Discussion of some changes to criminal code

[Nathvaan]

Discussion of release notes.

First, I want to preface with the fact that I looked into making some more interesting and larger changes to the criminal code but found that it is fairly complicated in
the way that the code interacts with itself.  This complication made it a much larger project than expected which meant I needed to scale it back.
In the interest of at least getting some of the needed changes in place, I decided to not work on a sweeping change to the criminal code at this time.

This change was designed to address some very specific problems including:
-There is no room for illegal activities in Luir's due to the instant death nature of the criminal code in the outpost.
-PC soldiers in Luir's didn't have the opportunity to RP dealing out the law which seems to be a lot of lost opportunity for meaningful interaction.
-PC law breakers just stay clear of Luir's because of the brutal nature of the criminal code, which again is lost opportunity for interaction.
-Soldiers who drag you off to jail just stay at the jail sometimes causing them to attack the criminal in the cell when the law comes to investigate.
-Soldier's distribution around the cities 'clump' more at the jail because they don't go back to their post.
-Even though reading/writing is illegal you could do it in public with coded impunity.

[John]

I like these changes. A lot... However does anyone feel like there's a whole aspect of the game that they are just completely oblivious to? Because I see something like

-Reading and Writing in public will now be a crime.
--Please be aware those who have Read/Write (great merchant houses included).

And I'm like "how many people (other than GMH merchants) have read and write!?" If this was solely because of a spate of GMH players reading and writing in public, I'd expect it to be handled via staff-player communication rather than a big code overhaul. So therefore I can only conclude that other commoners have read and write and I want to get in on all this illegal literacy!

That said, not trying to be a smart ass, but I've always seen Nenyuk bankers as making notations in giant ledgers and checking these ledgers to tell people how much is in their account. Is this the case? if so, is Nenyuk exempted from the crackdown on GMH public reading and writing?

[Bushranger]

I've always seen Nenyuk bankers as making notations in giant ledgers and checking these ledgers to tell people how much is in their account. Is this the case? if so, is Nenyuk exempted from the crackdown on GMH public reading and writing?

They also handle a great deal of money for the Templars and Nobles who, I'm sure, would like their accounts to be kept accurately so I'm sure they overlook the account notations. Likely they will call it counting and not literacy or they will say that it is not done in public. The law is so unjust!

[Nathvaan]

I like these changes. A lot... However does anyone feel like there's a whole aspect of the game that they are just completely oblivious to? Because I see something like

-Reading and Writing in public will now be a crime.
--Please be aware those who have Read/Write (great merchant houses included).

And I'm like "how many people (other than GMH merchants) have read and write!?" If this was solely because of a spate of GMH players reading and writing in public, I'd expect it to be handled via staff-player communication rather than a big code overhaul. So therefore I can only conclude that other commoners have read and write and I want to get in on all this illegal literacy!

That said, not trying to be a smart ass, but I've always seen Nenyuk bankers as making notations in giant ledgers and checking these ledgers to tell people how much is in their account. Is this the case? if so, is Nenyuk exempted from the crackdown on GMH public reading and writing?

This change to Read/Write criminal code is simply to make the law respond as it normally would.  Naturally it dove tails with some iterative changes I have been making to reading and writing over the last few months.

[DeidraKurac]

Suuuuper stoked about this! Should bring some excitement to the Outpost's roleplay environment.

Kudos to you for this, Nathvaan, looking forward to seeing what nefarious things people cook up now

[Lutagar]

At first I was just like  because it's basically impossible to learn literacy and anyone who did wouldn't risk their 1 in a 1000000000 character by writing in a tavern, but if it's being done with the intention of making the skill more accessible, then I'm actually really excited.

[John]

Naturally it dove tails with some iterative changes I have been making to reading and writing over the last few months.

[puella]

Cool changes.  I definitely think this'll make things more exciting in Luir's.

Question: The crimflag picks up the 'read' command, right, not the 'look' command?

The reason I ask: I once in game picked up a scroll with a rinther, and carried it around, and would, on occasion, sit around and type 'look scroll'.  Would this get me crimflagged now if I did it in front of a soldier?

[Lizzie]

I would think "reading" exclusively wouldn't crim-flag anyone. Onlookers have no way of knowing whether or not someone is actually reading something, or if they're just looking at it, not comprehending anything on the page. I also feel that unless the soldiers can read - they wouldn't be able to tell if a person was writing, or just scribbling/doodling.

