Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Shoka Windrunner]

It makes no sense to play a gemmed anymore. Compared to rogues, gemmed are more disadvantaged than ever.

A bit belated, but can I ask how?

The only real difference this has made is mages are collectively either nerfed/buffed depending on your opinion (I personally think it's a buff, excluding full guild_whiran which >>> everything) and you can't instantly recognize a mage based on a lack of coded skills.

Being sort of devils advocate or something here:

Why be a gemmed, where people don't even have to guess if you are a gick?  You can be Amos the hunter now, totally look like a hunter do all hunter things but be a Mage too. I think that's what he's saying.  It is a lot easier to be a rogue now than it was and being gemmed can be stifling. Places you can't even try to go without being instantly hunted, whereas a rogue Mage may go years without anyone ever knowing.

I think there are places for both personally and you might have more freedom as a rogue but you still get interaction and protection as a gemmed. Nobody is surprised or tries to hunt you if you are are a gemmed because you are out in the sands surrounded by magickal light.  And there is a little extra protection maybe because don't break the Templars toys.  At least from residents of Nak.

[Lizzie]

It makes no sense to play a gemmed anymore. Compared to rogues, gemmed are more disadvantaged than ever.

A bit belated, but can I ask how?

The only real difference this has made is mages are collectively either nerfed/buffed depending on your opinion (I personally think it's a buff, excluding full guild_whiran which >>> everything) and you can't instantly recognize a mage based on a lack of coded skills.

Not speaking on Akaramu's behalf but I'll take a shot at this since I agree with the sentiment.

Consequences vs. benefits: Main guild is "main" and sub-guilds are only supposed to be supplementary. And yet the consequences of choosing a mage sub-guild are the same as when they were main guilds. They are still loathed, hated, feared. They still can't get official jobs anywhere except Oash IF they choose to "come out" of hiding and get gemmed. But now they lack the code to back up the consequences that USED to coincide with the power they wielded.

Which brings us to another disadvantage: rogue vs. gemmed, hired vs. not hired. If you are gemmed, your only job option is still Oash. But being a quarter-krathi with Oash is probably incredibly frustrating and boring. Your character can do only 1/4 of the things Oash might need a krathi for. So you will always be less valueable to them than when they were able to hire full mages. You know it, and the noble's player knows it. What's worse - they can't hire one of each type of krathi, plus one of each type of vivaduan, plus one of each type of rukkian, plus one of each type of whiran. That'd be 16 different mages, each with its own subguild. I doubt seriously that there exists 16 different *gemmed* mages each of their own subguild, first of all, and second, I doubt seriously that Oash would ever be allowed to have 16 employees on the payroll PLUS aides, because that's a huge chunk of the *active* player base.

If you would prefer to play your main guild, and get a job in a clan, you'd better NEVER get caught actually using any of your mage skills. That's a pretty significant disadvantage. What's the point of having a mage subguild if you can't ever actually use it?

No - if you want to play a mage subguild, and a mundane main guild, you have to NOT join any clan. That's even more limiting, than if you played a mage main guild. You're forced into a rogue position IF you wish to actually play your main mundane guild as the "coded primary aspect" of your character.

My rangers ARE rangers, for the most part. They range. They wander around, explore, trade, enjoy city and outdoors almost equally. Some clanned, some not clanned. My merchants ARE merchants, for the most part. They buy and sell, craft, hobnob, and negotiate, primarily. My mages WERE mages, even when I played them as secret mages. That was what made it so much fun. They were ALL "people first." But just like in real life, and in fiction books, and in movies, and on stage, people have vocations, careers, aptitudes for certain things. If Robin Hood turned out to have no ability to use a bow and arrow, the story wouldn't have been so interesting. Jack Sparrow wouldn't have been nearly as 3-dimensional as he is, if he lacked sleight-of-hand skills. He wasn't a sailor first, and quarter-pirate second. He's a person first, and full-on fantasy-pirate-guild with a subguild of "occasional good-guy". That's what makes him so much fun to watch in the movies.

This used to be the whole point of main guilds: to identify the primary "thing" your character "does" or "aspires to do." Mage is no longer an option. There are no more mages. There are merely rangers/warriors/assassins/burglars who can cast spells.

[Akaramu]

A bit belated, but can I ask how?

The only real difference this has made is mages are collectively either nerfed/buffed depending on your opinion (I personally think it's a buff, excluding full guild_whiran which >>> everything) and you can't instantly recognize a mage based on a lack of coded skills.

Did you read my earlier posts?

Also, Lizzie made a really good post above. +1

[Miradus]

There will be a day when Lizzie and Akaramu don't +1 each other back and forth in a thread, but it is not this day!

[Synthesis]

I keep reading a lot of speculation in this thread that is mostly the opposite of what I've experienced in game.  Gemmers are forming their own sparring cliques.  There are plenty of interaction opportunities if you want them. Templars are still using gemmers to do stuff.

How about you try ACTUALLY PLAYING a subguild gemmer before wildly speculating about what may or may not be happening, and crying about how things will never be the same?

