Discussion of some changes to criminal code

[John]

I can see Kurac enforcing it so that Tuluk and Allanak don't raze it to the ground. Red Storm, however, totally seems like a place where it would be tolerated.

[zztri]

Code Select Expand

The huge, hairy half-giant soldier has arrived from the west, dragging the one-eyed, sun-bronzed man.
>
The huge, hairy half-giant tells you, in Sirihish:
"I caught a criminal, Lord Templar. He did literacy."
>
The huge, hairy half-giant releases the one-eyed, sun-bronzed man.
>
The one-eyed, sun-bronzed man falls on the dust and grovels before you.
>
The one-eyed, sun-bronzed man tells you, in Sirihish:
"Mercy, Lord Templar! I was just tattooing a jozhal on a customer's arm."
>emote bobs his head to a side.
The chubby templar with a fancy hairdo bobs his head to a side.
>tell giant (voice soft) Is he telling the truth, Private?
Voice soft, you tell the huge, hairy half-giant, in Sirihish:
"Is he telling the truth, Private?"
>
Shaking his head, the huge, hairy half-giant tells you, in Sirihish:
"No Lord Templar. He drew squiggly lines. He did literacy."
>emote facepalms.
The chubby templar with a fancy hairdo facepalms.


Couldn't resist the urge to share this image. Sorry...

[Rathustra]

Setting aside possible geopolitical reasons why places like Luir's Outpost and Red Storm might make literacy illegal in light of their nearby imperial neighbors there is also the fact that writing and literacy is power over the illiterate. Propagation of literacy is not a good thing for the people who have the means to communicate through writing and isn't likely to be tolerated.

There is also the cultural association between those who write and sorcery. Though this isn't really reflected in our docs and is a holdover from Dark Sun where someone who wasn't a noble who had a book/writing was often strung up as a defiler.

[Lizzie]

I'm okay with the writing issue - makes sense. It's still the reading part I have trouble with. A soldier can't tell if you're looking, or reading. But codedly, he can tell, because "read paper" will crim-flag you while "examine paper" will not. If the scroll is open, and you're looking at it, there exists no way for an observer - even a dedicated loyal high-ranking commoner militia Captain - to know that you're reading - or not reading - the marks on that paper. You're looking at it. If you are illiterate, and emote roaming your eyes from left to right, top to bottom, you are -not- reading - you're looking. And the code will reflect that.

Examining, by nature of the function of the code, means "taking a close, careful look" at something. If you are literate, that close careful look will reveal words that you understand. If you are illiterate, it'll reveal words that you don't understand. Regardless, you're seeing the words. Your comprehension of those words can't be discerned by someone watching you look at it.

Am I making no sense at all, or am I making sense and the staff has determined that this is how it will be?

tl;dr: writing crimflag = fine. reading crimflag = not fine.

[Malken]

I kinda agree with Lizzie where I feel that writing should definitely be a crimcode thing but that "reading", while illegal, should be left to the discrimination of the current law enforcing PCs in game. If you are so focused on looking at a piece of paper that it might look like you're gathering info from it (ie: reading) in a public area, then I'm sure others would see that as "suspicious" and report you rather quickly. But to be insta-flagged because you use a "read" command on a piece of paper you find in the street or whatever is a bit weird. I'm also thinking about all the poor n00bs who would be "reading" stuff they find randomly by mistake once the writing code becomes a little more popular.

Otherwise I think all the other changes are pretty peachy!

[Nathvaan]

I see your points.  I tested it and I think it is not exactly working as I would like.  I also don't think that typing 'read book' should flag you anymore than 'look book' should.  But if you 'read book' and you have the skill and it has writing on it then I think that would be suspicious enough to warrant an arrest.

[SuchDragonWow]

I think if you have a book in public, and you are looking at it in public, that should be a red flag.  A piece of parchment, maybe not as much.  It gets a bit more convoluted if GMH people are making trade marks, or whatever.  Or an artist is drawing.  I dunno.

