Reactions to the Witch Subguilds

[Cind]

Perhaps have people limited in apping secret magickers and unmanifested magickers, in those two categories. At chargen you'd have to choose one of the three in an appropriate room, and limit the first two somehow? Perhaps in the number of each you could do every year.

I feel like one-third of the humans I interact with in the game are breeds who look completely human. Breeds are a small minority, not a large one, in the population and the reason I have accepted the fact that 80% of the people in the game are in the 1% is because it allows for all of us to get in on some plot. I'm not blaming the breed players; this is just something that happens because people get inspired, that is kind of weird when looked at from the outside, and doesn't lose its weirdness over time.

Now it feels like a significant number of pcs these days are unmanifested witches waiting to skill up before the big reveal. I remember one dwarf, a salter who wanted into the Byn and who would actually talk to my witch without acting disgusted, He talked to me casually, and requested something like supplies from me for payment, I don't remember. I was a weaponscrafter back then so that was probably what he wanted. We saw each other in the Gaj a few more times over the next three RL days and he was finally ready after much salting to enter the Byn. I was a water witch back then, in the days of main guild witches. He wayed me and begged me for help, and said he was in the vivaduan plaza.

I went there and he and me talked for a short while, him mostly hysterical and me mostly confused, and then his left arm turned to granite. He was a newly manifested rukkian, and his emotions over it were causing cantrips.

It was a complete, and total wtf moment, of player and pc disbelief, that I feel is no longer available in the game. I'm just wondering if there isn't something that can be done about it. However, if I have to lose those moments so that more people can play what they like and are responsible with I'm good with that too.

[Synthesis]

How is any of that scenario lost to the game?

You can still be an unmanifested magicker and freak out when you manifest.  You can still do cantrips.

Who gives a rat's ass whether you can kill a scrab before vs. after you manifest?  Is that really so important to you that it warrants a rant?  I mean...honestly.  I feel like some of the "pro RPer" comments here are circling around to coming perilously close to "twink RPer" comments.

I get it, though.  The idea, before, was that if you wanted to be unmanifested, you had to incur SIGNIFICANT RISK to your PC by being completely and utterly useless, and having to flee in total panic from everything larger than a kankfly...so you got a little OOC cred for doing that.  Like, hey, you get bonus cool points for playing your PC at a serious disadvantage.  Now the only disadvantage is that you forego a) some crafting skills, b) some stealth skills, or c) some combat skills (because you can't have a 1337 subclass, if your sekrit subclass is magick).  Obviously, this is significantly less of a disadvantage, because most primary guilds are fairly robust.  But this has absolutely nothing to do with RP quality.

As far as quantity of magickers is concerned...meh.  I feel like speculating about that is pointless without Staff disclosing numbers.  Being a magicker is still a fairly iso role, no matter how you slice it, so they'll probably remain mainly popular with the killer/explorer Bartle types.

I don't know if the quasi-elements were permanently removed, or whether they were removed to game-test the subguild system.  I hope it's the latter, and once Staff determine that the subguild system works fine, they'll implement the quasi-elemental subguilds.

[Raptor_Dan]

All of it!

100% agreement.

[Akaramu]

How is any of that scenario lost to the game?

You can still be an unmanifested magicker and freak out when you manifest.  You can still do cantrips.

Who gives a rat's ass whether you can kill a scrab before vs. after you manifest?  Is that really so important to you that it warrants a rant?  I mean...honestly.  I feel like some of the "pro RPer" comments here are circling around to coming perilously close to "twink RPer" comments.

It's just that when a third of the playerbase (hypothetical scenario) is unmanifested magickers, the 'freakout' moment becomes not freaky anymore. You're freaked out the first two times it happens to friends of yours but eventually it's going to be like 'meh'. Magick loses its mystery and scare value. And yes, I know some veteran players are already OOCly not scared of magick anymore, but after too much exposure it will be hard to even justify that fear IC. Everyone's going to have a friend (or two, or three) whom they knew before they manifested, and keep as friends afterward.

The fact that it was harder to conceal your identity as a secret mage before also limited the numbers of secret mages in the game.

[BadSkeelz]

1) It's not nearly that high

2) People manifesting wasn't that exciting to begin with. Magick was never that scarce, to the point manifestations were a relatively common occurence (I'd wager one a RL month in Allanak). You could normally guess which of the Runners would manifest because they sucked at everything in training.

3) Assuming the above is true (except for unmanifested Runners sucking, assuming they have a decent Guild), nothing has really changed except Magickers aren't as codedly powerful spell-wise.

[Cind]

It's just that when a third of the playerbase (hypothetical scenario) is unmanifested magickers, the 'freakout' moment becomes not freaky anymore.

That's what I was saying, basically. The rest of your post is a bit left of what I was meaning to say.

