In-game Titles: Questions

[BadSkeelz]

So, what do you guys think are appropriate titles to address people as? I usually just use names, or made up nicknames. Maybe that's a give as to who I'm playing, heh.

I think the real grey area is the time before we learn a PC's name or even proper title. That's where sir, miss, mister, master, etc. came in handy.

For commoners I would use "sir" for military authority figures, or anyone who could reasonably kick my ass and I want to show deference to (i.e. Miradus' "Grebber with a big sword"). If I think they're a Merchant House member, I'll use Merchant or the family name I think is correct.

"Stump," "breed," "necker," and "fuckface" should cover the rest of the bases.

[boog]

I guess I just ask names right away. Or I've always referred to them by their associations. "Amos' breedy friend. Amos' blond friend. What's their name? What the fuck do they do?"

I suppose I see it was far less limiting because of my play style. I just can't comprehend how this could limit someone's play.

[Iiyola]

Why is this an announcement even an issue? Staff is just pointing out something, deal with it if it applies to you. If not, carry on.

[nauta]

One area where a substitute would be wanted: when you play a character who wants to show a modicum of respect yet also is not aware of all the fine-grained titles -- so a feckless commoner, maybe, or a rinther, or a tribal vis-a-vis, say, a soldier or someone who might seem like an aide.

So here's the example:

You: A rinther who dosn't know Private from Corporal from Sergeant or Overseer from Agent from Aide from Merchant.
Them: A pretty well dressed person at the bar named Bob.

Example one:
You: Hello, Mister Bob.
Them: Well, you are gross but at least you know your place.

Example two:
You: Hello, Bob.
Them: Show some respect!

[Miradus]

[BadSkeelz]

One area where a substitute would be wanted: when you play a character who wants to show a modicum of respect yet also is not aware of all the fine-grained titles -- so a feckless commoner, maybe, or a rinther, or a tribal vis-a-vis, say, a soldier or someone who might seem like an aide.

Try "Sexy."

[Bahliker]

Miss was used regularly for several of the big time mover-shaker common women in years past. Wasn't anything wrong with it. It was actually kinda great, to be able to show some measure of respect to someone wealthy enough to show up a borsail but still born of common stock. The connection to the word's RL meaning made it easy. no help files, no documentation, no world building necessary.

That's part of what irks me about this. While it'd be cool to have a similar set of words for each culture, derived from more world-appropriate roles, that's taking worldbuilding to annoying levels. Some of you may have read some of the demon cycle by peter Brett. In the latest one, he introduces so many unnecessary culture-specific phrases, ranks, and honorifics, that at one point the reader has to slog through an entire paragraph in which almost half of the words are made up and they all sound pretty much the same because desert culture y'all.

Instead, please just undo this whole thing and delete that help file. We don't need new words for western honorifics any more than we need new sirihish words for him, her, or it, which we MUST use. And if you believe that a culture in which most everyone is (supposedly) dirt poor and unimportant wouldn't still have its own ways to politely/respectfully address superior men and women, you don't understand civilization.

Please no just leave it alone.

[Nergal]

We aren't introducing new words, simply excluding a few that don't really make sense in Zalanthan culture.

[BadSkeelz]

We aren't introducing new words, simply excluding a few that don't really make sense in Zalanthan culture.

A problem with this approach was highlighted by Miradus and Bahliker (whose post I also happen to agree with).

And if you believe that a culture in which most everyone is (supposedly) dirt poor and unimportant wouldn't still have its own ways to politely/respectfully address superior men and women, you don't understand civilization.

The reasoning behind the removal of these honorifics seems to be that "commoners see each other fundamentally as equals." This just doesn't make sense when you think about interactions in game between various social groups. Southsiders look down on rinthis, a GMH Family Member is clearly not on the same social standing as a Meleth's circle beggar, etc. Terms like Miss and Mister allowed shorthand acknowledgement of a person's superior ranking in life. Using them makes more sense than not using them, and Zalanthas having no local equivalent to such generic honorifics.

Addressing each other by their race or job title can fill the gap, but they don't automatically convey the same amount of respect and deference that honorifics do. Maybe you're hoping that in time they will, but for the moment by dictating that "All commoners are equal and see each other as equal and unworthy of honorifics" you're kinda godmoding our characters.

[Bahliker]

Got that, nergal. I'm saying, if you don't introduce new ones (glad you're not) then don't mess with the ones that are already in place. At most, clarify and define their roles within zalanthan cultures. So what if they came from an era of earth civilization that you feel shouldn't be mirrored on zalanthas? Every single word my character speaks is English, even when he speaks Allundean. The word is there for the player's benefit.

If your reasoning  is that every commoner sees every other commoner as an equally worthless nobody in all circumstances except official military ranks, and also that nobles never see it in their best interest to treat influential commoners with respect, and finally that there's no need for words to represent these things, you're flat out wronnng.

[path]

I find this new restriction disappointing and nitpicky. While honorifics aren't something I've done, I've never felt upset by seeing them in game. Once we get into this judgemental space where other players are not living up to our standards or begin irritating us, why aren't we just writing by ourselves?

