Does the archery code need tweaked?

[Synthesis]

Throwing != Archery

One arrow seems a bit out of whack, however in typical arm fashion, I'm sure HAVING the skill at a high level helps knock it out of the air?

While I acknowledge the first, I also find it highly unlikely that one has it factored in and the other does not.  I can go back further to just after shield use when in, when everyone and their mom was using a shield, and point out how hard it was to be a reliable archer at that time due to all the shields (though at that point there was a bug where blocking the arrow with a shield wouldn't block the poison on the arrow), but that's going way back to a time where such is unreliable.  Suffice to say, I don't think they decided throw should be blocked by shields, but arrows should not.

The latter I can't say for certain, but I know that while I rarely play warriors, the last one I played was knocking almost all arrows and chucked spears away without ever once even buying a bow.

Altogether, anecdotals presented versus my experience, I stand by that defense against archery is doable; sometimes it requires some luck, and sometimes it requires a decent reaction to the idea that arrows are being fired at you.

A while back, they severely nerfed parry vs. arrows.

Warrior-level mastered shield use -does- block most scrublord arrows.  It might block about 33% of master-level archer shots.  It definitely will save your ass in terms of getting away, but still only if you run quickly.

[azuriolinist]

Armor should factor into archery -very- heavily.

This.

I admittedly have little experience with master archery (both wielding it and having it used against me). I'm with the opinion that rather than having archery nerfed, there be more effective defenses against it. Like someone said somewhere above, archery should be dangerous, at a high level. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be measures against it.

Like Riev pointed out, armor should play a big role against arrows, especially heavy armor. There's no way some arrow should be able to pierce through a gorget made out of shell. Maybe break it, somewhat. But not go through it. I think if the victim has good enough armor, there should be a serious chance of arrows bouncing off of the equipment. Of course, this would all depend on the make of the arrow, too.

Shields and parry definitely should have a chance to factor into it, too, (if they aren't already) with parry having only a slight chance to knock arrows out of the air. Or, rather, base agility off of the chance to knock an arrow from the air. Even still, I don't think parry should be much use against arrows. You don't see people in RL doing that sort of shit.

If there should be any adjustment to archery, maybe adjust the before/after delay based on the shooter's agility and archery skill. A novice archer with poor agility would probably fumble around with arrows.

I'm partially against the idea of making it more difficult to skill up archery, as that just adds to the grind. I didn't find it easy to skill up, either, though that might be based on circumstances. I do like the sound of making slingshots be based on a skill other than archery.

[Hauwke]

I wasnt going to weigh in with a full opinion but I feel like my opinion may be (probably not but whatever) valuable.

Defenses against archery:
The whole armor thing stems back to armor all but useless except in perfect circumstances I.e a foe with very low damage per hit. A weak breed for example, wheras a suit of the very best armor is wherable only by a select few and is ridiculously heavy so it narrows it further to who it benefits, and thats the armor that actually works when in all reality a good plate of armor made from something solid would stop it, a leather jerkin? Yeah an arrow could go through, but a half inch thick gorget made of shell designed to withstand all sorts of punishment. Yeah that would at best just crack.

Parrying an arrow? It seems in the line of catching an arrow in your bare hands, sure its possible but you are an idiot to not just jump aside instead. Using your shield however should be a very viable solution, at mastered warrior level shield use against master archery it should be a 50-50 chance to block if not more. The archer is aiming for the vital spots sure, but he cant influence the arrow after it leaves his bow so the rest after aiming is left up to wind and the target, if you see the arrow coming I am almost willing to bet you would cover yourself, if not your whole body at least your face because 'OHMYGODNOTTHEFACE!' Is a genuine rl reaction to things.

As for the whole twinking up of archery, Ive seen medium level archery kill npcs. Ive died to an arrow to the face after a missed parry even when I had undoubtably maxxed parry, if I didnt there was something wrong. and have seen others do the same.
Not once have I seen parry work, attempt sure, work no.

[Insigne]

An archer shouldn't be able to two-shot a heavily-armored warrior, neck shot or no.

If parry should factor into defense against arrows, which I think is some anime-level shit, have it be based on whether or not you're watching the archer or their direction.

I'm slightly opposed to slings being based on a different skill, but only because of the lack of availability of arrows. In NPC stores, when I can find them, they seem to go from 100 upwards apiece.

[John]

The solution should be making slings a separate skill OR drastically slowing down the rate at which archery advances. Unless cheap arrows suddenly become a thing (to make it comparable to "buy a weapon once and use it for IG years"). Unless of course a complete retool was done on how archery works, introducing new skills, etc.

