In-game Titles: Questions

[Reiloth]

Hello, kittens.

I just wanted to gently remind you all that words like madam/sir are anachronistic to the setting. One should refer to fellow commoners by their job titles or simply their names as opposed to, 'miss, sir, madam, ma'am,' and other, gender specific titles. The exception of this, of course, is for Ladies or Lords, Templars, or tribal titles documented elsewhere.

Thank you for your adherence and happy playing!

Just curious -- How are titles like these anachronistic? The etymology of 'mister' is 'master', while 'miss' is 'mistress', of which there are many in game (Concubines, mistresses, and so on). While perhaps the modern usage of the word appears anachronistic, it also seems a bit arbitrary to say titles like these are anachronistic. Similar to sir (Sire, or Senior). They are all newer derivations of older words, and sort of shortenings of the previous versions.

Would it be acceptable to call someone 'Master Soandso'?

Would it be acceptable to call someone 'Mistress Soandso'?

[Renenutet]

Those are also a bit jarring.

[Kalden]

I would add that when posting a "reminder", a link to the original documentation is appreciated.

[Reiloth]

I mean, so is calling someone Merchant and Agent over and over again. I don't see any documentation detailing 'common addresses' or anything of the sort, so this just seems to be a quickly decided Staff consensus, and then making it seem like it's always been that way.

Language of any sort always has 'honorifics' that you can attach to a name or to a title. Sir and Madam or Master and Mistress are ways of doing that in english (though I guess c. 1200 is considered anachronistic). So perhaps honorifics could be explored in Sirihish, rather than just eradicated?

Similarly, there have been dozens of things actually anachronistic to the setting -- katanas, sandwiches, and so on. Some things have been explained as 'Leftovers of the Empire of Man', while other things have been removed or changed. It seems unless it is Arabic or Middle-Eastern in theme (which chronologically, many of the things in game are contemporary of 1200AD - 1300AD, just not Anglican or European in origin), it can be labeled as anachronistic to the setting.

I don't really see where it was ever stated this was explicitly wrong? I guess this is the beginning!

[Reiloth]

For example, almost ten years ago, I had a character known as 'Misses Mosali'. No one on Staff seemed to bat an eye, or make any mention of it being anachronistic at the time or since.

To me this seems like a few Staffers getting together and deciding they don't like it when players use "Mr. Miss Sir Sire Ma'am Madame or Master or Mistress", and making a post about it.

It isn't a big deal, but unless there is original documentation to support it, it's new documentation, not a reminder. So the onus isn't on us (the Players who don't know any better or haven't been told otherwise).

[Cayuga]

Do you think, truly, that a grebber is worthy of a title of miss or mister?

Also, if I might add, the etymology of master predates mister by ... quite a while.

[Armaddict]

Arbitrarily decided that this is the case, hmm?

Master and Mistress, in particular, are in no way jarring or anachronistic.

I think you guys are messing up no negativity with no acknowledgement.  Everything is not gender neutral, it's just gender doesn't matter.

[Cayuga]

Master and mistress aren't on my list at all.

[Reiloth]

Do you think, truly, that calling grebbers is worthy of a title of miss or mister?

That's beside the point. It's totally fine if Staff wants to make something like this legit and part of documentation. But I think it's weird to imply it's always been this way, when there is no documentation to support it. Players will follow documentation even if they don't agree with it (I count myself among that population). So just writing up a help-file, saying this is the way it is from now on, would make more sense to me (personally).

I think it's subjective. Sometimes people call someone 'Mister or Miss' to insult them, pretend they are giving them an honorific when they actually are intending the opposite. Mister and Miss are also gender indicators (of which there are none in Sirihish, beyond 'da' and 'di' for Kuraci Family). So introducing someone or asking someone's name..."Mister...What was your name again?" is a sentence not possible without a gender indicating noun.

[Reiloth]

Master and mistress aren't on my list at all.

Those are also a bit jarring.

I love both you guys, but who am I to follow?

[Cayuga]

It isn't beside the point. The very point of the announcement is that commoners are commoners and aren't worthy of honorifics, especially not mildly contemporary titles.

[Cayuga]

Master and mistress aren't on my list at all.

Those are also a bit jarring.

I love both you guys, but who am I to follow?

'A bit jarring,' isn't, "please don't use this."

