Discussion of some changes to criminal code

[Nathvaan]

Discussion of release notes.

First, I want to preface with the fact that I looked into making some more interesting and larger changes to the criminal code but found that it is fairly complicated in
the way that the code interacts with itself.  This complication made it a much larger project than expected which meant I needed to scale it back.
In the interest of at least getting some of the needed changes in place, I decided to not work on a sweeping change to the criminal code at this time.

This change was designed to address some very specific problems including:
-There is no room for illegal activities in Luir's due to the instant death nature of the criminal code in the outpost.
-PC soldiers in Luir's didn't have the opportunity to RP dealing out the law which seems to be a lot of lost opportunity for meaningful interaction.
-PC law breakers just stay clear of Luir's because of the brutal nature of the criminal code, which again is lost opportunity for interaction.
-Soldiers who drag you off to jail just stay at the jail sometimes causing them to attack the criminal in the cell when the law comes to investigate.
-Soldier's distribution around the cities 'clump' more at the jail because they don't go back to their post.
-Even though reading/writing is illegal you could do it in public with coded impunity.

[John]

I like these changes. A lot... However does anyone feel like there's a whole aspect of the game that they are just completely oblivious to? Because I see something like

-Reading and Writing in public will now be a crime.
--Please be aware those who have Read/Write (great merchant houses included).

And I'm like "how many people (other than GMH merchants) have read and write!?" If this was solely because of a spate of GMH players reading and writing in public, I'd expect it to be handled via staff-player communication rather than a big code overhaul. So therefore I can only conclude that other commoners have read and write and I want to get in on all this illegal literacy!

That said, not trying to be a smart ass, but I've always seen Nenyuk bankers as making notations in giant ledgers and checking these ledgers to tell people how much is in their account. Is this the case? if so, is Nenyuk exempted from the crackdown on GMH public reading and writing?

[Bushranger]

I've always seen Nenyuk bankers as making notations in giant ledgers and checking these ledgers to tell people how much is in their account. Is this the case? if so, is Nenyuk exempted from the crackdown on GMH public reading and writing?

They also handle a great deal of money for the Templars and Nobles who, I'm sure, would like their accounts to be kept accurately so I'm sure they overlook the account notations. Likely they will call it counting and not literacy or they will say that it is not done in public. The law is so unjust!

[Nathvaan]

I like these changes. A lot... However does anyone feel like there's a whole aspect of the game that they are just completely oblivious to? Because I see something like

-Reading and Writing in public will now be a crime.
--Please be aware those who have Read/Write (great merchant houses included).

And I'm like "how many people (other than GMH merchants) have read and write!?" If this was solely because of a spate of GMH players reading and writing in public, I'd expect it to be handled via staff-player communication rather than a big code overhaul. So therefore I can only conclude that other commoners have read and write and I want to get in on all this illegal literacy!

That said, not trying to be a smart ass, but I've always seen Nenyuk bankers as making notations in giant ledgers and checking these ledgers to tell people how much is in their account. Is this the case? if so, is Nenyuk exempted from the crackdown on GMH public reading and writing?

This change to Read/Write criminal code is simply to make the law respond as it normally would.  Naturally it dove tails with some iterative changes I have been making to reading and writing over the last few months.

[DeidraKurac]

Suuuuper stoked about this! Should bring some excitement to the Outpost's roleplay environment.

Kudos to you for this, Nathvaan, looking forward to seeing what nefarious things people cook up now

[Lutagar]

At first I was just like  because it's basically impossible to learn literacy and anyone who did wouldn't risk their 1 in a 1000000000 character by writing in a tavern, but if it's being done with the intention of making the skill more accessible, then I'm actually really excited.

[John]

Naturally it dove tails with some iterative changes I have been making to reading and writing over the last few months.

[puella]

Cool changes.  I definitely think this'll make things more exciting in Luir's.

Question: The crimflag picks up the 'read' command, right, not the 'look' command?

The reason I ask: I once in game picked up a scroll with a rinther, and carried it around, and would, on occasion, sit around and type 'look scroll'.  Would this get me crimflagged now if I did it in front of a soldier?