Furthermore, I feel that a GMH PC writing Cavilish should be "tolerable" by the crim-code, while anyone not a noble or templar writing any other language should be crim-flagged (assuming it makes sense for the accuser to know that it is, in fact, writing and not scribbling/doodling).

I give you lorem ipsum as my evidence that sometimes - writing isn't writing. It's nonsense that has no intention of being anything else (or in real world terms, is just a place holder on a page).

[a french mans shirt]

I must have heard this somewhere because I'm pretty sure GMH higher-ups are allowed to read and write cavilish (like family members, full merchants, etc. not like, for example, first and second hunters of Kadius) and I remember an instance where a now-dead family member mentioned writing something down when they got the time.

As for cavilish itself, I'm not sure if it is a full language in which you could express yourself beautifully or just a series of counting and trade ciphers. Either way, someone who doesn't know could apply for a family member, get in and start writing exquisite novels in trade tongue.

[Nathvaan]

Cool changes.  I definitely think this'll make things more exciting in Luir's.

Question: The crimflag picks up the 'read' command, right, not the 'look' command?

The reason I ask: I once in game picked up a scroll with a rinther, and carried it around, and would, on occasion, sit around and type 'look scroll'.  Would this get me crimflagged now if I did it in front of a soldier?

It would not crim flag you for using the look command in anyway.  Unless you typo 'look scroll' as 'kill soldier'!

[Nathvaan]

I would think "reading" exclusively wouldn't crim-flag anyone. Onlookers have no way of knowing whether or not someone is actually reading something, or if they're just looking at it, not comprehending anything on the page. I also feel that unless the soldiers can read - they wouldn't be able to tell if a person was writing, or just scribbling/doodling.

Furthermore, I feel that a GMH PC writing Cavilish should be "tolerable" by the crim-code, while anyone not a noble or templar writing any other language should be crim-flagged (assuming it makes sense for the accuser to know that it is, in fact, writing and not scribbling/doodling).

I give you lorem ipsum as my evidence that sometimes - writing isn't writing. It's nonsense that has no intention of being anything else (or in real world terms, is just a place holder on a page).

I thought of these very same arguments when looking at putting this in place.  What I can tell you is that, as I see it, soldiers see anyone looking like they are reading or writing they would haul that person off to jail and let the smart people (templars) sort it out. Staring at a piece of paper with word like scribbled might just be enough to bring the attention of the soldiers.

As to the difference between writing and doodling this would be apparent to anyone.  Making structured 'pictograms' would look different than an illustration.  Soldiers would know the difference between a shitty drawing of a flower and something that looks like writing.  Again, they would err on the side of 'let someone else sort that shit out'.  This is exactly why when you look at a scroll with writing you will get 'Something is written on it in an unknown language.' but looking at it won't flag you a criminal because it's assumed to be a glance.

I think using lorem ipsum as an example doesn't really takes into account that people who see that text in a place holder position for graphical design purposes actually know a written language or have spent their whole lives seeing written language.  In Zalanthas nearly all commoners wouldn't have ever looked at the written word.

[Rathustra]

I would think "reading" exclusively wouldn't crim-flag anyone. Onlookers have no way of knowing whether or not someone is actually reading something, or if they're just looking at it, not comprehending anything on the page. I also feel that unless the soldiers can read - they wouldn't be able to tell if a person was writing, or just scribbling/doodling.

Furthermore, I feel that a GMH PC writing Cavilish should be "tolerable" by the crim-code, while anyone not a noble or templar writing any other language should be crim-flagged (assuming it makes sense for the accuser to know that it is, in fact, writing and not scribbling/doodling).

I give you lorem ipsum as my evidence that sometimes - writing isn't writing. It's nonsense that has no intention of being anything else (or in real world terms, is just a place holder on a page).

Your evidence doesn't work - because it relies on the fact that I, as someone who knows about 'greeking' to test the layout of documents, understand that 'lorem ipsum' is meaningless (Even though it actually isn't). In-game a soldier is illiterate and is an agent of a totalitarian state. Also they're possibly a half-giant. The distinction doesn't exist - if you're making marks on a piece of paper you are possibly writing and are likely a sorcerer. Either way a Templar will handle it!

