Overly Concerned with Skills?

[The Lonely Hunter]

Hey folks. I tend to avoid reading too much in the GDB (with the exception of clan boards) but once and awhile, every couple of years I guess, I get an itch and dig in a bit. Heck, I don't even speak with anyone from the game OOC so maybe I'm just anti-social.

I have the first post under General Discussion - I've been around a long time but I have a relatively low post count. The point is that I'm a creeper, I observe. I have no shame.

Now since that is out of the way.

Recently I have really dug and have been reading a lot of the GDB. I noticed a lot of posts about skills. People seem to post and speak about skills now in a much more casual way than how we used to. Heck, it used to be kind of taboo. Skills were secondary. My recent impression from skimming topics and posts is that there is a large number of people who see skills much differently these days - mostly newer players (<5 years) I would say but who knows. The number of posts talking about skills seems quite large. Heck, there's even a recent post about someone talking about explaining how the code works IC at length. Granted, some is code knowledge is particular roles is needed to play the game without being completely tooled. But I feel that there has been an overemphasis on it lately.

I wonder if this trend of being so worried about skills is a newer generation (I'll call them the Tuluk generation because I'm a mean man) or simply the evolution of the game, for better or worse?

How important are skills and skill knowledge to you?

Are we as a community too concerned with mechanics?

Can you tell a difference from when you started playing Arm? If so, how long have you been playing?

Edited to add: I intended the post to be a contrast of skills vs RP but I went off a bit from my original goal. This post may be better served in General Discussion. Sorry, folks!

[bardlyone]

Skills for me as an explorer playing a combat guild are only as important as getting to the point where I can go and explore without getting facerolled by the wildlife at every turn.

Skills to me as a merchant/crafter are only as important as being able to make the stuff I'm looking to make money on.

Skills to me as an assassin (never done burglar or pick pocket - or warrior for that matter - none of those seem appealing to me) are only as important as being able to skulk around without being seen. I've never actually pked someone with a mundane pc so obviously for me, the stealth aspect is more important than the combat aspect with this role niche.

As to the specifics.... meh. As to other people... couldn't say.

[Lutagar]

There's been this feeling (justified or not) among the player based for a while now that it's utterly impossible to achieve or change anything in Zalanthas.

If you buy into the bartle taxonomy of players, this would mean code and character to character relationships is all killers/achievers can actually invest time into and see returns on.

Explorers will most likely have found most everything there is to find after a few decently long lived rangers. The newest administration seems alot more willing to accommodate player efforts and start plots, so I'm fairly optimistic we might see the focus mellow some.

[John]

Hey Lonely Hunter! I remember you.

1. Some people have always been concerned about skills. I don't think it's simply the newer generation. However where before it was spoken privately on AIM among a subset of the community and was officially considered cheating, it is now spoken about publicly on forum(s) by a greater subset of the community and is now viewed as acceptable.
2. I'll admit I have perused the skill trees of the mundane guilds and do use that knowledge when selecting my guild and Subguild. Beyond that, it's not overly important (I certainly don't spend 4 months grinding a character before finally "play for realz" as some posters here and elsewhere advocate).
3. Yes, the community at large have become too concerned by skills. A certain portion of our community have pushed the idea that you must have X rank in skills A, B and C before you can have fun. They've done it both here and elsewhere. New players see these posts and treat this as the new normal. Frankly shouting down these posters is something I don't have energy for most times and there seems to be less of us bothering. The fact that skill ranks are now viewed IC only exacerbates the problem and promotes this mindset. Alas it's too late to put that genie back in the bottle and we're now stuck with the sins from pandora a box.
4. IG: No. On the forums: Yes. The enjoyment I get from reading the GDB is greatly diminished as a result (thankfully none of it has seeped into the game for me). I started playing in 2002.

I'll go back to my grognard corner now.

[Lizzie]

I deleted a REALLY long post because I was getting more and more annoyed the more I wrote. So I'll just chime in to say I agree 100% with John. I've been playing as long as he has (I think we showed up the same month).

My tl;dr on the post I didn't actually post:
People want to break the rules and be "that one who's different." I get that. But you need time to learn what the rules ARE before you should try and break them, or you end up doing stupid shit that ruins it for everyone else.