[Lizzie]

I would think "reading" exclusively wouldn't crim-flag anyone. Onlookers have no way of knowing whether or not someone is actually reading something, or if they're just looking at it, not comprehending anything on the page. I also feel that unless the soldiers can read - they wouldn't be able to tell if a person was writing, or just scribbling/doodling.

Furthermore, I feel that a GMH PC writing Cavilish should be "tolerable" by the crim-code, while anyone not a noble or templar writing any other language should be crim-flagged (assuming it makes sense for the accuser to know that it is, in fact, writing and not scribbling/doodling).

I give you lorem ipsum as my evidence that sometimes - writing isn't writing. It's nonsense that has no intention of being anything else (or in real world terms, is just a place holder on a page).

[a french mans shirt]

I must have heard this somewhere because I'm pretty sure GMH higher-ups are allowed to read and write cavilish (like family members, full merchants, etc. not like, for example, first and second hunters of Kadius) and I remember an instance where a now-dead family member mentioned writing something down when they got the time.

As for cavilish itself, I'm not sure if it is a full language in which you could express yourself beautifully or just a series of counting and trade ciphers. Either way, someone who doesn't know could apply for a family member, get in and start writing exquisite novels in trade tongue.

[Nathvaan]

Cool changes.  I definitely think this'll make things more exciting in Luir's.

Question: The crimflag picks up the 'read' command, right, not the 'look' command?

The reason I ask: I once in game picked up a scroll with a rinther, and carried it around, and would, on occasion, sit around and type 'look scroll'.  Would this get me crimflagged now if I did it in front of a soldier?

It would not crim flag you for using the look command in anyway.  Unless you typo 'look scroll' as 'kill soldier'!

[Nathvaan]

I would think "reading" exclusively wouldn't crim-flag anyone. Onlookers have no way of knowing whether or not someone is actually reading something, or if they're just looking at it, not comprehending anything on the page. I also feel that unless the soldiers can read - they wouldn't be able to tell if a person was writing, or just scribbling/doodling.

Furthermore, I feel that a GMH PC writing Cavilish should be "tolerable" by the crim-code, while anyone not a noble or templar writing any other language should be crim-flagged (assuming it makes sense for the accuser to know that it is, in fact, writing and not scribbling/doodling).

I give you lorem ipsum as my evidence that sometimes - writing isn't writing. It's nonsense that has no intention of being anything else (or in real world terms, is just a place holder on a page).

I thought of these very same arguments when looking at putting this in place.  What I can tell you is that, as I see it, soldiers see anyone looking like they are reading or writing they would haul that person off to jail and let the smart people (templars) sort it out. Staring at a piece of paper with word like scribbled might just be enough to bring the attention of the soldiers.

As to the difference between writing and doodling this would be apparent to anyone.  Making structured 'pictograms' would look different than an illustration.  Soldiers would know the difference between a shitty drawing of a flower and something that looks like writing.  Again, they would err on the side of 'let someone else sort that shit out'.  This is exactly why when you look at a scroll with writing you will get 'Something is written on it in an unknown language.' but looking at it won't flag you a criminal because it's assumed to be a glance.

I think using lorem ipsum as an example doesn't really takes into account that people who see that text in a place holder position for graphical design purposes actually know a written language or have spent their whole lives seeing written language.  In Zalanthas nearly all commoners wouldn't have ever looked at the written word.

[Rathustra]

I would think "reading" exclusively wouldn't crim-flag anyone. Onlookers have no way of knowing whether or not someone is actually reading something, or if they're just looking at it, not comprehending anything on the page. I also feel that unless the soldiers can read - they wouldn't be able to tell if a person was writing, or just scribbling/doodling.

Furthermore, I feel that a GMH PC writing Cavilish should be "tolerable" by the crim-code, while anyone not a noble or templar writing any other language should be crim-flagged (assuming it makes sense for the accuser to know that it is, in fact, writing and not scribbling/doodling).

I give you lorem ipsum as my evidence that sometimes - writing isn't writing. It's nonsense that has no intention of being anything else (or in real world terms, is just a place holder on a page).

Your evidence doesn't work - because it relies on the fact that I, as someone who knows about 'greeking' to test the layout of documents, understand that 'lorem ipsum' is meaningless (Even though it actually isn't). In-game a soldier is illiterate and is an agent of a totalitarian state. Also they're possibly a half-giant. The distinction doesn't exist - if you're making marks on a piece of paper you are possibly writing and are likely a sorcerer. Either way a Templar will handle it!