Edit: Oops - didn't see Nathvaan's edit when I posted. Sorry if this seems like dog-piling you, Lizzie! Not intended. Ignore my post for Nathvaan's.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Jingo]

Maybe there is a future for some literate guild/subguild that offers literacy? They'd be a criminal of course, similar burglars, pick-pockets, and assassins.

Armageddon, murder, corruption, betrayal, reading and writing. It's kind of weird to think about it like that.

This has me excited.

[Barsook]

Maybe there is a future for some literate guild/subguild that offers literacy? They'd be a criminal of course, similar burglars, pick-pockets, and assassins.

Armageddon, murder, corruption, betrayal, reading and writing. It's kind of weird to think about it like that.

This has me excited.

[Akaramu]

Maybe there is a future for some literate guild/subguild that offers literacy? They'd be a criminal of course, similar burglars, pick-pockets, and assassins.

Armageddon, murder, corruption, betrayal, reading and writing. It's kind of weird to think about it like that.

This has me excited.

YES! Creepy written death threats ftw!

You retrieve a bloodstained parchment from your wrinkly brown envelope.

read note

On a bloodstained parchment, you read:
I know what you did last Nekrete.

feel panic

[Lutagar]

I just can't wait to see all the tek x utep fanfic shipping that's going to be made available IC.

And then people will understand why literacy was made illegal.

[Reiloth]

How does this apply to fine artists? Specifically those working with ink and paper, all implements of which are sold in the Allanak bazaar?

[Nathvaan]

How does this apply to fine artists? Specifically those working with ink and paper, all implements of which are sold in the Allanak bazaar?

From the release notes:
--Possession/buying/selling of reading and writing instruments is not a crime.

Doodling pictures or making art isn't the same thing as writing.  Soldier are trained enough to know the difference.

[Reiloth]

How does this apply to fine artists? Specifically those working with ink and paper, all implements of which are sold in the Allanak bazaar?

From the release notes:
--Possession/buying/selling of reading and writing instruments is not a crime.

Doodling pictures or making art isn't the same thing as writing.  Soldier are trained enough to know the difference.

This seems somewhat in conflict with what Rathustra is putting forward -- That soldiers would jump to the conclusion that people using ink on a piece of paper are writing, and that Templars will be deciding whether or not that's the case.

Would it be safe to say that a Commoner probably wouldn't (or shouldn't) be making this kind of art in public, due to the ignorance of the Soldier Force? I mean it's one thing to be painting on a canvas, and another to be doing ink drawings on paper in a society that has outlawed literacy.

[Marauder Moe]

I dunno, this seems like the sort of crime that doesn't require an immediate and violent response.  Like heresy, conspiracy, fucking elves in public, etc.  There's no immediate danger from it.  Instead we can have a nice, roleplayed investigation of it later.

That said, I've NEVER seen a commoner do this in public, and I don't expect to see this crim-code invoked ever, so....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Crimcode/jails in Luirs is wonderful, though.

[LauraMars]

I love this. Having a an actual crim code in Luirs has been a long time coming.

Any plans to criminalize smoking spice in public in Allanak? How about adding more immunities for nobility, like theft and assault?

While I like the read/write changes (especially if it's just one step closer to more-common-but-still-illegal literacy) I'm curious if it's a crime to read/write in Red Storm and Luirs Outpost as well as Allanak/Tuluk? If so, why? What interest would these smaller communities have in enforcing a totalitarian ban on literacy?

[Reiloth]

Yes, also, thank you so much for putting the time into adding fleshed out Crim Code to the Outpost. Kurac suddenly has so much more staying power in Luir's. They actually -are- the law now, rather than just implying it.

[Reiloth]

While I like the read/write changes (especially if it's just one step closer to more-common-but-still-illegal literacy) I'm curious if it's a crime to read/write in Red Storm and Luirs Outpost as well as Allanak/Tuluk? If so, why? What interest would these smaller communities have in enforcing a totalitarian ban on literacy?

This i'm curious about, too.

[John]

I can see Kurac enforcing it so that Tuluk and Allanak don't raze it to the ground. Red Storm, however, totally seems like a place where it would be tolerated.

