Teeny Weenies: Consolidation vs Teeny Settlements

[Reiloth]

Pretty simple. Frontier, homesteading, and so on. Consolidation, as a grand vague theme, or the lack thereof.

How possible would it be for a group of people to set up shop somewhere on a trade route and build up a little settlement from nothing?

Should it follow a similar track to the MMH? It's honestly so dangerous and nigh impossible, that I don't see a detriment to people being able to try. Currently, it isn't even possible (in fact, slightly discouraged by Staff. By this I mean they don't agree that if you find a quit safe spot, you should be able to build up around it, etc.)

I'd love to see an Inn and a couple rentable (and pregnable) houses/huts/shanties pop up around Zalanthas. If they were generic (Just a sandstone/vague material room with a locked office behind it and a sleeping quarters above), and could be popped in (or popped out if they were destroyed), it'd add a desert dynamic i'd be curious to see.

I think we've become too obsessed with consolidation -- Honestly, consolidation has pushed me (and maybe a few other people) away from the game. Players are going to play a game if it's fun to play, not if they're jammed next to the same PCs they don't enjoy playing around (or PCs they just find annoying/difficult to play with/boring to play with).



Do you find consolidation is 'working'? Do you enjoy consolidation? What do you think about small outposts scattered throughout the desolate landscape? Would they add flavor/character, or would they detract from the game/consolidation?

[Jihelu]

I'd love to be able to make a little outpost on a pathway.
Pay taxes to the nearby city, etc.

I fear staff would either:
A: Say no
B: Get me murdered by city
C: Have bahamets or something else huge and not native to the area come fuck it up as a 'natural disaster'
or
D: All of the above.

[BadSkeelz]

The big problem with outposts or structures that don't poof on reboot is that you would quickly wind up with a world full of the damn things. Go play on a public ARK, or Rust, or Minecraft server and you'll see what I mean.

Being able to raise up your homestead would be cool, but we would need a means of A) limiting their numbers and B) ensuring they don't stick around too long. It should be an exceptionally rare thing for a structure to outlast the life of its creator.

There's also the fact that the game world just is not that big. You could maybe fit an inn between Allanak and Luir's, and Luir's and Tuluk, but there's less wilderness space and it appears.

[BadSkeelz]

One way of limiting the number would be by restricting the available sites. Say for instance that every wilderness save room can be used as a Foundation for a player structure, and you need to collect X materials in order to improve it. You can only have one Foundation to your name. Some might require you to pay tribute to the local overlord (Tribe, GMH, City State) as well. The requirements would need to be steep enough that few would attempt, and fewer still succeed.

If your PC dies, whatever structure you have there begins to decay. Other PCs should claim it, but there should be a soft rule preventing the founder-PC's player from doing so immediately (like within 3 months of the founder-PC dying).

[Jingo]

I think clan leaders should have the authority to setup temporary base camps as a place to organize future exploration. Staff should have no problem linking them to the location players want to set them up.

[John]

they don't agree that if you find a quit safe spot, you should be able to build up around it, etc.)

Theres nothing stopping you from doing this. Find a save room, setup some tents, put in some barrels of ale, pay local protection money and see how long your structure lasts.

Re: Consolidation

The game has expanded and shrunk over the years. Before 1993 there was only Allanak and Tuluk didn't even exist in the lore of the game. Then Tuluk was built by a staff member called Ur. Then it was destroyed and occupied by Allanak (where the vast majority of the city was removed from the game). Dunno if removing Tuluk has had the desired effect (haven't played In a while), but it's removal isn't new. The city has come and gone (and been blown up) plenty of times.

[Jihelu]

they don't agree that if you find a quit safe spot, you should be able to build up around it, etc.)

Theres nothing stopping you from doing this. Find a save room, setup some tents, put in some barrels of ale, pay local protection money and see how long your structure lasts.

Re: Consolidation

The game has expanded and shrunk over the years. Before 1993 there was only Allanak and Tuluk didn't even exist in the lore of the game. Then Tuluk was built by a staff member called Ur. Then it was destroyed and occupied by Allanak (where the vast majority of the city was removed from the game). Dunno if removing Tuluk has had the desired effect (haven't played In a while), but it's removal isn't new. The city has come and gone (and been blown up) plenty of times.

And then someone steals everything you put there when you are offpeak and no one cares.

[Gravity]

I think clan leaders should have the authority to setup temporary base camps as a place to organize future exploration. Staff should have no problem linking them to the location players want to set them up.

Some clans already have this option available.

[nauta]

they don't agree that if you find a quit safe spot, you should be able to build up around it, etc.)

Theres nothing stopping you from doing this. Find a save room, setup some tents, put in some barrels of ale, pay local protection money and see how long your structure lasts.