I got "the map" just like most of you do, and like most of you who've been playing for a LONG time - I didn't get it in my first month of play. I had to learn some of the game first - before "those who had it" felt I could be trusted with it. Learn the rules before you learn how to break them. If you just give them the cheat-sheet you are depriving them of the ability to learn the rules first. You're just going right over to "here - you can cheat, don't bother learning the rules."

And I think that's what's hurting the game most.

[Riev]

Skills are important. We're still playing a MUD here, and some people have to be concerned about skills in the same way a government has to be concerned about long range missile defense. Whether YOU want to use LRBMs or not, you certainly have to understand what they are capable of to defend yourself against people who WILL use them.


Honestly, I think the "We need skills for <x>" attitude is waning, because we've scared away and pushed off most of the code-focused players. Whether its due to banning for twinking, or having the "gameworld react" when they do something code-focused, they slowly leak away from the game.

I think its important to understand that the GDB is NOT the game. Most people are not representing their true personalities in game, whereas the GDB might be a different story. I focus on code a LOT, perhaps less than I used to, but I know many players who get into more shit and storyline from chargen than I ever will on a 50d warrior.

Where I take offense is that, because of this, I don't "play the game properly" or "am doing it wrong" because its not in line with what (the general) YOU think I should be doing. Focus on your RP, I bet you're going to want an assassin with high backstab to follow through with some of your plans, and no fucking Noble is going to be PLEASED with a PC that tried and failed an assassination. You can only be "that guy" so many times before its just ASKING to be a victim in an already harsh world.

[John]

I don't think anyone is saying skills aren't important. But play a character generally IC (as opposed to hunting down the 1 NPC that is optimal to increase skills X, Y and Z and revisit them every X minutes regardless of the IC hour) and they generally advance at a reasonable rate with little effort. You might not branch advanced warrior weapons in 4 months, but you will see significant improvement. I always see the Byn structure as a good rule of thumb for IC activities (get to where you need to be to do job X by morning, work for a couple of IC hours, take a break, work for a couple more than relaxe over night).

[Miradus]

I'm pretty skills focused. I enjoy the sense of achievement presented by skills. If I wanted to play a MUSH, well, there's plenty with settings I might enjoy more. It's the harsh survival code of Armageddon I really like.

That said, I enjoy roleplaying the skills ARC. Where when you start out trying to kill a skeet, fall off your mount and lose half your hp before the fight is over, but later on you're taking down drov beetles without a single wound. The roleplay of BECOMING a badass is a lot of fun. More fun than it would be just being a hardcoded badass from the beginning.

I know there are plenty who just want to play "digital dolls" and sit around and roleplay without actually ever doing anything, and that's fine. A good setting needs those people too. But it also needs achievers/explorers who DO care about things such as coded power.

[Riev]

I know there are plenty who just want to play "digital dolls" and sit around and roleplay without actually ever doing anything, and that's fine. A good setting needs those people too. But it also needs achievers/explorers who DO care about things such as coded power.

I wrote before having to leave for work, but this is where I was trying to get.

We have plenty of cabbages, dune traders, and others who I would suggest are those wonderful types of players that seem to get into some great experiences and personal plotlines by 5days played and really give people someone to like, or hate.

We also have plenty of synthesis, and 'I don't post' players that are really good at understanding the code, and use it to their, and their bosses, advantages. The twink assassins, the rangers that seem to know where EVERYTHING is, the helpful halfgiant. Social roles need these tools to assist accomplishing their goals.

It takes all kinds, and the most vocal tend to be the ones trying to understand their coded abilities and limitations. The social players don't tend to have 'complaints' or 'discussions' on anything besides potential gameworld reactions that don't end up being public GDB posts in the first place.

tl;dr - GDB is not representative of the entire playerbase.

[bardlyone]

Well put Reiv and Miradus, I think.

I don't see how anyone could possibly be at 5 days played and NOT embroiled in some serious shit, or otherwise heavily invested in plotlines/stories/relationships in some fashion. But I tend to be very dichotomous in my play.