[zztri]

Code Select Expand

The huge, hairy half-giant soldier has arrived from the west, dragging the one-eyed, sun-bronzed man.
>
The huge, hairy half-giant tells you, in Sirihish:
"I caught a criminal, Lord Templar. He did literacy."
>
The huge, hairy half-giant releases the one-eyed, sun-bronzed man.
>
The one-eyed, sun-bronzed man falls on the dust and grovels before you.
>
The one-eyed, sun-bronzed man tells you, in Sirihish:
"Mercy, Lord Templar! I was just tattooing a jozhal on a customer's arm."
>emote bobs his head to a side.
The chubby templar with a fancy hairdo bobs his head to a side.
>tell giant (voice soft) Is he telling the truth, Private?
Voice soft, you tell the huge, hairy half-giant, in Sirihish:
"Is he telling the truth, Private?"
>
Shaking his head, the huge, hairy half-giant tells you, in Sirihish:
"No Lord Templar. He drew squiggly lines. He did literacy."
>emote facepalms.
The chubby templar with a fancy hairdo facepalms.


Couldn't resist the urge to share this image. Sorry...

[Rathustra]

Setting aside possible geopolitical reasons why places like Luir's Outpost and Red Storm might make literacy illegal in light of their nearby imperial neighbors there is also the fact that writing and literacy is power over the illiterate. Propagation of literacy is not a good thing for the people who have the means to communicate through writing and isn't likely to be tolerated.

There is also the cultural association between those who write and sorcery. Though this isn't really reflected in our docs and is a holdover from Dark Sun where someone who wasn't a noble who had a book/writing was often strung up as a defiler.

[Lizzie]

I'm okay with the writing issue - makes sense. It's still the reading part I have trouble with. A soldier can't tell if you're looking, or reading. But codedly, he can tell, because "read paper" will crim-flag you while "examine paper" will not. If the scroll is open, and you're looking at it, there exists no way for an observer - even a dedicated loyal high-ranking commoner militia Captain - to know that you're reading - or not reading - the marks on that paper. You're looking at it. If you are illiterate, and emote roaming your eyes from left to right, top to bottom, you are -not- reading - you're looking. And the code will reflect that.

Examining, by nature of the function of the code, means "taking a close, careful look" at something. If you are literate, that close careful look will reveal words that you understand. If you are illiterate, it'll reveal words that you don't understand. Regardless, you're seeing the words. Your comprehension of those words can't be discerned by someone watching you look at it.

Am I making no sense at all, or am I making sense and the staff has determined that this is how it will be?

tl;dr: writing crimflag = fine. reading crimflag = not fine.

[Malken]

I kinda agree with Lizzie where I feel that writing should definitely be a crimcode thing but that "reading", while illegal, should be left to the discrimination of the current law enforcing PCs in game. If you are so focused on looking at a piece of paper that it might look like you're gathering info from it (ie: reading) in a public area, then I'm sure others would see that as "suspicious" and report you rather quickly. But to be insta-flagged because you use a "read" command on a piece of paper you find in the street or whatever is a bit weird. I'm also thinking about all the poor n00bs who would be "reading" stuff they find randomly by mistake once the writing code becomes a little more popular.

Otherwise I think all the other changes are pretty peachy!

[Nathvaan]

I see your points.  I tested it and I think it is not exactly working as I would like.  I also don't think that typing 'read book' should flag you anymore than 'look book' should.  But if you 'read book' and you have the skill and it has writing on it then I think that would be suspicious enough to warrant an arrest.

[SuchDragonWow]

I think if you have a book in public, and you are looking at it in public, that should be a red flag.  A piece of parchment, maybe not as much.  It gets a bit more convoluted if GMH people are making trade marks, or whatever.  Or an artist is drawing.  I dunno.

[Lizzie]

I think if you have a book in public, and you are looking at it in public, that should be a red flag.  A piece of parchment, maybe not as much.  It gets a bit more convoluted if GMH people are making trade marks, or whatever.  Or an artist is drawing.  I dunno.

I think that makes some sense - but only if you are literate. And to Nathvaan - thanks for explaining your thoughts about it - I think - if the soldiers would know the difference, then there would be an echo when you read something, that everyone else can see. Is that a practical addition to the script? In other words:

read parchment
returns to the room:

[The tressy-tressed woman appears to be examining a plain piece of parchment with particular interest.]

read book
[The tall handsome man is totes reading his book.]

