Cafe, More Venues, Stuff like that

[Reiloth]

My point (whoa the GDB looks weird) is that the demographic of the Labyrinth is a little more complex than Players make it out to be, or have made it out to be over the years. The Eastside has half-elves and even humans (!!!) squatting in tenements. The Westside has Elves and Half-Elves and Dwarves and so on. I think understanding how gang politics works (caught in the wrong territory without colors, flagrant actions in territory known to belong to another gang, etc) is required to get the nuance here. Can an Elf just wander into the Folley and sit down? Uh, probably not, unless they have a reason to be there. But they aren't just going to be dragged outside and shanked for being an Elf. They might be told to leave, and if they don't, they're stepping on toes, and suddenly there's a very good reason to stab them.

The second part of this point is Southsiders in the Labyrinth. Yes, no one in their 'right mind' would go to the Labyrinth for a vacation, to take in the wonderful views of the Gan Zein Marketplace and go on a tour of the Middles. However, we need to recognize that a large part of the virtual population (which is something we need to take into account as Players) is transplants. People who don't want to be in the Labyrinth, but don't have any other choice, and guess what -- They come from Allanak.

When I mention this -- It's because I have seen the part of the documentation (which I think is a little absurd) of 'enemies of my enemies is my friendz' with Southsiders, without even questioning why a Southsider might be there. I've played Rinthers that were 'transplants' from Allanak, and any Southsider is automatically assumed to be a spy or working for a Noble. This sort of black and white world is not only boring, it's transparent in its binary boringness. The assumption that anyone from Allanak proper is a spy or doesn't belong in the Labyrinth is absurd. Spice-heads, tourists looking for a cheap fuck or to score something from the black market, or rub elbows with the criminal elements, are all perfectly valid reasons for non-Rinthers to be in the Labyrinth. Taking the spice-head aspect even further, many people don't make it back out to Allanak, ala Opium Dens and that whole rigamaroll. There's NPC evidence of this around the Labyrinth.

By opening the Mantis to Southsiders, you are basically saying 'We understand that people from Allanak go to the Labyrinth for these reasons'. You also, OOCly, smush two groups of people together -- The degenerates from Allanak, and the degenerates from the Labyrinth. You aren't opening a new Tavern, you are widening the demographic of an existing Tavern.

The documentation you pointed out seems to have been written by one person who didn't really play in the Labyrinth and just heard about it and how it should work. Sorry -- Just my personal opinion. Making things less Black and White in the Labyrinth would make it a more desirable place to play.

Drawing RL comparison, there are plenty of 'Good People' who go to 'Bad Neighborhoods' for various reasons. Drugs, prostitution, illegal activity with less oversight, and so on. The Labyrinth suffers from being a walled off forbidden zone, rather than just 'the wrong side of town', which I think would be far more interesting.

[Armaddict]

To answer some things Gravity said:

Why in the Known would a Rinth bar knowingly open an entrance to a mercenary faction which clearly does heaps of work for nobility/GMHs/other influential clans? And from the other side, there is zero reason the Byn would want to open their back door to the Rinth just to save their guys a longer walk into town for booze...

The Byn are mercenaries.  Most of the business people in the alleys are mercenaries as well.  Assuming 'big business' of the labyrinth is a rebel state of the city is the number 1 thing I hate about the documentation, because it makes it sound as though you, as a 'rinther, should never do business.  The money of the city is from southside.  The power of the city is from southside.  Those are the people you do business with to make profit.  You enforce your turf, sure, but that's more of a concern when the people -actually want your turf-.  The T'zai Byn are no different than any service-selling faction of the Narrows.

Did you know the Guild Bar was at one point solely guarded by T'zai Byn mercenaries?  It was a standing contract.  While Byn Runners are disallowed from entering the alleys, that's a rule made because the little shits couldn't resist going up there out of boredom to kill muggers and get themselves killed, as well as piss off the locals.  Responsible Troopers and contracts were always a separate deal, before, but that was cut out due to people taking it to the extreme, and less exposed players taking that as 'the norm' when that extremist happened to live a long time.  That was a long time ago, and it's disheartening because no attempts to remind of the contrary, or of how the city sensibly works, or of how the history documentation describes the downfall of the labyrinth into squalor, can convince people to be anything other than a shitlord up there.

2. Why would the west-side or east-side factions allow a neutral location to cut them out of the spice trade, when they have their direct contacts already?

The Mantis started off as a Kuraci-run bar.  While that ownership was revoked, the role never changed; Westside and eastside don't run the spice game, the Mantis does.  It always has.  Just because west and east fight over it and entrepreneur over it doesn't mean either one of them ever actually ran it.

3. Why would the rest of the Rinth want their neutral bar flooded with hundreds of new patrons so they can come get their spice fix and mingle with the criminals?