It's worth pointing out that when you use a melee weapon the skills that come into play are fighting style (dual wielding or two-handed) + weapon type (slashing/bludgeoning/piercing/chopping) + hidden offense skill. When you use a bow only two skills potentially get used: fighting style (archery) + hidden offense skill. If you want to make ranged attacks comparable to melee attacks then you need to introduce weapon skills: bow/sling/crossbow. I'd personally combine archery and throw and call it ranged.

[Riev]

Archery is also significantly affected by the agility score of the person using it. Similar to strength in melee, but its worthwhile mentioning that its not "just archery + offense". In fact, I'm not even confident offense has anything to do with it at all.

[Miradus]

I have done a lot of bow-hunting for deer throughout my life. Even if you don't want to kill something, I advise you to go buy a target bow and a hay bale and enjoy it as a sport. It's very challenging.

Before I lost vision in my left eye I wasn't too bad.

Deer will OCCASIONALLY see an arrow coming. Even though it's traveling at about 400 feet per second. They don't really dodge, but they will flinch as it's coming in. I'm not sure if they see the flash of it or what. But they'll sometimes flinch and lower their body and your arrow will go a little high. The best shots are front to back or back to front (literally up the ass) because even the flinch won't cause a complete miss.

Shields were THE defense against arrows in medieval warfare. Particularly the massed shield wall against the hail of arrows coming in from the front or above. I don't see someone parrying an arrow outside of some epic Japanese films but stopping an arrow with a shield is something even a common footsoldier should be capable of doing.

[azuriolinist]

Archery is also significantly affected by the agility score of the person using it. Similar to strength in melee, but its worthwhile mentioning that its not "just archery + offense". In fact, I'm not even confident offense has anything to do with it at all.

Oh. Heh. Always had the idea it was strength for some reason.

[Riev]

Archery is also significantly affected by the agility score of the person using it. Similar to strength in melee, but its worthwhile mentioning that its not "just archery + offense". In fact, I'm not even confident offense has anything to do with it at all.

Oh. Heh. Always had the idea it was strength for some reason.

I mean, insofar as it affects what kind of bow you can use... which might have an effect on damage. I don't know the archery code in and out, I'm just trying to mention that a high offense score doesn't mean archery hits more often, or for more damage.

And to the point that "dual wield" and "two handed" might factor into a melee hit, but "shield use" wouldn't, so there's that tradeoff too.

[Drayab]

Just spitballing here, but what if guarding someone gave you a chance to block a missile aimed at them, as an advanced usage of the guard skill.

Guarding each other with shields up would then be like 'locking shields,' a formation strong against archer attacks.

I do also think that shields in particular should provide more protection against archers than they currently do, from my own experience in game. I think I've parried more arrows than blocked them, which seems odd. Then again, it doesn't actually come up that much so maybe statistically it's alright but my specific instances have been skewed by a small sample size.

[Marauder Moe]

I agree that shields should be way more effective against arrows.

Would also be great if there was a command like

Code Select Expand

>shield east
that, assuming you have a shield, provides a big bonus for you and your 'guard' target against projectiles coming from that direction. 

[Insigne]

Just spitballing here, but what if guarding someone gave you a chance to block a missile aimed at them, as an advanced usage of the guard skill.

I like it. Block attempt fails or you're not holding a shield and you have a chance at taking the hit instead!

Would also be great if there was a command like

Code Select Expand

>shield east
that, assuming you have a shield, provides a big bonus for you and your 'guard' target against projectiles coming from that direction. 

I feel like this could be done with the existing 'watch' command.

[Miradus]

I'd settle for just decreased chance to hit with each consecutive arrow.

First one hits at full chance, full damage. Each consecutive arrow halves that to indicate that your target is aware they're being shot at and is actively evading or taking cover.

[Bahliker]

Ideas and thoughts for the spitball range:

+1 to be able to target only visible keywords at range.
+1 to being able to "lock on" with watch (target) (direction) with the same keyword restrictions as shooting.
Chance to hit the wrong target, adjusted for factors such as distance, whether the shot was a hit or miss, if the target is in combat, if the target was following or being followed by a group, if the target is mounted, etc.
Having run on decreases chance to get hit. 
Simply holding a shield adjusts hit chance from archery based on size (weight maybe) of the shield in addition to normal shield skill.
Being aware of the shooter diminishes hit chance, watching the shooter or the shooters room greatly diminishes hit chance (perfect shots are unlikely except when hidden or otherwise given visibility advantage)
Cover command, takes effect immediately but has an after delay based on agility, grants bonus vs ranged and maybe even reduces some spell damage, variable bonus based on terrain type, hide skill, certain guild options, penalty against the first round of combat, cancelled by standing or moving once the short delay is over.

[Hauwke]

If archery was affected byoffense we would see years old warriors able to neck shot elves with a bow. Which I have never seen but it could be possible.

