The Massive Conflict Thread

[Lizzie]

When it comes down to it Fathi, the basic function of the Merchant Houses is to provide consistent quality products to the masses. They also serve as a platform upon which the mighty and fancified can strut their noble stuff. ANYone can now mastercraft, thanks to the master crafting subguilds. I really don't like this, because I sincerely believe it dilutes the primary function of the GMHs, when any Byn mercenary, Militia, or Kuraci Sergeant can mastercraft their own House's livery. However, this IS how it is. Anyone can do what Kadius and Salarr do, now. Unless the staff choose to re-evaluate and restore Merchant_guild to being THE master crafters of the game, we're stuck with the dilution.

Since it's been diluted, the GMHs (Salarr and Kadius specifically) are no longer as "premier" as they used to be. It used to be, an individual merchant could crop up, and build a crew, and BE a merchant, while his crew did their crew things. That was the only way to be a merchant outside of the GMHs. This is no longer true. With the sole exception of authorized use of wagons, there is nothing a GMH Junior Merchant can do, that a Byn recruit can't do.

So blow up Kadius, and HAVE a battle to replace them. Make it last a few game decades. While that's happening, you'll STILL get your purple and orange jewel-encrusted wickedly sharp razor-etched dildo of deth and destruction, because there will be a dozen Byn recruits waiting to master-craft it for you.

Also just noticed this at the bottom of your post:

But I think it would be shitty from a gameplay perspective if PKing the right people could result in a complete and utter absence of a Kadius-type entity until someone could build all that up enough to be considered the new dude in town. That could take RL months.

I don't think it'd be shitty at all from a game-play perspective.

But I started playing when playable the only thing I knew about "the north" was that it consisted primarily of Freil's Rest, owned and operated by Kadius, and Tuluk had been recently sacked and was mostly just an enormous crater of burnt-out rubble and ruins.

You didn't hear much complaint about an utter absence of anything, really. It was too exciting to notice that Amos Salarr couldn't make you a fancy sword. If you needed a sword you'd take the best you could get. If it didn't come from Salarr, it really didn't matter at all.

[Dunetrade55]

Yeah and there's also no stopping a zero CGP player from rolling a merchant with the appropriate subguild to quickly fill the niche they perceive, well, except KADIUS.... AUGH!

EDIT: Look at it this way, your past experiences with Kadius or Salarr being unable to fill orders would no longer have to go through a huge, laborious process including staff picking and choosing sponsored roles, and some player bored with their current combat role could be like, you know what? I can do that, and I /WANT/ to do that, and specifically that, to fill this niche, instead of I want to walk into the game with boosted social status and skill ranks... not saying some sponsored role players aren't capable of mastercrafting you some fine goods, but wouldn't you want someone who wants the job solely for the sake of making the things you want, than someone who feels obligated to step in and "make the world more real" for everyone by following the roles as they're currently documented?

Wouldn't upward player mobility, and the potential conflict and resolution ahead, be worthy of the sacrifices? Can we not count on our fellow players to want to make sexy, bejewelled dresses, which they'd be otherwise unable to do without managing some status in house X? Don't we want to see them out there FIGHTING over the chance to do it for you, and better than the other person? The question is, what do we want? All-powerful monopolies render a lot of potential plots and pursuits dead before the door even opens. It's time to pick up the priorities and give them a really painful amount of inspection.

[Miradus]

I hadn't thought about it like that but yeah, subguilds can mastercraft. That does sort of diminish the pure merchant role.

I think it's also something to consider that these GMH institutions aren't just stationary targets waiting for you to plot against them. They aren't Costco; they're the Medici. You want to try to take over then you're in the OLYMPICS of plotting.

If a random street mugger killed Mark Zuckerberg tomorrow then they don't make him the next CEO of Facebook. He goes to jail and the #2 guy steps up. And in Zalanthas, you're going to have to BE somebody in order to have a chance at taking over. And if you are somebody, then you're now a target too as you begin to maneuver.

Uneasy is the head that wears the crown, so they say.

[Lizzie]

I hadn't thought about it like that but yeah, subguilds can mastercraft. That does sort of diminish the pure merchant role.

I think it's also something to consider that these GMH institutions aren't just stationary targets waiting for you to plot against them. They aren't Costco; they're the Medici. You want to try to take over then you're in the OLYMPICS of plotting.

If a random street mugger killed Mark Zuckerberg tomorrow then they don't make him the next CEO of Facebook. He goes to jail and the #2 guy steps up. And in Zalanthas, you're going to have to BE somebody in order to have a chance at taking over. And if you are somebody, then you're now a target too as you begin to maneuver.

