Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Lizzie]

My thoughts on what I'd like to see, aren't as simple as your suggestions Wizturbo.

1. I agree with the people who are against magicks as main guilds, that sometimes, mage players just really screw things up for themselves and everyone else by their abuse of the karma. Punishment after the fact doesn't prevent the problem from occurring in the first place.

2. I agree that there needs to be more checks and balances than previously, before the guilds were split.

3. I don't feel that splitting the guilds was the right move, at all. I am against the current split guilds. I don't feel that mundane main guilds should ALSO get magicks, and I also feel that magicks should be restored to main guilds.

4. I ALSO feel that the higher karma options should be special-app only, even if you have the karma for it. In fact, I do NOT feel that people who don't have the karma for it, should be allowed to special app "three over" their current karma level. If you don't have 8 karma, you can't play a sorcerer, period. If you don't have 5 karma, you can't play a whiran. The only thing I'd be comfortable with - would be a one-up option. If you have 5 karma, and want to play a 6-karma option, you can with a special app. BUT...

4a. If you choose to play a 6-karma option with only 5 karma and it's approved, then you *cannot* play special apps again until you have played at or under your karma level for your next 2 PCs, or 1 RL year, whichever is longer. That would also prevent players from just rolling up a disposable and jumping off the shield wall to "use up" the requirement quicker.

Nilaz should be returned, as a full-on guild, and require a special app plus the karma to play it.

ANY Of the main elemental guilds should be available for the staff to offer for "special" sponsored roles. Unlike most of the playerbase, I am 100% in favor of favoritism. The staff -should- be playing favorites with their most valued roleplayers. It keeps them having fun, and in turn, they keep giving fun to the rest of the playerbase. The MVPs are the ones who cook up the most interesting plotlines and keeping the rest of the players the most entertained. Whoever those people are from one day to the next SHOULD be favored and SHOULD be offered the most choice roles, and get the animations, and get the spiffy gem-encrusted dildos.

[wizturbo]

Karma is the only 'favoritism' I think should be employed in Armageddon, and Karma has been structured in a way now to try and offer it as objectively as possible.  Everyone should be treated the same within their karma levels.  I don't think it's fair for only "the chosen ones" to get to play full elementalists, and that's coming from someone who has the karma to play all of them.

I wouldn't necessarily be against altering the +3 karma rule for magick users.  That's fine by me.  Raising the bar is fine, letting people slip under the bar because they're favorites is not.

I guess the only other form of favoritism I'm okay with is who gets sponsored roles, but that's because it's essentially a job application.  If one staff member is looking for a certain type of player to fill their role, I think it's reasonable to give them that leeway in the selection process.

Honestly, this is for the best for the staff too.  Having a million players all trying to kiss their ass every waking moment to try and become a "favorite" would be more detrimental to the game than one might think at first glance.

[Lizzie]

Right - I was referring specifically to sponsored roles with regards to my thoughts about favoritism.

In other words - people who have karma can apply as usual (or with special app as I outlined).

However.

If the staff needed to create and fill a specific role - perhaps there are no current sorcerers and they want to have one or two in the game at all times...or perhaps the elemental quarter has quite a few newer players playing, who could really use a hand in learning how to "be a person first" and a gemmed mage second - so they want to create a role for a "veteran" elementalist who has virtually lived in the quarter for awhile and knows their way around magicks in general, their own mage list in particular.

rather than putting out an ad for a special role (which would of COURSE call attention to the fact that these PCs will soon exist and it's time to roleplay a sudden renewed interest in finding sorcerers)...

they'd send an e-mail to a couple of players who they already know can be trusted to a) fill the role and b) make it interesting for everyone else.

Let them know a special role will soon be available, and would they be interested in learning more. If so, send them a general outline of the character. If not, no harm done, no info was sent.

[Harmless]

Lizzie, I don't see how a 6 and 8 karma player really differ, in the scheme of things. Both are clearly well-trusted players, in the top 5% of players or better (I remember a while back staff released what % of players were in those karma categories, it becomes 1% or so towards the top). I think they deserve roughly the same options. I like the 3+ karma rule just fine.

