Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Gaare]

Make some of them 8 karma if you feel it's necessary, but pretty please bring them back.

This is a very nice idea. Before the change, every mage you met had a limited range of skills but powerful spells. Now, every mage has a class, but also limited number of spells.

There can (and maybe ICly should) be people whom are very talented with elemental magick. Bringing back old classes but at much higher karma level can be very fun and lead to interesting results.

[Akaramu]

I think full karma elementalists are balanced as they were for years by being basically just that; a magic battery with a subguild. With the subguilds we have these days, they're solid, in my opinion.

A magicker/gladiator is basically a mini warrior, but you can be a warrior/magicker that is an absolutely different playstyle.

(...)

THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS

But... full guild elementalists aren't an option anymore 

[Harmless]

this is correct, possibilities no longer endless. They have been decreased by a factor of 2^7, i.e. divided by 128.

Also, 8 karma is too high of a minimum cutoff for some of the elementalists. At least a few options should be more like 6 karma give or take. Thanks to special apps allowing that 3 karma of wiggle room.


my math is probably wrong

[boog]

Personally, I think being a magicker is a WHOLE LOT MORE FUN now, which is really all that matters, quite frankly.

I haven't had a chance to play a subguild mage yet, but this pretty much sums up my thoughts.

Mine too.

[Dresan]

Magicker sub-guilds is one of those things that so far seems to work better on paper. While I'm hoping somethings might have changed, i'm going to lead towards they haven't.

1. Magick code was not designed around mundanes.

In short you will never corner a ranger and suddenly have them throw on a spell. Those coded restrictions on spells were designed perfectly for full magickers but less so as sub-guilds.

2. Spell effects last a long time and plenty of people can either see or detect it.

Since there is no way to dispel or stop spells that last a while, you can find yourself isolated a lot or just not using your abilities at all.   This is one of those things that has always been true, but perhaps because of the times changing, I feel this hurts more than before. Instead of doing something social, the person is isolated. I think this hurts the game more than helps.

3. Magick is not that scary anymore.

The game is small, and people are still twinks and talk a lot OOCly. Unless you aren't using your abilities at all, expect someone to find you, and then have many people in the game know too. People will find your mind and accuse you of being that karthi you fireballed their friend last week, or just suddenly accuse you of being a magicker despite having done no magick. Yes word will spread like wildfire that you are a magicker, and thus weaker than a warrior/slipknife. Also because people are low level twinkies they will try to kill you,even if they know you are a scary magicker. They will try to kill you even if that means getting you to go into their apartment, because they know OOCly magickers are not scary, and that killing people in their apartment has no consequences.

Anyways despite this I really like the idea of magick sub-guilds and I still  think it was the right move, but it does needs some small design changes to balance it out with the overall game. Also some of the ruk/vivadu sub-guilds should probably be moved to three karma.

[boog]

I honestly think every Ruk and Viv aspect should get a create spell. But beyond that, I think they're all alright. Maybe a few spells could be tweaked, but, I like that this change allows for less overtly powerful, magickal beings.

[Harmless]

I honestly think every Ruk and Viv aspect should get a create spell. But beyond that, I think they're all alright. Maybe a few spells could be tweaked, but, I like that this change allows for less overtly powerful, magickal beings.

not having creation spells was a huge reason why I haven't reached for any of those subguilds. I hope I don't ever have to, after having played that tier of magickers (ruk/viv) in their mainguild form, what they've been changed to is so disappointing to me.

[Cind]

I feel like one of the full viv aspects should be one karma, and one of the ruk 2 karma aspects should be three. I'm thinking one of the spells you start with in a krathi touch should be modified, as was the case for the water touched, who originally started with a spell that seems above their pay grade for just starting out. That has been fixed though.

If drovians come back as subguilds, I think their ability to be impossible spies should be high karma.

Without drovians and nilazi, it feels as though one of the most routine large plots in the game is gone. Occasionally, some nilazi, sorcerer or otherwise powerful rogue, but rather often a nilazi, would gather strength and attack the Arm or some other organization, but often the Arm, from their fortress of solitude somewhere, which might be in Storm because main guild witch.

I know such plots are still possible and have happened in the last year but that's a huge amount of effort and a month and a half of casting in order to inevitably die to the Arm and have your head piked. I mean, sure, its load of fun until then--- but I'm one of those people who want some slim chance at survival, and this seems like a waste of a special app when you can just go play a normal raider.

[Reiloth]

I've honestly been so relieved not having Drovians in game. They were game-breakingly OP when it came to discovering information wholesale. There was basically no risk involved for them, and they became the ultimate Spymaster.

The game seems much more mysterious and dangerous now without them in it, and without that information or knowledge being so easily obtained. At least IMHO.

#fuckdrovians

[Akaramu]

Psionicists are the better spies, and still ingame 

I really, really hope they don't get removed too. Playing one was a very rare opportunity for me to actually know about the fun stuff that was going on. I don't prefer a setting where everything is behind the scenes all the time. It's why I didn't enjoy playing in Tuluk.

Also, risk of discovery = more suspense = more fun.

[Reiloth]

Psionicists are the better spies, and still ingame 

I really, really hope they don't get removed too. Playing one was a very rare opportunity for me to actually know about the fun stuff that was going on. I don't prefer a setting where everything is behind the scenes all the time. It's why I didn't enjoy playing in Tuluk.

Also, risk of discovery = more suspense = more fun.

Yeah, Psi's are still in game, but they also have a very real risk of being discovered when they use 90% of their abilities. Drovians could literally just fart around in the Ethereal Plane with little to no danger 100% of the time, and slip to any location they wanted, and learn anything they wanted from any conversation. It was pretty dumb. I'm glad they're gone.