[Is Friday]

Yeah, I instantly stored my gemmer when I came across the "sparring clique" in the Quarter. While some folks were into that, I wasn't so much with my PC.

[Synthesis]

Omg, if you don't want to spar--don't spar.

Problem solved--unless you expect power without effort.

[Miradus]

Yeah, I instantly stored my gemmer when I came across the "sparring clique" in the Quarter. While some folks were into that, I wasn't so much with my PC.

Why would you do that?

I've come across some pretty strange behavior in-game but I've never seen anything that made me want to insta-store.

[Is Friday]

Yeah, I instantly stored my gemmer when I came across the "sparring clique" in the Quarter. While some folks were into that, I wasn't so much with my PC.

Why would you do that?

I've come across some pretty strange behavior in-game but I've never seen anything that made me want to insta-store.

It was the "Why don't you want to come hang out with us and spar?" behavior that bothered me. I wasn't up for it.

I don't think there was necessarily anything wrong with it.

[Miradus]

I get it. And if the only social relationships you're going to have are with people you can tell already you're not going to enjoy hanging out with then it's better to go find something else to play for awhile.

Same reason I haven't wanted to join certain clans at various times. I was waiting for prominent members there who I didn't like to either quit or die. If you can tell it's not going to be a fun game experience for anyone involved then it's better to store and go try again. Am I right?

[Harmless]

Don't want to post too much to reveal who I have been playing lately, but I can just say with certainty that I can confirm the opinions of Lizzie, Akaramu, and bardlyone above; being a gemmed now offers very little rewards compared to what options a character loses once gemmed, with the exception of those vying for Oashi roles. It's a big deal, having gone through the ringer a few times after the changes it's pretty much a 100% verifiable fact that taking the gem is a stupid decision to take voluntarily.

The involuntary reveal is a cool outcome, but I think that those are very rare situations, where your character will cast a spell in order to change the outcome of their plots. Spells just rarely come in that handy really.

[RogueGunslinger]

Wut? The gem has the exact same benifits it has always had and always will have. You get to be a known mage and live and interact easily with both mundanes and mages. Until that changes taking the gem will always be a favorable option for those who want to play this sort of mage. Im not seeing how anything has changed as far as being gemmed goes.

[Harmless]

Wut? The gem has the exact same benifits it has always had and always will have. You get to be a known mage and live and interact easily with both mundanes and mages. Until that changes taking the gem will always be a favorable option for those who want to play this sort of mage. Im not seeing how anything has changed as far as being gemmed goes.

interact easily

hah. hah.

The so and so tressy woman looks at your gem then never says a single thing to you or emotes towards you again, and leaves the room.

The frothy-mouthed bynner looks at your gem, offers to pay you 50 coins to kank, then has a good laugh with his mates about his joke. The same joke gets old after exactly one telling so that's about it for him.

The merchant eyes you and decides that you're not worth the risk right now to befriend. He also doesn't know what to do WITH you or what you can actually do anyway, but he doesn't want to be known as curious for asking about it. He walks on.


etc etc.

[Miradus]

He said "easily".

He did not say any of the following:

satisfactorily
amusingly
favorably
pleasurably

I remember looking in a bag once. It was full of dull black gems.

All from people who got "interacted easily" with.

[RogueGunslinger]

Easier for a gemmed to interact than a known rogue, is the point. That gem allows you to come out without being hunted down. That is the purpose and it hasnt changed so i dont see how taking the gem is a 100% stupid decision.

[bardlyone]

Cost vs benefit. You used to have enough magick to make being KNOWN worth it.

You don't now, really. There is 0 reason for anyone who wants to continue to interact with people but still be able to actually codedly do stuff known. Because 1/11th or so of your skills are magick, not 10/11ths, so you really can quite easily avoid ever being known, which you almost always will do if you want to be a mage and still interact with people. Now without the limitation of 'get the gem or you don't get to use like 9/10ths of your skills unless you want to be a known rogue'. That was the big benefit of the gem before. Not the illusion of protection (when it is literally a target that causes people to hunt you for bounties), not the ability to easily interact (when anything more than negative, secret work, or wildly casual interactions can come with a price as high as your life depending on who got the templar role this round), and not the job opportunities, with the one clan that is the only clan that will hire you being one which has a low hiring cap and only hires 1 race. It was being able to use your skill tree without being hunted like a dog for being a rogue. And that is not the case now.

[Malken]

So, 22 pages later.. Have you guys come to a sort of consensus yet?

[RogueGunslinger]

Cost vs benefit. You used to have enough magick to make being KNOWN worth it.

You don't now, really. There is 0 reason for anyone who wants to continue to interact with people but still be able to actually codedly do stuff known. Because 1/11th or so of your skills are magick, not 10/11ths, so you really can quite easily avoid ever being known, which you almost always will do if you want to be a mage and still interact with people. Now without the limitation of 'get the gem or you don't get to use like 9/10ths of your skills unless you want to be a known rogue'. That was the big benefit of the gem before. Not the illusion of protection (when it is literally a target that causes people to hunt you for bounties), not the ability to easily interact (when anything more than negative, secret work, or wildly casual interactions can come with a price as high as your life depending on who got the templar role this round), and not the job opportunities, with the one clan that is the only clan that will hire you being one which has a low hiring cap and only hires 1 race. It was being able to use your skill tree without being hunted like a dog for being a rogue. And that is not the case now.