I don't like the byn schedule. 20 minutes, 30 minutes, as time to rp where speech and emotes can be 3 minutes between, that's not time for SHIT. I tend to craft/hunt/skulk/skill/whatever for 2-3 IC days, changing up what I do in between, and RP for 2-3 IC days, in alternating stretches. Because that allows better for me to get embroiled in these things, and to cycle through ALL the things I want to work on improving. When crafting for instance, there's 1 particular craft that takes 5 minutes. That's 1/4 of your IG afternoon. Sensible for the gameworld as a time ratio goes, yes, but not really sensible if you're cycling through multiple things you want to improve at.

I want to be competent. I don't have to be the best. I want to be involved in plots and the game world. And usually use the skills I work on improving to help me do so. I don't find the time ratios of the byn schedule practical for all guilds trying to improve at things. Then, apparently there are people who regularly play only an hour or two a day. That's not me. For me, it's more like six, or eight.

My current character has existed less than 2 OOC weeks and is at nearly 5 days played. My time scale for all things that happen is a bit different than someone who is working on 1/6th or 1/8th of that.

And because I forgot to add it: First character was in 2006, first engaging and longer lived pc was in 2008.

[nauta]

I disagree with the top post.

I think the skills should be made more perspicuous in help files and examples, and I applaud efforts to make them more perspicuous. 

It is a code-based roleplaying game.  We need to work within the confines of code to do things in the world.  When things are great, the code is seamless.  When things are bad, the code gets in the way: you're stuck with an immersion breaking moment as you, once again, stand in the middle of the great eastern grasslands attempting to pick a lock, for no apparent reason.

[Hashi]

I certainly fall into the category of people who are too concerned about skills, as Staff recently sat me down to discuss.  However, how is RP enhanced by not preparing oneself for the layered deathtrap that is Zalanthas?  I had a ranger with master climb and a spike on who was involved in a lot of stuff who failed a climb check and fell to his death, thereby ending some plots that involved multiple tribes, etc.  Does that enhance RP?  Do I feel bad about the fact that I ran him up and down the walls of the Gaj to twink climb up?  No, I'd feel a lot worse about failing that climb check if I hadn't.

[tortall]

I just came back after about 2-3 years of not playing and I was pretty shocked to see that not only does "craft branch" show you what skill is required to make that item, it also tells you how difficult it would be to make it! I was also shocked all those years ago when what level you are in each skill was added. That was a HUGE deal.

This new piece does make it easier to figure out what I should be making to skill up, but does it make the game better or more code focused? Not sure yet.

I started playing sometime in 2001, I think late summer. Maybe it's the fact that I've been playing so long, or I just haven't been back long enough to notice, but I don't think people are more code focused than they were before. More opportunities to know where you stand, but I think the players are just as code focused as they were 15 years ago.

[Riev]

More opportunities to know where you stand, but I think the players are just as code focused as they were 15 years ago.

Oh, most certainly. Changes in staff attitudes and directions have clearly helped this, as mentioning that a skill even EXISTED usually ended with you face to face with an immortal or a temp-ban.

I think nostalgia and the "I had to walk to school uphill... BOTH WAYS... with barb wire wrapped around my feet because we couldn't afford boots" mentality affects a lot of the veterans. Because they had to do it some way, means nobody else should have it easier.

[Armaddict]

On my way out, saw that you posted and read it.

I remember you well.

Just wanted to chime in that essentially the ability to view skill levels fundamentally changed both the viewpoint and discussion of skills in a pretty drastic way over time.  I fought it for awhile, then gave in.  The ability to 'grind' skills is much more concrete now than it used to be...I used to assume I was 'master level' in combat the moment that I could start beating everyone I fought.  Now we have huge discussions based on being stuck at journeyman and not really caring that you're kicking everything's ass anyway.

I'm not free of it, but just wanted to say you're not crazy.  It has changed a great deal.  I used to not talk about it.  I used to not trust out of game anecdotes because there were so many different versions that went around that were different than mine.  Now, when I can, I try to actively disperse code knowledge and mechanics where allowed, because one of the major complaints of newer players is that veterans try to rig the system for their benefit.  I don't think this is the case; I think we just come from an era where dispersion of knowledge was a very hush hush, taboo thing to do.

