out from one day of testing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kyviantre on July 24, 2020, 06:16:55 AM
I think there is something odd with people being maybe in the dark?  I got 'You connect to someone.' rather than any sdesc yesterday.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on July 24, 2020, 10:30:24 AM
Quote from: Kyviantre on July 24, 2020, 06:16:55 AM
I think there is something odd with people being maybe in the dark?  I got 'You connect to someone.' rather than any sdesc yesterday.

That's probably going to be the experience going forward.

I think you can justify it as ...   you're using the way to connect to someone but you aren't sure who it is until you send off that first communication.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Harmless on July 24, 2020, 10:42:39 AM
So to prevent your true appearance from being snooped, you repeatedly expel and or just barrier to block a worded message from being psionically sent.

Cool!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on July 28, 2020, 04:13:06 AM
This is a BAD change.

Why? It gives away users of certain spells.
It doesn't matter if you travel to the other end of the known and only use it in some remote area of the Grey Forest, as soon as someone contacts you while you're using that spell, they'll know your secret. I assumed this is not working as intended, but staff confirmed that it is supposed to work this way.

This is a problem for mundanes to a lesser extent. "Minion, why are you hiding/in the dark/wearing a tattered red stormcloak!?"

Barrier is not an effective protection against this, it's easily broken even for chars that have high-ish wisdom.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 28, 2020, 06:15:31 AM
Quote from: Nao on July 28, 2020, 04:13:06 AM
This is a BAD change.

Why? It gives away users of certain spells.
It doesn't matter if you travel to the other end of the known and only use it in some remote area of the Grey Forest, as soon as someone contacts you while you're using that spell, they'll know your secret. I assumed this is not working as intended, but staff confirmed that it is supposed to work this way.

This is a problem for mundanes to a lesser extent. "Minion, why are you hiding/in the dark/wearing a tattered red stormcloak!?"

Barrier is not an effective protection against this, it's easily broken even for chars that have high-ish wisdom.

Yeah that is a little alarming. It is worth noting that when people asked for this change, I believe players were asking to see the sdesc of who Wayed you, not the other way around [which is what was implemented ultimately]. The idea was people might have a little more shame and be less twinkish if this were the case. Staff implemented this the other way around, which does address the problem, in part, but does have side effects. Possible there were code constraints in the first approach that led to this implementation.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 28, 2020, 07:48:22 AM
Quote from: Ansel on July 24, 2020, 03:57:09 AM
The initial contact shows the hooded sdesc, but any further psionic message still show the true sdesc.

Not sure if that's a feature or a bug, but just pointing it out from one day of testing.

I think that's the point. You don't get to find out if the person you just wayed is the person you intended to way, until you let THEM know who YOU are by "psi"ing them.

It reduces the instances where people will contact someone wearing a hood to find out who that person is.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lizzie on July 28, 2020, 07:53:41 AM
I like the idea. You want to know who I am, while I'm wearing my hood up 4 rooms away while hiding in the shadows? Then psi me a message, thus outing yourself to me first.

Otherwise, you'll just keep finding the tall hooded figure in a ratty purple silk cloak, over and over again.

On the other hand, if you are trying to find Amos and know his name...
and you keep finding the tall hooded figure in that purple cloak - you'll know Amos is over there - or at least you'll be able to assume with some moderate amount of confidence, that the hooded guy is Amos. No, Amos won't get to know that it's you who just found out it's him.

However -

If Amos is a clever girl, he'll have an identical cloak he gives to some grebber and pays the grebber to hide out 4 rooms away from you, while Amos is wearing the same cloak and is robbing your apartment on the other side of the city.

I really like this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 28, 2020, 10:46:20 AM
Yeah, it's a good feature, but I am now convinced it needs tweaking after what Nao mentions, if what she says is correct. I don't want to find out an ally IG is a gick through a largely OOC mechanism like this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HortaCulture on July 28, 2020, 11:13:31 AM
Quote from: triste on July 28, 2020, 10:46:20 AM
Yeah, it's a good feature, but I am now convinced it needs tweaking after what Nao mentions, if what she says is correct. I don't want to find out an ally IG is a gick through a largely OOC mechanism like this.

Yeah.. it's.. some of the side effects are awkward. The intent is solid and works for what it's intended to do.. but I don't want to learn people are gicks over the way, or say, know that they're naked. That's too safe. I want to walk in on you casting or kanking that aide (and freak out in a higher risk environment).

I feel like I shouldn't be able to spy on your immediate status via the way, unless I'm a psion, in which case all bets are off.

Are the code constraints too intense to set it up so you contact 'someone' over the way and thus must confirm it's the right 'someone'? Without all the 'hey babee what're u wearin, wait I already kno *wry*' stuff?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 28, 2020, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: HortaCulture on July 28, 2020, 11:13:31 AM
Quote from: triste on July 28, 2020, 10:46:20 AM
Yeah, it's a good feature, but I am now convinced it needs tweaking after what Nao mentions, if what she says is correct. I don't want to find out an ally IG is a gick through a largely OOC mechanism like this.

Yeah.. it's.. some of the side effects are awkward. The intent is solid and works for what it's intended to do.. but I don't want to learn people are gicks over the way, or say, know that they're naked. That's too safe. I want to walk in on you casting or kanking that aide (and freak out in a higher risk environment).

I feel like I shouldn't be able to spy on your immediate status via the way, unless I'm a psion, in which case all bets are off.

Are the code constraints too intense to set it up so you contact 'someone' over the way and thus must confirm it's the right 'someone'? Without all the 'hey babee what're u wearin, wait I already kno *wry*' stuff?

Yeah, a good solution may be what I am very sure people were asking for to begin with -- you only know who is waying you. It addresses way sniffing this way. Instead of seeing:

A foreign presence touches your mind.

A foreign presence leaves your mind.

A foreign presence touches your mind.

A foreign presence leaves your mind.

A foreign presence touches your mind.

A foreign presence leaves your mind.

You see:

A nosy, tressy aide touches your mind.

A foreign presence leaves your mind.

The scabby, rat-tailed elf touches your mind.

A foreign presence leaves your mind.

A ripped, world-worn mercenary touches your mind.

A foreign presence leaves your mind.

This at least provides hints to the people being victimized by way touching. They now know that aide is annoying and just way sniffed you, and may have just hired two people to kill you. This is a relatively minimal change that would stop abusive metagaming while fixing the case Nao and many others are worried about.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 28, 2020, 11:53:18 AM
To make the point clear: the goal here is to reduce metagaming, Nao and others are talking about pretty severe metagaming that can be introduced by the current solution so we might want to tweak it. Still happy staff listened to us, to an extent: it is actually valuable to recall that people were requesting a less drastic change and maybe staff didn't have to know better and be so generous. The original proposal was merely to make sdesc information symmetric on the way -- the way it is for psi messages -- but upon initial contact, thus destroying the OOC metagaming tactic of "way tapping." That addresses the problem precisely and doesn't add opportunity for new metagaming [besides minor abuse in some edge cases such as when people accidentally way people, etc].
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: betweenford on July 28, 2020, 01:43:30 PM
Personally I feel like the current implementation is extremely wonky and just promotes additional metagaming culture though to a different extent. People will still (and are able to) "psi-sniff" your sdesc/outfit/hidden/invis/nakedness which gives the outside party way more relevant information than is really necessary. Moreover it doesn't even really stop someone who uses additional keywords to completely sniff out your sdesc via psionics/keyword command if they're in the same room.

I'm all for revealing the outside party's sdesc as a default with some caveats: an outside party (the attacker) can choose to conceal/obscure their outgoing sdesc at the cost of concentration/having to have a skill (while also perhaps sending messages to someone anonymously for extra plotting/politics), and the defending party be able to "challenge" or unveil the hidden mind (but not immediately uncover the sdesc, just end the anonymity) at the cost of having to expend stun points.
Mini-psionic battles of will that might otherwise end in broken anonymity (why is that templar's aide causing trouble?), or curiosity as to why that someone tipped you off about ABC when you can't uncover them.

Situations would end up like this:
Code (normal) Select
The tressy-tressed aide contacts your mind.
The tressy-tressed aide sends you a telepathic message:
     "Heeeeeeeey. *warmth* Just checking in!!!
You sense the tressy-tressed aide withdraw from your mind.

Code (obscured) Select
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A foreign presence sends you a telepathic message:
   "Meet me at the the bench at Theyaks' Walk for your package."
You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind.

Code (mental "combat") Select
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
>>unveil
>You attempt to unveil any concealed minds. (Could roll a vs against every mind individually?) (Could tell the 'attacker' they've been revealed if its a minor success?)
The tressy-tressed aide sends you a telepathic message:
     "Abigail Oash is spreading rumors about you to all the other Lords."
You sense the tressy-tressed aide withdraw from your mind.
The tressy-tressed aide contacts your mind.
The tressy-tressed aide sends you a telepathic message:
     "Actually, ignore that."
You sense the tressy-tressed aide withdraw from your mind.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HeeBeeGB on July 28, 2020, 01:49:26 PM
I wonder if there might be some way to 'recognize' someone's mind. After all, are all these presences foreign after a while? Are there distinctive signatures behind Aide Tressy and Templar Soandso?

If not, I wonder if the true way to ameliorate the problem is making it much harder to contact someone based on their cloak description. It used to be that you could contact people wearing a cloak (contact hooded.brown.sandcloth) even if they weren't in the same room as you. That was changed so you had to be in the same room as them. I wonder if it might be made even more difficult, which presents the opportunity for hooded people to be more anonymous, criminals to operate with a bit more potential to get away after being seen, and so on.

I don't dislike this change...I suppose I don't entirely see the point of it, beyond whomsoever is fishing for your desc must send you a 'psi' to do so. The other implications (That people under certain spells, that they are naked, or other modifiers) seems a bit too far for what is ostensibly Newbie Psionics, compared to a Mindbender. I don't think people should be able to tell you are naked from afar, it's odd. Before it felt like we were operating with HAM radios, and now it feels a bit like we've jumped to a brief version of FaceTime.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on July 28, 2020, 02:01:37 PM
Yeah agreed HeeBeeGB, it is like everyone now has 20% of the power of a 4 karma mind worm*. It should be changed. If I were playing a gicker with sdesc modifying spells, I wouldn't log in at all right now. I don't trust people /not/ to abuse the sort of knowledge being leaked right now.

* However, I have always been in favor or more low level, accessible psionics. My characters get accused of being mind worms all the time due to their intuition -- I would love to have the chance to actually roleplay one before I die IRL! Therefore, I think ideas like Betweenford's idea here is great and deeply roleplay enriching:
Quote from: betweenford on July 28, 2020, 01:43:30 PM
Code (obscured) Select
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A foreign presence sends you a telepathic message:
   "Meet me at the the bench at Theyaks' Walk for your package."
You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind.


Hell yes, I love this. How is something like this anything but awesome.

Before the conversation here gets cut off with claims that we are cluttering the thread, I think a larger discussion on introducing low-level psionics would be beneficial and it is timely. Great ideas here.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: NinjaFruitSalad on July 28, 2020, 06:06:35 PM
I think only worn items that modify sdesc should be shown over the way.  Otherwise, stuff like hiding, shadows, and magic effects shouldn't.  Would seem more fair, honestly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on July 30, 2020, 06:27:51 PM
Quote from: betweenford on July 28, 2020, 01:43:30 PMA good idea
I think this is a good idea
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: NinjaFruitSalad on July 30, 2020, 07:09:12 PM
Very good idea, betweenford.

Also, I've realized a way to gain meta-knowledge from the code as it is. Supposing you and your friends are hunting down a wanted somebody. Maybe this person is trying to evade capture via stealth and switching out their cloaks to try to confuse and throw off their chasers. Well, nope! Not anymore! Simply contacting that person shows you what cloak they are wearing (if they have it pulled up to obscure their face), and so someone could just contact/cease frequently to know exactly what cloak they are wearing.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on August 22, 2020, 02:52:30 PM
Tuluki Crimcode update?  :o
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: triste on August 22, 2020, 03:02:44 PM
Quote from: Fredd on August 22, 2020, 02:52:30 PM
Tuluki Crimcode update?  :o

Beat me to it, my reaction to this was 👀

Every possible implication of this update is intriguing af
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HortaCulture on August 22, 2020, 04:01:49 PM
QuoteExpanded options for item creation.

Wat is?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Blink on August 22, 2020, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: Fredd on August 22, 2020, 02:52:30 PM
Tuluki Crimcode update?  :o

I am going to make a guess that it will apply to Morin's.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on August 22, 2020, 08:18:49 PM
Intriguing. I'm curious where this starts to blend with a certain guild though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 31, 2020, 04:56:40 PM
Quote from: betweenford on July 28, 2020, 01:43:30 PM
Code (obscured) Select
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A foreign presence sends you a telepathic message:
   "Meet me at the the bench at Theyaks' Walk for your package."
You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind.


Yeah.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pew Pew on August 31, 2020, 05:25:19 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 31, 2020, 04:56:40 PM
Quote from: betweenford on July 28, 2020, 01:43:30 PM
Code (obscured) Select
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
A foreign presence sends you a telepathic message:
   "Meet me at the the bench at Theyaks' Walk for your package."
You sense a foreign presence withdraw from your mind.


This would be fucking epic

Yeah.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: KittenLicks on August 31, 2020, 05:51:56 PM
Personally, I'm curious what this (the change to contact) is going to do to the stealth meta. Can you now hire someone to stay in your mind and tell you if your hide breaks while you're scoping out a mark?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: betweenford on August 31, 2020, 05:56:19 PM
Quote from: KittenLicks on August 31, 2020, 05:51:56 PM
Personally, I'm curious what this (the change to contact) is going to do to the stealth meta. Can you now hire someone to stay in your mind and tell you if your hide breaks while you're scoping out a mark?
Don't mind me, just spamming stat several times every minute.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on September 01, 2020, 02:04:11 AM
Quote from: KittenLicks on August 31, 2020, 05:51:56 PM
Personally, I'm curious what this (the change to contact) is going to do to the stealth meta. Can you now hire someone to stay in your mind and tell you if your hide breaks while you're scoping out a mark?

Remember how people used to complain all the time that Burglars burgled in the early AM's when the player count is like 6?

We are back to that.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 01, 2020, 05:45:26 PM
What if a door couldn't be opened unless the player who owned that door was online?

I suppose then you could say people will metagame by trying to unlock doors, I guess ... eh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: wizturbo on September 01, 2020, 07:12:52 PM
Stealth code shouldn't work in apartment hallways.  Make them no hide.  Problems solved.  Can still burglar but you're taking more risk.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Is Friday on September 01, 2020, 07:16:03 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on September 01, 2020, 07:12:52 PM
Stealth code shouldn't work in hallways or apartments.  Make them no hide.  Problems solved.  Can still burglar but you're taking more risk.
Simple solutions are often the best. It makes no sense to be able to hide in apartment hallways (without magick.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: wizturbo on September 01, 2020, 08:55:11 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on September 01, 2020, 07:12:52 PM
Stealth code shouldn't work in hallways or apartments.  Make them no hide.  Problems solved.  Can still burglar but you're taking more risk.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on September 02, 2020, 02:36:37 AM
I don't know why hiding in apartments would be so hard...

Hallways already have a very very significant penalty to them, though it's likely some were missed/not included.  Again...I think there should be a way to bar the door from inside.  If you don't sleep in your apartment, well...you don't bar the door.  Most of the time, it means you're going to be online when you get burgled.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on September 02, 2020, 11:29:31 AM
Quote from: Armaddict on September 02, 2020, 02:36:37 AM
I don't know why hiding in apartments would be so hard...

Hallways already have a very very significant penalty to them, though it's likely some were missed/not included.  Again...I think there should be a way to bar the door from inside.  If you don't sleep in your apartment, well...you don't bar the door.  Most of the time, it means you're going to be online when you get burgled.

I do think the hall penalty should be increased a bit. I am 100000000000% in favour of a stealth tye being able t train their abilities enough to do near-supernatural stuff. Some of my favourite book series had assassins and thieves that were like this (Shanara had an amazing assassin that got stronger by looking into people eyes when they die and would do stuff like this.) But it is a little to easy to get to that level of skill IMHO. But then again, i don't know what the DC of therolls are in the first plac,e so I could be wrong. Jus my feeling from playing so any stealthies over the years (as my favourite thing to play, followed by Rukkians)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: th3kaiser on September 02, 2020, 12:07:15 PM
I don't really have a dog in this fight as I've not seen this be a problem (have avoided Nak for a while) but have we considered if this is such a big deal why not just increase all stealth skill gains to be like weapon skills. That'd do it right there. No more throwaway miscreants you can stealth max in a couple days of play.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HeeBeeGB on September 02, 2020, 01:42:09 PM
I think stealth just needs to be less binary. You should be able to break stealth with scan and with listen, maybe even be able to 'watch shadow' which puts you on alert for people sneaking around, at a large penalty to your stun.

Part of the issue is how binary the code is. If I don't have skinning, and I have a pile of bone lengths, I can't for the life of me figure out how to separate them into short and long lengths. Similarly, if someone is sneaking around like a ninja, if my PC does not have scan (but has listen), I will never be able to find that sneaky person. The fact that Invisibility is just as easily seen by someone with (master) scan as someone who is hiding points out something is a bit off to me.

I would say Stealth Code is one of the last bastions of old DIKU code that I would love to see updated to be more realistic for both sides.

For instance, they were working on hiding in barrels/crates/chests for Armageddon Reborn. That would be a nice route to take for hiding in general -- Finding objects to hide in or behind, or having to 'hide crowd' for the city rooms. Adding 'search' to all  characters, and it allows them to search the room for hiding spots. So on a crowded street, you might see a 'pavilion' object, and you can 'hide pavilion' to hide behind it. Or, there might be a half-giant soldier you can attempt to hide behind, which only masters would be able to pull off. There could be modifiers added that make it harder or easier to hide. 'hide in barrel' as opposed to 'hide behind barrel', or 'hide behind pavilion' versus 'hide above pavilion'. Climb and Sneak could come into play as modifiers for perceived success.