I disagree with the first sentence as it boils down to the same argument others are making that mages are weak now. They are not. Weaker in some ways but definitely not weak.

The rest I didn't understand. Im fairly certain you get 1/3rd the spells you used to have. Plus now a whole mundane class.

[Harmless]

He said "easily".

He did not say any of the following:

satisfactorily
amusingly
favorably
pleasurably

I remember looking in a bag once. It was full of dull black gems.

All from people who got "interacted easily" with.

You're right. Instead of having actual roleplayed interaction now you get >kill for interaction, so I see you agree with my main point. It's also hard to keep interacting with a character once it's dead.

[hopeandsorrow]

So, 22 pages later.. Have you guys come to a sort of consensus yet?

[RogueGunslinger]

He said "easily".

He did not say any of the following:

satisfactorily
amusingly
favorably
pleasurably

I remember looking in a bag once. It was full of dull black gems.

All from people who got "interacted easily" with.

You're right. Instead of having actual roleplayed interaction now you get >kill for interaction, so I see you agree with my main point. It's also hard to keep interacting with a character once it's dead.

If your gemmed die faster than your rogues you're doing something wrong. Or maybe you're doing it right. Either way being gemmed is safer than being a rogue in my experience, unless you never cast.

Being gemmed also offers you a safe place to skill-up to overcome those pkers.

[bardlyone]

@malken:
Yeah, the people who like combat more than wizarding think that the addition of a few spells to mundane subs is baller, the people who like wizarding more than combat think it sucks, and more than the plurality want the old guilds back in addition to the subs. Additionally, a good chunk of people seem to agree that without witch mainguilds, the gem is a laughably stupid idea.

That's what I've surmised from the thread, at least.

@rgs:
You can disagree with the first sentence or not, meh. The rest of it was breaking down the reasoning of the first sentence. Do not conflate my point with the one you're stating though. Because I didn't say they were weak. I said they don't have enough magick for it to be worth it to take the gem or be ostracized and hunted forever.

24. You make a ranger pc and you start with 24 skills. You make a ranger/any magicker, and it is 23/4 (or less), where 23 mundane/4 magick (again, or less). What is that, 1 off 28, so call it 28 skills instead of 27 to make this an easier illustration. You have a pc who is 1/7th magick. You start with a pc who has these 23 skills, and can open up another 15 through play. 23 and 15, that's 38. Now, mainguild mages, let's go with a vivaduan for the numbers, you could have opened up a total of 27 magick "skills" with a mainguild vivaduan, 1/3 of that? 9. So you come out with a pc who has 9 magick "skills" to 38 mundane skills, at the top end, if you say that a subguild magicker has 1/3 the spells of its mainguild equivalent. 9/38 = about 1/4 magick.

14. You make a vivaduan and you start with 14 skills. You pick, I don't know, let's go with hunter subguild for the parallel of vivaduan/hunter type vs hunter/vivaduan type. Hunter has 5 skills. Ever. So you start out with more magick "skills" than that, right out of the gate, even if you want to eschew all of the mundane skills (ie contact, barrier, cooking, etc) that a vivaduan stars with that aren't purely magick. And those open up into 27. 27 magick "skills" (or 36 skills altogether for the mainguild vivaduan, 27 of which wold be directly magickal in nature), so 5/27 if you go purely with magickal viv skills (1/5th mundane, 4/5ths magick), or 9 (the number of nonmagickal skills a vivaduan has) + 5 (hunter), is 14, 14/27, still 2/3rds of your skills will be magickal.

So do you think it is the same tradeoff to be able to use 1/5th of your skills as it is to be able to use 2/3rds of them? Because quite simply it is not. It is demonstrably not worth the being ostracized and ridiculed and alienated and subjugated for most people. A price that would have been much more worthwhile when you could use 1/3 or less of your skills without being hunted is pretty steep for a lot of people when you could just... never have to worry about any of that and still be able to use 4/5ths of your skills freely forever.

[Lutagar]

Notably, I don't think anyone's said they're happy to see the full guilds go.

[Delirium]

Goodness gracious.

If you play your skillset, you'll get bored with your skillset. No matter how many skills you have.

The trick is to play a character.

[bardlyone]

I don't believe anyone suggested anything different, Delirium. I was using data (raw numbers) to back the point made which was: when your character has a grab bag that is mostly magick, it is a big benefit to be gemmed, despite the being ostracized, versus when your character has a grab bag that is only marginally magick, it is a big detriment to be gemmed BECAUSE of being ostracized. That from a sheer numbers perspective, the formula which made being gemmed preferable with mainguilds is exactly reversed when you have the opposite numbers but the same restrictions.