Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Armaddict]

Remember back in the day when mages would seriously dominate all plot lines and be the go-to solution for any and all problems?

Is this still an issue?

I haven't noticed it, but I'm not exactly deeply entrenched in the same sort of plots that I used to.  I've taken a deep turn to personal-progression type plots that sometimes intersect with other things, rather than looking for the 'big things to do'.

Also, apparently some of those who were really comfortable in full-mage mode are not playing these new mages.  So maybe some who were really good with magick aren't as active in said roles anymore.

[BadSkeelz]

Remember back in the day when mages would seriously dominate all plot lines and be the go-to solution for any and all problems?

Is this still an issue?

Kinda, yeah. You don't see as many people spam casting their way into importance but when you do they're a problem. Fortunately there are mundane means if dealing with them. Well, two ways of dealing with them. Three if they're stupid enough to visit a place with crimcode.

[Is Friday]

Remember back in the day when mages would seriously dominate all plot lines and be the go-to solution for any and all problems?

Is this still an issue?

Kinda, yeah. You don't see as many people spam casting their way into importance but when you do they're a problem. Fortunately there are mundane means if dealing with them. Well, two ways of dealing with them. Three if they're stupid enough to visit a place with crimcode.

The aforementioned time period of mage insanity was 2005-2008. Pre-BadSkeelz.

[BadSkeelz]

Considering I had an All Points Bulletin issued to be on the lookout for "a tribal magicker, assumed buxom and dangerous" despite her never ever ever threatening my part of the world (or anyone for that matter),  I would argue the overly important magick era extended into the BadSkeelz era.

[Synthesis]

Remember back in the day when mages would seriously dominate all plot lines and be the go-to solution for any and all problems?

Is this still an issue?

I doubt the "go-to solution" aspect has been fully explored.

I mean, the best swiss-army-knife go-do-stuff type PC you could have now is a ranger/subclass-some-kind-of-magick.  Fully branching the magick subguild is trivial.  Fully branching a ranger is extremely difficult.  How many 60+ day grind-hardened PCs are there, at a time, ever?

I mean, you could max out a devastation krathi in about...10 days, if you really tried.  But you're still a glass cannon until the ranger primary catches up.

The smart play (for a rogue) is to be "sekrit magicker and never ever cast" until your primary guild is survivable on its own, then use the next 10 days to spamcast to synergy.  If a lot of folks are doing this, there may be substantial delays in perceived magicker power, because you're looking at about 25 days played (15 days on the primary, 10 days spamcasting up) minimum to get that real danger going.  Gemmed, you can probably skill up quite a bit faster if you can stomach the risk, since you can spamcast in the safety of whatever temple.  Some subguilds that get a "fuck you" spell out of chargen might be scary a little sooner, as well.

It's too bad the city is such a tiny-feeling place, though.  Just theorycrafting, but it seems like running any kind of city-based non-gemmed magicker would be an exercise in futility.  I can't really think of a combination that wouldn't get utterly shit on as soon as they manifested, even with a maxed primary guild, unless you ghosted everywhere with sneak/hide and never stopped to interact with anyone in a non-PvP (steal/kill) sort of way.  For the theorycraft, I'm going to assume that you'll end up permanently crim-flagged in Allanak before long...and the 'rinth just isn't dynamic enough or large enough to yield the safety that comes with anonymity.

Maybe one day I'll roll an "Allanak's Most Wanted" PC:  unclanned city-elf pickpocket/vivadu-corruption just to set some kind of personal hardmode record.

[Hauwke]

Dont steal my idea dude not even funny.

But seriously, I have tried a touched guild and it felt meh. To the point where I used the spells like twice and never bothered again. Havent tried anything else because karma but the spells I got if I had the motivation to use them would have been pretty cool given the nature of the character I had. Synergizing quite well indeed.

I believe that we should have the mainguilds returned, for higher karma. Maybe even chuck it around 5 or 6 karma.

But at the same time, I like where this has left the game world. No one person is that "Fuck you right in the face" guy unless its a half giant or mul or uberstat dwarf. (And even then that last one can be meh because rp) And no one can complain that magick is too powerful. In fact it means you can complain that mundanes are morepowerful as has been discussed to the point where that horse is thoroughly dead.

A well grounded magicker is entirely possible, and in my view always has been. And this change both helps and hinders that view in large ways. No longer can I hope to be that one magick master who could flick his hand and completely incinerate the shit out some guy. But on the flip side I get bone swordz now too so it evens it out and adds more options. Narrower options but more of them to be sure

#rantover

[Lutagar]

Anyone who thinks these changes are a nerf hasn't seen the new spell.

[Hauwke]

I still havent seen it! Gah!

Curse my recently found longlived-ness!

[Feco]

Dont steal my idea dude not even funny.

Seriously this is on my hard-mode list, too.  You guys are killing me.

[Jihelu]

>Not going assassin empowerment rukkian dwarf for the maximum keks.