On the converse, if someone thinks someone is hiding in a person's chest of drawers in their apartment, they can 'search chest' and see if there is a person in it, or behind it, or above it, or below it. They could search the room for shadows (search room), and depending on their listen/scan/search skill, it will yield something or nothing. Perhaps add a timer to the search skill with a specific object or room, so if someone searched it already, they can't do so again for X amount of time. Allowing both sides to utilize 'search' in this fashion I think is a win for both sides.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: KittenLicks on September 02, 2020, 07:34:51 PM
I don't think staff will ever implement something requiring that much work (I mean, why would they? Stealth is neat, but it's probably not a big enough problem to warrant a multi-month long project) but that's a really damn cool idea.

Armageddon has a bunch of furniture objects already. Throw a steep penalty on hiding without a crowd, and allow hide <furniture> and search <furniture> to reach that level of "i'm invisible" everyone gets now. Make it a game of soldiers upturning every table in the tavern trying to find an elf, and the elf trying to find the least conspicuous hiding place. Bonus points if the search skill plays into it, so it has an actual use.

Heck, it even encourages hiding people to think about how they're hiding, which the current code actively discourages, since you can't 'change ldesc' while hidden. Forum kudos to you, HeeBeeGB.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: CodeMaster on September 02, 2020, 09:49:14 PM
Not sure if I still count as discussing the release notes, and I'm not currently very active, but I'll add that stealth has seen power inflation over the years while becoming more featureful.

1. The sleight of hand skill used to not exist, so when you opened a door or drew a weapon such as from a knife belt, everyone would see it happen... and you'd break hide! This made hidden people easier to keep tabs on, and made hidden people who forgot to draw a weapon more vulnerable.  And if you _did_ remember to draw your weapon, you made yourself fair game for the militia.

2. These days new PCs start with higher skills, such as languages (city elves and dwarves could barely speak sirihish!) and contact in particular.  Using the Way while standing used to be extremely risky for non-veteran PCs.  Now it's not, and you can do it while hidden.

3. Subguilds were added, which enabled mixed indoor/outdoor stealth characters.  The new classes were added, which also creates many cool stealth options with fewer sacrifices.  (City stealth used to force you to choose between pickpocket, burglar, and assassin, all of which were specialized and fragile early on.)

4. The biggest one: it used to be that you couldn't move while hidden unless you were shadowing someone.  If you wanted to be undetectable, that meant you had to team up with someone to take point, or shadow one PC to the next in the hopes that they'd bring you where you wanted to be.  It made sneak/hide a little less binary, and rewarded learning people's routines (and these days there are NPCs with routines).

I'd be inclined to revisit 4 as an easy way to nerf stealth a bit -- make it so that moving inside a city breaks hide.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on September 06, 2020, 10:48:58 AM
Quote4. The biggest one: it used to be that you couldn't move while hidden unless you were shadowing someone.  If you wanted to be undetectable, that meant you had to team up with someone to take point, or shadow one PC to the next in the hopes that they'd bring you where you wanted to be.  It made sneak/hide a little less binary, and rewarded learning people's routines (and these days there are NPCs with routines).

Over time I've suggested a few things for stealth, this is probably the 'easiest' thing.  If nothing else, it made it so that people being watchful could actually spot stealthy people entering the room...it wasn't a -notice- from the game, but when you were paranoid, well...you saw more things.

I played stealthies far more than anything else.  I don't really agree that it's -overpowered- or anything, because of just how dependent you are on it in pretty much every scenario to just avoid death.  But I don't like the way it functions in particular relation to more casual use...being able to just walk around the whole city without ever coming out of hiding is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: gotdamnmiracle on January 12, 2021, 03:20:53 PM
Would reducing the scan/watch/listen of NPCs be beneficial? One of the main reasons to twink stealth is to get around soldiers if you're wanted. This means the only way to get +jman is to sneak around PCs with high Scan/listen/watch. Meaning there will be far fewer twink stealths. This is a variation of the combat strategy as its now nigh impossible to get advanced weapons skills through normal means from anything in the game naturally. It's reliant more on other players than animals and gith. This would slow down the skill gain and SHOULD add more risk to sneaky petes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on May 02, 2021, 02:40:13 PM
-Contact no longer applies stun penalties when already in contact or when using barrier

Just my op, but I feel like this 'should' still stun ya when ya goof up and do it?  I'm %99 sure nobody has ever done this on purpose.. but the sting of doing it.. oooooooOOoooOOOoooo :D

It reminds us all to Pay Attention
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 02, 2021, 05:01:06 PM
The words in capitals not being scrambled is great!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 02, 2021, 05:34:32 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on May 02, 2021, 05:01:06 PM
The words in capitals not being scrambled is great!

Thank you staff. <3
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BOXCARS on May 02, 2021, 08:57:36 PM
-Contact no longer applies stun penalties when already in contact or when using barrier


I feel so called out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 02, 2021, 09:07:22 PM
I think I would have liked to see, rather than CAPS to denote unscrambling, enclosing the word in <>. That way you can still yell, ie: making sure that FUCKING YELLING remains a thing, while also being about to denote unscrambled words without yelling.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on May 02, 2021, 09:37:25 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 02, 2021, 09:07:22 PM
I think I would have liked to see, rather than CAPS to denote unscrambling, enclosing the word in <>. That way you can still yell, ie: making sure that FUCKING YELLING remains a thing, while also being about to denote unscrambled words without yelling.

Thank you. The day I get executed for yelling GO HUMP A 'TOK YOU FUCKWIT at a templar in Allundean will be a sad one indeed.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BOXCARS on May 02, 2021, 10:13:05 PM
I prefer italics, bold or underline to all caps. Its a little bit jarring, heavy handed and indistinct what its communicating at times, as evidenced by the raised concern that enunciating a specific word might be confused with yelling.

I say change it to italics. Yelling a word doesn't make it more clear, saying it clearly and specifically does and that might slow you down if you are unfamiliar with a language or talking to someone who is unfamiliar with yours.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 03, 2021, 02:47:56 AM
Not everyone uses the emphasis features though, I know I don't because I prefer *symbols* to shapely words.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on May 03, 2021, 02:53:28 AM
I think there should be a separate formatting independent of bold,italic,underline,caps that should prevent mangling. It's going to be very obnixous if I start putting "random" words in allcaps and someone says "why are you yelling?" and then I have to type `ooc Currently this is the only way to prevent language code from mangling these words that I believe shouldn't be mangled.`
and I will always allcaps those words because what if there's someone not visible in the room who doesn't speak my language? (also why you should use !@#%^&etc. emote targeting in one on one scenes instead of "you your etc.". Imagine you're Amos the Assassin and shadow Amos the Aide into his apartment with Talia the Aide and they start kanking and keep referring to "you" how will you not type `ooc I'm hiding and it's echoing "you" at me. Are you both fondling me?`)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Maso on May 03, 2021, 08:04:22 AM
Quote from: triste on May 03, 2021, 07:43:36 AM

Nothing is perfect but it is funny seeing someone post "Words in caps used to be unscrambled, but the mechanic was weird and easy to abuse," and then we immediately get this feature despite the pitfalls around it being described upon first mention.


I believe this feature existed in its original form before the Way. So it was abused as a technique to overcome language barriers. We now have the Way for this, which is an allowable way to circumvent language barriers, so the need to abuse this feature to that end is basically nullified.

Also, I think the RP culture of Arm has come a long way since then. That was...a very long time ago.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: zealus on May 03, 2021, 08:43:17 AM
Quote from: triste on May 03, 2021, 08:18:50 AM
Sure, you address the "abusable" aspect in your reply but not the "weird," AKA the awkwardness of this feature.

I totally get where the desire for this feature comes from. I can hear unpalatable slang cross language like "gweilo" and "gringo" plain as day, but that has come with practice and I have noticed not everyone is so good at it and most people don't even know what these words mean. That is because people do not typically YELL slang like this. Why would anyone yell secretive slurs like this? I think most people like subtlety in their roleplay rather than YELLING. The feature would be so much more palatable if it weren't dependent on capitalization.

I mean, caps are just funny and jarring. One of my workplaces had a slack channel called #YELLING where you were only allowed to use capslock BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE AGREE CAPS IMPLIES YELLING.

It was hilarious.

Because in this context, it's text, conveying a word not scrambled by the language code, just how the word "Sirihish" implies a language other then english, despite the language being typed is english.

I think it's mostly put back in, because this was how it was done before, therefore the easiest to implement on short notice. I agree that another way of doing it, is preferable, but the caps lock does not ALWAYS imply yelling, sometimes it's used for emphasis ;)

There is a distinct difference between
Hello there, YAJAH
and
YAHJAH! HOW DARE YOU?!

Because the exclamation point is yelling :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 03, 2021, 02:30:03 PM
The functionality is there for when you have a specific need to convey something that should be the same word in both languages.  Like your name.  Not every single time.

Rather than say the word 5 times until they indicate they understand that you are Malik.
Or switching to the Way to convey that your name is Malik, even though the Way should be less useful at conveying your name than words are.

Yajah is the kind of word that is a good example of something this should never, ever, be used for.  Its a word in a specific language, not a proper noun that carries over.  Heck, even Allanak, for instance, might not carry over because Sirihish Allanak and Allundean Black pit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on May 03, 2021, 02:37:34 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 03, 2021, 02:30:03 PM
The functionality is there for when you have a specific need to convey something that should be the same word in both languages.  Like your name.  Not every single time.

Rather than say the word 5 times until they indicate they understand that you are Malik.
Or switching to the Way to convey that your name is Malik, even though the Way should be less useful at conveying your name than words are.

Yajah is the kind of word that is a good example of something this should never, ever, be used for.  Its a word in a specific language, not a proper noun that carries over.  Heck, even Allanak, for instance, might not carry over because Sirihish Allanak and Allundean Black pit.

That needs to be codified somewhere, as there is obvious confusion on this intention.

As there will be even less use for this code now (it is rarely used by intent) there is even more reason to switch away from ALLCAPS being the trigger. ALLCAPS yelling has emphasized some great RP - a normally quiet individual erupts, someone calls out to warn a loved one of danger, a character is REALLY hungry and tired of waiting. Any other symbol would be great. #MyName# or something.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 03, 2021, 03:46:56 PM
I love the idea that we can say the word in both languages, and it be read. But yeah, I'd like to enclose the word in symbols as opposed to all capping it, if it can be done. Because i when scream fuck at gith, they don't need to know the curse I've used on them.

Tell gith (straining against the ropes,  causing the bone stake to creak) ... no ... no ... No ... NOOOOOOO ... augh! ARGH!  Don't rip my other toes ooooff! *Mathoeris* will rip your balls off! No, no. No, NO!!!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on May 10, 2021, 02:41:12 PM
In regards to the new Crafting format is there anyway the implemented changes could be toggled back to normal with one of the "brief" settings?  For us old timers it's a shock to the system seeing it as it reads now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on May 10, 2021, 05:22:58 PM
Seconding Perfecto here.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: valeria on May 10, 2021, 05:24:42 PM
Quote from: perfecto on May 10, 2021, 02:41:12 PM
In regards to the new Crafting format is there anyway the implemented changes could be toggled back to normal with one of the "brief" settings?  For us old timers it's a shock to the system seeing it as it reads now.

This would also be more screen-reader friendly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on May 16, 2021, 05:03:18 PM
Are the <> not working properly for anyone else?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on May 16, 2021, 07:57:35 PM
It looks like if I type
say Hey <yajah> get the fuck out of my <Pah> before the next <Sejah> or else I'm going to send you to <Drov>

I see:
Quote
You say in staccano accented allundean:
" Hey <yajah> get the fuck out of my <Pah> before the next <Sejah> or else I'm going to send you to <Drov>.

But they see:
Quote
The naked well endowed elf with dainty feet and a buxom chest says in an unfamilair tongue:
" asd yahaj as as asdf as as as Pah asdfgh asd asdf Sejah as asdf a's asdfg as asdf asdf as Drov."
(scrambling is done via simple keymash and not representative of what would actually appear)
Seeing the <> in my own say is immersion breaking and it's weird that people see different things in such a meta way.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Maso on May 17, 2021, 05:52:08 AM
Quote from: Lotion on May 16, 2021, 07:57:35 PM

I see:
Quote
You say in staccano accented allundean:
" Hey <yajah> get the fuck out of my <Pah> before the next <Sejah> or else I'm going to send you to <Drov>.

But they see:
Quote
The naked well endowed elf with dainty feet and a buxom chest says in an unfamilair tongue:
" asd yahaj as as asdf as as as Pah asdfgh asd asdf Sejah as asdf a's asdfg as asdf asdf as Drov."
(scrambling is done via simple keymash and not representative of what would actually appear)
Seeing the <> in my own say is immersion breaking and it's weird that people see different things in such a meta way.

Makes sense that you see everything unscrambled, since you know what you said or, at least, what you were intending to say. The recipients potentially see it all varying levels of scrambled depending on language skills.

And keeping the '<' tags in.. meh. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's a bug? I have noticed since the recent update that when someone else uses /'s to italicise it isn't working (e.g. I see /this/ rather than this), but it works fine for me when I use them... Have bugged this. Maybe it's related.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 17, 2021, 03:09:21 PM
By the way, aside from all of these oddities and concerns, staff, thanks for the spat of updates. Loving the look behind the crafts and lists, though there is some polish to apply here and there, and love the new movement types. Love the language thing, too. Really appreciate the time put in to knock some of these bad boys out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Vox on May 17, 2021, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 17, 2021, 03:09:21 PM
By the way, aside from all of these oddities and concerns, staff, thanks for the spat of updates. Loving the look behind the crafts and lists, though there is some polish to apply here and there, and love the new movement types. Love the language thing, too. Really appreciate the time put in to knock some of these bad boys out.

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on May 18, 2021, 11:52:58 AM
Fantastic new changes, you guys are rocking it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 18, 2021, 04:26:33 PM
Quote from: Malken on May 18, 2021, 11:52:58 AM
Fantastic new changes, you guys are rocking it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Delirium on May 18, 2021, 06:02:45 PM
THANK YOU for these QoL additions.

And thank you from this old grouchy glasses-wearing fogey for finding a way to keep it at 80 characters wide  ;D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 21, 2021, 08:55:26 PM
(nessalin)
-Players will now get a wear off message when the combat timer wears off.


I was a bit jarred from the message it echoed to me:
You can now quit.


I think there might be a better message.
Your recent combat excitement has worn off.  You can now quit normally.

or maybe something else?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 21, 2021, 09:03:48 PM
Yeah. That would be better.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on May 21, 2021, 09:50:37 PM
Halaster didn't give adventurers good plant breaking =[
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Bogre on May 22, 2021, 06:18:48 AM

Re: the message, you could have it say:

You feel relaxed enough to rest now.
You feel calm enough after your recent fight.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 22, 2021, 06:46:47 AM
Much better!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Shaydee on May 22, 2021, 11:00:22 AM
Quote from: Bogre on May 22, 2021, 06:18:48 AM

Re: the message, you could have it say:

You feel relaxed enough to rest now.
You feel calm enough after your recent fight.

+1
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: zealus on May 22, 2021, 11:23:24 AM
Quote from: Bogre on May 22, 2021, 06:18:48 AM

Re: the message, you could have it say:

You feel relaxed enough to rest now.
You feel calm enough after your recent fight.

But what does that message mean? I feel that's a little like "That's impossible", no idea who the command failed, but still it didn't work.
Though I can appriciate the current message is a bit jarring, it's clear on what it means :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on May 22, 2021, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: mansa on May 21, 2021, 08:55:26 PM
I think there might be a better message.
Your recent combat excitement has worn off.  You can now quit normally.

Mansa's message is best - it tells you exactly what you can now do without sounding jarring.

When I first saw "You can now quit." it was right after failing an easy craft, so I thought one staff was mocking me, lol!

The other messages proposed are too "flowery"... What does that even mean "You feel calm enough after your recent fight?" Did I just branched Nirvana??
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Maso on May 22, 2021, 01:05:53 PM
Quote from: Malken link=topic=52143.msg1061090#msg1061090
When I first saw "You can now quit." it was right after failing an easy craft, so I thought one staff was mocking me, lol!

LOL!!!

Yeh agreed, Mansa's is nice and super newbie friendly too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 22, 2021, 01:41:39 PM
I'd go for a 2-liner. One line would be the IC effect, and the other the OOC effect.
You feel the recent excitement of combat fade.
- You can once again quit normally.


I'd probably change the wording on the "can't quit" message as well.
"Recent combat has you too excited; you'll need time to relax!
- You were recently in combat, and can't quit yet."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Alesan on May 22, 2021, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 22, 2021, 01:41:39 PM
I'd go for a 2-liner. One line would be the IC effect, and the other the OOC effect.
You feel the recent excitement of combat fade.
- You can once again quit normally.


I'd probably change the wording on the "can't quit" message as well.
"Recent combat has you too excited; you'll need time to relax!
- You were recently in combat, and can't quit yet."


This looks the best to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 22, 2021, 02:03:30 PM
Quote from: Alesan on May 22, 2021, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 22, 2021, 01:41:39 PM
I'd go for a 2-liner. One line would be the IC effect, and the other the OOC effect.
You feel the recent excitement of combat fade.
- You can once again quit normally.


I'd probably change the wording on the "can't quit" message as well.
"Recent combat has you too excited; you'll need time to relax!
- You were recently in combat, and can't quit yet."


This looks the best to me.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on May 23, 2021, 05:55:08 PM
"  -When no skill could be matched with input, error message tells player what they typed
    and that there is no skill by that name.   "

Craft May 24 with pyrotechnics into

-You ain't cool enough to craft that (requires tool)

Think (buzzed) Wellllllll

Contact Kyle

You contact a Redbull fueled idiot

Psi - Hey Whatcha..