[Lizzie]

I think if you have a book in public, and you are looking at it in public, that should be a red flag.  A piece of parchment, maybe not as much.  It gets a bit more convoluted if GMH people are making trade marks, or whatever.  Or an artist is drawing.  I dunno.

I think that makes some sense - but only if you are literate. And to Nathvaan - thanks for explaining your thoughts about it - I think - if the soldiers would know the difference, then there would be an echo when you read something, that everyone else can see. Is that a practical addition to the script? In other words:

read parchment
returns to the room:

[The tressy-tressed woman appears to be examining a plain piece of parchment with particular interest.]

read book
[The tall handsome man is totes reading his book.]

And if you don't have literacy on your skill list at all, you wouldn't get crimflagged. Conversely - if you have greater than 80% mastery in literacy of *that* language - you have a chance of not being crimflagged.

Why: because people who are fully literate can read without making it REALLY obvious that they're reading. People who aren't fully literate might need to use their finger under the word - remember how you were when you first learned to read - compared to reading a screen scroll in a combat scene in Arm.

[Nathvaan]

Lizzie - I won't be getting that granular with this change but I appreciate your opinion and will keep it in mind if I do any future changes to this type of thing.

[nauta]

The real question: are the Kuraci soldiers gonna bitch about moving the jails closer to the criminals?

[Nathvaan]

The real question: are the Kuraci soldiers gonna bitch about moving the jails closer to the criminals?

I would be remiss were I not to include that part! Soldiers bitch about that no matter where they are at!

[Evilone]

Love the changes, except im skeptical on getting wanted for reading in public. Personally I think that should be a job for PC militia to investigate from other PC reports, but I doubt its going to matter much anyway cause I can't recall if I've ever seen a commoner trying to read IG before.

[BadSkeelz]

At least there aren't any goddamn half-giant soldiers in Luir's.

I feel like the literacy talk is mostly hot air, if only because literacy is a rare thing. That said, I'm in agreement with Lizzie that making Reading a crime opens up a whole can of worms. I would be perfectly fine restricting Writing to CODED criminality. If a half-giant is somehow trained to "know" what someone reading looks like, I think learning to read upside down would be a viable countermeasure. Half-giants are stupid.

Reading and writing, under the umbrella crime of "Literacy" should both be illegal of course.

[Twilight]

Um.


Someone is making markings on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take him to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Seems like reasonable training.

Someone is looking at some marks on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take her to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Also seems like reasonable training.

Not like there is probably cause or even that you need to be doing anything wrong for soldiers to haul you away.

[BadSkeelz]

As long as I can make a bunch of random scribbles, then plant them on people so they get hauled off to jail.

On a serious note, have any changes been done to let soldier-NPCs subdue people in combat? A lot of PCs get killed because they're either in combat, or resist subdue, and the NPCs resort to lethal force.

[Lizzie]

Um.


Someone is making markings on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take him to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Seems like reasonable training.

Someone is looking at some marks on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take her to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Also seems like reasonable training.

Not like there is probably cause or even that you need to be doing anything wrong for soldiers to haul you away.

That would make 100% sense, EXCEPT: typing "look paper" does NOT crim-flag you. Someone looking at marks on paper that aren't pictures will NOT cause you to be taken to jail.

This is a conflict of the code. The code is dictating that there is a VISIBLE difference, that is visible to other people, between "look" and "read." And yet, there is no echo to reflect this VISIBLE difference. You can get jailed for something that no one can see you doing.

[Dar]

please remind me. If you 'look scroll', are you going to be given what's written on it? Or do you need to specifically type "read scroll" to read it.

Cant we just assume that if you look scroll, then the scroll is in a folded/rolled up state, while if you 'read scroll', you unroll it and flatten it to read it?

[Lizzie]

please remind me. If you 'look scroll', are you going to be given what's written on it? Or do you need to specifically type "read scroll" to read it.

Cant we just assume that if you look scroll, then the scroll is in a folded/rolled up state, while if you 'read scroll', you unroll it and flatten it to read it?

LOOK will give you the description of the scroll itself, and will indicate whether or not something is written on it. If you are literate, you'll see which language the writing is in.
READ will show you what is actually written on it.