And if you don't have literacy on your skill list at all, you wouldn't get crimflagged. Conversely - if you have greater than 80% mastery in literacy of *that* language - you have a chance of not being crimflagged.

Why: because people who are fully literate can read without making it REALLY obvious that they're reading. People who aren't fully literate might need to use their finger under the word - remember how you were when you first learned to read - compared to reading a screen scroll in a combat scene in Arm.

[Nathvaan]

Lizzie - I won't be getting that granular with this change but I appreciate your opinion and will keep it in mind if I do any future changes to this type of thing.

[nauta]

The real question: are the Kuraci soldiers gonna bitch about moving the jails closer to the criminals?

[Nathvaan]

The real question: are the Kuraci soldiers gonna bitch about moving the jails closer to the criminals?

I would be remiss were I not to include that part! Soldiers bitch about that no matter where they are at!

[Evilone]

Love the changes, except im skeptical on getting wanted for reading in public. Personally I think that should be a job for PC militia to investigate from other PC reports, but I doubt its going to matter much anyway cause I can't recall if I've ever seen a commoner trying to read IG before.

[BadSkeelz]

At least there aren't any goddamn half-giant soldiers in Luir's.

I feel like the literacy talk is mostly hot air, if only because literacy is a rare thing. That said, I'm in agreement with Lizzie that making Reading a crime opens up a whole can of worms. I would be perfectly fine restricting Writing to CODED criminality. If a half-giant is somehow trained to "know" what someone reading looks like, I think learning to read upside down would be a viable countermeasure. Half-giants are stupid.

Reading and writing, under the umbrella crime of "Literacy" should both be illegal of course.

[Twilight]

Um.


Someone is making markings on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take him to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Seems like reasonable training.

Someone is looking at some marks on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take her to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Also seems like reasonable training.

Not like there is probably cause or even that you need to be doing anything wrong for soldiers to haul you away.

[BadSkeelz]

As long as I can make a bunch of random scribbles, then plant them on people so they get hauled off to jail.

On a serious note, have any changes been done to let soldier-NPCs subdue people in combat? A lot of PCs get killed because they're either in combat, or resist subdue, and the NPCs resort to lethal force.

[Lizzie]

Um.


Someone is making markings on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take him to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Seems like reasonable training.

Someone is looking at some marks on paper that aren't pictures that I can immediately understand.  I am going to take her to jail and let a templar look at the markings.

Also seems like reasonable training.

Not like there is probably cause or even that you need to be doing anything wrong for soldiers to haul you away.

That would make 100% sense, EXCEPT: typing "look paper" does NOT crim-flag you. Someone looking at marks on paper that aren't pictures will NOT cause you to be taken to jail.

This is a conflict of the code. The code is dictating that there is a VISIBLE difference, that is visible to other people, between "look" and "read." And yet, there is no echo to reflect this VISIBLE difference. You can get jailed for something that no one can see you doing.

[Dar]

please remind me. If you 'look scroll', are you going to be given what's written on it? Or do you need to specifically type "read scroll" to read it.

Cant we just assume that if you look scroll, then the scroll is in a folded/rolled up state, while if you 'read scroll', you unroll it and flatten it to read it?

[Lizzie]

please remind me. If you 'look scroll', are you going to be given what's written on it? Or do you need to specifically type "read scroll" to read it.

Cant we just assume that if you look scroll, then the scroll is in a folded/rolled up state, while if you 'read scroll', you unroll it and flatten it to read it?

LOOK will give you the description of the scroll itself, and will indicate whether or not something is written on it. If you are literate, you'll see which language the writing is in.
READ will show you what is actually written on it.

You can LOOK at a scroll after its been opened, and you can seal a scroll, codedly. You can unseal it and look at it without reading it. You can open and close books and look at them without reading them. You can also read them. Both are coded features of the game. Neither of them are "visible" to anyone other than the person doing the reading/looking. And yet - soldiers can take you to jail for doing it.

[Kalden]

I think ideally soldiers would not be super hyper-vigilant and everpresent about literacy - it would be fairly chance-oriented, perhaps with a skill that could increase your chance of reading discreetly.

Not to derail (and tried a search but didn't see anything), but... if a hooded figure with a facewrap is caught by the crime code, does their sdesc show up? Because if it does, isn't that kind of a bug, in that it doesn't fit with an explanation that can be adequately roleplayed? Maybe this would better fit in a new topic.