Re: Consolidation

The game has expanded and shrunk over the years. Before 1993 there was only Allanak and Tuluk didn't even exist in the lore of the game. Then Tuluk was built by a staff member called Ur. Then it was destroyed and occupied by Allanak (where the vast majority of the city was removed from the game). Dunno if removing Tuluk has had the desired effect (haven't played In a while), but it's removal isn't new. The city has come and gone (and been blown up) plenty of times.

And then someone steals everything you put there when you are offpeak and no one cares.

People (players) are more noble than you think.  I had a stash in the rinth when there was a save room (since removed), unprotected, for about six months.  I did have protection, but I was stolen from only once (and caught them).

[Jihelu]

they don't agree that if you find a quit safe spot, you should be able to build up around it, etc.)

Theres nothing stopping you from doing this. Find a save room, setup some tents, put in some barrels of ale, pay local protection money and see how long your structure lasts.

Re: Consolidation

The game has expanded and shrunk over the years. Before 1993 there was only Allanak and Tuluk didn't even exist in the lore of the game. Then Tuluk was built by a staff member called Ur. Then it was destroyed and occupied by Allanak (where the vast majority of the city was removed from the game). Dunno if removing Tuluk has had the desired effect (haven't played In a while), but it's removal isn't new. The city has come and gone (and been blown up) plenty of times.

And then someone steals everything you put there when you are offpeak and no one cares.

People (players) are more noble than you think.  I had a stash in the rinth when there was a save room (since removed), unprotected, for about six months.  I did have protection, but I was stolen from only once (and caught them).

Huh.
That's cool then.
I still think having some coded things in the room, and a locked chest, would make things a bit safer tho.

[BrokenRomance]

I'd be for an inn or two, but just two maybe. Not everyone can get to this point and stuff. Could be someone works to set it up, and the whole thing is ran by players unless none are available at the time, then an NPC handles stuff. Seen it done elsewhere, and it makes for a very rich environment.

[bardlyone]

they don't agree that if you find a quit safe spot, you should be able to build up around it, etc.)

Theres nothing stopping you from doing this. Find a save room, setup some tents, put in some barrels of ale, pay local protection money and see how long your structure lasts.

Re: Consolidation

The game has expanded and shrunk over the years. Before 1993 there was only Allanak and Tuluk didn't even exist in the lore of the game. Then Tuluk was built by a staff member called Ur. Then it was destroyed and occupied by Allanak (where the vast majority of the city was removed from the game). Dunno if removing Tuluk has had the desired effect (haven't played In a while), but it's removal isn't new. The city has come and gone (and been blown up) plenty of times.

And then someone steals everything you put there when you are offpeak and no one cares.

People (players) are more noble than you think.  I had a stash in the rinth when there was a save room (since removed), unprotected, for about six months.  I did have protection, but I was stolen from only once (and caught them).

Huh.
That's cool then.
I still think having some coded things in the room, and a locked chest, would make things a bit safer tho.

I like the idea of a merchant with master stone working being able to spend 6 rl months on custom items for 4 walls, a ceiling, and a floor, which eventually turn into a single enterable room (which you could expand onto 1 room per six months - again, using a mastercraft each month for that instead of items). IF you come across an abandoned settlement (the pc has died), you can claim it for your own, and if you have a sufficiently skilled pc as part of your group living there, you can also change the descs/name on one room of an existing outpost/settlement each month. After a point, it would work to also really start genuine conflict over the areas, too. What would be neat is if you could pay a sufficient IC price to hire 2 byn, one to guard the door outside, and 1 to patrol inside, for a sufficient IC cost, the way rentable warehouses are priced and done, on a contingent of X time, as rentable permastationed npcs, until they stop being paid, if a script could come in and change the descs of the rooms inside the enterable after they stop guarding it, that would impose a cost, and put in a hook for existing clans, etc. It would also impose time restrictions, motivations to build onto existing areas, including clans on plots, let players feel they have some more power to change small parts of the world, and be reasonably in line with the workload staff currently have, as mastercrafting merchants can only produce that rate of items per month custom, and they go through similar process to be built and approved, but you as staff, have the bonus of not having to mess with the crafting recipe tool which.... not fun or pleasant. It would also allow for more lawlessness, places to raid and for outlaws to hole up, and create neat places for people who like to rp at the far reaches of the world (and in some cases, I'm imagining a bit closer but still outside in the wilds) to run into each other and find a place to plot and interact.

[Reiloth]

As I posted from work, I didn't go into much detail.

I don't think it should be like Rust or Minecraft where you can just plunk down anywhere and decide 'This here be Amosville.'

Instead, I think it should be part of the alternate track for MMH/Indy Clan development. It's something that should require Staff involvement, and should take a while. But if you and a group of people want to plunk down in a save spot, and can survive a while, you can maybe make a go of it.