Uneasy is the head that wears the crown, so they say.

However, if you hack the Facebook server and turn all the datafiles into random integers, and then blow up their corporate headquarters, and find out where their cloud server is located and blow that up too - then Facebook will cease to exist. And SOMEONE will be vying to take its place. You don't even have to kill Zuckerberg. You just have to eliminate his primary resources.

[Miradus]

Um, ok. Sure?

That's not exactly an easy endeavor. Frankly, you do the Arm equivalent of all of that then you probably deserve your own house.

But as a single player operating alone, you're not even going to be able to touch the vNPC world. You can't just wave your hand and say, "I wiped out all the vNPC spice sifters so now I control the spice flow."

[Dunetrade55]

Um, ok. Sure?

That's not exactly an easy endeavor. Frankly, you do the Arm equivalent of all of that then you probably deserve your own house.

But as a single player operating alone, you're not even going to be able to touch the vNPC world. You can't just wave your hand and say, "I wiped out all the vNPC spice sifters so now I control the spice flow."

Exactly, and this is what stops conflict dead in its tracks. You can't really have conflict in such an environment without staff giving it the go-ahead beforehand, you can't see player actions actually impacting the game world, and all of what does go on mostly goes on behind closed doors, and the status quo is largely maintained. No one but the sponsored roles really feels a part of anything "meaningful" and all that happens is some PCs die and nobody ever talks about it.

[Miradus]

I guess after 6 pages I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore.

[Delirium]

After 6 pages, I don't envy staff the task of finding the happy medium.

[Dunetrade55]

After 6 pages, I don't envy staff the task of finding the happy medium.

How can there be a happy medium when what's been established is the Incredible Hulk and the rest of us are stuck just playing variants of Ernest P. Whorl? That's not conducive to conflict, tragic comedy, maybe.

[Delirium]

Well, I do trust them to know what is and isn't hyperbole

[Dunetrade55]

Well, I do trust them to know what is and isn't hyperbole

Know what I mean, Vern? I don't trust them, but then, I don't trust anyone. I'm simply pointing to the scales any of us can look at and see that massive leap that leaves one position unassailable, and the next in the dust. People should misccalucate leaps and get screwed at times, but the scales are always significantly tilted and there's no room for shaking anything up without everything coming down on your head. For a MMH, for example, you have to find a niche. Since the closing of some roles, there are more niches to fill, yet, these are still signiicantly limiting. Anyone else who wants a niche after the first is taken is significantly limited.

I do love the game, however, and I trust staff and my fellow players to do that much. But if you want conflict, invincible monopolies will not encourage any kind of conflict.

[Delirium]

I've been a fan of lowering the glass ceiling for a long time, but there also needs to be some continuity.

I've been seeing a decent amount of low-level conflict, though it would be cool to have some world-spanning conflict going on as well.

[Inks]

I have seen no shortage of conflict in the last 6 months but it may depend on your role/ location so I am interested in this thread.

[Lizzie]

Um, ok. Sure?

That's not exactly an easy endeavor. Frankly, you do the Arm equivalent of all of that then you probably deserve your own house.

But as a single player operating alone, you're not even going to be able to touch the vNPC world. You can't just wave your hand and say, "I wiped out all the vNPC spice sifters so now I control the spice flow."

That is precisely how some of the current, existing houses in Armageddon were created. That's what I want to see again. The chance to do exactly that.

[Miradus]

Why could an independent merchant not do something unique?

(Just for example)

Like he discovers how to make clockwork springs out of mekillot bones that are powerful enough to move a small wagon forward.

The plot then moves forward as he tries to come up with ways to protect his designs from people who are vastly more powerful than he is.

I don't see why the impetus has to be on taking something existing and trying to steal it. Is there no mechanism by which new things can be added?

Over the past year I've watched (from multiple characters) as a certain trade group became a thing. While they're not a GMH, they certainly wield a lot of "soft power" in the game world. And over time soft power tends to become hard power.

[Dunetrade55]

Why could an independent merchant not do something unique?

(Just for example)

Like he discovers how to make clockwork springs out of mekillot bones that are powerful enough to move a small wagon forward.

The plot then moves forward as he tries to come up with ways to protect his designs from people who are vastly more powerful than he is.

I don't see why the impetus has to be on taking something existing and trying to steal it. Is there no mechanism by which new things can be added?

Over the past year I've watched (from multiple characters) as a certain trade group became a thing. While they're not a GMH, they certainly wield a lot of "soft power" in the game world. And over time soft power tends to become hard power.