[lostinspace]

Varies by character, once I'm successfully doing something 60% of the time I slow down. I've had characters where 90% of playing them was actually just leveling skills with only the barest of roleplay, and on the other hand I've had characters that just wanted to bum around and try to fall into as many plots as possible. I will say one of my favorite moments in the game is seeing a skill jump to master.

[Molten Heart]

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[John]

I think nostalgia and the "I had to walk to school uphill... BOTH WAYS... with barb wire wrapped around my feet because we couldn't afford boots" mentality affects a lot of the veterans. Because they had to do it some way, means nobody else should have it easier.

I absolutely love some of the changes, such as help files being more explicit about what skills are gained and how, or the crafting list telling you what skills are used and how difficult it is. I do honestly believe that showing your Proficiency level in a skill has fundamentally changed how many people perceive their character and how they approach the game. I think in many of these cases it is a change that isn't for the better. That said, I don't have brief skills on myself, so I'm certainly not immune.

[Bahliker]

  I wish this idea, that trying to "skill up" or power game a character is the opposite of role playing, would shrivel up and die. It's wrong. They go together just fine, and furthermore the transparency that Armageddon has gained over the years serves more to remove odd ic-disconnecting hurdles more than it serves the jollies of power gamers.
No matter the type of role playing game you're invested in, if it has any game mechanics whatsoever, you will have the exact same spectrum of players: On one end, some people will min-max and consider their numbers before anything, and on the other you have the people who just want a cool story, win or lose. If you want coded conflict, accept that some people are going to climb buildings for no reason than to get better at it. If you want storylines, accept that some people are going to throw their completely green non-warrior into the thick of a byn contract to play out the horrors of war or whatever, despite how mad that makes you that they threw away 3 AI's.
You get better at things by seeking challenges. The game works this way by design. So go find that npc that's impossible to shoot because one, you're going to get hella good at shooting (Arya chasing cats) and two, the pelts are probably kinda rare. If you see people doing weird things without any explanation, like planting and stealing the same object a dozen times on an npc, okay sure they're being a tool but who cares. Call on a Templar to show them how the game is really played. If somebody has an ic scene set up that shows them spamming something and you don't like it just because they're spamming a skill, that's kinda your problem. Only Daniel didn't like waxing that car and painting that fence for hours and hours and hours.

[Bahliker]

I also want to add, the only part of the remaining problem as I see it is the way skills branch. Sometimes it's not very organic and it's one place where unintentional transparency has had a negative impact on realistic PC behavior. But even this is small, so small that to change it for rp's sake would be an absurd trade off.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Thank you for the great feedback! I would like to point out that I don't feel you should ignore your skills, just not be overly concerned with them. I pay attention to mine as well but the level of which people seem to be completely obsessed with skills or focused entirely on them seems way higher than it used to be.

Just a little while ago a staff member had to make a comment about a player using an NPC is a sparring buddy, letting them know that this was not okay. A lot of people thought that this was perfectly fine before the staff member thankfully spoke up because of their perceived obsession over skills.

Too much attention to your skills seems to lead to a degradation of RP. I can't help but wonder how entwine  the two really are.

[Riev]

Thank you for the great feedback! I would like to point out that I don't feel you should ignore your skills, just not be overly concerned with them. I pay attention to mine as well but the level of which people seem to be completely obsessed with skills or focused entirely on them seems way higher than it used to be.

Just a little while ago a staff member had to make a comment about a player using an NPC is a sparring buddy, letting them know that this was not okay. A lot of people thought that this was perfectly fine before the staff member thankfully spoke up because of their perceived obsession over skills.

Too much attention to your skills seems to lead to a degradation of RP. I can't help but wonder how entwine  the two really are.

This is dangerous territory TLH. You don't KNOW that it causes anything, or that one is a symptom of the other, or how they are related.

Too much attention to skills and "poor RP" may be related. But I don't think it degrades from the RP. I've met and played with people I KNOW were either scripting, or utilizing twinky habits. Outside of those habits, their RP was actually very solid and on point, when dealing with other players.

