Does the archery code need tweaked?

[nauta]

So as not to derail the combat thread (click on the links to get the backstory):

That said: can't the people getting shot at just run away?

I know this is a derail and I'll apologize in advance - but, oh do I loathe the archery code.

So with that disclaimer.  The answer to this question? Is almost without exception.  No.

So let's say you're out and about doing your thing.  Your brain is wrapped up in skinning a kill, waying your buddy, chatting with your hunting partner.  In short, you the player are thinking about anything but insta-fleeing some guy on a beetle with a .50 caliber sniper rifle.

Mid skinning attempt or, if they're very clever, just as you start fighting a critter.  An arrow flies in from the west and strikes your PC in the head.

By the time your brain processes that you've just been shot for > 50% of your hp, the archer has already reloaded and is firing again.  A second shot to the head and you are dead.  That's 75% of interaction with "Raiders" with bows.

The next 20% of the time?  That first arrow had Perraine or Heramide.

So yeah, barring the two above situations?  The right response is spam enter move commands until you're back inside the nearest quitsafe place (which is not the right RP response).  Unfortunately?  The folks with the bow are probably watching you before they start shooting, waiting until you are dismounted so you can't run (End) to the nearest safeplace, and then just... shoot you again, while you try to bandage.

Oh... or you make it, this time.  And they bring two archers the next time - as mentioned.  Archery code is dumb - Riev isn't wrong.

I have some things to say on it -- I think it's a good topic -- but I just wanted to save the original thread from derailing first.

[bardlyone]

I love that archery is as deadly as it is. It feels realistic that it is so.

That said: Unless you are being shot at by a pc that wants to harry you but let you live, like the first encounter I ever had with a desert elf, YEARS ago, you don't have much chance against an archer unless you run the second you're hit, and lose them.

Well, against a skilled archer. Just like a skilled warrior or extremely dangerous critter.

I don't think archery needs to be less damaging. I do think that increasing the delay between possible shots to something longer (if not the same delay as bashing, at least some more delay) would be an improvement.

[Delirium]

Archery is fine. It's already less deadly than it probably should be. People have a chance to run.

Use a shield, and know how to use it. Or be able to hide. There are defenses, if you're savvy.

If you just stand there, well yeah, you're in for a bad time.

[Synthesis]

The solution is to make badass-level archery as rare as badass-level melee.

Ideas:

1) Make slings a separate skill.  You can no longer train bow-archery with free ammo.
2) Every archery "miss" destroys the arrow.  You can no longer shoot at things that you KNOW you'll miss EVERY TIME in order to train archery from novice to jman with a single arrow.
3) Re-code the skillgain so that archery improves at the same rate as weapon skills.

[nauta]

Two minor archery tweak suggestions:

1. Make people train shooting a bow by shooting a bow.  Move sling to throw (rather than archery).  Arrows are expensive.

2. Nerf slings.  Little known fact: slings are deadly and have as good of range as arrows.  I've taken down drov beetles with three sling bullets from a human with reasonable strength.  Moreover, whereas with archery you are left vulnerable (wield arrow; hold bow), with the sling you can have a weapon in the primary hand (or a shield) and hold the sling.

ETA: Yeah, what Synthesis said, basically.

[Riev]

Archery is fine. It's already less deadly than it probably should be. People have a chance to run.

Use a shield, and know how to use it. Or be able to hide. There are defenses, if you're savvy.

If you just stand there, well yeah, you're in for a bad time.

Like everything in the game, a properly advanced skillset and planning tend to be superior.

However, even if a Warrior MASTERS bash, its not as reliable as a Ranger's arrow. Mastered swords are not as reliable to get through parry or block. Mastered Shield Use and Parry does nothing against a Ranger's arrow (tested, you attempt to parry 1/5 at best).

You cannot always hide. You can't "guard" from a direction to increase the chance that your BIG ASS KITE SHIELD THAT COVERS FROM SHOULDER TO KNEE will be effective.

My issue with the comment is this:

There are defenses, if you're savvy.

So we have to be savvy about the game's code and limitations, not savvy about defense and tactics in game? I think that's the point, is that you have to go to some pretty extreme things to defend against a skill that, as Synth mentions, is fucking FREE to train to a level of master, and can be done in 5-6days played. Whereas no warrior can master their combat skills in so short a time without "twinking" or doing "unrealistic" things.