Having staked out places, similar to the Mul Outpost, where you can maybe negotiate with the smaller powers that be (Think a smaller version of Red Storm and the Sand Lord) to build a shop, or to build/run an Inn, is more along the lines of what i'm thinking.

Part of what makes Armageddon great (to me) is the bleakness and the desolate inbetweens. A city -- Even a large established Outpost -- can sometimes fly in the face of this. I find closeness with the original connection I made with Armageddon with Red Storm Village, with the Outsiders who never stand a chance making it in a city. They cut it day by day, trying to make enough money to survive and buy some food and water. Saving money isn't even a possibility. They might wander from Red Storm to another place just in the hopes of finding another opportunity besides what's in front of them.

I personally think having more waystations and small outposts scattered through the desert, even if they aren't stationary and rotate (to account for the varied distance lost between sandstorms) might achieve some of that 'feeling' I suppose i'm poorly attempting to articulate when I mention 'Consolidation vs Teeny Weenies'.

[a french mans shirt]

Settlement creation on Zalanthas sounds like a goal for the wealthy and powerful. I kind of like how it is, with the occasional hidey-hole, but spread out so that it feels like the barren, wealthless wasteland it is.

I would be all for a single settlement on the road somewhere, perhaps on top of a sapphire mine or something to justify its existence, but let's say, its made up of three houses, all of which are save rooms and two of which are quit rooms because its been a while and the third has no roof anymore. (I'm talking after the mine has dried up and the people have moved on.)

It'd be too small to justify continuing a vnpc presence and a shopkeeper selling meat there, and there are yourself and a rogue living there, each of whom think they have this settlement remnant to themselves because they never log in at the same time. What do you do about that?

It could be like New Menos though, and have a magically inexhaustible very large mine.

Staff tend to want to keep things are they are right now though which means fewer places to hang your hat, so I think they would eventually turn the settlement into a ghost town.

But a ghost town drained of resources sounds like a neat place to add to Armageddon. House Fale already got all their amethysts, so now everyone's leaving because there's no work and the food was expensive anyway.

I didn't read the thread.

[Reiloth]

Yeah, something like this would almost need Staff involvement in the sense of the Madrek or some other 'interested group' also supporting and taking interest in a settlement. So it wouldn't be 100% PC Run, it would have a Staff intersection as well. So a new settlement could pop up, or go away, but it wouldn't be 100% based on PC growth/expansion/death.

I'm not sure this is impossible, actually, considering the revamps to PC clans and such that Xalle and the Indy team rolled out. Maybe it would be, given the right circumstances.

[a french mans shirt]

I don't think its impossible... I'm just kind of suspicious of staff's tendencies to turn sections of the game off.

[a french mans shirt]

I'm thinking about Tuluk, the Grey, half the gicker types... the Jaxa Pah, some of the Tablelands folks...(edited out some IC stuff)

Gith, halflings, mantis. I really believe Morin's is only open because of kryl shell and wood.

[Riev]

I don't think its impossible... I'm just kind of suspicious of staff's tendencies to turn sections of the game off.

They've done it like... twice. To the same area (UnderTuluk IS Tuluk!). Jaxa Pah isn't a "section of the game", and removing full-guild elementalists, while I don't agree, isn't pertinent to the conversation at hand.

I think the bigger problem is, as people have mentioned, forcing people together into one big real-time chat room won't make people RP together any more than they already do. Some people play to conspire, some play to plot, some play to kill each other, and other people not.

[Reiloth]

I don't think its impossible... I'm just kind of suspicious of staff's tendencies to turn sections of the game off.

I think that's more than a little reductionist -- Staff turn on and turn off areas of the game all the time. I think it depends on their resources and what they're interested in pursuing or not pursuing at a given time. I don't think Staff has been or will be held to maintain areas of the game they no longer wish to maintain -- They have to do what they think is best for the game and roll with it.

Issues like Tuluk, the Grey, half the gicker types, the Jaxa Pah, some of the Tablelands folks is not only vague, but there was likely a whole lot more discussion that went into the closure or scrapping of these concepts/areas than 'We have a tendancy to shut off areas of the game'.

I think Morins is open to give a different flavor and actually represents one of these "NPC Interest Settlements", just as Red Storm could be a good example. I'm thinking of much smaller scale than that, but NPC interest and presence can scale down too.

For example, a settlement/area like Menos or Yaroch shows an Inn, NPC presence, and is maybe a little large in itself (and close to Allanak). Something like this 'on the way to Luirs' or 'on the way to Tuluk'.