*Kyle's foot scrapes along the ground and you turn just in time to squirm away from his Kyle'ness

Subdue Kyle

ass -v Kyle  - Kyle is of below average quality, barely functionable

Etwo Kyle

Craft May 24 with pyrotechnics into #1

Using Kyle
You begin crafting a real good time
8)

Happy May 24 All!!!


(No Kyle's were hurt in the making of this nice jovial message)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on May 26, 2021, 12:45:52 AM
I've noticed that since the recent release notes (since when they revamped crafting) my communication code's gone crazy with the colors. Whereas before it would show the whole output as my 'say' color, for example, now it only does the top line (the emote + language part), and the second line (the actual sentences you say) is basic grey. Is this being addressed? It's lowkey causing me a stress and don't know why.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 26, 2021, 12:49:40 AM
Quote from: Kialae on May 26, 2021, 12:45:52 AM
I've noticed that since the recent release notes (since when they revamped crafting) my communication code's gone crazy with the colors. Whereas before it would show the whole output as my 'say' color, for example, now it only does the top line (the emote + language part), and the second line (the actual sentences you say) is basic grey. Is this being addressed? It's lowkey causing me a stress and don't know why.

I would suggest to create a bug report using the request tool about it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Hauwke on May 26, 2021, 04:30:49 PM
I too am having this issue. My own says are colored though, which is odd.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kialae on May 26, 2021, 11:09:50 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on May 26, 2021, 04:30:49 PM
My own says are colored though, which is odd.

Seconded. I'll make a report tonight along with a screen snip of me talking and someone else talking tonight, when I'm home. My reasoning is the <translation changes> that happened had futzed with the spaghetti a bit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 27, 2021, 01:36:49 AM
I've seen some oddity there too, but I'm also used to [put gaspy pack] becoming combat red, so I didn't pay it much mind.

LOL
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on May 27, 2021, 05:26:21 AM
Same here for all of the oddities.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on August 23, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
Sorry for cross-posting but it really fits in here:

QuoteAugust 22, 2021 (Sunday)

(Tenebrius)
-Fixed issue with not all commands going through for users running Mudlet.  (hopefully)

Thank you!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on August 25, 2021, 02:06:35 PM
Thanks to Halaster, we have a new program that will add and remove shade to rooms based on the time of day.  So its not funky if you see shade disappearing or being somewhere you've never seen before.

They also added it to 50 rooms.


Halaster you never cease to impress me!   I was always excited to see you (back in 96-97) when Imms would poof in and out of the game world on occasion..  Halasters poof out emote was "everyone in the room's head explodes!"  Gud Times :D
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TragicMagick on August 25, 2021, 05:20:12 PM
Badass new release.

Any way this could also be used to show room changes with silt-level on the silt sea? There's a big difference in our world between low and high tides, after all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on August 25, 2021, 05:29:21 PM
You rock, Halaster!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dracul on October 07, 2021, 07:54:41 AM
Maybe not a dedicated release note but I'm glad to see the note about the dedicated staff sorc and ouch, imaging trying to play with one only to have it 'bumped' for a player...that sounds just as disruptive as 'bad actions'.

Glad to see it!

Also appreciate the rare transparency revealed in the posting.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on October 07, 2021, 09:06:05 AM
I am glad there is open slots and staff WILL and can fill them in the Sorc and PSi roles. The fun and adventure that can come from that is great. BUT just my view over the last couple years is... No one unless your are friends on discord with the right staff and people will you get a chance at it. But again just my view from way things pan out in Arma.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Usiku on October 07, 2021, 09:14:27 AM
Quote from: Wday on October 07, 2021, 09:06:05 AM
I am glad there is open slots and staff WILL and can fill them in the Sorc and PSi roles. The fun and adventure that can come from that is great. BUT just my view over the last couple years is... No one unless your are friends on discord with the right staff and people will you get a chance at it. But again just my view from way things pan out in Arma.

Player slots for sorcs and psis are filled on a first come first serve basis when there are slots open and people apply with appropriate concepts. There is absolutely nothing that being 'friends' with anyone can do to improve your chances at this. That isn't how it works.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on October 07, 2021, 09:25:38 AM
I find it silly staff were using player slots to begin with and can't understand how that system worked really.

Do we really have so few karma 3 players apping in sorcerers that there is a spot open almost always for a staffer to make a character, properly level them up, and not be pissed when someone goes 'Hey, me want sorcerer' *Kicks staffer out of the slot*

Though I wouldn't doubt it, you need 3 karma + a spec app (And we don't have many of those).

Pessimist in me assumes that if a staffer was in a sorcerer spot and didn't want to lose it anyone apping sorcerer in would get arbitrary and confusing declines to their applications, but this is the bad side of my brain and I have nothing to base it on.
Obviously this makes it true. How dare you! (This is a joke, please give me a quiet golf clap)

I do want a personal email from the staffer in question when I kill their sorcerer character's letting me know how cool I am though. Make it an automatic thing for ease of use.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on October 07, 2021, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 07, 2021, 09:25:38 AM
I do want a personal email from the staffer in question when I kill their sorcerer character's letting me know how cool I am though. Make it an automatic thing for ease of use.
^big this

Also, when a staffer uses the staff sorcpsi slot does it consume one of their specapp slots? Due to the scarcity of specapp slots players on specapp characters often play a lot more cautiously and it would be very interesting if there was a lot more shorter lived sorcs/psis that could "afford" to play more fast and loose because there isn't such a heavy cost of creating such a character.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 07, 2021, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: Lotion on October 07, 2021, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on October 07, 2021, 09:25:38 AM
I do want a personal email from the staffer in question when I kill their sorcerer character's letting me know how cool I am though. Make it an automatic thing for ease of use.
^big this

Also, when a staffer uses the staff sorcpsi slot does it consume one of their specapp slots? Due to the scarcity of specapp slots players on specapp characters often play a lot more cautiously and it would be very interesting if there was a lot more shorter lived sorcs/psis that could "afford" to play more fast and loose because there isn't such a heavy cost of creating such a character.

In truth. Fortunately, or unfortunately. The way the sorc/psies are (or used to be?) they will almost always start cautiously and slow. The skills/spells require an absolutely immense amount of careful, dangerous grind.  Hasan the beloved sorcerer of reknown have spent a lot of quiet days casting spellz in a cave before going heavy on interaction.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on October 07, 2021, 03:26:08 PM
Quote
-Hopefully addressed some of the issues around storage rooms and how their definition of full can change while
  sorting items.

This seems like it reduced the capacity of save rooms by quite a bit (both apartments and other save rooms). Was that intentional?

Edit: Seems to be fixed!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on October 07, 2021, 05:15:22 PM
In retrospect subs are good about that. Before with full sorcs and psies your first few months are like dancing on a blade. Anything can kill you. A vestric can kill you. Taking time not manifesting is fun, but risky. It forces you to unlock your powered quickly to increase survivability and utility. While now with sorcs/psies as subs, you can take your time developing your scary skills. Make each branch a Chara development event.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on November 07, 2021, 10:44:20 AM
>eat cake all

...Interesting...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kenchi on November 07, 2021, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 07, 2021, 10:44:20 AM
>eat cake all

...Interesting...

Finally!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on November 07, 2021, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Kenchi on November 07, 2021, 11:15:17 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 07, 2021, 10:44:20 AM
>eat cake all

...Interesting...

Finally!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on November 12, 2021, 10:52:22 AM
Aromit has been making sim desert changes lately but hasn't been posting them on release notes. There is no single place where a player can view changes made to the game.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dan on November 12, 2021, 10:53:55 AM
Quote from: Lotion on November 12, 2021, 10:52:22 AM
Aromit has been making sim desert changes lately but hasn't been posting them on release notes. There is no single place where a player can view changes made to the game.

I may be wrong here - but I think release notes only gets updated when the changes are pushed to the live server.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on November 12, 2021, 10:58:30 AM
Quote from: Lotion on November 12, 2021, 10:52:22 AM
Aromit has been making sim desert changes lately but hasn't been posting them on release notes. There is no single place where a player can view changes made to the game.

He did say that he'd be putting them up, at the very least, in the discord announcements.  I imagine there he's putting in the 'subtask completions', and there will be a full announcement once it's in a state he feels good about.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dar on November 12, 2021, 12:10:11 PM
By the time he'll be happy about it, the simDesert will cover both Allanak and Tuluk.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on November 14, 2021, 08:27:17 PM
I love how 'eat all' doesn't have the spam. Well thought out!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Taahir on November 15, 2021, 11:27:15 AM
Quote from: Kialae on May 26, 2021, 12:45:52 AM
I've noticed that since the recent release notes (since when they revamped crafting) my communication code's gone crazy with the colors. Whereas before it would show the whole output as my 'say' color, for example, now it only does the top line (the emote + language part), and the second line (the actual sentences you say) is basic grey. Is this being addressed? It's lowkey causing me a stress and don't know why.

This happened when the code that allowed you to exempt something from language code was changed from caps to '<' and '>'. It also broke fat and cursive formatting for the receiving PCs.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on December 13, 2021, 09:28:15 AM
Thank goodness for the update to the hands of wind spell.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on December 13, 2021, 11:15:55 AM
I remember one time I got hands of winded out of red storm and I had enough time to decide if I should say fuck it and type quit as I was at the gate. It felt really variable speed like how falling down a cliff is
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: wizturbo on December 13, 2021, 04:12:08 PM
Haven't been able to play for a while now, but wanted to call out that I'm very pleased to see the direction the game is taking.  Kudos to staff for doing the right stuff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on December 13, 2021, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on December 13, 2021, 04:12:08 PM
Haven't been able to play for a while now, but wanted to call out that I'm very pleased to see the direction the game is taking.  Kudos to staff for doing the right stuff!

You beat me to the kudos.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on December 26, 2021, 09:42:26 PM
Hestia I hope to god those image choices were a troll for the RPt post because my body physically aches

ALSO:

New Guild/Subguild for the super secret not-nordic secret tribe?

Hypothesis?

Ideas?

I have no idea what it would be.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on December 26, 2021, 10:48:18 PM
Something that could deal with anti-magik? Witch hunters?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on December 27, 2021, 06:08:04 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on December 26, 2021, 09:42:26 PM
New Guild/Subguild for the super secret not-nordic secret tribe?
I hope not.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on December 27, 2021, 06:35:28 AM
Quote from: Barsook on December 26, 2021, 10:48:18 PM
Something that could deal with anti-magik? Witch hunters?
Maybe they're just a tribe that doesn't have magickers. I've written a tribe of only mundanes because I didn't want the centralizing nature of magick rp to overshadow the important mundane theme of the tribe.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on December 27, 2021, 08:32:53 AM
They could also just kill them
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Saiseiki on December 28, 2021, 01:42:44 PM
Not exactly "release notes", but I think what Halaster has cooking up vis-a-vis the new tribe is amazing.  Exactly the kind of collaborative storytelling we can use:  crowd-source work, generate buy-in, and expand rather than contract.  Yes!

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57532.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57532.0.html)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on December 28, 2021, 05:22:32 PM
Looking awesome!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Veselka on December 28, 2021, 05:57:05 PM
Quote from: Saiseiki on December 28, 2021, 01:42:44 PM
Not exactly "release notes", but I think what Halaster has cooking up vis-a-vis the new tribe is amazing.  Exactly the kind of collaborative storytelling we can use:  crowd-source work, generate buy-in, and expand rather than contract.  Yes!

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57532.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57532.0.html)

1000%
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on December 28, 2021, 05:58:41 PM
FOR SURE.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on December 28, 2021, 06:09:43 PM
Halaster really waiting for like, the last real day of applications to post as much as he wants on the interest check.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on January 02, 2022, 06:18:45 PM
We are slowly but surely moving to a system where we can actually tell how to make an item without having to know from 13 years ago I need a specifically dyed piece of temboeye to do such.

Everything in the most recent release notes is pretty good
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on January 02, 2022, 09:12:38 PM
I like how the analyze looks now
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Esadal on January 03, 2022, 05:50:57 PM
The new analyze is amazing. Absolutely in love with it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on March 06, 2022, 02:10:47 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1073872.html#msg1073872
- now when you hide you will unhitch your mounts

So I got two thoughts here:

(1) Yay, thank you, this is how it always should have been. And IMO we should get rid of any remaining cases where hitch allows the rider/leader to be not in the same room with the animal. (Can you still enter a tent while keeping your mount unbreakably hitched? Not sure.)

(2) It's a big nerf to human stalkers. (I'm assuming that hitch will break hide, so there's no longer any reasonable way to lead a mount while hidden.) I say "stalkers" because they're much less able to fight their way past hostile amimals than the heavier combat classes. Sneak-with-mount opened up a lot of territory that you couldn't fight through, with the mount giving your weak-ass Willowy, Mage-Haired Human some carrying capacity and an emergency stamina pool. Again, the change is probably as it should be--but it's a big capability change.

And three tangentially-related ideas:

(A) Why would you sneak+hide with a hitched mount? So you can sneak past monsters. But why don't monsters want to eat your mount? ...Yeah, most of them probably should. (Probably some should prefer you and some should prefer your mount, but for game reasons nearly all of them should be aggro to a mount apparently wandering around by itself.) (This matters today even with the change to hitch, 'cause invisibility.)

(B) Unhitched mounts should wander. Fully-rested, unhitched mounts should stand up (so they can wander).

(C) Be nice if we could, like, hitch mounts to an object to prevent wandering and make theft a little more interactive.
- hitch inix tree - You tie up your northie-ass mount at a northie-ass agafari tree.
- hitch beetle deposit - Kid, there's no way to tie your beetle to a piece of rock. Does this look like Tuluk?
- hitch beetle tent - You tie a war beetle's reins to a tent pole. (Unhitching "shakes" the tent, awesome.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Jihelu on March 06, 2022, 06:16:46 PM
(B) Unhitched mounts should wander. Fully-rested, unhitched mounts should stand up (so they can wander).

I hate this idea

(C) Be nice if we could, like, hitch mounts to an object to prevent wandering and make theft a little more interactive.
- hitch inix tree - You tie up your northie-ass mount at a northie-ass agafari tree.
- hitch beetle deposit - Kid, there's no way to tie your beetle to a piece of rock. Does this look like Tuluk?
- hitch beetle tent - You tie a war beetle's reins to a tent pole. (Unhitching "shakes" the tent, awesome.)

Nvm I kinda like it now
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Agent_137 on March 06, 2022, 06:30:33 PM
you don't need code for every little thing. just emote hitches ~beetle on a rock.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on March 13, 2022, 01:51:26 PM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1074168.html#msg1074168
A New Race?

IS IT RAT PEOPLE?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: FamousAmos on March 13, 2022, 01:58:01 PM
Scrab People
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on March 13, 2022, 02:03:40 PM
It would be nice if it's a playable race, not a mob race.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on March 13, 2022, 03:28:35 PM
Quote from: Barsook on March 13, 2022, 02:03:40 PM
It would be nice if it's a playable race, not a mob race.

It's a mob race
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on March 13, 2022, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: Halaster on March 13, 2022, 03:28:35 PM
Quote from: Barsook on March 13, 2022, 02:03:40 PM
It would be nice if it's a playable race, not a mob race.

It's a mob race

That's really cool.

This implies that there is a variety of types to this mob race.

I'm looking forward to all the mantis heads when someone finds this race.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 07, 2022, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,57888.msg1017314/topicseen.html#newWe discovered an error in many places in Allanak and the Labyrinth where all the streets, rooftops, and "in the air" rooms were set as indoors sector, instead of city sector like they should be. This meant that everyone was not losing stamina when they moved around and that weather was having no effect.  This week I fixed that error through Allanak and the Labyrinth.

To help city elves stand out as they should like their desert cousins, stamina loss is being reduced when they are running in the city.  Their base stamina loss in the city will be 1 per room, adjusted for encumbrance.  That means they will actually lose less stamina while running than any other movement speed (walking, sneaking etc).  This will go live on the next code release (this coming Sunday)

So, while recognizing that rooms should have their sector set correctly...I'm not looking forward to getting tired out? walking down the street? which I guess is how it was always supposed to be but you wouldn't have known unless you played in Tuluk?

There's some long-ass streets, man.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 07, 2022, 11:05:14 PM
Hal just clarified in the Discord that stamina loss is 0 for walking (not overencumbered) and the original statement was slightly incorrect.

Sorry, I froked out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on April 07, 2022, 11:07:29 PM
Yeah, to be clear:  Walking in the city (not over encumbered) is 0 loss for everyone.  For city elves running in the city it's a base loss of 1 stamina.  For everyone else it's more.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 08, 2022, 05:10:38 AM
Could have big repercussions for c-elfs. Played a long-lived one and this would have changed my playstyle completely. Less fun, more poison darts etc. As a general rule it's dangerous to go below a certain amount of MV (imo anyway). So on a c-elf I'd be going perma-invis....but then that's going to get nerfed.

If celves had higher movement points I wouldn't see an issue. But despite the fact other races lose more stamina, this is a pretty damn big nerf and likely encourage more stealth meta. Celves are already the weakest race with one stat - agility - going for them. Now they are just weak, faster humans in terms of code and their ability to do things like not run the city without exhausting themselves, which I find jarring OOC given their documentation and their entire pride being built on their ability to run.

I'd say either increase celf movement points to delf levels and keep the stamina drain or ditch it. I see a future with no PC elves in it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: X-D on April 08, 2022, 11:22:27 AM
I do not even play celves, But I think they should at the very least get 0 stam loss on run if at say no problem enc or below.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 08, 2022, 11:25:27 AM
Giving celfs the same kind of endurance/movement point bonus that desert elves get (without the low cost for wilderness running) would be pretty fun.

(1) It would (re-?)enable the runs-everywhere-in-cities paradigm. There's nothing wrong with stamina loss when running (desert elves have it and it doesn't make them underpowered!); the question is how tired you get going from point A to point B.