Its a hard balance, sure, but "the way it used to be" is always golden. "The way it is now" is never as good.

[Armaddict]

I actually have no qualms with people playing with improvement of skills in mind.  I think that's altogether realistic in a lot of different cases.  I've also been making posts regarding how code is the way that we act, react, and interact with the autonomous, persistent world of Zalanthas.  Code knowledge = good, for that reason alone.

The different behavior I see towards skills is an increased focused on the grind, where the way I remember it from before, there was kind of a mad scramble to 'get gud', but only until 'gud enough'.  Then people kind of tapered off into comfort levels, whereas now there's less of a mad scramble to get gud enough, with more emphasis on buckling down for a long haul; being able to beat up everyone you spar isn't good enough, because you know you're still only at journeyman.  There's frustration at the speed that it goes up, regardless of how effective you seem to be in combat or in doing your job.

I think it's led to a lot more longer-lived characters due to playing it safe until advanced and master fills your skill list, and therefore a lot more time investment, and then a lot more painful breaks on character death.

I don't have brief skills on either.  To be an outlier not using it seems silly, given it is now how the game is fundamentally played.  However, I don't want to say that everyone playing this way is subject to 'bad rp'.  I think quality of roleplay has as a rule gone steadily upwards in quality over the long period of time I've spent here, but there are always some facets that fade or are lacking that I genuinely think detracted from the game.

It's a give and take thing.  I don't think people are as skill-focused as they are time-invested, and I don't think they're code-oriented as much as frustrated by mysterious code knowledge.  I try to help with the frustration as much as I can while still implanting some of the former ideals that I think enhanced the experience overall for me.  Sometimes that get twisted around into certain viewpoints, and sometimes it actually helps someone.  Hopefully that give and take balance in those areas of the game continues to shift until a premium balance is formed.

[Synthesis]

I talk about skills a lot on the GDB because I'm more interested in discussing technical aspects that are measurable and can be evidence-based than in opining about the best way to play elves or half-elves, or what the Arabeti really believe, or otherwise commenting on how other people play the game.  That doesn't mean I never do that, but I find the technical discussion more interesting, usually.  Also, it doesn't mean that I don't believe the opining discussions aren't useful...I get a lot from reading them, I just don't personally find it compelling enough to engage in the discussion.

The changes to the way we can get usable, useful data in-game have made these technical discussions much more interesting, because it's -far- less based on guesswork and anecdote.  Obviously, there still is an element of that, but not nearly as much as before.

Personally, I skill up to be useful to other PCs.  It isn't about winning Armageddon, or flexing on scrubs, or racking up PKs.  I like being able to say, "Hell yes, I'll ride with you to the Xytrix-za!" or "Hell yeah, I'll steal your fancy knife back!" or "You want a full set of scrab-shell gear? YOU GOT IT."

[Armaddict]

I talk about skills a lot on the GDB because I'm more interested in discussing technical aspects that are measurable and can be evidence-based than in opining about the best way to play elves or half-elves, or what the Arabeti really believe, or otherwise commenting on how other people play the game.  That doesn't mean I never do that, but I find the technical discussion more interesting, usually.

The changes to the way we can get usable, useful data in-game have made these technical discussions much more interesting, because it's -far- less based on guesswork and anecdote.  Obviously, there still is an element of that, but not nearly as much as before.

Personally, I skill up to be useful to other PCs.  It isn't about winning Armageddon, or flexing on scrubs, or racking up PKs.  I like being able to say, "Hell yes, I'll ride with you to the Xytrix-za!" or "Hell yeah, I'll steal your fancy knife back!" or "You want a full set of scrab-shell gear? YOU GOT IT."

I agree with this, and it's a large part of why some of my posts have been more firmset on 'code plz' of late.  I essentially hit a point where I got tired of everything degrading into arguing how vnpcs would behave, what should or shouldn't be possible based on culture or arbitrary/relative interpretations of things, and so on.

It isn't that I'm trying to tell everyone to twink out on code.  It's that I think we're at the point that we're paralyzing ourselves on what we allow other players to do under the banner of 'Good Roleplaying'.