Then again, you can point to how unpopulated these places are and Cenyr by example, and say 'It just wouldn't work', which I could see as well. I think if it weren't the Outlier but the norm of Zalanthas, things might be different, but with Allanak being the center of the world, perhaps places like these would only offer what they do now -- A slightly different flavor.

What I mean to say is -- Having a Huge City state with Templars and Gemmed and Noble Houses and all that jazz can't exist side by side with a version of the world that is mostly small settlements and just smaller in scale, more spread out, etc.

So...HMM. I guess I actually don't see this working beyond the MMH sort of system and a 'once in a blue moon' sort of thing.

[mirk_o_loio]

Bardlyone's idea is awesome. What he/she/it says in their post is great and a damn good idea
Can we hear staff on that? I honestly think it the best way.

[Ath]

I'm thinking about Tuluk, the Grey, half the gicker types... the Jaxa Pah, some of the Tablelands folks...(edited out some IC stuff)

Gith, halflings, mantis. I really believe Morin's is only open because of kryl shell and wood.

Gith - closed because they are difficult to play and extremely isolationist.  If we take an example from the last round of Gith that were allow to be playable, most died off. 

This also goes for Mantis... they were even more isolationist than Gith, and they had a totally different mindset to play.  Most would die off or store because they got bored because of how restrictive it was for them.

Halfling - They were closed during a time where there was other issues going on that I really cannot go into details about.  Just to say, it was out of our control.  Plus once again, they were extremely isolated and couldn't really react with anyone BUT other halflings.

Morin's is going anywhere, it's around because we still want to have some Northern role-playing available and also northern characters start somewhere.  We've also been over several times why Tuluk was closed.

Also note, everything but Tuluk was closed about 10 or more years ago.  Also realize that with the closing of some areas, it leaves the ability to open others.  Look at the new clan called the Dust Runners for example that didn't exist before.  The main thing is that some areas close so others can open, just like Reiloth mentions in his post.

[a french mans shirt]

Reopen Red Storm East, and have a small post between Red Storm and Red Storm East as somewhere to hit the hay and buy greyish water. No stable. No need to code it, really.

Put farming villages around Tuluk, which by all rights should be there. Like three of them. One has a stable, one has water, one has ale. Its perfect. All of them do wheat, probably. No rogue in their right mind is going to set up shop, and Morin's hunters can have a little variety in their days, making plans to venture from these farms rather than just from Morin's because they don't want to incur the ire of street carru.

EDIT: Yeah, I wasn't saying it in a derogatory or complaining way when I said I thought stuff was always being closed; it just simply looked like stuff was being closed, from my perspective, and the way I've been playing for maybe eight years.

[Ath]

Bardlyone's idea is awesome. What he/she/it says in their post is great and a damn good idea
Can we hear staff on that? I honestly think it the best way.

Nothing is impossible.  If you have an idea, bring it up with your clan staff, but be ready for it to be critiqued and justified.  There have been those that have setup camps or things like this before.  Right now with the Player Clan system, we're looking at this from a existing settlement standpoint as its more justifiable.  I mean, I could see a MMH having more ability to be able to build out in the known than some random small Indie group.  I am in no way the authority on this as I don't work over Indie team, but I would suggest reaching out them.

As for MMHs, those would end up going with the GMH Team, and I would listen to any MMH that would have this ideas, but it wouldn't be easy.  One thing to realize is that there is a rather significant support staff in keeping something like this around.  It really just depends on what the player wants to do.

[Ath]

Reopen Red Storm East, and have a small post between Red Storm and Red Storm East as somewhere to hit the hay and buy greyish water. No stable. No need to code it, really.

Put farming villages around Tuluk, which by all rights should be there. Like three of them. One has a stable, one has water, one has ale. Its perfect. All of them do wheat, probably. No rogue in their right mind is going to set up shop, and Morin's hunters can have a little variety in their days, making plans to venture from these farms rather than just from Morin's because they don't want to incur the ire of street carru.

Red Storm East is a very old city that hasn't had descriptions and other aspects of it updated to the current standards we have.  It would require a complete overhaul.  I'm not saying it's out of the picture, but it would take some serious actions IC to make it happen.  Most would know that True Giants occupy that particular location and that there is some sort of circumstances/deal with Red Storm Village on how they get Wheat from there.

As for Farming around Tuluk... Tuluk keeps all of it's farming within it's walls.  That's why there is a huge section of the outer city is just that, fields of farms.

[Jihelu]

" Most would know that True Giants occupy that particular location and that there is some sort of circumstances/deal with Red Storm Village on how they get Wheat from there.
"
I thought the history page mentioned how giants were gone, not just hanging out/whatever?
That was a bit off topic but....



I'd like to see 'rebuiling an old outpost/place' a possible thing, or atleast fixing it up to the point of throwing a gate/fixing a gate and using it as a mini outpost/mini home from hom.