[Akaramu]

My one Drovian never reached that point, so I wouldn't know, but I suppose you're right. Maybe Drovians could make a comeback with a small nerf to that one spell... something that makes its use about as risky as the use of psi skills is?

[Miradus]

Also, risk of discovery = more suspense = more fun.

Agreed. It's why I like to plot in public at a private table somewhere instead of just using Way back and forth. Let's give those ledge listening rangers a chance to get in on the action.

[Malken]

My one Drovian never reached that point, so I wouldn't know, but I suppose you're right. Maybe Drovians could make a comeback with a small nerf to that one spell... something that makes its use about as risky as the use of psi skills is?

I've played a crazy amount of drovians and I agree that it's quite very easy to reach the point where you become the best spy in the game. Especially if you are a gemmed drovian and can cast spell and [redacted] from the safety of your temple. Even the stuff that you needed for certain spells were easily available in the city itself.

My very few psionicists on the opposite were freakin' disasters because no matter how cautious I was I always ended up being discovered in the lamest of ways ;p (kudos to those who can play psis for a very long time!)

[Jingo]

Psi Intercept 2017

[TheWanderer]

Their biggest issue was basically being state-sponsored by the Templarate and Oash. You then felt handicapped because those two entities (and whoever else decided mingling with magick was cool) had the best spies in the game. #storiesofaborsail

The removal of the class was easily my favorite part of the subguild changes.

[boog]

My one Drovian never reached that point, so I wouldn't know, but I suppose you're right. Maybe Drovians could make a comeback with a small nerf to that one spell... something that makes its use about as risky as the use of psi skills is?

I've played a crazy amount of drovians and I agree that it's quite very easy to reach the point where you become the best spy in the game. Especially if you are a gemmed drovian and can cast spell and [redacted] from the safety of your temple. Even the stuff that you needed for certain spells were easily available in the city itself.

My very few psionicists on the opposite were freakin' disasters because no matter how cautious I was I always ended up being discovered in the lamest of ways ;p (kudos to those who can play psis for a very long time!)

I could never imagine you playing a psi. I love you, Malken, and you play a damn fine Tuluki zealot (and other things!), but holy shit. I could just see you taking all of my character's quiet things and shouting them at them, just because.

[KankWhisperer]

Drovians are terrible and anyone who plays a drovian is a terrible person.

[Fathi]

As someone who played a Borsail spymaster for a few years who was indirectly involved in the death of a few Drovians, there were some equalisers. Namely murder and copious mundane eyeballs on the city.

But in all seriousness, I miss the Drov/Elk/Nilaz guilds for thematic reasons a lot. However, if their skillsets have been distributed to sorcerers that's hunky dory with me. I mostly miss the thematic idea of Nilaz being a sort of anti-element or a natural balance to elemental power. That from a lore perspective was something I always enjoyed exploring. However, I can also see from a "we are playing a game" perspective why staff made the changes they did, and overall I agree with them.

What matters to me is that staff have openly tweaked this stuff since originally announcing it, as per a couple updates I've seen on the weekly update. If you feel like something is particularly broken or under or overpowered, I'd suggest sending them a request, as they have seemed pretty receptive to feedback about this stuff. Of course requesting doesn't guarantee anything, but unless a staffer corrects me, I've been told in the past that they appreciate getting reports on the ground every now and again from players about how game change stuff is working out.

[nauta]

As someone who played a Borsail spymaster for a few years who was indirectly involved in the death of a few Drovians, there were some equalisers. Namely murder and copious mundane eyeballs on the city.

Hehe, I remember two summers back when for some really weird reason the Quarter was populated with something like eight Drovians at once.  The running joke was that the Drovians had better move fast and gain a sponsor, because everyone wanted to kill them.  (I think it was back to the normal two or three after about two weeks, come to think of it.)

The thing about Drovians was that, unlike other magickers where you had to actually RP getting cast on / interacting with them casting, you could hire a Drovian and not have to deal with the icky bit of magick.  Hence, they were more employable than pretty much any other elementalist save Whirans perhaps.

[Feco]

I'm glad a certain Drovian spell is gone.  It was too easy.

I'm not glad Drovians are gone.  I think Drov and Nilaz elementalist were interesting and unique additions to the game, and I really wish they were still around.  I think a lot of Drovian spells would make really, really neat subguild spells.

This is also true of Elkros, but to a lesser extent.

[Malken]

My one Drovian never reached that point, so I wouldn't know, but I suppose you're right. Maybe Drovians could make a comeback with a small nerf to that one spell... something that makes its use about as risky as the use of psi skills is?

I've played a crazy amount of drovians and I agree that it's quite very easy to reach the point where you become the best spy in the game. Especially if you are a gemmed drovian and can cast spell and [redacted] from the safety of your temple. Even the stuff that you needed for certain spells were easily available in the city itself.

My very few psionicists on the opposite were freakin' disasters because no matter how cautious I was I always ended up being discovered in the lamest of ways ;p (kudos to those who can play psis for a very long time!)

I could never imagine you playing a psi. I love you, Malken, and you play a damn fine Tuluki zealot (and other things!), but holy shit. I could just see you taking all of my character's quiet things and shouting them at them, just because.

hence the ending in disastrous ways disclaim 

[WarriorPoet]

Everyone is a hidden magicker now.

[Akaramu]

Everyone is a hidden magicker now.

Yup. My concern exactly.

[boog]

I dunno. I've seen some cool things as a result of this! It's not really a bad thing. Hidden magickers is neat, because now people can't guild sniff so well.

"You don't do anything right or well, Talia. What the fuck? Are you a gick or something?"

(Well, actually...)