These kinds of trends ebb and flow and I think that process is part of what eventually leads Zalanthas to have it's own strong, individual culture over time. That flux is part of the realism.

It seems like what this is really about is an undocumented middle class being played out. I'd rather see a thread about how we can work to exemplify the filthsome, gritty commoner realized in all it's Zalanthan glory. How can we be dirtier, less educated and common?

[Reiloth]

The reason I take exception to this announcement is pretty simple.

A - It was made to seem like it was 'always this way', when that wasn't the case.

B - Documentation to support the change wasn't yet written when the change was announced.

C - People who used these honorifics in game weren't told it wasn't preferred, until it was publicly announced 'this is not preferred, Staff don't like it, don't do it'. It makes players who were using such honorifics feel like perhaps they were under negative scrutiny, or they're having Staff comment on how they play.

D - It isn't a big deal, I agree. I certainly won't use the honorifics anymore, that's not a problem. I too would prefer there be a replacement rather than arbitrarily deciding 'Sirihish and Allanak don't have room for honorifics or gender indicating nouns, even though every other language in the world has some form of it.' But you know what -- It's fine. Staff are who they are, and they want the game world to be what it is. They have policy to dictate how they do things -- I just may not agree with how this was implemented or rolled out. I find a curtsey more anachronistic than 'Mister or Miss', but that's just me.

It's Staff's sandbox. I just play in it. I have strong opinions -- I hope I expressed them civilly.

[bcw81]

I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.

[path]

It was actually kinda great, to be able to show some measure of respect to someone wealthy enough to show up a borsail but still born of common stock.

Ideally this should never happen. If someone is showing up a Borsail ever, they should be dealt with in a public and bloody way. Like the cuddler. Wealth shouldn't be protection against blood.
/derail

[Reiloth]

I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.

That hasn't really been brought up, and it's a good point. If there was more nuance behind a decision like this (The honorifics aren't one day there and the next day blown up), but it was implied that using honorifics for people that clearly don't deserve them is tantamount to Mundanes hanging out with Gemmers all the time...That makes more sense. It's less binary. It's more real, and less forced.

It just isn't how it is on the ground. Not all Commoners are equal, and not all Commoners consider each other equals. Nobles and Templars absolutely think all Commoners are equal (and equally Common), but within the social class of Commoner, it really isn't the case. If Staff wants it to be the case...I don't know what to say really. Honorifics were a way of projecting that acknowledgement that 'You aren't the Scum on the Boot'. Many complex languages in our real world have whole types of grammar devoted to honorifics and the complexities therein. Of course, Sirihish, and Allanaki Sirihish, is probably a far shot from this. But not having any honorifics (or choosing not to use them) seems incredibly alien.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.

This sounds more like a problem of people not understanding racial docs and being insufficiently prejudiced (assuming your breed isn't being called "Miss/Mister" by close acquaintances who might have IC justification for the unusual level of respect).

Words don't screw up proper social interaction, players do.

[boog]

I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.

This sounds more like a problem of people not understanding racial docs and being insufficiently prejudiced (assuming your breed isn't being called "Miss/Mister" by close acquaintances who might have IC justification for the unusual level of respect).

Words don't screw up proper social interaction, players do.

And it's been happening a lot, in my recentish play. I won't get into specifics, but the above example is just one of weird, eye-widening things I've seen occur in game in regards to honorifics. It's not a gender thing. It's a, 'why the fuck are you treating this piece of shit with respect when they're no better than (and in a lot of cases lesser than) you?'

[Miradus]

I don't know if you realize, but for some cultures, using that formal language with someone "Miss/Mister/Sir/Ma'am" is a way of holding them off and saying "don't get informal with me, scum."

Like the Queen of England calling her serving girl "Miss". Nobody is going to suspect that the Queen is showing the serving girl respect. It's just a cultural way of setting boundaries.

[Reiloth]

Seems like something you should file a player complaint over. And I agree with BadSkeelz, it seems like a problem in play/perception between racial docs and just 'docs in general'. The honorific in that scenario wouldn't bother me nearly at all, it would be the treatment.

[Inks]

Maybe your PC doesn't know the story behind the equality or politeness Boog, I have no idea though of course. I agree these titles have no place IG, but I barely ever have seen them used in my years of play and never have felt anachronistic when they are.

Sir for officers has been used a decent amount, but using the rank instead should be fine.

"You over there!" Works for everyone

[Lizzie]

Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.

We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??

[boog]

To be fair, raptor nuggets aren't breaded or fried, though. They're just spiced.

[Reiloth]

Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.

We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??

+1

[Miradus]

To be fair, raptor nuggets aren't breaded or fried, though. They're just spiced.

One of mine had a little paw.

Raptors don't have paws.

#Don'tTrustKuraci

[bcw81]

Seems like something you should file a player complaint over. And I agree with BadSkeelz, it seems like a problem in play/perception between racial docs and just 'docs in general'. The honorific in that scenario wouldn't bother me nearly at all, it would be the treatment.

I kind of wonder if someone did, and that's how we have this thread.