(2) It would make city elf Byn troopers 100% more viable.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 08, 2022, 11:41:15 AM
From my perspective celves are now entirely obsolete. The easy solution, like said above, is to simply give them the movement points the documentation says they should have in the first place. Otherwise this is going to be the end of elves in arm. imo.

You're going to be perma sneaking. Then we probably get a nerf to stealth as well. So you're basically a really weak human now. May as well roll one of them so you can at least hit stuff and travel without all the race RP restrictions.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on April 08, 2022, 12:18:02 PM
i like the change. Celves can now outrun your round-ear assed guards easilly.

I've seen a LOT of cool celf changes in the last few years, and they actually look fun now. I might Roll A Rinthi Elf one day now.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 08, 2022, 12:22:29 PM
Naw, I wouldn't call this the end of c-elves at all.  But I wouldn't call it good, either.  It's a nice standardization for c-elves to have a lower base cost than other races, but in the end...city elves run in the city either precisely because they -can- (i.e. To get places quickly), in which case they will not generally want to be winded when they get there, or because they are escaping...which is not an endurance race in the city, so having a slightly lower mv cost for it is a negligible bonus, if anything.

Running for 0 cost was something elves did because that's what elves do, run around effortlessly for long distances.  Within the city, 'long distances' is not really that long of a distance.  However, I don't think elves run in the city the majority of the time, so the scenarios this impacts are...few and far between.

It might be time to tackle the city-elf-in-the-desert problem, since you're already in that area.  As suggested above...let them be capable of movement in the desert.  If not to the degree of the desert elves for some reason, then to the degree that they can keep up with a Byn patrol for at least a good portion of a run.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on April 08, 2022, 12:49:25 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on April 08, 2022, 12:22:29 PM
or because they are escaping...which is not an endurance race in the city, so having a slightly lower mv cost for it is a negligible bonus, if anything.


This is Valid. Humans should have their run cost in cities upped by 1, and dwarves upped by 2. Giants have long legs, and should stay the same.

H.elves have half an elf in them, and so should get/keep giant run costs. AKA the same as they are now.

It might need a slight more adjustment then what I listed, but i boiled it down for ease of example. But this would make the c.elf run feel much better. 

Also their base run speed, if it's not already, should be higher then a humans (maybe the same as a giant, because longer legs)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on April 08, 2022, 01:00:17 PM
I'm strongly in favor of the increased stamina for city elves to put them on par with the desert elves. I'd even take it with an increase in movement costs in the desert to keep them from going wild too often.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Shalooonsh on April 08, 2022, 01:31:34 PM
*walks in and sets down a huge stack of receipts*

Hi.

So, ElfGuy here.

For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Elves in Luir's have been just fine.  We see them all the time, both city and desert elves, doing things like trying to bang humans or buying beer or running around doing elf shit. 

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and then dying after they cry out all their water:  Zero.

For the last several months since Tuluk opened, elves in the Warrens have been running about, making money, stealing from people, hugging trees, and doing maliciously sexual things with various types of rock.

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and not being able to hug a tree or kiss a Templar's ass:  Zero.

This isn't a huge issue.  Elves outside of Allanak have been just fine without being able to run the length and breadth of the city 5 times without stopping for ale.  All this means is that elves will have a slight energy expenditure moving through the city -- which, if you think about it, is very realistic.  Yes, they're quicker than everyone, yes, they have longer legs, but they do still have to bob and weave through or around crowds, they have to leap dramatically out of the way of wagons or templars.

They can still outrun anything in a city, especially if you play your elf smart, and use your terrain to the utmost advantage.  There should be zero issue keeping a sharp alive in any city as long as you, the player, are smart about it and don't let yourself get trapped.

D-elves don't get "free" movement out in the wastes... and if they did, I would have nerf'd that shit the moment I found out.  Because "free" movement without the use of magick should be impossible.

This doesn't make the race obsolete, this won't make every elf start to immediately sneak and hide everywhere (if they weren't already doing it) and this won't in any way change the fundamental way that elves are played.  This just means that a code mistake that was made a long, long time ago has finally been fixed.  It means the game, as a whole, is a better and more rewarding experience for everyone involved because things are more realistic.

Thankyou for coming to my ELFTalk.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 08, 2022, 01:49:13 PM
Okay.  That's all mostly strawman.  I don't think anyone was inferring that it was game-breaking aside from one post that claimed it was the end of elves which was...surely hyperbolic.  However, that doesn't make the rest of what was said invalid.  The issue isn't that this is going to cause a death-machine-cycle of elves.  The 'issue' is merely that it's one of the few boons that city-elves often enjoyed, particularly since (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) city elves are largely played in Allanak over where you're talking about the movement costs resulting in very little problems elsewhere.

I'm well aware how quickly elves run in the city.  That's what makes the rest of what I said regarding 'why city elves run' in my post pertinent.  They don't do it because of how fast it is.  They don't escape because of how long they run.  They escape because they sprint really fast in the city. 

It's not a freak out just because something happened that a lot of people had something to say about.  It's not something to get irritated over because we saw that things were being looked at in a specific area and thought it would be a good time to visit something related.  It's not weird that enough people thought of it as an elven trait that removing it feels like something other than a bug fix.

I'm uncertain of whether I'm reading your post with a different tone than what you intended, but you seem irritated that people didn't want that to go away.  Don't be, it's really not a big deal that people are focusing on elves 'running' trait being actually worthwhile in practical use.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 08, 2022, 02:00:49 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 08, 2022, 01:31:34 PM
maliciously sexual things with various types of rock
can you be more specific?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on April 08, 2022, 02:07:05 PM
For the record, the reason I think city elves should have their stamina boosted to be on par with desert elves numerically is so that they can use some combat maneuvers before they run off. City elves get worn down really easily from other stamina-draw code. It's a minor issue, granted, only comes up once in a while, but it is a significant disadvantage they get in comparison to desert elves that isn't really explained by the fact that desert elves are better in the desert.

Though even for people that aren't getting up to shennagins, there's an argument for just making running less time consuming for a group of people that are supposed to be good at it. Raising their stamina means they can do most or all of whatever route they wanted to do without stopping to rest in the middle. (Alleys > Southside > Alleys, or Eastside > Westside (shennanegins) > Eastside, or what have you).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Shalooonsh on April 08, 2022, 02:35:57 PM
Couple things:

As to the strawman - I don't see it.  I'm bringing facts to the table.  Elves outside of Allanak have had movement costs this entire time, and they've been fine with it.  That's not strawman, that's just facts.

As to elven population levels - I have seen far more active elves at once in Tuluk than I have in Allanak since Tuluk opened.  That's literal stats.  I had to pump the breaks on Akai Sjir applicants because there were already 6 active Akai in the north.  Allanaki numbers are far lower for the 'rinth and southside. 

Speed vs. Distance - this backs up both of our points.  It isn't the distance.  But the complaint seems to be mostly about the fact that the movement isn't "free" anymore.  If I'm misreading this, then that's on me, but that seems to be the crux of the disappointment.

Sorry that it seems like something other than a bug fix - but that's simply what it is.  It's not us nerfing elves.  It is us making the world act like it should.  The rooms were built incorrectly, we corrected it... that had an impact on the people who most often used those rooms.  We are looking at if things need balancing on both sides.

I will admit some irritation.  Part of that irritation is self focused - I have played several c-elves and I have never honestly even noticed that I didn't lose stamina in city.  Part of it is focused on the negativity.  I do understand that this is a change to how elves will be played... that's okay.  Things change.  Often we change them for the better.  Growth can be difficult.  The game is ever evolving, often times due to feedback from players.

As for the suggestion about elves getting a boost to stamina:  I'm honestly all for it.  We are in discussions about that. 

To explain the difference in d-elf and c-elf desert movement:

City Elves grow up their whole lives running and sneaking to survive in the city.  This means taking short alleys, dodging around or through crowds, but by and large it means moving over very flat surfaces and focusing on the problems that are in front of and around you to survive.  It makes them natural sprinters.  High speed, high yield, short distance.

Desert Elves grow up their whole lives on hard terrain.  The tablelands may all be N,E,W,S but the realism of the terrain is that there are boulders, broken mesas, gorges, rises and falls all over the place.  It is a harder terrain to survive on, and there's a much diminished protection from the sun.  City elves can find shade all over the place, but desert elves can not.  This means that they're much more hard baked than city elves, and this is reflected by that higher endurance.  Additionally, they are distance runners, not sprinters, because that is how they survive.  They have to run out, kill things, and haul the goods back home whereas a city elf can drop by a restaurant for an ale and a burger if they want.  Still high speed (but not as fast), long pace, long distance.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 08, 2022, 02:59:16 PM
QuoteAs to the strawman - I don't see it.  I'm bringing facts to the table.  Elves outside of Allanak have had movement costs this entire time, and they've been fine with it.  That's not strawman, that's just facts.

Well.  There can be facts in strawmen.  Strawmen are arguments made to fight arguments that aren't being made.  So telling me how few elves die due to being exhausted in the city when I'm not talking about it causing death has little to do with anything, factual or not.

QuoteAs to elven population levels - I have seen far more active elves at once in Tuluk than I have in Allanak since Tuluk opened.  That's literal stats.  I had to pump the breaks on Akai Sjir applicants because there were already 6 active Akai in the north.  Allanaki numbers are far lower for the 'rinth and southside.

Makes sense on a short-term scale, really wouldn't expect any different.  A bunch of people being able to go back to a formerly closed down place?  Do the same stats over a long period of time, excluding the time spent in-between when there was only one option.  Likewise exclude the time where there was no clan in one location but there was in the other.
I could be wrong, but I'd be very comfortable with gambling.  Stats are a funny thing with how you collect data and apply it.

QuoteSorry that it seems like something other than a bug fix - but that's simply what it is.  It's not us nerfing elves.  It is us making the world act like it should.  The rooms were built incorrectly, we corrected it... that had an impact on the people who most often used those rooms.  We are looking at if things need balancing on both sides.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know it's a bug fix.  Unfortunately, it also means that something that was previously a feature for many is now gone.  Of course there will be some things to say about it, that's the nature of the thing.  Now the discussion isn't oriented on a 'nerf', but rather 'world acting like it should'.  It's not saying don't fix the bug, it's saying the behavior the bug fixes leaves something behind that was previously not something people thought needed fixing, it seems.  At least by the vocalization, there's probably a majority of players who simply have no horse in that race (zing!  Race!  Get it?!).  Glad it brought up discussion for you guys though, regardless of what you guys do or don't do as a result!

QuoteI will admit some irritation.  Part of that irritation is self focused - I have played several c-elves and I have never honestly even noticed that I didn't lose stamina in city.  Part of it is focused on the negativity.  I do understand that this is a change to how elves will be played... that's okay.  Things change.  Often we change them for the better.  Growth can be difficult.  The game is ever evolving, often times due to feedback from players.

No need for irritation, man.  I know the tone gets mixed up, but the complaining is often mixed up with the feedback, ideas, and constructive criticism, and vice versa; sometimes the ideas, feedback, and criticisms get mixed up with just being complaints.  They're adjacent to each other, and unfortunately tone of text is often different than tone we'd have in a conversation.

I -did- try to convey that I don't think this is actually that big of a deal.  It just changes something, and is in the vicinity of other things that are tangentially related that would be really cool to put in there.  If it affects anyone more than anyone else, it's the non-stealthy elves that you really just don't see -too- much of, but even then...

I apologize if any of this comes, or came, across as me doing anything other than jumping at the opportunity to get more bones tossed to elvenkind.  I shall always fight for the downtrodden!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 08, 2022, 03:15:46 PM
So, city elves would previously not run for zero cost everywhere in cities, because some of the rooms were rsector city instead of inside.  So it was fairly inconsistent. 

On the other hand, this will affect non-elves.  Ever be at very heavy encumbrance and notice that you can walk down Caravan Road without draining stamina, but if you went off down into certain streets in Commoner's Quarter or travel Templar's Way suddenly you are loosing stamina?  Now that those roads are rsector city, you will loose stamina everywhere for that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 08, 2022, 03:18:58 PM
On a non-elf note, I -did- notice that the 'rinth sometimes had a thing where sandstorms wouldn't affect the alleys, but darkness still did.  Which seems weird.  Is there going to be all sorts of differences in behavior based around that?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on April 08, 2022, 03:55:26 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on April 08, 2022, 03:18:58 PM
On a non-elf note, I -did- notice that the 'rinth sometimes had a thing where sandstorms wouldn't affect the alleys, but darkness still did.  Which seems weird.  Is there going to be all sorts of differences in behavior based around that?

Yeah, I modified the weather in the Labyrinth so it can't get quite as bad when storms do happen as the rest of the city, to reflect the more tightly-packed buildings and that you're mostly running around in alleyways.  Before, because all the streets were sector inside, they got no weather affects.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on April 08, 2022, 04:08:44 PM
Yeah, this is a nerf to an already weak race. A warranted nerf, maybe - rooms being flagged wrong shouldn't be a thing. But a nerf it is, and it's a little sad.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on April 08, 2022, 04:55:45 PM
Ok, based on community feedback, we've added 30 stamina to city elves.  It should be effective immediately.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on April 08, 2022, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: Halaster on April 08, 2022, 04:55:45 PM
Ok, based on community feedback, we've added 30 stamina to city elves.  It should be effective immediately.

That's really solid. But people are going to sleep on how significant this is. This should make it so a C. elf with a decent end roll can make a trip from Allanak to Luirs with just one stop in the middle.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 08, 2022, 05:48:34 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 08, 2022, 01:31:34 PM
*walks in and sets down a huge stack of receipts*

Hi.

So, ElfGuy here.

For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Elves in Luir's have been just fine.  We see them all the time, both city and desert elves, doing things like trying to bang humans or buying beer or running around doing elf shit. 

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and then dying after they cry out all their water:  Zero.

For the last several months since Tuluk opened, elves in the Warrens have been running about, making money, stealing from people, hugging trees, and doing maliciously sexual things with various types of rock.

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and not being able to hug a tree or kiss a Templar's ass:  Zero.

This isn't a huge issue.  Elves outside of Allanak have been just fine without being able to run the length and breadth of the city 5 times without stopping for ale.  All this means is that elves will have a slight energy expenditure moving through the city -- which, if you think about it, is very realistic.  Yes, they're quicker than everyone, yes, they have longer legs, but they do still have to bob and weave through or around crowds, they have to leap dramatically out of the way of wagons or templars.

They can still outrun anything in a city, especially if you play your elf smart, and use your terrain to the utmost advantage.  There should be zero issue keeping a sharp alive in any city as long as you, the player, are smart about it and don't let yourself get trapped.

D-elves don't get "free" movement out in the wastes... and if they did, I would have nerf'd that shit the moment I found out.  Because "free" movement without the use of magick should be impossible.

This doesn't make the race obsolete, this won't make every elf start to immediately sneak and hide everywhere (if they weren't already doing it) and this won't in any way change the fundamental way that elves are played.  This just means that a code mistake that was made a long, long time ago has finally been fixed.  It means the game, as a whole, is a better and more rewarding experience for everyone involved because things are more realistic.

Thankyou for coming to my ELFTalk.

You can't just conflate fundamentally different institutions and act like everything is the same everywhere. Allanak has specific dynamics. Everyone knows this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 08, 2022, 06:39:53 PM
Also want to clarify I think the stamina change fixes the issue and is a good change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 08, 2022, 08:35:13 PM
Quote from: Void on April 08, 2022, 06:39:53 PM
Also want to clarify I think the stamina change fixes the issue and is a good change.

+1. All of these have been good changes and the stamina boost balances it right.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 09, 2022, 02:00:43 AM
Quote from: Fredd on April 08, 2022, 12:18:02 PM
i like the change. Celves can now outrun your round-ear assed guards easilly.

I've seen a LOT of cool celf changes in the last few years, and they actually look fun now. I might Roll A Rinthi Elf one day now.

The problem here is it isn't PC guards that typically handle criminals. You're dealing with a city of guards who will insta-gank you. There probably won't actually be any chases like you just said as it is far more economic now to sneak/hide/climb away. Gone are the days Templars would chase Gizhat around Nak. lol
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Yelinak on April 09, 2022, 03:32:16 AM
I don't get it. Running in the city always cost stamina on my city elves. What am I missing?

And if it costs 1 stamina per room, you can run the entire way across Allanak and back again in one go.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 09, 2022, 04:05:29 AM
Previously there were a lot of rooms where celves could run with no stamina loss and nobody could keep up. Now they will have less stamina loss and higher base stamina so nobody can keep up, but a group could now more easily tire a single elf and potentially corner.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Suhuy on April 09, 2022, 06:03:28 AM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 08, 2022, 01:31:34 PM
For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Not true. Half of Luir's had zero stamina drain for c-elves when running. For the other half, I would just walk it or suffer the stamina loss.

Time will tell if the update on Sunday, combined with the small boost c-elves just got, changes the overall culture of how (and even if!) c-elves are played. Until then we can only speculate. But if the change is significant, I don't see that as a plus for the game.

People have been saying this game is in decline since the 1990s. But it hasn't been in serious decline like it is now. These days, the game is clearly hemorrhaging, bad! And I think we should all be extraordinarily cautious about removing one of the mainstays of the MUD. Is it realistic to run endlessly without ever tiring? No, but playability must always trump realism. Making spice age may be realistic, but it certainly does not encourage spice consumption/RP. And tireless running in the city was just one of those things that everyone accepted as a sort of trade off for a super, super weak race that often times can't even etwo a shortsword (speaking of things unrealistic).

What I'd like to see is c-elves running as a general rule, regardless of what city they are in. It's what they do, it's what separates them from other races, it's what's stressed time and time again in the documentation. Elves run. That's their thing. Maybe you should set NPC c-elves to run even, any time they randomly move in some direction, to better get the point across that elves are runners. If c-elves can do this fairly reliably and regularly, then the change is no big deal. If c-elves just walk everywhere from now on, this change is without a doubt a bad one.

Just my two cents. Disagree and discombobulate at your leisure.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Armaddict on April 09, 2022, 07:53:12 AM
QuoteJust my two cents. Disagree and discombobulate at your leisure.