They never heard the foot steps coming!

[Hauwke]

Yeah that would be insane Jihelu. Absolutely infuckingsane.

[nessalin]

Deleted a few posts that were off topic or had no clear point.  Critiques, suggestions, and feedback are welcome.  Begging the question and straw man arguments are not.

[Riev]

the subguilds haven't put damper on some of the ideas/roles I've had previously, at least thematically. But its a lot harder to pretend you're some "Chosen of Vivadu" when all you can do is spit water at people, and your buddy is doing this crazy shit ALSO from Vivadu's realm, that you'll never know.

Sometimes its not about 'power' and 'being the best', its about 'but I want to CHOOSE to sacrifice main-guild abilities for more utility and options in my magicker'. Especially since, you know, we can't choose an extended subguild if we choose a magick class. No full-Ruks with parry sounds good to me.

[Akaramu]

A couple more thoughts:

-The fact that mages can no longer choose any mundane subguild reduces the options available to them. For instance, they can't dabble in jewelcrafting / armoring without choosing merchant.

-Starting with a gem seems ultra ultra ultra hardmode now, almost unreasonably so, because the clans that allow for reasonably safe skilling of mundane skills (Byn etc) are closed to gemmed, and hunting out of Allanak as a newbie PC without any skills... well.

(edit to add: the risk of getting killed by witch haters adds to the other outdoors dangers for newbie gemmed).

[Riev]

-Starting with a gem seems ultra ultra ultra hardmode now, almost unreasonably so, because the clans that allow for reasonably safe skilling of mundane skills (Byn etc) are closed to gemmed, and hunting out of Allanak as a newbie PC without any skills... well.

Yes BUT you can always HIRE the Byn for an added cost. If they'll be willing to guard you/make sure you don't die. Probably costs more for being a witch, though.

Also, nothing says a gemmed HAS to live in 'nak, it just means they were 'caught' or 'submitted' to the Highlord's will. Could always live in a cave in the Red Desert for all anyone cares.

[Synthesis]

A couple more thoughts:

-The fact that mages can no longer choose any mundane subguild reduces the options available to them. For instance, they can't dabble in jewelcrafting / armoring without choosing merchant.

-Starting with a gem seems ultra ultra ultra hardmode now, almost unreasonably so, because the clans that allow for reasonably safe skilling of mundane skills (Byn etc) are closed to gemmed, and hunting out of Allanak as a newbie PC without any skills... well.

(edit to add: the risk of getting killed by witch haters adds to the other outdoors dangers for newbie gemmed).

There is a perfectly reasonable range of critter difficulties available around Allanak, and skilling up on them remains much, much faster than the Byn.  My last gemmer (who started gemmed) branched advanced weapons at...12 days played, I think.

Did I almost die a few times during the noob phase? Hell, yes.  But that's more because scrab stats interact in a WILDLY unpredictable manner with PC combat skills, if you don't have parry or shield use to even the odds.  Even with parry and shield use--as I've said before--when I played Giuseppe way back in the day, I almost got killed by a scrab as a 60-day warrior because it rolled amazing stats and double-neck-shotted me.

[Akaramu]

There is a perfectly reasonable range of critter difficulties available around Allanak, and skilling up on them remains much, much faster than the Byn.  My last gemmer (who started gemmed) branched advanced weapons at...12 days played, I think.

You know the code, the game, and the critters inside out, though. Not everyone is a pro player like you.

And as I stated earlier in the thread, 'kill stuff to raise skillz' is a hack & slash thing. Not everyone wants to raise skillz by killing stuff (especially not with a character who doesn't have a dedicated hunter mindset). Some of us have no interest in that type of gameplay.

[Synthesis]

There is a perfectly reasonable range of critter difficulties available around Allanak, and skilling up on them remains much, much faster than the Byn.  My last gemmer (who started gemmed) branched advanced weapons at...12 days played, I think.

You know the code, the game, and the critters inside out, though. Not everyone is a pro player like you.

And as I stated earlier in the thread, 'kill stuff to raise skillz' is a hack & slash thing. Not everyone wants to raise skillz by killing stuff (especially not with a character who doesn't have a dedicated hunter mindset). Some of us have no interest in that type of gameplay.

The progression is not complicated.  It is boring--I'll grant you that.

There are other gemmed PCs around to spar with, if you want to take that risk and roll with it.

Or you can join Oash and spar.

You can't have everything.

[Dar]

This is a hypothetical flight of fancy really. But what would you guys think if it was possible to play a full elementalist, but they would ONLY be possible to start off as a gemmed. Hedge wizards on the periphery versus an entire school/doctrine/temple/breeding program of elementalism within the city.  They would require to have grown up within the Temple and so on.

[lostinspace]

This is a hypothetical flight of fancy really. But what would you guys think if it was possible to play a full elementalist, but they would ONLY be possible to start off as a gemmed. Hedge wizards on the periphery versus an entire school/doctrine/temple/breeding program of elementalism within the city.  They would require to have grown up within the Temple and so on.