Karma mainguilds prohibited karma subguilds even before mage mainguilds were removed. Balance.

I read that three times, and I didn't understand. 

Can you give me like an example?  Maybe it's cause I just got out of the shower and realized how tired I am.   

okay, in release notes thread on staff annoucements:

February 16th, 2016

-When creating a character, players can no longer select both a karma guild AND a karma subguild.
-When creating a character, players can no longer combine Mul/Half-Giant with a magicker subguild.  Error message will indicate the need to file a special application.
-Formatting cleanup on the subguild selection menu of character creation.

Basically, for a while (exactly 1 month before they removed mainguild magickers entirely), it was the case that if you were a karma required main guild, for example a Rukkian, you are no longer allowed to make a character with an extended subguild, like Protector.

They put this change in for 1 month, then removed magickers fully in March 2016. In my opinion, they didn't give this setup enough time to prove itself as a way of balancing things out. After all, only so many PCs were made in that month; the old mainguild magickers were all still in game, so the rule never got used at all.

The benefit of that rule that existed for exactly 1 month before we had mainguild magickers taken away from us entirely, is for game balance. Being unable to select a karma-required extended subguild (mundane) as a magicker mainguild meant certain things, like NEVER having access to parry (protector subguild), disarm (aggressor), mastercrafting (key to blending in to mundane society), master outdoorsman (perfect setup to survive off the wilds). It's limiting, making such easy lifestyles with a good set of survival skills unreachable for full mages, who after all are obsessed/very attuned to their element, which SHOULD have consequences on what they do and how they live. In other words, you're fully invested in magick, and you've become reliant on it.

I would really like for us to go back to Febuary 2016 when for a little while we still had access to mainguild magickers but just couldn't get a sweet subguild to match.

[Armaddict]

I'll trade you guys support for full mages back in exchange for no skills showing again.   

EDIT:  Comment was totally tongue in cheek in demonstration of other changes that happened that got rollbacks called for that never arrived.  Plz no derail moar.

[Jihelu]

I'll trade you guys support for full mages back in exchange for no skills showing again.   

And that sums up my feelings about that.

[MeTekillot]

I don't play very much anymore because of the gradual push for less magick.

[Cind]

A ranger/nilazi mul special application, huh? *drools* I'd jump for joy if one makes it into the game.

[Jihelu]

A ranger/nilazi mul special application, huh? *drools* I'd jump for joy if one makes it into the game.

Muls had the magick bred out of them though.

....
ANTI MAGICK ON THE OTHER HAND
*Dramatic plot twist*

[Lizzie]

I'll trade you guys support for full mages back in exchange for no skills showing again.   

Make that the removal of skill levels/ranks instead, and you got a deal.
DOWN WITH JOURNEYMAN!

[Hauwke]

I think the removal of skill ranks would only encourage the grind with the way folks are these days.

[bardlyone]

I just think it's funny that you can already turn this off where you can't see it, but for the people who don't want to see it, that's not good enough, because other people can see theirs. Which means it's not about seeing it or not seeing it, not really. You don't want to see it, but only if other people 'also' can't see it, because god forbid those people have any imagined advantage. I.... just don't get that. If you don't want to see it, don't look. It is -literally- that simple. It's a choice you can already make.

[Armaddict]

Do not derail, it was a jesting comment about big changes that people often want to rollback.  Your thought on it, bardlyone, is addressed in another thread.  It's a -joke-, peeps.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Do not derail, it was a jesting comment about big changes that people often want to rollback.  Your thought on it, bardlyone, is addressed in another thread.  It's a -joke-, peeps.

I'd almost just be happy if Armaddict had all subguild options removed except magick ones.      Just kidding man.

[Armaddict]

And then I was sad. 

[Cind]

What if we had two or four 'minor sorcerer' subguild options added that were relatively lower karma?

Each one would have a theme of some kind like the big boy subguilds do. You'd start with two spells, you'd be able to get two more (and component crafting too probably) or less than that. Start with one, get one more, possibly from a random selection of two or three, that has a similar usage theme to your first, but the starter spell is the same.