I don't disagree that it may have an impact.  I do disagree that it will be a monstrous impact.  And I do disagree that this is a definitive part of why people would leave.  It was a neat feature, and something cool to talk about with people if they were asking 'why play an elf' (City run is one of those hidden gems of a boon), but they maintain the big part of it, which is the sprint speed, and they have more endurance.  Just not the cool factor of being able to always-run around the city without end.

There were always a few rooms that cost stamina, but the alleys in particular, it was noticeable that was where elves shined.  I like the +30 stamina.  I'm not certain it will allow elves to take larger part in Byn operations without being a huge liability, which is kind of what I was hoping we could get around to while we were on the topic.

Just keep in mind...this was not an elf-centric thing, this was a room-coding thing.  There were other issues that caused this, not a direct thing to elves.  This wasn't a 'fix this, elves shouldn't do this', it was a myriad of other behaviors in rooms that weren't working correctly.  This is a side effect.  I'd like to see some ideas that are not too code-heavy to move elven culture into a more present part of the game (i.e. Most people will be around it more often), if the +30 stamina just isn't doing it for you.

I know I'm not super active in the game, but the draw of elves for me was never the running.  It was the psychology and social role, at least when it was played close to the way I envisioned it.  I don't think this should be taken as removal of a super big part of elven culture, or as a serious drawback.  Just as an opportunity to examine the way the new things work, and how we can work with it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on April 09, 2022, 12:09:52 PM
Quote from: Suhuy on April 09, 2022, 06:03:28 AM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 08, 2022, 01:31:34 PM
For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Not true. Half of Luir's had zero stamina drain for c-elves when running. For the other half, I would just walk it or suffer the stamina loss.

Time will tell if the update on Sunday, combined with the small boost c-elves just got, changes the overall culture of how (and even if!) c-elves are played. Until then we can only speculate. But if the change is significant, I don't see that as a plus for the game.

People have been saying this game is in decline since the 1990s. But it hasn't been in serious decline like it is now. These days, the game is clearly hemorrhaging, bad! And I think we should all be extraordinarily cautious about removing one of the mainstays of the MUD. Is it realistic to run endlessly without ever tiring? No, but playability must always trump realism. Making spice age may be realistic, but it certainly does not encourage spice consumption/RP. And tireless running in the city was just one of those things that everyone accepted as a sort of trade off for a super, super weak race that often times can't even etwo a shortsword (speaking of things unrealistic).

What I'd like to see is c-elves running as a general rule, regardless of what city they are in. It's what they do, it's what separates them from other races, it's what's stressed time and time again in the documentation. Elves run. That's their thing. Maybe you should set NPC c-elves to run even, any time they randomly move in some direction, to better get the point across that elves are runners. If c-elves can do this fairly reliably and regularly, then the change is no big deal. If c-elves just walk everywhere from now on, this change is without a doubt a bad one.

Just my two cents. Disagree and discombobulate at your leisure.

if? I think once people calm down about the loss of their free movement in cities they will realize how much of a buff  C.elves got here.

Want to play an elf smuggler? It's now much easier.
Want to be the elf in the Byn? It's now much less of an inconvenience for everyone, including yourself.

"But 30 stamina is only like 6 rooms of movement"

Yes, but that's 1/7th the trip to Luirs, from Allanak. (and that math ignores the stretch that's road btw)
that 6 rooms of movement makes it so an elf with average stamina can walk to Luirs from Allanak with one rest stop.

For the 12 years I have been playing this game, people have been begging for it to be made easier for c.elves to travel. And staff have been 100% against it.

Well now it's finally happened. And ya'll are worried about being a little sweaty running around the rinth.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Suhuy on April 09, 2022, 12:52:41 PM
I don't believe the purpose of the change was to make it easier for city elves to travel outside the city. Wasn't it to allow them to still run effectively inside the city, like they've always done? If I want an elf that has more ability to travel the desert, I'll play a desert elf.

As I've said, whether it's a helpful change or a hindrance remains to be seen. We'll know soon enough. If city elves can still run reliably and regularly in a city, then there's nothing more to be said. If the future of city elves is that they just walk everywhere from now on, then the change is a bad one.

And whether the running aspect of elves is what appeals to you about the race or not, it is in fact a major part of the elven culture/mindset. So much so that an entire taboo around riding animals and entering wagons exists. Because elves run. That's their thing. You guys seem to think I'm totally against this change. I'm not. At least not yet. I'm fairly skeptical about it, but again: we'll  see. My only concern at all is for city elves to still be able to run in the city. It doesn't have to be an infinite run but it also shouldn't  be so inconvenient that players just walk instead. Beyond that, I really don't care.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on April 09, 2022, 01:12:18 PM
I was looking at distances in Allanak yesterday (on my map, silly). All approximate:

25 rooms from the southwest corner of the Commoners' Quarter to Meleth's Circle.
30 rooms from the Gaj to Hathor's.
35 from the Gaj to the Byn compound.
15 from Merchant's Cross to the Kadian compound.
40 from the west gate to the east gate.
20 from the rinth entrance to the Folley or the Mantis.

A city elf with, say, 130-170 movement points should now be able to run all the way across the city 3-4 times before complete exhaustion. For skulduggery/escape purposes, he doesn't want to fall below, say, 40 points (to be sure of managing a run from a crime scene to a safe-ish resting spot), but that leaves room for 3+ 30-room runs without resting.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 09, 2022, 03:28:27 PM
I can almost guarantee no celves will be running the city even with a few more stamina. You can't risk getting tired in case a fight happens, since fights use up a fair bit of stamina due to their skillset. Next stealth will get nerfed when all we have are invisible miscreants. lol

And the above posts shows roughly a hundred rooms. Celves should have delf level stamina given the size of cities or running isn't going to be a thing for elves.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Narf on April 09, 2022, 04:00:00 PM
Quote from: Void on April 09, 2022, 03:28:27 PM

And the above posts shows roughly a hundred rooms. Celves should have delf level stamina given the size of cities or running isn't going to be a thing for elves.

The above post shows routes. You can't combine them, they overlap. The longest route is 40 rooms and takes you from one side of the city to the other. 40 stamina to run all the way across the city is perfectly reasonable. In fact, if you subtract their 30 free stamina, that's  actually less than it used to cost them (some of the old rooms still costed stamina to traverse).
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Void on April 10, 2022, 08:30:46 AM
My bad. Misread. That isn't as crippling but I still don't think this was a needed change. The problem raised is stealth...not the supposed innate ability for elves to run a lot.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Yelinak on April 10, 2022, 10:07:54 AM
It seems to me that stealth is unaffected. Walking (or sneaking) costs no movement in cities.

Honestly, this adjustment doesn't seem like it would change anything for real. City elves running at 1 stamina per room shouldn't realistically end up in a situation where they just can't go on and are killed by the lynch mob. It doesn't sound like a thing that really happens. In reality, who runs around the city two or three times and still needs more gas?

Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on April 10, 2022, 10:35:10 AM
Quote from: Yelinak on April 10, 2022, 10:07:54 AM
It seems to me that stealth is unaffected. Walking (or sneaking) costs no movement in cities.

Honestly, this adjustment doesn't seem like it would change anything for real. City elves running at 1 stamina per room shouldn't realistically end up in a situation where they just can't go on and are killed by the lynch mob. It doesn't sound like a thing that really happens. In reality, who runs around the city two or three times and still needs more gas?

Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

Doesn't effect stealth at all. Stealth, contrary to popular belief, does not have a difficulty increase based on where you sneak. (there are difficulties for hide in narrow hallways, but not sneak) So this shouldn't effect stealth, or it will be a "slight" buff if a room or two was labled as a hallway, and was outdoors.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 10, 2022, 03:34:10 PM
Quote from: Yelinak on April 10, 2022, 10:07:54 AM
Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

That isn't a side-effect, that was the intended change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 10, 2022, 04:27:05 PM
Was it intentional that Elves can move faster than Half giants?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Dan on April 10, 2022, 04:31:08 PM
Quote from: Krath on April 10, 2022, 04:27:05 PM
Was it intentional that Elves can move faster than Half giants?

Not sure if I understand - but this has always been the case.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on April 10, 2022, 04:35:31 PM
Thank you Dan, I had just noticed this and was not sure if part of the "Coding" change made to celves was this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 10, 2022, 05:44:25 PM
YES THANK YOU FOR FIXING THE LANGUAGE BUG THAT WAS SO ANNOYING
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Yelinak on April 13, 2022, 05:14:13 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 10, 2022, 03:34:10 PM
Quote from: Yelinak on April 10, 2022, 10:07:54 AM
Although as a side-effect of this change, we now have sandstorms inside the city, which is a little awkward.

That isn't a side-effect, that was the intended change.

There has been a near-permanent sandstorm inside Allanak since this change. It's a little dumb.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: FamousAmos on April 13, 2022, 07:40:54 PM
The walls of Allanak shouldn't cause such a dense sand storm within as, in example, Luir's.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on April 13, 2022, 08:55:37 PM
Quote from: FamousAmos on April 13, 2022, 07:40:54 PM
The walls of Allanak shouldn't cause such a dense sand storm within as, in example, Luir's.

I disagree. But for playability sake, maybe staff should adjust how strong the storms get inside the walls, and how often.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on April 14, 2022, 06:02:26 AM
Quote from: Fredd on April 13, 2022, 08:55:37 PM
Quote from: FamousAmos on April 13, 2022, 07:40:54 PM
The walls of Allanak shouldn't cause such a dense sand storm within as, in example, Luir's.

I disagree. But for playability sake, maybe staff should adjust how strong the storms get inside the walls, and how often.

just for argument sake, the weather (just) outside the walls and the weather within has been on par.  So at least there's that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on May 02, 2022, 03:15:43 AM
QuoteFollowing changes are taking place:

Bartenders have been revamped.  Here and there you'll see price changes, and the Cenyri bartender got a facelift.  Menu options might be different in a couple places, and if you're used to ordering "the usual" then you will want to check price before you do.

Much of this is due to the brilliant work of Nessalin in revamping the drink system.  Basic/necessary liquids like water and ale should be pretty much priced at the same level if not a bit less in public taverns.

And this is where the news gets bad for you high falutin snobs:

Specialty liquors such as wines and rare whiskeys are now priced accordingly.  If you think they're too expensive, you probably need to get more money.  This should hopefully help put forth the idea that a nice bottle of wine is actually a really good gift, like it should be.

Additionally, taste messages were updated for a load of northern liquors which did not have them, including but not limited to:

jaluar wine
japuaar wine
petoch wine
reynolte dry
mead
dark ale

I dislike all of these changes. Just seems more incentive to grind for coin and addressing a non-existent issue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on May 03, 2022, 04:11:11 PM
I agree with BadSkeelz.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 03, 2022, 04:19:34 PM
Except there actually was an issue, in that the value of liquids had nothing to do with the liquid, just the container it was in.  Which isn't a problem if you only sell the containers full of the liquid, but is a problem when merchants are buying back empty containers (with the same exact base cost values they had when they were getting sold full).

It may not have been an issue that impacted you much, but it was an issue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 03, 2022, 05:28:30 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on May 03, 2022, 04:19:34 PM
Except there actually was an issue, in that the value of liquids had nothing to do with the liquid, just the container it was in.  Which isn't a problem if you only sell the containers full of the liquid, but is a problem when merchants are buying back empty containers (with the same exact base cost values they had when they were getting sold full).

It may not have been an issue that impacted you much, but it was an issue.

Is that part of the change that was done?

Now if I sell different drinks in the same container they will cost different amounts?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on May 03, 2022, 06:29:17 PM
The change was that the liquids themselves now have a cost per unit.  The stuff Shalooonsh was talking about is a result of that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on June 19, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1077471.html#msg1077471
-Quadrupled rate at which kick skill progresses

OH THANK GOD.
- every sparring partner Dakin (the boot-footed half-elf) ever had

Solid and welcome change. I wonder if bash needs the same treatment, or is it doing okay?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on June 19, 2022, 10:45:44 AM
Neat. Could we look at enforcer branching, too? This is gr8 for the raiders among us though
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on June 19, 2022, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 19, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1077471.html#msg1077471
-Quadrupled rate at which kick skill progresses

OH THANK GOD.
- every sparring partner Dakin (the boot-footed half-elf) ever had

Solid and welcome change. I wonder if bash needs the same treatment, or is it doing okay?
Bash raises fine in my experience. I've had Fighters with master skills across the board but with apprentice kick.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on June 19, 2022, 01:17:44 PM
This change puts kick on par with bash.  Bash has its chance increased a year or so ago.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brytta Léofa on July 10, 2022, 11:00:58 AM
Quote from: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1078863.html#msg1078863
-non-humanoids should no longer open/close doors

It's 100% canonical that raptors can open doors though.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2022, 10:28:15 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58528.0.html

Spendable Karma being removed.

I am worried that the game will become mage centric again.  I am worried that the ability for staff to 'notice' that the playerbase has shifted to playing magick subclasses isn't something they can easily track.

Maybe there can be a weekly query that checks the number of active players that have magicker subclasses, and if it goes above a certain threshold they can pause magicker applications until it gets below that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on October 16, 2022, 10:47:47 AM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 10:28:15 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58528.0.html

Spendable Karma being removed.

I am worried that the game will become mage centric again.  I am worried that the ability for staff to 'notice' that the playerbase has shifted to playing magick subclasses isn't something they can easily track.

Maybe there can be a weekly query that checks the number of active players that have magicker subclasses, and if it goes above a certain threshold they can pause magicker applications until it gets below that.

+1

Should we be also worried about the karma locked races also? Or was that never a problem? I'm mainly thinking of muls.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2022, 10:51:33 AM
Quote from: Barsook on October 16, 2022, 10:47:47 AM
Should we be also worried about the karma locked races also? Or was that never a problem? I'm mainly thinking of muls.

No, it has never been an issue with the number of half-giants and muls.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Ammut on October 16, 2022, 05:10:27 PM
There has to be an easy way to parse through all the current alive character files, assuming the game still uses a similar way of storing them that the original Diku/Circle code did.  Even if it was a SQL database I'm sure there is some way to select all that data and send out a report.

With that you could see the numbers of current mages in game and perhaps add a limit during character creation?

I'm not all that concerned with the amount of mages myself, but I never played in an era where there were more than mundane classes (or never noticed it).  I guess what threshold would you consider too many @mansa ?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:11:22 PM
Quote from: Ammut on October 16, 2022, 05:10:27 PM
... what threshold would you consider too many @mansa ?

31% of the playerbase.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Ammut on October 16, 2022, 05:14:19 PM
Oddly enough as I was typing this out I was randomly thinking > 30% of the playerbase could tip things over as well.

That said it may be difficult to even come up with current "active" players so that the 30% number might make a difference.  If someone hasn't played recently or only logs in once a week, it might skew the numbers.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:18:08 PM
Quote from: Ammut on October 16, 2022, 05:14:19 PM
Oddly enough as I was typing this out I was randomly thinking > 30% of the playerbase could tip things over as well.

That said it may be difficult to even come up with current "active" players so that the 30% number might make a difference.  If someone hasn't played recently or only logs in once a week, it might skew the numbers.

If someone doesn't play or log in, they aren't interacting with the playerbase, so I don't think it matters :)
I think a query that checks after players within the last 7 days, and if they are a magicker subclass - to present to the playerbase that "Hey, we're getting pretty high, perhaps you shouldn't make a magicker."

I think we, the players, are mature enough to not make a magicker if we know the gameworld is high in population of magicker subclass.   Being told, "there's too many right now" definitely has a different feel than "You need to wait 50 days" arbitrarily.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on October 16, 2022, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:18:08 PM
I think we, the players, are mature enough to not make a magicker if we know the gameworld is high in population of magicker subclass.

No we're not, and you know it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:48:55 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 16, 2022, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:18:08 PM
I think we, the players, are mature enough to not make a magicker if we know the gameworld is high in population of magicker subclass.

No we're not, and you know it.

I don't think trolling the forums of a game you hate and don't play is a good use of your time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on October 16, 2022, 06:36:14 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:48:55 PM
I don't think trolling the forums of a game you hate and don't play is a good use of your time.

First of all, I certainly don't 'hate' this game.

Second, it's not because I don't spend my entire free time crunching data related to Armageddon that I'm trolling this forum.

I simply think that trusting the playerbase to auto-moderate itself when it comes to magickers will backfire pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on October 16, 2022, 06:43:36 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 10:28:15 AM
I am worried that the game will become mage centric again.  I am worried that the ability for staff to 'notice' that the playerbase has shifted to playing magick subclasses isn't something they can easily track.
It already was beforehand.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: vukovar on October 16, 2022, 06:56:27 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 10:28:15 AM

I am worried that the game will become mage centric again.  I am worried that the ability for staff to 'notice' that the playerbase has shifted to playing magick subclasses isn't something they can easily track.

Maybe there can be a weekly query that checks the number of active players that have magicker subclasses, and if it goes above a certain threshold they can pause magicker applications until it gets below that.

I am also very concerned about this occurring and I hope some kind of system was put into place or will be put into place like you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Nao on October 16, 2022, 07:07:38 PM
This may be a choice between smaller numbers with less magickers, or more players, but a skewed ratio.

I haven't played a gick for a while, but I honestly wouldn't mind that. Let the filthy witches duke it out and kill each other for a while. Give the Sun Legions and desert elves something to hunt that's not an all-powerful sorcerer that will just obliterate them. It has been like magick barely exists in the north ever since Tuluk opened.

I realize that they're not going to go advertising around Tuluk, but there have to be northerners that manifest, sooner or later, and get caught? Where are they?

This makes me want to be the change, roll one up, and get caught within a week - should be fun for everyone involved.

Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Orlau on October 16, 2022, 07:11:09 PM
When all the tribes opened up, it was elfageddon.

For two weeks.