Clockwork springs? I know it's just an example, but that that's the best you can come up with is evidence that there's simply no room to manuever. Won't discuss the recent thing because it's too recent, but in my opinion it's not a particularly good example to cite (though they are/were awesome). You're missing the point, there is absolutely NO room for an indie merchant to make anything of value without being shut down by one of the houses. But hell if you can mastercraft a grandfather clock and get it accepted, by all means do so.

[Riev]

As far as that's concerned... a LOT of times (in Arm History at least), an established group won't simply snuff out the competition. They want their coin. They want the design. They want the mind. Usually they offer to buy out the company, or the design, or try to force the inventor into their ranks so they can have it all.

SOMETIMES, making sure they get a huge cut of the profits is enough to make them go away. They'll let you have your little stall in the Bazaar so long as they're getting coin off you one way or another.

The struggle comes in, I believe, when you have to pay off the Templarate (plus Trade Ministry probably), the Guild, the Merchant Houses... and they all want HUGE cuts of your profits, to the point where you're -not- making a profit anymore. It sucks, but its how the monopoly of Merchant Houses came about.

[Miradus]

Grandfather clock?

No, my idea was actually for wagons to be propelled by mainsprings carved from mekillot bones, wound by half-giants using bahamet ligaments which turn wheels made only from silt horror shells.

These wagons would then be propelled around the Pah. Imagine the intense conflict scenes of you, the indie merchant, cruising along the crumbling road while dodging pits, gith, and wagon-loads of desert elves painted white try to jump onto your wagon and engage you in melee.

Still waiting to hear back on that request. I'll let you know!

[Miradus]

As far as that's concerned... a LOT of times (in Arm History at least), an established group won't simply snuff out the competition. They want their coin. They want the design. They want the mind. Usually they offer to buy out the company, or the design, or try to force the inventor into their ranks so they can have it all.

SOMETIMES, making sure they get a huge cut of the profits is enough to make them go away. They'll let you have your little stall in the Bazaar so long as they're getting coin off you one way or another.

The struggle comes in, I believe, when you have to pay off the Templarate (plus Trade Ministry probably), the Guild, the Merchant Houses... and they all want HUGE cuts of your profits, to the point where you're -not- making a profit anymore. It sucks, but its how the monopoly of Merchant Houses came about.

Dude. Have you ever started your own business? Because that's pretty much MBA level business right there.

I operate out of my house. Technically, all of my profit comes out of my own mind and from an old easy-chair I got at a garage sale. There are no employees, no materials consumed, and no carbon emissions (except on Taco Tuesdays). Yet the county charges me a business fee, the bank charges me a business fee, the state of Texas charges me sales tax, and the Federal government at the end of the year charges me a couple of thousand bucks for the privilege of existing.

And if I ever refuse to pay then each of those entities will send the Arm of the Dragon, oops, I mean law enforcement, to come and either imprison me or collect by force.

The reality is that I think of something and put it down on paper and then some other guy somewhere says, "Hey, that's mildly entertaining and I'll pay money for it." At which point a thousand official hands appear out of thin air and start grabbing chunks out of the money.

[Dunetrade55]

Grandfather clock?

No, my idea was actually for wagons to be propelled by mainsprings carved from mekillot bones, wound by half-giants using bahamet ligaments which turn wheels made only from silt horror shells.

These wagons would then be propelled around the Pah. Imagine the intense conflict scenes of you, the indie merchant, cruising along the crumbling road while dodging pits, gith, and wagon-loads of desert elves painted white try to jump onto your wagon and engage you in melee.

Still waiting to hear back on that request. I'll let you know!

If you are ever ambushed by a wagon-load of elves, I suggest filing a complaint of some sort. Otherwise, good luck.

[Lizzie]

As far as that's concerned... a LOT of times (in Arm History at least), an established group won't simply snuff out the competition. They want their coin. They want the design. They want the mind. Usually they offer to buy out the company, or the design, or try to force the inventor into their ranks so they can have it all.

SOMETIMES, making sure they get a huge cut of the profits is enough to make them go away. They'll let you have your little stall in the Bazaar so long as they're getting coin off you one way or another.

The struggle comes in, I believe, when you have to pay off the Templarate (plus Trade Ministry probably), the Guild, the Merchant Houses... and they all want HUGE cuts of your profits, to the point where you're -not- making a profit anymore. It sucks, but its how the monopoly of Merchant Houses came about.

Dude. Have you ever started your own business? Because that's pretty much MBA level business right there.

I operate out of my house. Technically, all of my profit comes out of my own mind and from an old easy-chair I got at a garage sale. There are no employees, no materials consumed, and no carbon emissions (except on Taco Tuesdays). Yet the county charges me a business fee, the bank charges me a business fee, the state of Texas charges me sales tax, and the Federal government at the end of the year charges me a couple of thousand bucks for the privilege of existing.