[Delirium]

Split out slings from archery and make shields more effective, and add a guard check.

That stuff I agree with. But watering down archery when it's only ever "two head shots and done" in rare scenarios when the RNG favors you with its blessings, is silly at best.

[nauta]

Also, whitt, everyone should have this in their client highlights:

Code Select Expand


#HIGHLIGHT {arrow flies in from} {bold red}


Because I agree: the ambush can be surprising indeed! :-)

Also, re) poisons.

These days, I've noticed heramide to be very rare indeed, peraine less so.  According to the descriptions on some arrows, and lore, some arrows take/deliver poisons better than others.  If this isn't codedly implemented, I'd like to see that.

[Riev]

So then, yes. Archery code needs to be tweaked?

Watered down/less damaging? No. And I don't know that anyone called for that.

But tweaked, changed around a bit, defenses against it improved... yes.

[Lutagar]

Nerf everything I don't use tbh

[Delirium]

Yeah, I got the impression from an original post in the other thread that people were calling for it to have a longer delay and less damage, etc.

Which would just make it annoying and a PITA.

Split out slings/archery so that people can't magically switch to a bow, that I'm cool with.

[Synthesis]

In general, I think it should take about 20 days played to reach the "double neck-shot" 1v1 PvP potential.  It takes about 20 days for a warrior to get to the WTFPWN level, so I don't see why a ranger shouldn't have the same limitation.

Assassins can backstab to WTFPWN level faster, because they a) have to be in the same room and b) are saddled with an incredibly dangerous post-delay.

[Hashi]

I think the biggest problem with archery is in PvE.  Mobs simply don't react to getting shot from two rooms away, which is very strange and game breaking.  Simple fix would be for mobs to move in a direction that they get shot from.

[Delirium]

I think the biggest problem with archery is in PvE.  Mobs simply don't react to getting shot from two rooms away, which is very strange and game breaking.  Simple fix would be for mobs to move in a direction that they get shot from.

Then you should be able to shoot a mob once and wait for it to bleed out.

But you can't.

Right now, what we have is a decent balance of realism vs gameplay considering current code.

[nauta]

I think the biggest problem with archery is in PvE.  Mobs simply don't react to getting shot from two rooms away, which is very strange and game breaking.  Simple fix would be for mobs to move in a direction that they get shot from.

I suggested a while ago that the mob do a 'flee self' when fired at 50% of the time.  Sometimes it'll run close to the PC, sometimes not.  If a mob -always- moved to the PC, then we'd never use archery against aggressive mobs (alone), since, e.g., that rantarri would then move to you, then to you again, and you'd be dead (because you have no defenses up when firing).

But if it moved in a random direction, you might not always be dead.

[Hashi]

I could still see many benefits to using archery to hunt strong mobs, applying poisons primarily.  There's a poison in game supposedly called the "hunter's poison" that I've personally never needed to use as a hunter that would be very useful if mobs reacted to getting shot.

[tortall]

I think the biggest problem with archery is in PvE.  Mobs simply don't react to getting shot from two rooms away, which is very strange and game breaking.  Simple fix would be for mobs to move in a direction that they get shot from.

I suggested a while ago that the mob do a 'flee self' when fired at 50% of the time.  Sometimes it'll run close to the PC, sometimes not.  If a mob -always- moved to the PC, then we'd never use archery against aggressive mobs (alone), since, e.g., that rantarri would then move to you, then to you again, and you'd be dead (because you have no defenses up when firing).

But if it moved in a random direction, you might not always be dead.

+1!

[whitt]

The solution is to make badass-level archery as rare as badass-level melee.

Ideas:

1) Make slings a separate skill.  You can no longer train bow-archery with free ammo.
2) Every archery "miss" destroys the arrow.  You can no longer shoot at things that you KNOW you'll miss EVERY TIME in order to train archery from novice to jman with a single arrow.
3) Re-code the skillgain so that archery improves at the same rate as weapon skills.

Completely agree.  Might yield on #2, maybe not guarantee a broken arrow.

4) Increase the delay on aim to match Bash/Trample/Charge.
5) Remove the ability to single out a target beyond "tall figure", "figure", "short figure" more than one wilderness room away.
6) Have NPCs flee self when hit and damaged.