I may have known this, but since I took a 5-year break I forget. In Shadows of Isildur, the other RPI I used to play, I believe that the sdesc did not show up. You could also get a hidden mdesc and other cool stuff there.

[Nathvaan]

Not to derail (and tried a search but didn't see anything), but... if a hooded figure with a facewrap is caught by the crime code, does their sdesc show up? Because if it does, isn't that kind of a bug, in that it doesn't fit with an explanation that can be adequately roleplayed? Maybe this would better fit in a new topic.

Does their sdesc show up where exactly?  When they are arrested it wouldn't show up, nor would it when the templar questions them.  It might show up after the templar has them remove the hood and facewrap though!  If you feel there is a bug, please feel free to put in a bug report and I will be happy to look into it.

[Kalden]

Oh, I meant in the wanted list that the law enforcement can check. Haven't really played law enforcement characters in Armageddon in probably literally over a decade so I don't know much about how it works.

[Nathvaan]

While I like the read/write changes (especially if it's just one step closer to more-common-but-still-illegal literacy) I'm curious if it's a crime to read/write in Red Storm and Luirs Outpost as well as Allanak/Tuluk? If so, why? What interest would these smaller communities have in enforcing a totalitarian ban on literacy?

This i'm curious about, too.

Red Storm.  The Sand Lord presumably wants to keep his subjects ignorant to be better able to lord over them.  Kurac needs to walk the line between Nak and Tuluk. it would be very bad business to go around flaunting reading and writing.  That stuff gets back to the cities in real poser and then previous deals could be unstuck.  It is in the interest of all the 'have' to make sure all the 'have nots' stay that way.

[Incognito]

If we're banking on the premise that a random AoD soldier errs on the side of caution and arrests anyone who "appears" to be reading or writing, can we make it such that they will only do so if they are present in the same room as the target?

I dont find it realistic that someone from afar could/would/might make out what you're doing with a piece of paper. Similarly, I dont find it realistic if the crim-flag gets auto-set no matter where you read in Allanak. And finally, can we make it so that if someone does actually read or write something in the privacy of an enclosed indoors place that is NOT public, s/he does not get auto-crim-flagged?

Assuming that this issue is of such importance that it warrants actual code-based retribution, lets try and make it as realistic as possible, even though we're going with the assumption that low-rung guards will always err on the side of caution and arrest first, ask questions later.

[nauta]

As a historical note, there's a quote from Augustine (let's see if I can find it) where he marvels at St. Ambrose for being able to read without moving his lips.  It would seem that from the invention of literacy proper (which pissed Socrates and Plato off, since they worried it would cause the youngsters to not bother memorizing anything -- oh if they could see Google Memory) up until the 5th or 6th century (and even later according to historians), it was VERY common to move your lips while reading.

So, all that to say, you -could- make the 'read' code echo out something about moving your lips and whispering the words while looking over the page.  And -that- would certainly raise a few eyebrows.

HERE!

http://linguafranca.mirror.theinfo.org/9804/ip.html

ETA: Hehe, I just thought of a noble reading over Gif's Book of Magickal Fireball Incantations, out loud.  Poof!

[LauraMars]

Heh, interesting. I wonder if people who say they "hear words" in their heads when they read are some kind of vestigial evolutionary holdover of lip movements while reading.

[Riev]

Thank you for the update, may I never need to invoke this code on my PCs!

So long as the "look book" vs "read book" issue has granularity of some kind, I think its fine. Typically, if you're holding a book, someone's going to want to get a Templar involved anyway. This seems more of a "Merchant Houses, watch your ass" sort of thing.

[Reiloth]

Heh, interesting. I wonder if people who say they "hear words" in their heads when they read are some kind of vestigial evolutionary holdover of lip movements while reading.

It's funny, I hear words in my head when I read. Am I an evolutionary holdover?!?!?

[Feco]

Love dis shit right here.

[Reiloth]

OK, some actual questions about the Luir's Crime Code aspect of the changelog.

1. What rank of Kuraci has the ability to imprison people, in the Fist and in the Agent/Merchant Branch? Do all family members, regardless of rank, have the ability to pardon/imprison?