And if I ever refuse to pay then each of those entities will send the Arm of the Dragon, oops, I mean law enforcement, to come and either imprison me or collect by force.

The reality is that I think of something and put it down on paper and then some other guy somewhere says, "Hey, that's mildly entertaining and I'll pay money for it." At which point a thousand official hands appear out of thin air and start grabbing chunks out of the money.

And then Walmart hires a company out of China who can manufacture a duplicate of the stuff you make, at pennies on the dollar. Then, they buy the property next to yours, and sell the exact same stuff you make for less than half of what you *pay* for raw materials because they buy in bulk - as in - millions of pieces, while you're still tooling away with your hundreds.

That is the reality of Armageddon GMHs vs the independent "awesome item that people actually want to buy" merchant.

[Dunetrade55]

As far as that's concerned... a LOT of times (in Arm History at least), an established group won't simply snuff out the competition. They want their coin. They want the design. They want the mind. Usually they offer to buy out the company, or the design, or try to force the inventor into their ranks so they can have it all.

SOMETIMES, making sure they get a huge cut of the profits is enough to make them go away. They'll let you have your little stall in the Bazaar so long as they're getting coin off you one way or another.

The struggle comes in, I believe, when you have to pay off the Templarate (plus Trade Ministry probably), the Guild, the Merchant Houses... and they all want HUGE cuts of your profits, to the point where you're -not- making a profit anymore. It sucks, but its how the monopoly of Merchant Houses came about.

Dude. Have you ever started your own business? Because that's pretty much MBA level business right there.

I operate out of my house. Technically, all of my profit comes out of my own mind and from an old easy-chair I got at a garage sale. There are no employees, no materials consumed, and no carbon emissions (except on Taco Tuesdays). Yet the county charges me a business fee, the bank charges me a business fee, the state of Texas charges me sales tax, and the Federal government at the end of the year charges me a couple of thousand bucks for the privilege of existing.

And if I ever refuse to pay then each of those entities will send the Arm of the Dragon, oops, I mean law enforcement, to come and either imprison me or collect by force.

The reality is that I think of something and put it down on paper and then some other guy somewhere says, "Hey, that's mildly entertaining and I'll pay money for it." At which point a thousand official hands appear out of thin air and start grabbing chunks out of the money.

And then Walmart hires a company out of China who can manufacture a duplicate of the stuff you make, at pennies on the dollar. Then, they buy the property next to yours, and sell the exact same stuff you make for less than half of what you *pay* for raw materials because they buy in bulk - as in - millions of pieces, while you're still tooling away with your hundreds.

That is the reality of Armageddon GMHs vs the independent "awesome item that people actually want to buy" merchant.

That's about right, except Armageddon's Wal-mart starts by murdering your family as you watch, then boards you up inside and burns your house down... THEN they make that super-awesome thing and totally tell everyone it was their idea to begin with.

EDIT: Can't skip the formalities, you know? They're still paying pennies on the dollar but now they're overcharging massively because they have no competition. It's like trying to get reasonably priced internet in the USA.

[Miradus]

Thank you for choosing a GMH to mastercraft your items. That'll be eleventy billion sid. Oh? You'll get an indie to do it? Can't find any indies? That's too bad.



I find the situation extremely realistic. Which is to say it makes me want to chop someone in the face with a mekillot's sharpened hip bone. Kind of like when I have to go to town to pay my internet provider because they don't accept payments online.

[Twilight]

Lets not confuse conflict with achievement, and less so with success.

It is quite possible to have conflict with a GMH.  But given the game world, one really should not expect some sort of achievement in supplanting a GMH, or even significantly damaging it.  One has to go into certain conflicts expecting that they won't succeed.

As long as your goal is conflict, that is fine.  If your goal is actually some sort of achievement, or success, then you are really interested in something different than conflict.

This isn't some Marvel Universe where our characters are heroes.  Our characters are like those in the Walking Dead, except all the main characters that actually stay alive are NPCs (or GMH, Noble Houses, etc if you like that analogy), and we are all the other characters, living, dead and sometimes undead.

[Miradus]

An interesting point Twilight just made.

Without conflict, isn't achievement meaningless?

"Oh, Gandalf! It's an evil ring? What can be done?"

"Well I can cast this spell and make it vanish. POOF. See? Done."

"Thanks, Gandalf! Sure glad we didn't have to walk across the known world being pursued by Ringwraiths, fighting orcs, and climbing mount doom. That would have been a lot of conflict. Now. When's second breakfast?"