I'm afraid that doesn't make much sense.  The middle area of the 'rinth is race-neutral as things stand.  While you're likely to run into PC muggers, I think you need to realize that PC 'rinthers run into PC muggers too.  That's the alleys, not who's in it.  It's not as if the non-rebellion labyrinth would suddenly become rebels because more people were getting wine in one of their bars.



Mostly, realize that 'rinthers don't trust southsiders.  It's not because they're trying to become their own fortress-labyrinth, or because they're actively fighting authority.  It's because the perception is that the city proper -doesn't give a shit about them-, because they don't.  They were allowed to drop into squalor, they had violence start breaking out...and the city actively pulled back its troops rather than helping them.  As a result, the gangs came to a rise to start enforcing alley justice.  They became the ones the average 'rinthi trusted to have their interests at heart.  Whenever a soldier comes in, it's not a foreign invasion of 'THEY'RE TRYING TO ATTACK OUR ALLEYS!'.  It's a 'Fuck off, soldier, you guys left.  We don't need you anymore, and you don't want it.  You aren't supposed to be here.'  The labyrinth went through a period of tumultuous violent chaos and settled into the easy 'peace' that it's in now, where they enforce it themselves.  The southsiders haven't been part of that struggle that is the alley life, and don't know what it is to have to bite sand and pride to survive...and thus, alley folk have a connection with each other more than they do with the south.  But that's not -war-.

The fact is that the bit about soldiers in the alleys is true; they're -not- supposed to be there.  If at any point the templarate decided 'We're retaking the labyrinth by force', the labyrinth would be opened right back up into the city.  The labyrinth cannot fight the Arm.  Everytime I see the 'declare war on southside' mentality, I cringe.  That's an equivalence of some new york city slum declaring war on the National Guard.  Everyone knows that's not going well.  That doesn't prevent riots and crimes of passion and territorial nature with roaming police officers going where they're told not to roam, but it -does- remind them that they're still part of the city at large and connected...which is why business goes the way it goes (or should go, if people would remember the above things).  But the city doesn't want the alleys back, or they'd take them.

Anyway.  The muggers were put in there specifically awhile back because people were blatantly ignoring the world of the labyrinth and running around in whatever gear they wanted and not bothering to try and fit the alleys, and just going up there decked out in armor to kill npc's when there were no pc's around to act as 'concerned citizens'.  It's a longstanding behavior that because the alleys are not patrolled by soldiers, that people up there should be psychopaths who just up and kill people for little to no reason, while even by documentation, this behavior is outright hated.  I get amused when people complain about the work of concerned citizens of the alleys; if you cause trouble up there, you're going to get trouble back.
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tl;dr
A lot of assertions about the alleys here are honest interpretations, but they don't fit into the game world or the game history.  There's nothing wrong with southsiders going to the alleys to drink, but they should expect whatever trouble they invite, to a mildly increased degree from people who actually live there.  In the alleys, the southsider is treated like the half-elf or elf is elsewhere.  Perhaps not with violence, but with a fair amount of disapproval and distaste until they overcome and prove they're worth knowing.  As a result of all the above knowledge of the labyrinth, though, I don't see any problems with the Mantis becoming a direct access route under the conditions stated, and perhaps it would make people stop treating the alleys the way they have for the past like...-eight years-, which is a shitty rendition of murder and mayhem for little to no reason. Instead, maybe they'll see a place to find easy labor (poor mercenaries, essentially) and make connections with people who don't particularly care about the hierarchy of the city, because it doesn't really care about them either.  I do, however, agree with Ath, and think that such changes would be IC endeavors, not OOC ones.

[Armaddict]

The documentation you pointed out seems to have been written by one person who didn't really play in the Labyrinth and just heard about it and how it should work. Sorry -- Just my personal opinion.

I admit to having some problems with it when that 'What you Know' page was first written, but didn't think in the long term enough to contest it;  I thought people would just use it as a loose guideline for new characters, not as a letter of the law of how people had to play to be there.

[bardlyone]

I'm not usually in agreement with Reiloth, but on this, I am.

[Gravity]

Maybe this is getting lost - and I concede to those with better knowledge of the Rinth than me - but to clarify my point:

Just because the Mantis should have people from southside there doesn't mean we have to bring that vNPC population to life and split the player base further to yet another tavern on the other side of the city.

Armaddict: the one point of yours I will address is the first one about T'zai Byn in the Rinth.

We can now assume that there is no vNPC Byn population in the Rinth, in any of the taverns, due to the rules put in place by the Byn.

The point stands that with these rules in place, there's absolutely no reason they would want to change that. You also make the assumption that those rules were put in place because mercenaries went "up there out of boredom to kill muggers and get themselves killed", when really there could have been several reasons behind the scenes you weren't aware of. Suffice to say, I don't see it being likely the Byn would change their minds on that. Why? It's a huge distraction, and the Byn wants its guys focusing on extracting work from one single location: the Gaj. Southside. Sergeants and above are left to handle contracts with the Rinth.