Then things stabilized. I think that's how this'll go the same.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on October 16, 2022, 07:28:20 PM
Seems we all was asking for this and got it and NOW we are worried how many mages and so on is play?  Lets just play our roles we write up and have fun!  Write up your ideas and bring the shit to life and don't worry who is what guild, just play.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on October 16, 2022, 07:34:50 PM
I expect this to help with the general feeling of 'slowness' of the game. There's no need to take it slow and be extra careful for the first few months if you can start over and try again anytime.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Inks on October 16, 2022, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 16, 2022, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:18:08 PM
I think we, the players, are mature enough to not make a magicker if we know the gameworld is high in population of magicker subclass.

No we're not, and you know it.

Like if you cant survive a couple of months in a karma role...it's kinda on you. Now you can just keep rerolling until you get god stats.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: eska on October 17, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Yes I am finally able to make mul mages and run havoc all around.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: zealus on October 17, 2022, 07:24:46 AM
Quote from: Inks on October 16, 2022, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Malken on October 16, 2022, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:18:08 PM
I think we, the players, are mature enough to not make a magicker if we know the gameworld is high in population of magicker subclass.

No we're not, and you know it.

Like if you cant survive a couple of months in a karma role...it's kinda on you. Now you can just keep rerolling until you get god stats.

Playing while taking risks that your PC would take and sometimes putting yourself in danger does not equate not knowing how to play the game, honestly.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aromit on October 17, 2022, 08:57:36 AM
While I worried about the potential of people rolling in consecutive higher karma subguilds/races I realized long ago that I was in favor of removing the restrictions for one reason. I dislike any system that might in any way, for any length of time, convince a player to not login to the game.

Waiting 15 days to make a pc because they need to wait for a point to regen? No, let them play and let them play what they want. That's the better option.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: HazelHomewrecker on October 17, 2022, 09:10:40 AM
I don't trust my fellow players not to abuse this new system, simply because they've proven time and time again in the past that given the opportunity, they absolutely will take advantage of anything and everything.  However, I agree that this change can certainly prove to be for the better, and only time can prove or disprove that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: najdorf on October 17, 2022, 09:29:34 AM
In favor of any change that give more freedom to players. Lat time while waiting for regen I installed another game and played it for 1.5 years, abandoning arm during that period
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 17, 2022, 09:35:30 AM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 05:11:22 PM
Quote from: Ammut on October 16, 2022, 05:10:27 PM
... what threshold would you consider too many @mansa ?

31% of the playerbase.

Surely there's already 10+ magicker/high karma players.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: eska on October 17, 2022, 10:01:35 AM
TBH, I was never in favor of this change, nor the previous change where we reduced 8 points karma to 3 points. Things are going backwards now. I'm hoping to see the previous 8 points karma system soon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Furious George on October 17, 2022, 10:08:01 AM
This year would be #30 for me, if I were choosing to play, and while the timers are a pain, they aren't my issue on playing.  I hope it helps others.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on October 17, 2022, 10:55:39 AM
Quote from: mansa on October 16, 2022, 10:28:15 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58528.0.html

Spendable Karma being removed.

I am worried that the game will become mage centric again.  I am worried that the ability for staff to 'notice' that the playerbase has shifted to playing magick subclasses isn't something they can easily track.

Maybe there can be a weekly query that checks the number of active players that have magicker subclasses, and if it goes above a certain threshold they can pause magicker applications until it gets below that.

The game has always felt pretty magic-centric to me. With poisons now being a little harder to acquire/brew, and less effective than they used to be, I imagine it will become more-so. Not complaining, just is what it is.

However, I don't think karma regeneration will have a significant impact on # of mages in the game. It regenerated fast enough that it never felt very prohibitive, at least to me. If it does, it just means more newbie mages for savvy mundanes to hunt.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Iiyola on October 17, 2022, 12:38:42 PM
Quote from: Aromit on October 17, 2022, 08:57:36 AM
While I worried about the potential of people rolling in consecutive higher karma subguilds/races I realized long ago that I was in favor of removing the restrictions for one reason. I dislike any system that might in any way, for any length of time, convince a player to not login to the game.

Waiting 15 days to make a pc because they need to wait for a point to regen? No, let them play and let them play what they want. That's the better option.
^
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dumbstruck on October 17, 2022, 01:45:05 PM
Quote from: Aromit on October 17, 2022, 08:57:36 AM
I dislike any system that might in any way, for any length of time, convince a player to not login to the game.

Quoted for truth.

People can attempt to shoehorn people into certain roles over other roles by making roles that people enjoy unavailable, but the better alternative is to ask what makes the roles that are being looked over in favor of the favored roles less interesting, less attractive, and less palatable. In some cases, there will be something that can be done to change behavior, in others there won't. But you can't force someone to play what they don't want to play, you can only force them to not play because what they want to play is no longer an option.

This is an opinion I've had for a very long time. I'm glad that for those who have access to karma, it is freely accessible again. Same as I'm glad they reopened Tuluk. :D You can't make people play something they don't want to play. If you want people playing something that isn't maybe being played as much or as often as you want it to be, it might be more effective to ask what that thing is lacking, or what it has that is off putting, and some flexibility on those points might see the numbers fluctuate higher, just my opinion of course.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: wizturbo on October 17, 2022, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: Aromit on October 17, 2022, 08:57:36 AM
While I worried about the potential of people rolling in consecutive higher karma subguilds/races I realized long ago that I was in favor of removing the restrictions for one reason. I dislike any system that might in any way, for any length of time, convince a player to not login to the game.

Waiting 15 days to make a pc because they need to wait for a point to regen? No, let them play and let them play what they want. That's the better option.

This is the right philosophy to have.  If there are too many karma characters in the game, then the game needs to change to adapt to the desires of the playerbase, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Cabooze on October 17, 2022, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 17, 2022, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: Aromit on October 17, 2022, 08:57:36 AM
While I worried about the potential of people rolling in consecutive higher karma subguilds/races I realized long ago that I was in favor of removing the restrictions for one reason. I dislike any system that might in any way, for any length of time, convince a player to not login to the game.

Waiting 15 days to make a pc because they need to wait for a point to regen? No, let them play and let them play what they want. That's the better option.

This is the right philosophy to have.  If there are too many karma characters in the game, then the game needs to change to adapt to the desires of the playerbase, not the other way around.

There could always be incentives introduced to play as a mundane besides not being socially-screwed the moment you're outed?
Perhaps, mundanes, could select one 'trait' that can only be picked at character generation alongside their main/sub guilds.

They could be things such as,

+Pain/Alcohol Tolerance
Magic Resistance
Improved Direction Sense
One extra Master-level skill from a list that staff collectively agree with being acceptable to be given out to most any guild/sub. No Sap/Backstab, etc.
Extra Starting Money/Starting Mount

as well as other things I cba to think of atm
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on October 17, 2022, 04:33:05 PM
I would like those too. Starting mounts would rock.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on October 18, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Like, I dunno... the ability to rise to any rank in nearly any established organization? (So long as that rank doesn't go above like... Sergeant. wahoo.)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Ammut on October 18, 2022, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: eska on October 17, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Yes I am finally able to make mul mages and run havoc all around.

QuoteMul magick-users no longer exist due to careful breeding techniques.
https://armageddon.org/help/view/Muls

Some restrictions still apply.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TragicMagick on October 18, 2022, 01:25:21 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on October 17, 2022, 03:55:44 PM
-snip-

I actually really like the single additional skill. I think that would be such a cool way to round out  character that for some reason can't get that skill due to class-subclass interactions not covering it. I think this could work best if you could pick from a small list of survival/manipulation/crafting skills.

Lacking climb or d-sense is so punishing and a way to put these in a character who wouldn't have them would be awesome. Having scan/hunt on a PC that normally wouldn't have it won't make the OP at all. Having access to a crafting skill you normally wouldn't (excluding poisoning/brewing) also seems like more of a quality of life thing than being OP.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: najdorf on October 18, 2022, 02:33:31 PM
also, full mages will bring more chaos, war and pk to game, which is good. currently, even I know from self experience that players have option to play main guilds and be very good to defend (combat or stealth wise) first, then when they finally manifest and grow strong magically they are not prone to middling assaulters. it is ooc but even I miss the good oldd days when you could figure out if someone was gick cause they cant skin fight or hide :). of course not the excuse to hunt them, but combined with their no choice but to work on spells urge, you could watch spot and murder them for fun. I believe this also gave most magickers fun too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Iiyola on October 18, 2022, 02:44:15 PM
Quote from: Cabooze on October 17, 2022, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on October 17, 2022, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: Aromit on October 17, 2022, 08:57:36 AM
While I worried about the potential of people rolling in consecutive higher karma subguilds/races I realized long ago that I was in favor of removing the restrictions for one reason. I dislike any system that might in any way, for any length of time, convince a player to not login to the game.

Waiting 15 days to make a pc because they need to wait for a point to regen? No, let them play and let them play what they want. That's the better option.

This is the right philosophy to have.  If there are too many karma characters in the game, then the game needs to change to adapt to the desires of the playerbase, not the other way around.

There could always be incentives introduced to play as a mundane besides not being socially-screwed the moment you're outed?
Perhaps, mundanes, could select one 'trait' that can only be picked at character generation alongside their main/sub guilds.

They could be things such as,

+Pain/Alcohol Tolerance
Magic Resistance
Improved Direction Sense
One extra Master-level skill from a list that staff collectively agree with being acceptable to be given out to most any guild/sub. No Sap/Backstab, etc.
Extra Starting Money/Starting Mount

as well as other things I cba to think of atm

Yes please.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: eska on October 19, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Ammut on October 18, 2022, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: eska on October 17, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Yes I am finally able to make mul mages and run havoc all around.

QuoteMul magick-users no longer exist due to careful breeding techniques.
https://armageddon.org/help/view/Muls

Some restrictions still apply.

Dammit! But that won't stop me enjoying just to apply one.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on October 19, 2022, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: eska on October 19, 2022, 02:42:26 PM
Quote from: Ammut on October 18, 2022, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: eska on October 17, 2022, 07:22:20 AM
Yes I am finally able to make mul mages and run havoc all around.

QuoteMul magick-users no longer exist due to careful breeding techniques.
https://armageddon.org/help/view/Muls

Some restrictions still apply.

Dammit! But that won't stop me enjoying just to apply one.

Special App...It would be a special pc....
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on October 26, 2022, 10:37:02 AM
Mutants sounds found and can look bad ass now!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on October 26, 2022, 11:19:20 AM
It would be nice if the mutant stuff was available in the change ldesc room
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: perfecto on October 27, 2022, 09:35:40 PM
Quote from: eska on October 17, 2022, 10:01:35 AM
TBH, I was never in favor of this change, nor the previous change where we reduced 8 points karma to 3 points. Things are going backwards now. I'm hoping to see the previous 8 points karma system soon.

Wowwww I had already completely forgotten about this!  I think I had 4 or 5 tops ever, because I never played nobles or templars or leadership roles due to not having enough time to be active for those playing under those roles lol.  Didn't you need 3 just to play a D.elf?  5 for a giant I think?  7 for Mul and 8 for Psi Sorc!  Only saving grace was that you could spec app 3 times a RL year  for something 1 karma above what you had... then die in 4 hours.. and have to buy yourself a new computer.   Honestly I don't mind the change!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on November 06, 2022, 08:27:00 AM
QuoteScan and Listen now show up in stat while active

Thank you!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on November 06, 2022, 11:00:13 AM
Halaster can you talk specifically to what is being changed with respect to:

- First pass on weapon damage standardization, which is just the underlying code with no DB changes
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on November 06, 2022, 11:10:13 AM
Quote from: Krath on November 06, 2022, 11:00:13 AM
Halaster can you talk specifically to what is being changed with respect to:

- First pass on weapon damage standardization, which is just the underlying code with no DB changes

Yeah, I'll be making a more detailed post about it soon.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on December 11, 2022, 10:21:29 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1084580.html#msg1084580

QuoteDecember 11, 2022 (Sunday)

Oleupata
- While affected by mul rage, characters cannot use the commands eat, drink, taste, sip, smoke, or sniff

Halaster
- NPC's will no longer regenerate health while affected by bloodburn
- More work on new weapon project
- New material type for magick weapons
- Fixed spell wearoff room message for nilazi spell
- Analyzing an object will show you all the recipes you know (skill, clan membership) that it will appear in, even if it's not the only object.  Be warned, it could be spammy!


omg the analyze change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: flurry on December 11, 2022, 10:23:55 AM
Huge game changer for crafters. Also for forgotten recipes with obscure ingredients. Very cool.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on December 11, 2022, 10:48:01 AM
I <3 the change too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Filthy_Grey_Rat on December 11, 2022, 10:53:48 AM
(https://y.yarn.co/94ba3d67-f38b-48ba-b44e-6be90ed9087d_text.gif)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on December 11, 2022, 11:10:19 AM
For people without a character, it now looks like this:

analyze <item1>
<item1> cannot be crafted.

This could be used to make '<FINISHED PRODUCT ITEM 1>' with '<skill>' and combined with...
  <item2>
This could be used to make '<FINISHED PRODUCT ITEM 2>' with '<skill>' and combined with...
  <item2>
  <item3>
  <item4>
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: flurry on December 11, 2022, 11:46:08 AM
Oh, it actually shows the recipe? That's even better.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 11, 2022, 11:49:29 AM
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/ARNQkcBuUznMd05XzN/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47ayvgxet1oflknkkia1r9kziib8ajzaohfom8hig6&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
I hope this makes more folks be crafty types.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 11, 2022, 11:51:08 AM
Quote- Analyzing an object will show you all the recipes you know (skill, clan membership) that it will appear in, even if it's not the only object.  Be warned, it could be spammy!


YES YES YES YES YES!!!!  I
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 11, 2022, 11:56:35 AM
Cooking alone is blowing my mind...

I bet there are recipes that are about to be created in game, that haven't been created in YEARS or DECADES.

Not to mention, that clanned crafters are going to discover long lost recipes for things.  Maybe it's stuff they always ordered because they didn't know how to make it.

This is going to open a golden age of "new" shit for people to wear/eat/use in the game.

It has farther reaching benefits too, think of the crafter who knows they need a certain hide, or a certain body part, hunters can be dispatched searching for it, plots around hunting begin that aren't just "Go kill this big bad monster for bragging rights."

I'm rarely optimistic, but I think this will help us keep more players in the game, the ones who don't want to be killers or hunters will now have way more utility.

Stonecrafters, Jewelers, lots of subguilds now will have targeted things to ask for, grebbers become a real player required part of the game again versus just a way to make coded money making.

Storehouses and warehouse can be gone through, the true value of an item can be gauged, things like intestines that you thought were useless now have a use.  Hooooly SHIT.

I'm -so- fucking stoked for this.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Olafson on December 11, 2022, 12:04:04 PM
Fantastic change.  Hours of reading to come.

Kudos for this!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 11, 2022, 12:38:20 PM
I hope no one plans to get any roleplay done today with everyone hidden away analyzing ALL THE THINGS!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: cnemus on December 11, 2022, 01:52:42 PM
analyze everything

THANK YOU!!

Kudos to all the staff who did the thing and all the players who helped advocate for the thing. Much love to you all.

Best change ever.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Filthy_Grey_Rat on December 11, 2022, 02:29:39 PM
Alright, now who analyzed a piece of bone and crashed the game?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halcyon on December 11, 2022, 02:41:47 PM

+1 for a great deal of YES!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on December 11, 2022, 02:48:11 PM
This is the best change I've seen all year. Much love, ya'll. Beautiful stuff!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 11, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
SCENE:
A commoner is meeting with a Kadius Overseer at a fancy tavern:
The silk dripping man nods to the salty grebber, while looking at an uncut diamond, "So you want to make this into something for your beloved?"

the salty grebber nods a few times, "Yeah, my girl is Darla the whore, she said she'd go with me if I could get her a fancy piece of jewelry, and I'm trying to get her out of the life, besides those other guys are just sid, she loves me!"

The silk dripping man barely conceals a smirk and nods, "Riiight, well if you bring a piece of jozhal bone, I can make it into a grand piece for the small sum of, one large."

The salty grebber smiles and produces the jozhal bone from a ratty sack at this side, "Like this!?"

The silk dripping man nods again, "Yes, and the coins?"

The salty grebber digs in his pouch and pulls out a large sum of sids handing it to The silk dripping man, "Yea yea here!"

END SCENE
CUE SLOGAN :(Musical) Every kiss begins with Kadius!
FADE TO BLACK

This is the type of thing that can happen now due to this change and I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: whengravityfails on December 11, 2022, 06:15:04 PM
I absolutely love this change. Thank you for this so much.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 11, 2022, 07:41:31 PM
This opens up so many opportunities for RP/Code Fusion, actually being able to do what you roleplay.

You can now be a chef, and really make different dishes without years of ooc knowledge.

You can be a perfume maker and use a way underused skill floristry.

You can be a legit tailor, focusing on making clothing that's not armor based and not be in Kadius.

You can categorize things by color without memorizing every recipe for dyes and combinations of things like feathers.

This is probably the most revolutionary change to the game in a long long while.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: flurry on December 11, 2022, 09:39:46 PM
I wonder how many times 'analyze' has been typed today.

So many fun discoveries already with minimal exploring the new feature. I'm also happy knowing some of my old mastercrafts, whose recipes were otherwise unlikely to be discovered, might see the light of day again.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: FantasyWriter on December 11, 2022, 10:06:09 PM
Quote from: flurry on December 11, 2022, 09:39:46 PM
I wonder how many times 'analyze' has been typed today.

So many fun discoveries already with minimal exploring the new feature. I'm also happy knowing some of my old mastercrafts, whose recipes were otherwise unlikely to be discovered, might see the light of day again.

Yeah I am currently playing my favorite crafting skillset, and I am amazed at what I have found.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on December 11, 2022, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: flurry on December 11, 2022, 09:39:46 PM
I wonder how many times 'analyze' has been typed today.