[Renenutet]

Please understand that no one is in trouble. We are not spanking fingers with rulers.

This is a habit that recently gained traction in Allanak. The increased usage generated conversation among the staff. We have been generally working toward emphasizing the unique Zanthan tenor of the game world and de-emphasizing those things that feel more real world European/Victorian.

[Armaddict]

It isn't beside the point. The very point of the announcement is that commoners are commoners and aren't worthy of honorifics, especially not mildly contemporary titles.

Those contemporary titles are pretty historically accurate across civilizations and timeframes.

They are direct addresses of 'Man' and 'Woman'.  If I walked up and said 'Man Vennant, would you get me a drink?', would you consider that an honorific?

[Cayuga]

Rene's right. We want to steer the gameworld into using titles indicative of a person's stature, and not honorifics that are modern or westernized. We're hoping to create a Zalanthas that is truly unique in artwork, culture, and society from the sort of imperialism that's made these words commonplace in our modern era.

[Cayuga]

It isn't beside the point. The very point of the announcement is that commoners are commoners and aren't worthy of honorifics, especially not mildly contemporary titles.

Those contemporary titles are pretty historically accurate across civilizations and timeframes.

They are direct addresses of 'Man' and 'Woman'.  If I walked up and said 'Man Vennant, would you get me a drink?', would you consider that an honorific?

I think Vennant would stare at you and tell you to get the fuck out of his bar unless you're going to pay him for two mugs of swill.

[Nergal]

We can consider including documentation on what words are acceptable in the setting or not. We will also expect players to take cues from one another in-game. That works both ways: it can result in favorable mannerisms spreading, or unfavorable ones.

Staff have a desire to bring this particular trend to a head immediately. We're not going to waste time as multiple PCs in game use honorifics that we feel makes little sense in the setting. We made that mistake when we allowed PCs to use "big" to refer to a half-giant, as if they were all three years old.

TL;DR: Expect documentation soon. Follow the announcement now.

[Armaddict]

While 'mister' and 'miss' are strange, and not commonly used, I've never considered them jarring from immersion or out of place.

Normally, I find them spilling out of the lips of cute little characters who are trying to be cute, which makes me think of them as cute.

There's plenty of 'Hey asshole!' to counter it in the game.  As of a month ago, really wasn't having a problem with it.

I think Vennant would stare at you and tell you to get the fuck out of his bar unless you're going to pay him for two mugs of swill.

I think you're out of your gourd.  No offense.

[Armaddict]

TL;DR: Expect documentation soon. Follow the announcement now.

Yaaay.  Just don't make it as shoddy and non-addressing of the actual history of things as say...the 'rinth documentation.  Cuz that shit causes problems all over the place.

[Delirium]

On one hand, this is yet another thing to trip up new players.

On the other hand, 'big' was REALLY annoying....

As long as it's documented (and we K.I.S.S. on that documentation) I'm cool with it?

[Reiloth]

Please understand that no one is in trouble. We are not spanking fingers with rulers.

This is a habit that recently gained traction in Allanak. The increased usage generated conversation among the staff. We have been generally working toward emphasizing the unique Zanthan tenor of the game world and de-emphasizing those things that feel more real world European/Victorian.

Wouldn't this be more beneficial by introducing gender indicating nouns or honorifics to sirihish, rather than denouncing what are natural parts of the english language at this point? Just as with back-translated Cavilish to Sirihish or 'What's this word mean in Sirihish?', Mister for all we know is "Cafah" and Misses "Cafhi". The stigma here is the similarity between the gender indicating nouns and proper english, which is the language we all happen to use playing the game.

At no point have I ever considered that 'honorifics' are not or should not be applied to Commoners. This is new, if it is considered new documentation, not referential documentation. Otherwise, it's just an opinion. Many people can share this opinion (Say, several Staffers). But it doesn't dismiss the fact that this wasn't documented, isn't a help file, and Players can't read minds.

Obviously we all now know going forward not to use these words. But it does seem arbitrary when there is no original documentation to support it.

[Nergal]

I explained why there is no documentation yet in my last post.

[GithMaster]

What's wrong with "big"?

[Delirium]

I explained why there is no documentation yet in my last post.

If that was directed at me, I meant my statement in the future tense.

As long as it GETS documented, I should have said.

[Nergal]

Moderated a post due to self-identification of a PC.