2. Will the NPC kerfuffle be alleviated as well? Is this what is referenced with the 'NPCs who are doing other jobs will not participate'? By kerfuffle I mean NPCs in the tavern attacking PCs who are being subdued/arrested, attacking each other, attacking Kuraci, and so on.

3. Are the laws in Luir's different than in Allanak/Tuluk? Do they have the same timers, say, for theft? I mean codedly, I know that the actual IC laws are different in some respects.

[Jingo]

Any progress on that replicating NPC code? That loves to produce twice the soldiers for twice the fun?

[Nathvaan]

OK, some actual questions about the Luir's Crime Code aspect of the changelog.

1. What rank of Kuraci has the ability to imprison people, in the Fist and in the Agent/Merchant Branch? Do all family members, regardless of rank, have the ability to pardon/imprison?

2. Will the NPC kerfuffle be alleviated as well? Is this what is referenced with the 'NPCs who are doing other jobs will not participate'? By kerfuffle I mean NPCs in the tavern attacking PCs who are being subdued/arrested, attacking each other, attacking Kuraci, and so on.

3. Are the laws in Luir's different than in Allanak/Tuluk? Do they have the same timers, say, for theft? I mean codedly, I know that the actual IC laws are different in some respects.

1. This information has been given to the Kuraci so they know who gets what.  As far as who is immune and whom, that hasn't changed at all.  Sorry to be so vague but the average non-kuraci would not know how the structure works but that said it hasn't really changed much.

2. Yes this should be resolved.  The NPCs will swarm but once the criminal is subdued they will not attack. The interactions between different parts of the code with regards to crim code is convoluted at best so it is possible there will be some bugs to work out. 

What I meant by that statement is we added a way to effectively tell a soldier that they are to stay out of arresting/attacking (unless attacked) because they have other duties.  Let the other soldiers handle it. For instance, a gate guard shouldn't leave his post or the well guard shouldn't leave the well because his -one- job is to lower that bucket!  There were ways to make this happen but they were complicated so this more succinct method was added.

3. Currently yes the general function of the code is the same with regards to timers and the likes.  Of course if it needs to be changed in the future that will be possible but for now things are nearly identical.   One obvious difference in the laws remains; It is still totally legal to smoke some spice in Luir's.

[Nathvaan]

Any progress on that replicating NPC code? That loves to produce twice the soldiers for twice the fun?

I think you are referring to when sometimes NPCs are duplicated?  If so, nope.  This change won't have much if any affect on that 'feature'.

[Raptor_Dan]

Can I just say how refreshing it is to have the staff of an RPI/MUD react to critiques of code changes with 'That makes sense,'? I mean, I've played a lot of different games, and most of the times when things about code, or the structure of the world gets discussed, too often I see a litany of responses that become more convoluted as the argument goes on, all in attempt to justify something that doesn't seem to fit right, eventually resulting in, typically, the thread being locked after the respective staff just says, 'Well if you don't like it, go some place else.'

I absolutely love the fact that rational discussions can actually be had about the way things work, instead of being instantly shut down or aggressively debated with.

[Lizzie]

Agreed with Raptor_Dan. Thanks Nathvaan for "listening" to our opinions and "getting" our concerns. I still disagree with the need for a "reading" crim-flag, but I totally appreciate your discussion of the change.

[Jihelu]

"There is also the cultural association between those who write and sorcery. Though this isn't really reflected in our docs and is a holdover from Dark Sun where someone who wasn't a noble who had a book/writing was often strung up as a defiler."

So when are sorcerers going to start with reading/writing?

[nessalin]

"There is also the cultural association between those who write and sorcery. Though this isn't really reflected in our docs and is a holdover from Dark Sun where someone who wasn't a noble who had a book/writing was often strung up as a defiler."

So when are sorcerers going to start with reading/writing?

When did they stop?

[Reiloth]

"There is also the cultural association between those who write and sorcery. Though this isn't really reflected in our docs and is a holdover from Dark Sun where someone who wasn't a noble who had a book/writing was often strung up as a defiler."

So when are sorcerers going to start with reading/writing?

When did they stop?

[Jihelu]

"There is also the cultural association between those who write and sorcery. Though this isn't really reflected in our docs and is a holdover from Dark Sun where someone who wasn't a noble who had a book/writing was often strung up as a defiler."

So when are sorcerers going to start with reading/writing?

When did they stop?

Arrested for heresy

[Molten Heart]

.