Edit: Oops - didn't see Nathvaan's edit when I posted. Sorry if this seems like dog-piling you, Lizzie! Not intended. Ignore my post for Nathvaan's.

[Molten Heart]

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[Jingo]

Maybe there is a future for some literate guild/subguild that offers literacy? They'd be a criminal of course, similar burglars, pick-pockets, and assassins.

Armageddon, murder, corruption, betrayal, reading and writing. It's kind of weird to think about it like that.

This has me excited.

[Barsook]

Maybe there is a future for some literate guild/subguild that offers literacy? They'd be a criminal of course, similar burglars, pick-pockets, and assassins.

Armageddon, murder, corruption, betrayal, reading and writing. It's kind of weird to think about it like that.

This has me excited.

[Akaramu]

Maybe there is a future for some literate guild/subguild that offers literacy? They'd be a criminal of course, similar burglars, pick-pockets, and assassins.

Armageddon, murder, corruption, betrayal, reading and writing. It's kind of weird to think about it like that.

This has me excited.

YES! Creepy written death threats ftw!

You retrieve a bloodstained parchment from your wrinkly brown envelope.

read note

On a bloodstained parchment, you read:
I know what you did last Nekrete.

feel panic

[Lutagar]

I just can't wait to see all the tek x utep fanfic shipping that's going to be made available IC.

And then people will understand why literacy was made illegal.

[Reiloth]

How does this apply to fine artists? Specifically those working with ink and paper, all implements of which are sold in the Allanak bazaar?

[Nathvaan]

How does this apply to fine artists? Specifically those working with ink and paper, all implements of which are sold in the Allanak bazaar?

From the release notes:
--Possession/buying/selling of reading and writing instruments is not a crime.

Doodling pictures or making art isn't the same thing as writing.  Soldier are trained enough to know the difference.

[Reiloth]

How does this apply to fine artists? Specifically those working with ink and paper, all implements of which are sold in the Allanak bazaar?

From the release notes:
--Possession/buying/selling of reading and writing instruments is not a crime.

Doodling pictures or making art isn't the same thing as writing.  Soldier are trained enough to know the difference.

This seems somewhat in conflict with what Rathustra is putting forward -- That soldiers would jump to the conclusion that people using ink on a piece of paper are writing, and that Templars will be deciding whether or not that's the case.

Would it be safe to say that a Commoner probably wouldn't (or shouldn't) be making this kind of art in public, due to the ignorance of the Soldier Force? I mean it's one thing to be painting on a canvas, and another to be doing ink drawings on paper in a society that has outlawed literacy.

[Marauder Moe]

I dunno, this seems like the sort of crime that doesn't require an immediate and violent response.  Like heresy, conspiracy, fucking elves in public, etc.  There's no immediate danger from it.  Instead we can have a nice, roleplayed investigation of it later.

That said, I've NEVER seen a commoner do this in public, and I don't expect to see this crim-code invoked ever, so....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Crimcode/jails in Luirs is wonderful, though.

[LauraMars]

I love this. Having a an actual crim code in Luirs has been a long time coming.

Any plans to criminalize smoking spice in public in Allanak? How about adding more immunities for nobility, like theft and assault?

While I like the read/write changes (especially if it's just one step closer to more-common-but-still-illegal literacy) I'm curious if it's a crime to read/write in Red Storm and Luirs Outpost as well as Allanak/Tuluk? If so, why? What interest would these smaller communities have in enforcing a totalitarian ban on literacy?

[Reiloth]

Yes, also, thank you so much for putting the time into adding fleshed out Crim Code to the Outpost. Kurac suddenly has so much more staying power in Luir's. They actually -are- the law now, rather than just implying it.

[Reiloth]

While I like the read/write changes (especially if it's just one step closer to more-common-but-still-illegal literacy) I'm curious if it's a crime to read/write in Red Storm and Luirs Outpost as well as Allanak/Tuluk? If so, why? What interest would these smaller communities have in enforcing a totalitarian ban on literacy?

This i'm curious about, too.