[racurtne]

Maybe your magicker doesn't need to let anyone know he/she is a magicker. Maybe he/she would never reveal it intentionally to anyone and would go to great pains to hide it, even while using it on occasion

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe your magicker doesn't need to let anyone know he/she is a magicker. Maybe he/she would never reveal it intentionally to anyone and would go to great pains to hide it, even while using it on occasion

Really wish I could find the Archer clip about "why bother being a secret agent if you can't tell everyone about it."

[lostinspace]

Still hating it and wishing for full elementals back. I only played one and did not enjoy it at all and was planning on trying another but frankly haven't been playing much Arm recently. I liked to alternate between gicks and mundanes to change things up, but now that just feels like alternating between mundanes and mundanes that get shit on just a little more.

Before gicks seemed mysterious and awesome, not I just sort of feel like they're cumbersome and boring.

[BadSkeelz]

Still hating it and wishing for full elementals back. I only played one and did not enjoy it at all and was planning on trying another but frankly haven't been playing much Arm recently. I liked to alternate between gicks and mundanes to change things up, but now that just feels like alternating between mundanes and mundanes that get shit on just a little more.

Before gicks seemed mysterious and awesome, not I just sort of feel like they're cumbersome and boring.

Do you think you (or others who've expressed similar sentiments) would still feel the same if the Mage Guilds had just been made Subguilds?

[Inks]

I like the changes but would like it if full mages were spec app only with the adequate karma level. Example: five karma +spec app = elkrosian.

[Lizzie]

Still hating it and wishing for full elementals back. I only played one and did not enjoy it at all and was planning on trying another but frankly haven't been playing much Arm recently. I liked to alternate between gicks and mundanes to change things up, but now that just feels like alternating between mundanes and mundanes that get shit on just a little more.

Before gicks seemed mysterious and awesome, not I just sort of feel like they're cumbersome and boring.

Do you think you (or others who've expressed similar sentiments) would still feel the same if the Mage Guilds had just been made Subguilds?

I've expressed similar sentiments. I would definitely not want full-mage guilds to be subguilds. If there's guild-sniffing going on, and it's bad enough that I actually notice it, I can submit a player complaint. If I don't notice it, then I'm none the wiser and it won't affect my RP, or my OOC approach to playing. I would love to see a full restoration of all mage guilds, a complete retcon of the mage subguilds, and possibly nilaz and sorcerer each needing full karma *and* special app to play - with drovians bumped back up to the karma they used to be before they got switched out with whirans - and whirans kept at the level they were before full mage guilds were retconned.

[Akaramu]

I like the changes but would like it if full mages were spec app only with the adequate karma level. Example: five karma +spec app = elkrosian.

+1 on spec app full elementalists. Being easily 'sniffed out' was never an issue for my rogues, and I had a full Krathi in the Byn for a while. She didn't do significantly worse than my pickpockets.  I'll have to play a subguild mage before I can comment on whether I like them or not.

So far my feedback is based on guesstimates and balance concerns.

[wizturbo]

I think the new subguilds were a cool addition to the game, but I wish they were just an addition instead of a replacement for the previous magick guilds. 

[lostinspace]

Do you think you (or others who've expressed similar sentiments) would still feel the same if the Mage Guilds had just been made Subguilds?

I would have enjoyed it more at the very least because the gick side would have still felt functional and complete. As for the playstyle change I think it would have been just as bad when it came to switching things up to prevent boredom.

My ideal solution is to add full elementals back and retain the subguilds for the most variety and to appeal to the masses. But if that happened I would likely never touch the elemental subguilds again because they feel so incomplete and pretty much every concept I have that involves them could be done with full elemental and extended subguilds anyways.

[Harmless]

one thing I would say is I expect that over time, as the world experiences just the new subguilded magickers, who are all less magickally inclined compared to their predecessors since they rely more on their mundane abilities, is that there may be a slow change in how people in general see.. or possibly, accept (to a limited degree) the magickers, slowly changing the culture slightly to accept them more.

I would still want sorcerors, those who can use a broad range of abilities. I hope that sorceror skillsets are suitably wide enough to.. function, as a mage.

In that case, I am okay with elementalists being resigned to a fraction of their former magickal potential. But seeing as what's feared about magickers is magick.. I could see people being just less afraid of magickers, possibly, if they had the insight that their capabilities weren't quite what the old lore would state.

That's the odd thing, is the mismatch of lore, the decades of stories/actions that (player) magickers did, (with more magickal magickers) and the current reality. This is especially odd because a lot of current characters have lived out years of time when there were more magickers/gemmed with a lot of magickal ability, comparitively. So it remains to be seen how these changes affect roleplay around magickers, but I am cautiously optimistic that the limitation in magickal ability may be a nice tradeoff for role-playability.

[Synthesis]

Subguild elementalists can still be plenty dangerous.

[Hauwke]

Imagine a dorf warrior subguild elementalist that has agi buffs. Or even armor buffs. Dude would be nigh invincible.

Imagine an elf with strength buffs.
Or perhaps a warrior with healing stuff. (Did someone say paladin?)

These are literally just off the top of my head. Subguilds when done right could be very much overpowered.