But they'd be the little spells, right? No hordes of magick slaves, no incredible magick objects, whatever. These are sorcerer spells a normal person was taught in order to save themselves, save someone else, get revenge, etc. Like self-sustenance and things like that, some minor protection in order to flee a fight, not 'mon un fireball destroy earth.'

What karma level do you think these kinds of people would have? You don't really want half the town walking around being a future sorcerer. But I would really like to see more people able to go for a sorcerer that knew a single spell in order to keep from starving to death, choosing life over the ability to live in the city.

[BadSkeelz]

First, we already have "minor sorcerers" in the form of the current subguilds. I was opposed to them being lowered in karma (as was the supposed original plan) and I still am. They're priced about right.

Second, as much as I say "we should treat all magickers reasonably regardless of how powerful we OOCly need them to believe," I think introducing weaker sorcerers will dilute the playerbase's fear and respect of them. The playerbase will only consistently fear things that have are a tangible threat to them. They do not respond well to virtual threats, and they will not respond well to PCs that they think are "weak." Already in game I see magick being trivialized because it's not quite the coded terror it was. This is especially true for Rogues and Gemmed, who are the mostly commonly judged on their coded danger.


As an extrapolation from my last point, I would be kind of OK with full guild Mages IF they were restricted to tribal roles, in the current tribes. It would help play up the civilization vs barbarism/ normal vs other themes and give the (always small) tribes a real edge over city counterparts. Something to explain why they don't get kicked around more than they do.

[Jihelu]

First, we already have "minor sorcerers" in the form of the current subguilds. I was opposed to them being lowered in karma (as was the supposed original plan) and I still am. They're priced about right.

Second, as much as I say "we should treat all magickers reasonably regardless of how powerful we OOCly need them to believe," I think introducing weaker sorcerers will dilute the playerbase's fear and respect of them. The playerbase will only consistently fear things that have are a tangible threat to them. They do not respond well to virtual threats, and they will not respond well to PCs that they think are "weak." Already in game I see magick being trivialized because it's not quite the coded terror it was. This is especially true for Rogues and Gemmed, who are the mostly commonly judged on their coded danger.


As an extrapolation from my last point, I would be kind of OK with full guild Mages IF they were restricted to tribal roles, in the current tribes. It would help play up the civilization vs barbarism/ normal vs other themes and give the (always small) tribes a real edge over city counterparts. Something to explain why they don't get kicked around more than they do.

I think I share your same opinions on the matter but I do think sorcerer subguilds, in general, should be a bit lower in karma. Atleast to nilazi levels of 6 or so.
High enough that the players playing them should be scary/secretive enough and low enough to be reachable.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, because people totally never tried PKing full-guild mages they knew were noobs. 

#guiltyascharged

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, because people totally never tried PKing full-guild mages they knew were noobs. 

#guiltyascharged

People will try and PK anything in noob form if they're dangerous. But fully-skilled up subguild sorcerers are not looked at with the same sense of dread as a fully-skilled up, full Guild sorcerer. One that has even less spells is going to get even less respect.

[BadSkeelz]

Not to say that's a bad thing. I would much rather be faced with (And inclinded to log in to) an "exceptionally lethal but not insurmountable challenge" than "suicide mission RPT against Lord Cuddlepuddle's Hogwarts."

[Synthesis]

Meh, I feel like you're getting way too metagamey on that opinion, but I'm not going to contribute to a derail about it.

[wizturbo]

Sorcery doesn't work like that.  You don't just learn one spell and never have the capacity to learn another.  That's why sorcery is so scary.  If you learn to gather mana, you are capable in theory of becoming the next Sorcerer-King.  Sure we are OOCly limiting sorcerers to only a portion of spells for balance reasons...but the idea of a more minor sorc breaks the setting in my eyes.

As for karma levels, sorcerers are the most codedly powerful unclanned PCs available for play.  They should be max karma without spec apps, otherwise what's the point of having karma go to that level?

[nessalin]

Removed some derails and random posts.

[Jingo]

Remember back in the day when mages would seriously dominate all plot lines and be the go-to solution for any and all problems?

Is this still an issue?