[Patuk]

Years-old warriors still don't have scan, so the elves will live to see another day.

[Hauwke]

I mostly used elves as an example but yeah.

[Dunetrade55]

I know it's not the same, but when I was younger and my reflexes better, I parried a few paintballs with a gloved hand (a gentle, curved, guiding touch, is this cheating? Don't know, don't care) or even just turned sideways to dodge them. I guess being the kid people would hurl basketballs at relentlessly in gym class has its advantages. At the same time, an arrow is different, at range it follows quite an arc. At maximum range you're just looking at *shield up* when you see the arrows fly, unless I'm mistaken. My archery experience was brief, in the Boy Scouts, so take that with a grain of salt. Miradus likely has a much better idea on that. Parrying arrows? Not impossible, but unlikely unless you're pretty damn good, which, that's a lot of ifs, down to agility, parry skill, and defense.

[Inks]

No it doesn't. Shield vs arrow should be tweaked so journeyman even has a small chance to block shots, and master shield should have a 50% effectiveness vs master arrow.

[Lizzie]

I'd settle for just decreased chance to hit with each consecutive arrow.

First one hits at full chance, full damage. Each consecutive arrow halves that to indicate that your target is aware they're being shot at and is actively evading or taking cover.

I like the idea of this - not necessarily the details but the general idea. That subsequent arrows fired at the same target from the same archer has a decreased chance of hitting the mark, because the target is now paying attention to incoming arrows.

[Miradus]

I'd settle for just decreased chance to hit with each consecutive arrow.

First one hits at full chance, full damage. Each consecutive arrow halves that to indicate that your target is aware they're being shot at and is actively evading or taking cover.

I like the idea of this - not necessarily the details but the general idea. That subsequent arrows fired at the same target from the same archer has a decreased chance of hitting the mark, because the target is now paying attention to incoming arrows.

I stole the idea. It's based off of how "backstab" was implemented in MUME. The first backstab has a greater chance of hitting but subsequent ones get harder. On the understanding that a target who just lost half their hp might be a bit more wary of being stabbed in the back again within the next couple of minutes.

In Arm it would be a tradeoff between that versus a mob charging at you for the kill.

[Feco]

In general, I think archery is fine.

[Armaddict]

In general, I think archery is fine.

I'm in this boat as well, but am not averse to tweaks.

I'm still really thinking that much higher accuracy to advanced archery would change things a lot, by slowing down the progression towards master archery.  That is without an intimate knowledge of how it progresses, though.

An 'aware' flag to recent combatants would likely be a good idea.  Harder to backstab, harder to hit with ranged weapons, harder to steal from, etc.

Someone who's been riding around in the wilderness peacefully for three days is easier to hit than someone who knows they're under attack, and this has the side product of dealing with that pesky idea of firing at people locked in combat as well.  Not impossible, but hard.

[Jingo]

Archery is fine if you're not the one getting shot.  I'd say it favors the ambusher far more than the other ambush skills do.

But I'd be happy if Backstab, Sap or Throw were given comparable boosts in lethality.

I'd be happy with a flat percentage to block arrows just from holding a shield.

I'd be happy if there was some sort of delay/precision trade off available to archery. Crossbows vs Bows anyone?

[Synthesis]

In general, I think archery is fine.

I'm in this boat as well, but am not averse to tweaks.

I'm still really thinking that much higher accuracy to advanced archery would change things a lot, by slowing down the progression towards master archery.  That is without an intimate knowledge of how it progresses, though.

An 'aware' flag to recent combatants would likely be a good idea.  Harder to backstab, harder to hit with ranged weapons, harder to steal from, etc.

Someone who's been riding around in the wilderness peacefully for three days is easier to hit than someone who knows they're under attack, and this has the side product of dealing with that pesky idea of firing at people locked in combat as well.  Not impossible, but hard.

Mastering it is easy as long as you have access to the right mobs.  We're talking like 5-7 days, if you can get quality practice in every time you hunt.

That's -my- biggest issue with archery.  It takes a long-ass time for a warrior to get good enough to make people want to flee instantly.  It takes a long-ass time for an assassin to get good enough to be confident enough to even risk a legit PC backstab (backstabbing newbie scrubs in the 'rinth doesn't count).  A ranger, though, can get good enough to fuck your ass up from 2 rooms away with very little risk to himself, and very little risk involved in the process of getting that good.

That being said...nobody has ever PK'ed me with arrows.  X-D got really, really close a couple of times, but magick saved me once and shield use saved me the other time.  It's just really annoying that a relatively noobish PC can essentially deny you access to an area via threat of instant damage that you have to sleep off (if you haven't branched bandage).