As of about 10:25pm ST, so around 13 hours since this change went live:   1,735
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on December 11, 2022, 11:48:31 PM
Best code update of the century.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: TragicMagick on December 12, 2022, 12:42:06 AM
Quote from: Halaster on December 11, 2022, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: flurry on December 11, 2022, 09:39:46 PM
I wonder how many times 'analyze' has been typed today.

As of about 10:25pm ST, so around 13 hours since this change went live:   1,735

This fixed every gripe I think I've ever had with the crafting system. I'm so excited to see how this pans out.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 12, 2022, 02:41:41 AM
Quote from: Halaster on December 11, 2022, 10:26:26 PM
Quote from: flurry on December 11, 2022, 09:39:46 PM
I wonder how many times 'analyze' has been typed today.

As of about 10:25pm ST, so around 13 hours since this change went live:   1,735

Rookie numbers, gotta pump these up.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on December 12, 2022, 06:40:04 AM
happy happy happy , joy joy joy joy
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: creeper386 on December 12, 2022, 02:03:15 PM
Quote from: brokkkrr
With the changes to analyze, will no longer be supporting mastercraft recipes in Player Clan (this is a specific clan used at certain stages of the player clan process).  Since everyone in that clan can now analyze and craft such recipes and the output doesn't tell them it is locked into that generic clan.

That's a big RIP. Is it possible to label them by clan like they are labeled by skill?

How was this handled if you stumbled upon a "craft x y z" that happened to be from a different player clan?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on December 12, 2022, 02:25:44 PM
I think it just reinforces something a little extra. Making a 'new kind of special spoon' won't do you much good, as a custom craft, because people may be able to discover how to make it easily.

HOWEVER, if your player clan always has a sigil (some crafted amethyst thing or whatever), it might take a little longer to discover. If you want your craft to be a 'secret', you'll have to actually develop a whole new technique, or a tool designed specifically for it.

That said... please craft actual pots to piss in for tanning/leatherworking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kronibas on December 12, 2022, 02:38:51 PM

Excellent work with everything here lately, y'all.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: BadSkeelz on December 13, 2022, 06:52:20 PM
For Analyze, would it be possible to add in a filtering command similar to "Forage stone for obsidian" to parse out (or parse for) particular results? Analyzing some particular items can produce a lot of results.

Really dig it otherwise, that spam can have some interesting things in there.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on December 13, 2022, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 13, 2022, 06:52:20 PM
For Analyze, would it be possible to add in a filtering command similar to "Forage stone for obsidian" to parse out (or parse for) particular results? Analyzing some particular items can produce a lot of results.

Pleeeeeeeeeese.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: creeper386 on December 15, 2022, 05:49:05 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 13, 2022, 06:52:20 PM
For Analyze, would it be possible to add in a filtering command similar to "Forage stone for obsidian" to parse out (or parse for) particular results? Analyzing some particular items can produce a lot of results.

Really dig it otherwise, that spam can have some interesting things in there.

Particular things I'd want to see is filtering by skill or result keyword.

> analyze stone skill stonecrafting
> analyze stone result mortar


Last one being using multiple items to see what can be crafted with those two things. This might be best just moving the crafting analyzer to a different command, honestly I think it'd fit better being part of craft.

> craft stone
You could craft a pair of stone dice.
you could craft a small hammer combined with a stick.

> craft bone stone
You could craft a nose ring.
you could craft a blah combined with x, y z.


How it could look combined with the other ideas.
> craft piece.bone skill cooking
> craft piece.bone results dice
> craft branch stone skill club making
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Barsook on February 19, 2023, 10:34:34 AM
Quote- Tavern flag finished.  Any room you see that says "Tavern" will do the following:
       - Throwing/shooting into a tavern suffers a severe penalty to success.  If you're IN the tavern, there is no penalty
       - Improved Language Learning - double the speed, and twice as likely to 'pop' a new language
       - Taverns treat crimcode as if a soldier is there - meaning if you fail something, your are guaranteed to get flagged as a criminal
       - Using the PSI command only consumes 2 focus

Awesause! Thank you!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Malken on February 19, 2023, 11:13:20 AM
Nice!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: najdorf on February 19, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
I'd add backstab / sap to the list too. As someone who lost a few characters to tavern backstabbings, it is pretty lame that assaulters can get away from that easily. If you want to whack someone in a tavern, just wait till they leave to the quiet street or alley for the sake of some RP.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on February 19, 2023, 01:11:11 PM
Quote from: najdorf on February 19, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
I'd add backstab / sap to the list too. As someone who lost a few characters to tavern backstabbings, it is pretty lame that assaulters can get away from that easily. If you want to whack someone in a tavern, just wait till they leave to the quiet street or alley for the sake of some RP.

You can still throw weapons and be successful if you're in the same room as someone.  It's the "I'm going to shoot someone in a tavern while I am on the roof / street outside of it" scenario that was adjusted.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on February 19, 2023, 02:08:15 PM
Great changes recently, you can tell they are reading and absorbing the worries of the players.  Lots of this came from the what would entice you thread.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on February 19, 2023, 04:17:02 PM
Quote from: najdorf on February 19, 2023, 11:37:59 AM
I'd add backstab / sap to the list too. As someone who lost a few characters to tavern backstabbings, it is pretty lame that assaulters can get away from that easily. If you want to whack someone in a tavern, just wait till they leave to the quiet street or alley for the sake of some RP.

It is JUST as RP to whack someone in a bar as it is on the street. More mobsters have been whacked in restaurants than on sidewalks.

And if I want to gank someone, being flagged crim ain't going to stop me from doing so. It's still quite easy to get away.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: creeper386 on February 19, 2023, 06:30:49 PM
I actually don't like the auto crime flagged if you fail.

Most the bars seems to be described as pretty busy with a lot going on.

Even if someone catches you with your hand in their pocket, by the time a soldier could get around there is a chance you could be out of there.

But honestly I'd like to see something done with the crime code. It's far to binary right now, and kind of oppressive in my mind.

And I don't even play thieves.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on February 19, 2023, 08:54:58 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 19, 2023, 06:30:49 PM
I actually don't like the auto crime flagged if you fail.

Most the bars seems to be described as pretty busy with a lot going on.

Even if someone catches you with your hand in their pocket, by the time a soldier could get around there is a chance you could be out of there.

But honestly I'd like to see something done with the crime code. It's far to binary right now, and kind of oppressive in my mind.

And I don't even play thieves.

The frequent complaint from the playerbase is:
"A thief constantly tries to pickpocket me and fail, again and again, and yet I cannot catch them in the act."
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: MeTekillot on February 19, 2023, 10:10:19 PM
I agree with the changes.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on February 20, 2023, 12:21:26 AM
I wonder if the Ample Goblet was marked as a tavern
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: creeper386 on February 20, 2023, 04:26:42 AM
Quote from: mansa on February 19, 2023, 08:54:58 PM
The frequent complaint from the playerbase is:
"A thief constantly tries to pickpocket me and fail, again and again, and yet I cannot catch them in the act."

I know the complaint. The solution I don't think is "we need more crimcode."

Thieves and other ill to do characters codedly and OOCily already just get crapped on, because of how I think in general stealth works and is just too insane.

I'd rather something like, "the more someone pick pockets the same person the more likely they are to not just fail, but critically fail."

Because I'm pretty sure I've had thieves follow me around town stealing out of my backpack. A tavern penalty doesn't stop thieving from being a problem, it just means thieving is less likely to happen in a tavern even though it's probably a great place for it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Halaster on February 20, 2023, 08:46:23 AM
Quote from: creeper386 on February 20, 2023, 04:26:42 AM
Quote from: mansa on February 19, 2023, 08:54:58 PM
The frequent complaint from the playerbase is:
"A thief constantly tries to pickpocket me and fail, again and again, and yet I cannot catch them in the act."

I know the complaint. The solution I don't think is "we need more crimcode."

Thieves and other ill to do characters codedly and OOCily already just get crapped on, because of how I think in general stealth works and is just too insane.

I'd rather something like, "the more someone pick pockets the same person the more likely they are to not just fail, but critically fail."

Because I'm pretty sure I've had thieves follow me around town stealing out of my backpack. A tavern penalty doesn't stop thieving from being a problem, it just means thieving is less likely to happen in a tavern even though it's probably a great place for it.

I generally agree with this sentiment.  Our crim system could use a facelift, but until that happens, I think this is a good solution for taverns.  Until that happens.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:12:55 PM
There are three pickpocket fails.

The first one is you can't get the item but they don't notice.

The second one is that they notice but you don't activate crimcode.

The third one is a crit fail that they notice AND activates crimcode.

I would suggest that second and third level fails apply a 5 minute hediff to the character who was being stolen from called "Watchfulness". It essentially would make stealing from that person as difficult as it would be if the thief were being watched directly.

In this manner, I could try to steal from Joe at the bar, fail, and then when he is on the alert I move and start trying to steal from Bob at the other end of the bar.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: creeper386 on February 20, 2023, 03:31:29 PM
Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:12:55 PM
In this manner, I could try to steal from Joe at the bar, fail, and then when he is on the alert I move and start trying to steal from Bob at the other end of the bar.

I think it'd be nice to have awareness sometimes applied to more people. Either the table or the bar, when there are multiple obvious fails. Or perhaps some sort of awareness just applies when you see a thief fail. One of those, I just watched Bob catch someone in his pockets, now I'm more aware.

But in order for someone to try at the other end of the bar, we probably need to make sure there is other ends of the bar to do it at. Like, I could imagine splitting the Gaj up into multiple rooms. Entryway, a room with a several tables, to rooms with a "the bar", and probably some more tables. To convey the size of the tavern. Then you actually COULD have a thief, "work the crowd" in a more realistic way.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: FantasyWriter on February 20, 2023, 03:58:38 PM
Instead of auto crim-coding, why not drastically increase the chance that a fail identifies the thief to the mark?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 16, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1091099.html#msg1091099
REMOVED the combat damage penalties for low strength characters

This is a huge change.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 16, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1091099.html#msg1091099
REMOVED the combat damage penalties for low strength characters

This is a huge change.

Can a big brain ELI5 this? Low strength variance or strength no longer has meaning there period? (I assume that's not the case but)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on April 16, 2023, 01:42:04 PM
Quote from: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 16, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1091099.html#msg1091099
REMOVED the combat damage penalties for low strength characters

This is a huge change.

Can a big brain ELI5 this? Low strength variance or strength no longer has meaning there period? (I assume that's not the case but)


Elves and other low strength characters would have a NEGATIVE modifier to their damage roll.

For example:
With a below average strength elf, you might have a -3 to you damage.

So if you have a dagger, you would do 1d4 -3 damage.  Which means when you hit, you had a 25% chance to do 1 damage.   And if someone had armor in that area, you "bounced" off their armors 100% of the time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:52:32 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clarification.

So elves are the actual master race now right?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 16, 2023, 03:14:36 PM
Removed penalties for low str is really good. I heard that when the poison changes went through a delf clan abused the hell out of a poison that lowers strength to have super absurd sparring sessions.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Knight of Knives on April 16, 2023, 09:41:08 PM
Quote from: mansa on April 16, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1091099.html#msg1091099
REMOVED the combat damage penalties for low strength characters

This is a huge change.

Wow, I love it
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on April 19, 2023, 02:09:39 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:52:32 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clarification.

So elves are the actual master race now right?

Always have been :)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on April 19, 2023, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on April 19, 2023, 02:09:39 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:52:32 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clarification.

So elves are the actual master race now right?

Always have been :)

I would show you the door, but as an elf-lover, I assume you're more used to having to sneak out the window under the cover of night.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: ShaiHulud on April 21, 2023, 02:02:00 AM
Quote from: Riev on April 19, 2023, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on April 19, 2023, 02:09:39 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:52:32 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clarification.

So elves are the actual master race now right?

Always have been :)


I would show you the door, but as an elf-lover, I assume you're more used to having to sneak out the window under the cover of night.

Windows? what the krath fuck are those?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 21, 2023, 02:41:50 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on April 21, 2023, 02:02:00 AM
Quote from: Riev on April 19, 2023, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: ShaiHulud on April 19, 2023, 02:09:39 AM
Quote from: Aruven on April 16, 2023, 01:52:32 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clarification.

So elves are the actual master race now right?

Always have been :)


I would show you the door, but as an elf-lover, I assume you're more used to having to sneak out the window under the cover of night.

Windows? what the krath fuck are those?
I only use GNU+Linux to allow natural light in through the walls of my buildings. It sounds like they are using forbidden proprietary software.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 28, 2023, 07:15:34 PM
We need clarification on what these salt changes entail.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 28, 2023, 07:52:25 PM
The optimal way to turn in salt used to be 5 per bag.  That is no longer the case.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 29, 2023, 12:31:15 PM
Will a .8 full bag give a significantly worse reward than a .9 or 1.0 full bag?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on April 29, 2023, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on April 28, 2023, 07:52:25 PM
The optimal way to turn in salt used to be 5 per bag.  That is no longer the case.
Was this optimizing for revenue or profit? You need to pay for the bags beforehand
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Brokkr on April 29, 2023, 05:28:34 PM
Marginal profit.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 07, 2023, 11:46:49 AM
Today's release is pretty big:

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1092008.html#msg1092008
QuoteMay 7, 2023 (Sunday)

Halaster
- Tweak to Elementalists and Nilazi interactions
- Updated sap so that you can only use staff and smaller.  Mauls and bigger are too big.
- Increased command input length from 256 to 300.  This means you can have 44 more characters on emotes.
- Firebreather spell can now be cast in combat
- Fixed bug so that NPC's no longer heal health, stun, stamina while in combat
- Fixed bug with riding calculations for full guild elementalists
- Updated multipliers for stun and health damage for the following:
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for waist location by 62.5%
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for piercing/stabbing weapons by 31.8%
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for bludgeoning weapons by 16.7%
        - raised stun damage multiplier for chopping weapons by 60%
        - lowered health damage multiplier for wrist location by 40%
        - lowered health damage multiplier for waist location by 25%
- Added a rare mount to the feed system
- Desert elves now have a minimum of 1 stamina loss in the city, instead of 0
- Added feature where in combat you can type "assist clan" or "assist tribe" and it will have you assist the first person in your clan that you can see.
- Updated 'after' delay on threaten command to go down as skill level goes up

Zorkbob the Inhaler
- Fixed bug where certain light objects would last forever but shouldn't
- Fixed bug where damaged armor was sold at much higher prices than it should
- Fixed bug where coin weight was slightly different in packs vs in inventory
- Updated statistics logging (number, locations of players) for future use
- Fixed typo in damage message from 'torn' to 'tear'
- Can no longer hunt in rooms where you cannot see
- Added the word 'tool' to crafting messages that tell you what tool type is required
- Fixed issue with some affects flags
- Fixed a crash bug with falling

Updated sap so that you can only use staff and smaller.  Mauls and bigger are too big.
That's cool.

Increased command input length from 256 to 300.  This means you can have 44 more characters on emotes.
Ooooo.   Nice.


- Updated multipliers for stun and health damage for the following:
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for piercing/stabbing weapons by 31.8%
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for bludgeoning weapons by 16.7%
        - raised stun damage multiplier for chopping weapons by 60%

This is interesting.  A reduction in stun damage multiplier for bludgeoning weapons.  I wonder how much this will change the meta.

        - lowered stun damage multiplier for waist location by 62.5%
        - lowered health damage multiplier for waist location by 25%
        - lowered health damage multiplier for wrist location by 40%

That's also interesting.  It shouldn't hurt as much getting hit in the wrist or in the waist.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 07, 2023, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: mansa on May 07, 2023, 11:46:49 AM

- Updated multipliers for stun and health damage for the following:
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for piercing/stabbing weapons by 31.8%
        - lowered stun damage multiplier for bludgeoning weapons by 16.7%
        - raised stun damage multiplier for chopping weapons by 60%

This is interesting.  A reduction in stun damage multiplier for bludgeoning weapons.  I wonder how much this will change the meta.


Admittedly I AM concerned about lowering bludgeon percentages THIS much (16 big whoop) after already 'nerfing' strength and two handed.

HGs were not looking good, and now I am struggling with why you would play one other than to go back to the good old subdue/kill.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on May 07, 2023, 01:52:12 PM
Bludgeoning isn't some HG-specific thing. Other people can and do use the skill too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 07, 2023, 02:44:02 PM
Quote from: Patuk on May 07, 2023, 01:52:12 PM
Bludgeoning isn't some HG-specific thing. Other people can and do use the skill too.

An interesting story. And, this affects other people as well. I was talking about one thing specifically.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Agent_137 on May 07, 2023, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 07, 2023, 01:45:15 PM
HGs were not looking good, and now I am struggling with why you would play one other than to go back to the good old subdue/kill.

Obviously reasons for playing one would be enjoying half-giant role play. Are you saying they're not very survivable now?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on May 07, 2023, 03:06:04 PM
Quote from: Agent_137 on May 07, 2023, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 07, 2023, 01:45:15 PM
HGs were not looking good, and now I am struggling with why you would play one other than to go back to the good old subdue/kill.

Obviously reasons for playing one would be enjoying half-giant role play. Are you saying they're not very survivable now?
Sadly, this is not the reason most people play half-giants in my experience.  It's the One Hit Kill potential and 300 hps (Or whatever they get)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: roughneck on May 07, 2023, 05:57:49 PM
The stun thing needed to be addressed. Head shots were craaaaaazy, and probably still are even with the medium reduction.

Half-giants still have insta bash, double the hp of another PC, can use bigger weapons, and extra strength advantage.

It's probably harder for them to two-hit kill something now, but I see nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Wday on May 07, 2023, 06:44:18 PM
Not real sure but so far it has made playing a HG very tough.  Not for the one hit wonders but they seem more for rp now then action characters.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on May 08, 2023, 03:30:52 PM
Quote from: Wday on May 07, 2023, 06:44:18 PM
Not real sure but so far it has made playing a HG very tough.  Not for the one hit wonders but they seem more for rp now then action characters.