[Synthesis]

Imagine a dorf warrior subguild elementalist that has agi buffs. Or even armor buffs. Dude would be nigh invincible.

Imagine an elf with strength buffs.
Or perhaps a warrior with healing stuff. (Did someone say paladin?)

These are literally just off the top of my head. Subguilds when done right could be very much overpowered.

mediocre

[wizturbo]

Have to agree with Synthesis here.  Mediocre.  Will an elementalist with buffs be better than a mundane at similar skill?  Sure, but not in any game breaking way. 

We're talking about an incremental improvement here, not an order of magnitude.   Think of an old school D&D character.  Give a rogue a +4 strength bonus...  They don't suddenly become gods, they just do 4 more damage than the other rogue and can carry around more junk.  Toss plate mail armor on a rogue without any of the penalties...same deal.  They're "better" than the other guys who don't get these bonuses, but these minor advantages come at insanely high risks and/or costs in terms of play options and role choices.

Doesn't mean there isn't opportunities for some crazy stuff to go down, but it's not overpowered.  If anything, it's substantially weaker than elementalists had the potential to be before.

[Harmless]

Sounds like you guys agree with the nature of my post then. Mundane folks can be plenty dangerous, I agree. The addition of magick is now more comparable to an extended subguild.. so why is magick all that bad, anyway? In my opinion the lore and stigma no longer fit the actual severity of the elementalist's connection. The stigma made more sense when the average elementalist had abilities that could do direct harm, protect, curse, and create or strengthen, the sum total of all of those making for a frightening opponent indeed resembling a magickal monster.

All that has to happen are more plots with magick users showing their drastically weakened stuff and somehow spreading the IC knowledge that their magickal capabilities are now handicapped. Seeing as there are factually less open magick users about now this is a challenge but it is one I intend to help towards as I try out the new subguilds (at a rate of like one per RL year at my typical pace).

Need to clarify.. the RP explanation likely wouldn't be "magick is now handicapped." I HOPE people know I mean that magickers should just roleplay their magick as their abilities allow them to. The determination of how dangerous that really is remains to be seen through their actions, but fact is that the mgickers of Zalanthan lore no longer exist. We can't really retcon lore like staff retconned full scale magickers but we can build new lore.

[Akaramu]

All that has to happen are more plots with magick users showing their drastically weakened stuff and somehow spreading the IC knowledge that their magickal capabilities are now handicapped. Seeing as there are factually less open magick users about now this is a challenge but it is one I intend to help towards as I try out the new subguilds (at a rate of like one per RL year at my typical pace).

I don't want this to happen, to be honest. I don't know if I'd want to play in a Zalanthas where magic is more common and seen as 'handicapped' and / or less stigmatized.

I also really, really, REALLY want the full elementalist guilds to come back. 

On that note, I'd love to hear the staff perspective of why they felt the magick guilds had to go. Because I don't get it. If a few players abused their coded power, why not just remove their elementalist options and let everyone else play?

[Feco]

I don't see any IC or OOC reason why attitudes toward magickers should change, on the whole.

A lot of magicker hate is based on unknowns, dubious truths, and superstitions.  Sure, people are afraid of being fireballed, but they're also afraid of being cursed with bad luck, or with their babies growing arms out of their foreheads (which may or may not happen).

Magick hate is also cool, and makes for good, unique flavor.  I would hope we would OOCly resist some massive IC change toward magicker acceptance, if only to preserve that flavor.

On that note, I think nilazi, drovians, and elkrosians were cool, unique bits of flavor in Arm (whether or not they made perfect sense -- Nilaz for example, was weird, and it seems hard to justify them doing some of the things they do -- they were cool, though).  That's another reason I'm sad to see them unavailable for play.  (although, like everyone else, I'm glad that one Drov spell is gone/not used frequently).

Rule of Cool should always prevail!

[Miradus]

Makes no sense to change the lore.

The suspicion and hate from them comes from the ancient stories of how they destroyed the world. Is the world going to get better? Is it going to rain? Suddenly going to find ore deposits of iron in the Red Desert?

No?

Then it's still the fault of the gicks.

[Lizzie]

Now that each element has been split, I'm thinking the pool should be empty more often. The krathi should charge more. There are fewer rukkians/vivaduans/sunshine and night providers to keep the plantlife flourishing in the quarter and the room descriptions should reflect that. The components seller's wares should now be less valuable (to buy or sell), since fewer people have any need for them. The elemental weaves shop should have more clothing to reflect the different splits. The accessories shop should also have more accessories to reflect the different splits.

If the "elements" of Elkros and Drov no longer exist in the Known World (as opposed to simply no longer being playable), then their temples should be razed to the ground, as a demonstration of Tek's power (since ICly, it makes sense for Tek to take the credit for their lack of existence).

There should be warring factions within the Quarter (and even outside the city), each declaring that their sub-split is the only "valid" member of their element.

Sadly - there's none of this. It's the same old, same old, except now mages are now less powerful than they used to be, and therefore less scary, and everyone knows it.