[Armaddict]

Not sure I like the immediate flee self.  As noted...if you could depend on them to bleed out from the strike to their neck, that would be different, but as is, archery is essentially the best way for a ranger to bring down most profitable game.  Where a lot of NPC's tend to ally with each other for no reason other than they're both NPC's, having them fleeing randomly towards each other isn't really helpful to anyone, nor does it actually tone down archery.

Archery can certainly do with some tweaking, but so can a lot of skills; Bash needs to be less dependent on height and consider a lot of other factors, for example.  Altogether, I find the way archery works now to be mostly inline with what I'd expect out of getting shot in the fucking neck by an arrow, and I find the arguments that you can't defend against it to be grossly overexaggerated.  Shield users are hard to shoot at when they are good at using shields.  Rangers with high parry seem to have a moderate chance of knocking it out, where a maxxed warrior is outright frustrating to try and shoot arrows at while focusing on effectively 'kiting'.  Sure, you can recklessly shoot arrow after arrow at them and count on one to get through, but if they're charging at you you don't want to be caught by that brief after-delay.

All I can say is that if people are maxxing out archery that fast, I'm not twinking out nearly as hard as some people.  My last ranger took 30 days to get it to master, but maybe because that's because I was only shooting at things I actually wanted to hunt.

Making slings separate seems reasonable, but I so rarely see them used as is that I'm kind of assuming people only use them when they're alone to twink out.

Honestly, I think as far as PvP, the best thing you can do to nerf archery is make the mounted archer bashable.  It's hard to change the before-delay due to how the code works with timers (ever wonder why sometimes it's short and sometimes its long?  I suspect that it's tied in to system 'ticks', where when you input the command it's waiting until the next 'tick' before the action takes place.  If I'm mistaken, nevermind), but we can make it so that hanging out there drawing a bow isn't nearly as safe against other players as it is now by being mounted.

[Riev]

Shield users are hard to shoot at when they are good at using shields.  Rangers with high parry seem to have a moderate chance of knocking it out, where a maxxed warrior is outright frustrating to try and shoot arrows at while focusing on effectively 'kiting'. 

I can confirm that semi recently, with a decently high agility and mastered shield use and parry, I did not attempt to block a single arrow shot at me, nor any from the person I was guarding.

[Armaddict]

Well.  As of a year and a half ago with mastered throw, I threw 3 knives at a newish Byn Runner holding a shield and had all 3 of them bounced off.

Within the last year, I've fired an arrow as a master at another ranger and had it knocked out of the air before disengaging and running.

[Riev]

Throwing != Archery

One arrow seems a bit out of whack, however in typical arm fashion, I'm sure HAVING the skill at a high level helps knock it out of the air?


I'm still not even saying affect the damage at all. I think some changes to archery recently HAVE helped, but if I'm wearing a full neckplate, and you hit me in the neck, it shouldn't do 60+ damage just because you hit the neck. Armor should factor into archery -very- heavily.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Not only do I believe that archery doesn't need to be toned down but I think that it could do for some status effects. Got shot in the leg/foot? More movement lag. Neck shot? Bleeding. Shot in the arm? Chance to drop whatever is held.

Archery is strong for a skilled archer but I believe that it should be. Zalanthas is a dangerous place and an arrow to the face hurts. I wouldn't mind seeing the archer having a little lag before they can move after firing the bow though - it makes it equally dangerous to shoot at people that can knock that arrow out of the air and come stab you in the neck with it.

[Armaddict]

Throwing != Archery

One arrow seems a bit out of whack, however in typical arm fashion, I'm sure HAVING the skill at a high level helps knock it out of the air?

While I acknowledge the first, I also find it highly unlikely that one has it factored in and the other does not.  I can go back further to just after shield use when in, when everyone and their mom was using a shield, and point out how hard it was to be a reliable archer at that time due to all the shields (though at that point there was a bug where blocking the arrow with a shield wouldn't block the poison on the arrow), but that's going way back to a time where such is unreliable.  Suffice to say, I don't think they decided throw should be blocked by shields, but arrows should not.

The latter I can't say for certain, but I know that while I rarely play warriors, the last one I played was knocking almost all arrows and chucked spears away without ever once even buying a bow.

Altogether, anecdotals presented versus my experience, I stand by that defense against archery is doable; sometimes it requires some luck, and sometimes it requires a decent reaction to the idea that arrows are being fired at you.

[Molten Heart]

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