Like the magical equivalent of a Mul, raised in captivity and all that? I'd be super cool with that.

[Synthesis]

This is a hypothetical flight of fancy really. But what would you guys think if it was possible to play a full elementalist, but they would ONLY be possible to start off as a gemmed. Hedge wizards on the periphery versus an entire school/doctrine/temple/breeding program of elementalism within the city.  They would require to have grown up within the Temple and so on.

That would ignore several tribal concepts where particular sorts of magick are not only tolerated, but possibly revered.

There's no reason Allanak would have more "pure" magickers than say, the Akei'ta Var (are they even still open?) or the Sun Runners, unless those tribal docs have changed drastically since I played one.

[Akaramu]

Joining Oash does not guarantee a chance to spar across all timezones. Joining the Byn does. Or maybe the AoD.

We already discussed 'sparring without being part of those clans' before and elsewhere. Let's let that dead horse rest.

Just because something is possible in theory doesn't mean it isn't ultra ultra ultra hardmode for a lot of players, and potentially very frustrating.

[Riev]

Starting with a gem does seem like it would be more difficult now. I feel like we went on a bit of a shift from "You have 5 karma and can play a badass firemage now, because we trust you with the power and potential of the skillset" to "You have 5 karma, and can play a badass firemage now, because we think you're mature enough to understand you aren't going to get half of what you expect out of the skillset"

[Synthesis]

Joining Oash does not guarantee a chance to spar across all timezones. Joining the Byn does. Or maybe the AoD.

We already discussed 'sparring without being part of those clans' before and elsewhere. Let's let that dead horse rest.

Find another gemmer and spar with them, then.

Offpeak problems are not uniquely gemmer problems.

If you can't make it work, play something else, or roll a sekret magicker teenager and spar it up in the Byn for a few years until you manifest at adulthood.

There's not going to be a Gemmer Sparring Academy until the in-character lore shifts dramatically to accommodate the code fact that mages are no longer useful simply as mages anymore.

Starting with a gem does seem like it would be more difficult now. I feel like we went on a bit of a shift from "You have 5 karma and can play a badass firemage now, because we trust you with the power and potential of the skillset" to "You have 5 karma, and can play a badass firemage now, because we think you're mature enough to understand you aren't going to get half of what you expect out of the skillset"

It's actually a lot easier, and a lot more fun to start with a gem, now.  You can go out and DO SHIT from day 0.  You suffer similar risk as every other indie wasteland scavenger, with a little extra from the "instant hate," and a little less due to the "magick power-ups."

Sure, if you roll something utterly retarded like...a gemmed burglar/whira-tempest, you're going to have an extremely difficult time finding a niche, but a ranger/anything or warrior/most things is going to, out-of-the-box, be much more fun to play than any previous gemmed mage, because you don't have to spend the first 10 days branching dem spells.  You can just go out and do regular PC shit.

If you can't figure out how to survive in the desert wasteland, as a player...like...how many accommodations do you believe you deserve?  Even as a very experienced player, even with old-ish PCs, I ROUTINELY ALMOST DIE.  Just the other day I was reel-locked at 4hp praying to god almighty that my parry checks pass WITH A 20-DAY WARRIOR.  I don't cry about it being too tough, or hard, or whatever.  I fucking deal with it, bruh.  The game doesn't owe you a long-lived PC.  You have to scratch and scrape and claw and wrestle and just keep hoping that your card doesn't get pulled.  That's the game.

[Dar]

This is a hypothetical flight of fancy really. But what would you guys think if it was possible to play a full elementalist, but they would ONLY be possible to start off as a gemmed. Hedge wizards on the periphery versus an entire school/doctrine/temple/breeding program of elementalism within the city.  They would require to have grown up within the Temple and so on.

That would ignore several tribal concepts where particular sorts of magick are not only tolerated, but possibly revered.

There's no reason Allanak would have more "pure" magickers than say, the Akei'ta Var (are they even still open?) or the Sun Runners, unless those tribal docs have changed drastically since I played one.

It depends on how flexible you mean to be in ones mental acrobatics.

The elemental Temples are overseen by Templars and often have Oash influence. Both institutions have massive libraries, knowledge of sorcery, and require elementalism for maintaining the city infrastructure. The Temples receive gemmed from a pool of  479900 people, if you dont include the Muls from whom the magick was bred out of.  That, if I understand correctly, is an assumed rough population of Allanak. 

Some Tribes dont even account for 10k and while they revere those touched by a specific element. All knowledge is oral and passed from mentor to apprentice. With tidbits of knowledge and genetic material lost due to deaths. Those touched by an element are still expected to pull their own weight and unless extraordinary talented, need to know how to skin game, feed a mewling child, and fix a hole in their socks. While Elementalists in the city can potentially live without ever needing to do that, provided they do something that earns them the coin, or have Temples provide for them.