This. I'm kind of sick and tired of other players assuming my intentions, but there should be a reason to choose a race other than flavor and RP. Too many players dick on half-giants for not roleplaying 'the right way' and now the only reason to play one IS to roleplay... so... something has to give.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on May 08, 2023, 03:52:50 PM
Quote- Fixed bug so that NPC's no longer heal health, stun, stamina while in combat
Does this mean the will no longer start doing the extremely absurdly fast npc heal 2 seconds after fleeing? It's very annoying when you get an animal to very low hitpoints and then by the time you've sheathed your weapons drawn your bow and pulled your quiver and shot an arrow it's regenerated to full.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Krath on May 08, 2023, 04:00:16 PM
Quote from: Wday on May 07, 2023, 06:44:18 PM
Not real sure but so far it has made playing a HG very tough.  Not for the one hit wonders but they seem more for rp now then action characters.

Yeah....100% on this. The bludgeon change meh.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on May 14, 2023, 11:52:26 AM
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1092239.html#msg1092239
QuoteMay 14, 2023 (Sunday)

Halaster
- Fixed missing wear-off message for a Nilazi spell
- Fixed bug with Nilaz/Elementalist interactions
- Thryzn now available as 1 karma option - note these still require approval before hand, they're just like desert elves now
- Combat delay between attacks normalized to be more consistent. Large variations are still possible, but less likely.  This should result in slightly more consistent, faster attacks.

Zorkbob the Inhaler
- Fixed bug with 'pack' command showing improperly formatted list
- Fixed crash bug with shopkeepers
- Introduced Global DB Variables, which will allow staff to modify game certain mechanic values without reboots



This one is interesting:
- Combat delay between attacks normalized to be more consistent. Large variations are still possible, but less likely.  This should result in slightly more consistent, faster attacks.

I wonder how much this will actually affect combat.   Will sparring be too slow, too fast?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: slipshod on July 17, 2023, 10:36:02 AM
I think it would be nice if two people could combine efforts to more effectively subdue the same single target.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kP9iuRZiea4/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Riev on July 17, 2023, 10:45:54 AM
'Tok Pile on Tower Moze!
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 12:36:39 PM
I'm just curious of two things with the current release notes.

Why did the mutants get full witch removed?

and

Was the memory leak what was causing us to lag like crazy during US prime time?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Quote- Desert elves now have a minimum of 1 stamina loss in the city, instead of 0

I'm very late to the party, but this affects walking and is quite annoying. You need stamina to leave and run back to whatever spot in the desert you came from. So now you lose a lot of stamina even on a quick in-and-out trip, and need to sit somewhere for ten minutes to recover. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be suddenly massively short-winded from walking or running short distances when other races have no problems.

What's the reason for this? Most of the currently open tribes do go into cities as by the docs, and have been encouraged to do that to promote interaction. In my experience players rarely went before this change, and that's not going to help.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: mansa on November 11, 2023, 12:59:10 PM
Quote from: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 12:36:39 PMI'm just curious of two things with the current release notes.

Why did the mutants get full witch removed?

Thryzn were never allowed to have the standard magicker subclasses.  When the new 'full guild drov/vivaduan' was implemented a month ago, it was incorrectly added to the Thryzn class selection.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 01:10:58 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Quote- Desert elves now have a minimum of 1 stamina loss in the city, instead of 0

I'm very late to the party, but this affects walking and is quite annoying. You need stamina to leave and run back to whatever spot in the desert you came from. So now you lose a lot of stamina even on a quick in-and-out trip, and need to sit somewhere for ten minutes to recover. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be suddenly massively short-winded from walking or running short distances when other races have no problems.

What's the reason for this? Most of the currently open tribes do go into cities as by the docs, and have been encouraged to do that to promote interaction. In my experience players rarely went before this change, and that's not going to help.

I think this only accounts for running skinnys, if you walk I don't think you incur the stamina drain.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 01:10:58 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Quote- Desert elves now have a minimum of 1 stamina loss in the city, instead of 0

I'm very late to the party, but this affects walking and is quite annoying. You need stamina to leave and run back to whatever spot in the desert you came from. So now you lose a lot of stamina even on a quick in-and-out trip, and need to sit somewhere for ten minutes to recover. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be suddenly massively short-winded from walking or running short distances when other races have no problems.

What's the reason for this? Most of the currently open tribes do go into cities as by the docs, and have been encouraged to do that to promote interaction. In my experience players rarely went before this change, and that's not going to help.

I think this only accounts for running skinnys, if you walk I don't think you incur the stamina drain.

I thought so, too, when I first read this. And that wouldn't be a big deal. But it applies to walking, too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 01:34:43 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 01:10:58 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Quote- Desert elves now have a minimum of 1 stamina loss in the city, instead of 0

I'm very late to the party, but this affects walking and is quite annoying. You need stamina to leave and run back to whatever spot in the desert you came from. So now you lose a lot of stamina even on a quick in-and-out trip, and need to sit somewhere for ten minutes to recover. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be suddenly massively short-winded from walking or running short distances when other races have no problems.

What's the reason for this? Most of the currently open tribes do go into cities as by the docs, and have been encouraged to do that to promote interaction. In my experience players rarely went before this change, and that's not going to help.

I think this only accounts for running skinnys, if you walk I don't think you incur the stamina drain.

I thought so, too, when I first read this. But it applies to walking, too.
Are you sure you're not too encumbered?  Elves are notoriously wimps

If not and it's draining to simply walk, that shit sounds broken, I'd open a bug report.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 01:37:37 PM
Quote from: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 01:34:43 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: Pariah on November 11, 2023, 01:10:58 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 12:57:00 PM
Quote- Desert elves now have a minimum of 1 stamina loss in the city, instead of 0

I'm very late to the party, but this affects walking and is quite annoying. You need stamina to leave and run back to whatever spot in the desert you came from. So now you lose a lot of stamina even on a quick in-and-out trip, and need to sit somewhere for ten minutes to recover. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be suddenly massively short-winded from walking or running short distances when other races have no problems.

What's the reason for this? Most of the currently open tribes do go into cities as by the docs, and have been encouraged to do that to promote interaction. In my experience players rarely went before this change, and that's not going to help.

I think this only accounts for running skinnys, if you walk I don't think you incur the stamina drain.

I thought so, too, when I first read this. But it applies to walking, too.
Are you sure you're not too encumbered?  Elves are notoriously wimps

If not and it's draining to simply walk, that shit sounds broken, I'd open a bug report.

Yes, I have encumbrance in my prompt.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 02:31:26 PM
Yes Delves get 1 encumbrance loss per room in cities. They shouldn't be spending much time in cities and you get +100 stamina anyway, so it really shouldn't be an issue if you're not spending massive amounts of time inside.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 02:48:38 PM
Quote from: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 02:31:26 PMYes Delves get 1 encumbrance loss per room in cities. They shouldn't be spending much time in cities and you get +100 stamina anyway, so it really shouldn't be an issue if you're not spending massive amounts of time inside.

It's an issue because unlike other races, they
1. Need to leave, and
2. Can't just hop on a mount and ride home without using stamina, they NEED that mv to get anywhere else.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 02:52:07 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 02:48:38 PMIt's an issue because unlike other races, they
1. Need to leave, and
2. Can't just hop on a mount and ride home without using stamina, they NEED that mv to get anywhere else.
As someone who's played a trade-based delf tribe multiple times and spent a lot of time in settlements, it's seriously not an issue unless you dumped endurance or don't manage your stamina properly. You should have around 200 stamina and it's 1 stamina per room, not to mention, stamina regen is percentage based, so delves regen like 20+ stamina per tick. I seriously have no idea how you could be struggling with it because the bonus stamina delves get is super generous.

I mean, outside, delves only use a single stamina point per room while they're running on a road, a big 'skill' part of playing a delf is knowing where you can run to and the different resting areas to get your stamina back. Not to mention, in the north, you get massive stamina regen while in the grasslands.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on November 11, 2023, 03:04:39 PM
-1 stamina per room equals out to, like, fifteen points at most off the 200+ any rando delf is gonna have. This is not some huge deal and I don't know what it'd take to convince me otherwise.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Triskelion on November 11, 2023, 03:08:58 PM
Quote from: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 02:52:07 PMnot to mention, stamina regen is percentage based, so delves regen like 20+ stamina per tick

That's not true at all. Desert elves regenerate the same amount as anyone else. It's 8-12 depending on class.

But taking 1 stamina per room in cities is a non-issue either way. I do think it should be 0 when walking, though, like any other race. There's no logical explanation for why d-elves would be worse at walking.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 03:14:17 PM
Quote from: Triskelion on November 11, 2023, 03:08:58 PMThat's not true at all. Desert elves regenerate the same amount as anyone else. It's 8-12 depending on class.
I feel like I've experienced otherwise, but I'm not gonna argue code. I think my point still stands, Desert Elves losing a singular stamina out of their 200 while in an area they're not supposed to regularly be in is fine.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 03:23:27 PM
Depending on which tribe you're in, distance to settlements varies. Two Moons locations are very close, the other two - not so much.
This turns resting once into resting twice. Or getting really low on stamina, which makes you extremely vulnerable if some aggro beastie shows up, so it should be something you avoid.

I said it's very annoying and does not make sense. It's an extra rest and extra sitting around for however long it takes you to regenerate that 50 stamina that you used up inside Allanak, running around for a quick supply run. And sitting around does not make for a very fun experience, it's the whole reason feed code was introduced for mounts.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the grasslands - out of all tribes, the one there has fewer reasons to enter a city than the other two.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 03:26:23 PM
Quote from: Patuk on November 11, 2023, 03:04:39 PM-1 stamina per room equals out to, like, fifteen points at most off the 200+ any rando delf is gonna have. This is not some huge deal and I don't know what it'd take to convince me otherwise.

Fifteen points is seven (and a half) rooms in and back out. That's maybe enough to get to the market in Red Storm. Visit two areas in Allanak and you're closer to fifty in no time.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Triskelion on November 11, 2023, 03:33:45 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 03:23:27 PMDepending on which tribe you're in, distance to settlements varies. Two Moons locations are very close, the other two - not so much.

Well, I don't think the other two tribes have much interest in going to Allanak in the first place. The ATV camp is pretty close to Tuluk, and the Dune Stalkers are basically terrorists.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 03:49:42 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 03:26:23 PMFifteen points is seven (and a half) rooms in and back out. That's maybe enough to get to the market in Red Storm. Visit two areas in Allanak and you're closer to fifty in no time.

You can also step into any building that lines the entire city and rest for like 10 seconds to get it all back.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: Triskelion on November 11, 2023, 03:33:45 PMWell, I don't think the other two tribes have much interest in going to Allanak in the first place. The ATV camp is pretty close to Tuluk, and the Dune Stalkers are basically terrorists.

Have you read the DS docs? Honest question, because they are pretty clear on Dune Stalkers in cities.

Quote from: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 03:49:42 PMYou can also step into any building that lines the entire city and rest for like 10 seconds to get it all back.
Delves regenerate at the same rate as humans or slightly slower because their lower cap for endurance is lower. It takes a while.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Patuk on November 11, 2023, 05:27:53 PM
If recuperating inside city buildings (or even on the city streets tbqh) is a long while to you I'm not sure we're ever gonna see eye to eye, man.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: zealus on November 11, 2023, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 05:02:12 PM
Quote from: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 03:49:42 PMYou can also step into any building that lines the entire city and rest for like 10 seconds to get it all back.
Delves regenerate at the same rate as humans or slightly slower because their lower cap for endurance is lower. It takes a while.


You mean.... like 1 minute?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: RheaGhe on November 11, 2023, 05:57:12 PM
As someone who doesn't even consider a human stalker regenning outdoors in hot weather a slow regen...

I'm a little at a loss. Just duck inside before you hit the slower threshold if you want to make less painful as well. It'll take literally a minute.

Literally... This change was a needed balancing factor. Because Desert Elves could basically zoompunch city folk and get out before the guards arrived if they were fast enough with input. The stamina loss makes it possible, to KIND of catch them.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: betweenford on November 11, 2023, 07:40:04 PM
Quote from: Kavrick on November 11, 2023, 03:14:17 PM
Quote from: Triskelion on November 11, 2023, 03:08:58 PMThat's not true at all. Desert elves regenerate the same amount as anyone else. It's 8-12 depending on class.
I feel like I've experienced otherwise, but I'm not gonna argue code. I think my point still stands, Desert Elves losing a singular stamina out of their 200 while in an area they're not supposed to regularly be in is fine.
You're probably mistaking how stamina regen SPEED is % based, and how it slows dramatically when you drop lower than 50?

In reply to some other posts in this thread, it kinda-sorta didn't balance anything for the majority of delves? It just removed their ability to run for 0 cost inside of cities
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Triskelion on November 11, 2023, 08:27:17 PM
It makes no meaningful difference either way. I bet that ten RL years can go by where nobody suffers actual consquences from the fact that it takes one point of movement to run in the city. What are you gonna do, start an Aladdin-esque chase sequence while you're at 20mv and end up exhausted at Meleth's Square where the evil soldiers catch up and kill you? Never gonna happen.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: dunecrawler on November 11, 2023, 09:01:11 PM
Walking and running. Walking takes one point, too.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: LindseyBalboa on November 12, 2023, 12:37:46 PM
... what kind of desert elf walks anywhere, ever, period?

did the pc's legs get broken?

how did anyone even find out about elven walking mv?

i didn't even know elves could walk.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on November 12, 2023, 01:43:03 PM
Might have been a balance thing, if you got skinnies running all over for no stamina cost and have human militia/legion trying to run them down, that puts them at a negative to catch said skinnyies.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on December 02, 2023, 10:30:53 AM
Aesira
- Removed the ability to check if people are online by using contact in a certain way
- Removed the ability to check if people are online by casting certain spells

=====================
Can we get a bit of explanation here?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 02, 2023, 10:33:12 AM
Quote from: Fredd on December 02, 2023, 10:30:53 AMAesira
- Removed the ability to check if people are online by using contact in a certain way
- Removed the ability to check if people are online by casting certain spells

=====================
Can we get a bit of explanation here?
PM me, I'll explain it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Miradus on December 02, 2023, 11:56:13 AM
How about share with the class since the exploit has been removed?
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 02, 2023, 12:08:14 PM
Spells I don't know what is up with that one.

But the contact one is one I bugged myself.  If you were in combat with say a scrab, and you type Contact Pariah and I was online it would say "Not in combat" but if I was offline you'd get the normal fail message.

So if you were looking for Pariah and wanted to see if he was online, you just had to get into a round or two of combat and type contact pariah to know if I was playing or logged off based on the way the code treated it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Lotion on December 02, 2023, 01:25:52 PM
You can start to cast a spell and then cancel it by typing "craft" or anything else which breaks concentration. I'd imagine the spell exploit was to attempt casting a spell which can be cast remotely targeting specific keywords. If there's no target you would get a generic "no target found" message and if they exist then you can type "craft" to stop casting before you actually spend mana to cast the spell.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Triskelion on December 02, 2023, 01:49:33 PM
Quote from: Pariah on December 02, 2023, 12:08:14 PMSpells I don't know what is up with that one.

But the contact one is one I bugged myself.  If you were in combat with say a scrab, and you type Contact Pariah and I was online it would say "Not in combat" but if I was offline you'd get the normal fail message.

So if you were looking for Pariah and wanted to see if he was online, you just had to get into a round or two of combat and type contact pariah to know if I was playing or logged off based on the way the code treated it.

That's not a glitch, that's the superior psionic aura of the scrab people. (\|)╭•̀ﮧ •́╮(|/)

Scraaab people, scraaab people...
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kavrick on December 02, 2023, 02:07:58 PM
I like removing the ability to meta-game using contact. But this will compound the issue with there being no mechanics in place to find people to interact with. I still think the game really needs an opt-in who list to help people with this issue.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on December 02, 2023, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Kavrick on December 02, 2023, 02:07:58 PMI like removing the ability to meta-game using contact. But this will compound the issue with there being no mechanics in place to find people to interact with. I still think the game really needs an opt-in who list to help people with this issue.

These used to exist. But I think cwho got removed a long time ago, to facilitate people sneaking off to bump uglies.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Kavrick on December 02, 2023, 04:26:42 PM
Quote from: Fredd on December 02, 2023, 04:10:58 PMThese used to exist. But I think cwho got removed a long time ago, to facilitate people sneaking off to bump uglies.

I mean, that's why I kinda wanted 'opt in' who. Nearly every other mud I know has that.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Aesira on December 02, 2023, 06:17:39 PM
I prefer not to have discussions about how and why things like this have changed. It's not to be secretive. I don't feel that discussing code nuance is a good use of my time.

As far as we're concerned, tricks and exploits to reveal information from a meta perspective are not to be used. That includes any ways to determine features, abilities or the presence of a character outside of clearly intentional coded means. There is no justification or back justification that we'll accept for their use, these are not intentional features of the code.

If anybody knows of other spells, skills, commands or bugs that reveal information like this, please let us know via a game bug request.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on December 02, 2023, 08:52:08 PM
Quote from: Aesira on December 02, 2023, 06:17:39 PMI prefer not to have discussions about how and why things like this have changed. It's not to be secretive. I don't feel that discussing code nuance is a good use of my time.



I respectfully disagree. I found this to be very informative.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Pariah on December 02, 2023, 08:53:04 PM
I think she was basically saying while talking about bugs that don't exist anymore isn't against the rules, she doesn't prefer we talk about code like that.  At least that's how I took it.
Title: Re: Release Note discussion!
Post by: Fredd on December 02, 2023, 11:18:48 PM
Quote from: Pariah on December 02, 2023, 08:53:04 PMI think she was basically saying while talking about bugs that don't exist anymore isn't against the rules, she doesn't prefer we talk about code like that.  At least that's how I took it.

No yeah, I got that.

I just happen to find this sort of thing very interesting. I suck at finding exploits personally. So hearing about them after they get fixed is neat to me.

*shrug*