In short: I just don't see it making sense that 1. we should actually open this up as another social hub of the game more than it already is and 2. if we did I just don't see the Byn being allowed to partake.

[Dunetrade55]

No, actually, you don't even have to be familiar with the actual history to deduce why the rinth is shut off to so many. You can simply look at human behavior and judge. Rinthis are RPing greaseball rinthi shit with some murder added to spice things up every so often, which is cool and legit and stuff, because most of te rinthis I've ever played with have shown a good deal of respect for the virtual environment and potential consequences of actions. Then, you have your standard gamer, who may be new to RPIs, who's still adjusting from hack'n slash twinkish behavior. This is not hack'n slash, there's no levels to be gained and your coded skills pale in the face of what a well-connected player can do to you.

The biggest chunk of these wind up in the newbie concentration camp known as the T'zai Byn. I know, because I was once one of those newbies, but eager to learn to RP and not to rack up kills or whatever. Some are not like this and sadly, these examples stand out the most among newbies. Squeeky wheel gets the grease. A lot of people glance at rinth documentation and all they see is "Murderzone free for all", this is disruptive to rinthi plots and immersion breaking, and needs to stop. After enough of this, you end up with "Yes, this is Murderzone, but it's not a free for all deathmatch tournament" from players, and eventually staff trying to keep things legit. So, the virtual environment is made automatically manifest in the form of NPC muggers and mugger crews, to keep it all legit.

You even see it these days, not from clans so much, and not even newbies. You've got the indie guys who want to facerape orphans with a knife for whatever reason, which is a disturbing behavior pattern for residents to contend with, then you've got the clanned guy who steps a few paces down Hathor's to twink scan. Luckily, twinking scan is easier than ever since they threw rats and look as a hemote in the mix, so all you have to do now, in Allanak, to twink scan, is go to the tavern often enough...

But that's a tangent... the point is most people do not even know enough about the rinth to play in it, ever, nor will many try... it's a challenging task and opening up this avenue of RP would be a good way for an aspiring and promising player to dip their toe in the water, instead of being like some strange, secretive cult you have to get initiated into, which is basically what it is now for anyone who's not a complete and utter masochist... which is a shame because rinthi RP is amazing and fun, something people should come to enjoy for its sheer crapsack nature, but never will because the "git gud skrub" stump NPC on the corner is ever so fond of mashing heads for seemingly no reasons. My first PC was killed by rinthi NPCs and I had no freaking clue why, within three hours played. I wanted to learn, but it took years to find just the right PCs to explain, awkwardly, what gets you killed in the rinth, and, those PCs never left the rinth, not when you could see them, at least.

It's an escalation of people twinking and ruining the environment that has led to it being just as innaccessable as it is. It is not a place to put notches on your belt, or a place for twinkishness. Player culture evolved a certain way due to the barriers involved, and I, for one, think it might be time to give them a small, accessible peek at how it works.

[Synthesis]

This tangent about the Mantis is so crazy.

All you have to do is change your damn clothes, people.

Forget all this other theorizing about what the 'rinth is or isn't.

As a practical matter:  all you have to do is CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES.

[Hauwke]

Here is my opinion:

The whole east-side v west-side and bothsides v southside.

It all comes down to a big fat IF becaus would you randomly stab some guy for no reason at all. No there is always a reason, whether the reason is simply 'because I felt like it' or 'he looked at me funny' all the way through to 'he was fucking my girlfriend' you always need a reason even in this chaotic world.
A rinthi will only have an issue with the southsider -IF- they have a reason.

Next is the whole mantis thing, sure I would personally go to the mantis if it was open to Nak, I would likely be among some of the first to get in a mantis brawl with several bynners and such, because thats how I like my Arm, gritty and violent. I would smoke that spice and drink that booze. But you know what? I wouldnt need to be doing that there since I could go somewhere else for spice, or I could go somewhere else for booze. Luirs and Gaj respectively, both places that as far as I know get more RP. Its not aatter of is it open to me, its a matter of will it consistently offer me RP, If you opened the mantis right now I give it a month of everyone gathered in the mantis or so. Until everyone is back at the Gaj and back in Luirs for their spice.

And that isnt even touching on whether people have a valid reason to be there, Again reasons can be as simple as 'I felt like it' but that doesnt make it valid. The rinth isnt just 'A bad neighbourhood' its the difference between an american city and a Brazillian slum in my mind. One is relatively clean (in this case already filthy) and the other is a cesspool of everything shitty and bad (which is compounded upon by the fact this is Arm not real life so double or even triple the shittyness)

[armacc]

Maybe you could switch the Gaj with one of the barracks on Merchant's Road, then you could have one barracks on each end and the Gaj would still be mostly safe, being across from the barracks and the guards lounging in the Gaj's dormitory would make even more sense.