You can LOOK at a scroll after its been opened, and you can seal a scroll, codedly. You can unseal it and look at it without reading it. You can open and close books and look at them without reading them. You can also read them. Both are coded features of the game. Neither of them are "visible" to anyone other than the person doing the reading/looking. And yet - soldiers can take you to jail for doing it.

[Kalden]

I think ideally soldiers would not be super hyper-vigilant and everpresent about literacy - it would be fairly chance-oriented, perhaps with a skill that could increase your chance of reading discreetly.

Not to derail (and tried a search but didn't see anything), but... if a hooded figure with a facewrap is caught by the crime code, does their sdesc show up? Because if it does, isn't that kind of a bug, in that it doesn't fit with an explanation that can be adequately roleplayed? Maybe this would better fit in a new topic.

I may have known this, but since I took a 5-year break I forget. In Shadows of Isildur, the other RPI I used to play, I believe that the sdesc did not show up. You could also get a hidden mdesc and other cool stuff there.

[Nathvaan]

Not to derail (and tried a search but didn't see anything), but... if a hooded figure with a facewrap is caught by the crime code, does their sdesc show up? Because if it does, isn't that kind of a bug, in that it doesn't fit with an explanation that can be adequately roleplayed? Maybe this would better fit in a new topic.

Does their sdesc show up where exactly?  When they are arrested it wouldn't show up, nor would it when the templar questions them.  It might show up after the templar has them remove the hood and facewrap though!  If you feel there is a bug, please feel free to put in a bug report and I will be happy to look into it.

[Kalden]

Oh, I meant in the wanted list that the law enforcement can check. Haven't really played law enforcement characters in Armageddon in probably literally over a decade so I don't know much about how it works.

[Nathvaan]

While I like the read/write changes (especially if it's just one step closer to more-common-but-still-illegal literacy) I'm curious if it's a crime to read/write in Red Storm and Luirs Outpost as well as Allanak/Tuluk? If so, why? What interest would these smaller communities have in enforcing a totalitarian ban on literacy?

This i'm curious about, too.

Red Storm.  The Sand Lord presumably wants to keep his subjects ignorant to be better able to lord over them.  Kurac needs to walk the line between Nak and Tuluk. it would be very bad business to go around flaunting reading and writing.  That stuff gets back to the cities in real poser and then previous deals could be unstuck.  It is in the interest of all the 'have' to make sure all the 'have nots' stay that way.

[Incognito]

If we're banking on the premise that a random AoD soldier errs on the side of caution and arrests anyone who "appears" to be reading or writing, can we make it such that they will only do so if they are present in the same room as the target?

I dont find it realistic that someone from afar could/would/might make out what you're doing with a piece of paper. Similarly, I dont find it realistic if the crim-flag gets auto-set no matter where you read in Allanak. And finally, can we make it so that if someone does actually read or write something in the privacy of an enclosed indoors place that is NOT public, s/he does not get auto-crim-flagged?

Assuming that this issue is of such importance that it warrants actual code-based retribution, lets try and make it as realistic as possible, even though we're going with the assumption that low-rung guards will always err on the side of caution and arrest first, ask questions later.

[nauta]

As a historical note, there's a quote from Augustine (let's see if I can find it) where he marvels at St. Ambrose for being able to read without moving his lips.  It would seem that from the invention of literacy proper (which pissed Socrates and Plato off, since they worried it would cause the youngsters to not bother memorizing anything -- oh if they could see Google Memory) up until the 5th or 6th century (and even later according to historians), it was VERY common to move your lips while reading.

So, all that to say, you -could- make the 'read' code echo out something about moving your lips and whispering the words while looking over the page.  And -that- would certainly raise a few eyebrows.

HERE!

http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

ETA: Hehe, I just thought of a noble reading over Gif's Book of Magickal Fireball Incantations, out loud.  Poof!

[LauraMars]

Heh, interesting. I wonder if people who say they "hear words" in their heads when they read are some kind of vestigial evolutionary holdover of lip movements while reading.