Cafe, More Venues, Stuff like that

[Gravity]

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.

I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.

This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?

If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?

+1

You articulated this better than I could!

[Reiloth]

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.

I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.

This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?

If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?

+1

You articulated this better than I could!

Sorry. One word.

Spice.

[Refugee]

They opened up the Arboretum to be a higher class place than the Red's, but after the first month or so, people seemed to migrate back to the Red's.  I think because you're more likely to have someone to RP with in the Red's.  The idea of the Arboretum makes much more sense for higher class commoners and highborn.

[evilcabbage]

if you want spice, you need to take the risks to get that spice, not get a one-way easy peasy ticket there.

find out ic how you too can become an addict.

[Gravity]

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.

I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.

This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?

If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?

+1

You articulated this better than I could!

Sorry. One word.

Spice.

So now your view has gone from "inspire IC interactions between seedy folk and 'the rest'" to "people should want to go there to buy spice". If these two things were the interconnected plan you had initially, then that's cool but it wasn't the main motivation for opening out the Mantis.

1. Why would the authorities allow an easier route for people, especially mercenaries, who are known to cause trouble in taverns, to buy spice from the Rinth?
2. Why would the west-side or east-side factions allow a neutral location to cut them out of the spice trade, when they have their direct contacts already?
3. Why would the rest of the Rinth want their neutral bar flooded with hundreds of new patrons so they can come get their spice fix and mingle with the criminals?
4. Why would the staff make it easier for people to acquire spice?

I'm sorry to be the nay-sayer here but I really feel like this is a ridiculous idea that just makes no sense ICly!

Edited to add: the sensible discussion was previously about consolidation and not stretching out the playerbase too much. Isn't this suggestion going to worsen the issue?

[Miradus]

Think the player base is too dispersed?

Try casting a spell as a secret gick out on the grasslands during peak.

[Gravity]

Think the player base is too dispersed?

Try casting a spell as a secret gick out on the grasslands during peak.

Be that as it may, I've spent an hour in Red's at peak, with 50 folks on, and didn't see a single person save for one who rushed through to log out. 

[evilcabbage]

Think the player base is too dispersed?

Try casting a spell as a secret gick out on the grasslands during peak.

Code Select Expand

You hear the *snap* of a silenced rifle firing in the distance.
A large caliber bullet tears through your skull!

Welcome to Armageddon!

[Reiloth]

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but hanging out in the 'rinth is an IC thing. You pay a price IC to hang out in the 'rinth and you take some risks being there.

I can't think of any legitimate reason why someone non-rinth would WANT to hang out there and drink bad booze and eat orphan-meat pies unless they were up to some chicanery. If you look at the streets outside, the smell of bodily waste and decaying bodies is prominent.

This is a place your characters would WANT to go when they have access to the Gaj or Red's?

If you want to be non-rinthi but yet also enjoy some Mos Eisley-style scumbag cantina, then why not Red Storm? It's got a pretty scummy bar and a lot of IC lore surrounding it. Yeah, you run the risk of getting ganked by a drov beetle or lost in a storm, but that's IC. You want a safe and secure tunnel to the dive bar in the 'rinth? Maybe a police escort?

+1

You articulated this better than I could!

Sorry. One word.

Spice.

So now your view has gone from "inspire IC interactions between seedy folk and 'the rest'" to "people should want to go there to buy spice". If these two things were the interconnected plan you had initially, then that's cool but it wasn't the main motivation for opening out the Mantis.

1. Why would the authorities allow an easier route for people, especially mercenaries, who are known to cause trouble in taverns, to buy spice from the Rinth?
2. Why would the west-side or east-side factions allow a neutral location to cut them out of the spice trade, when they have their direct contacts already?
3. Why would the rest of the Rinth want their neutral bar flooded with hundreds of new patrons so they can come get their spice fix and mingle with the criminals?
4. Why would the staff make it easier for people to acquire spice?

I'm sorry to be the nay-sayer here but I really feel like this is a ridiculous idea that just makes no sense ICly!

Edited to add: the sensible discussion was previously about consolidation and not stretching out the playerbase too much. Isn't this suggestion going to worsen the issue?

Not even sure really how to respond. I mean...if people want to go to the Mantis to buy spice they can/will. P sure the authorities already know about it.

Also not sure if you already know the Mantis deals spice?

Not sure if that spoils it, but your conjecture seems to be based on non-fact. The point would be driving criminal elements in Allanak together, rather than arbitrary separation.

[Miradus]

Be that as it may, I've spent an hour in Red's at peak, with 50 folks on, and didn't see a single person save for one who rushed through to log out. 

Heh, I know at least 9 different sources of water in the wilderness from the grasslands to the canyons of waste but I only learned last week where Red's is.

I've also walked in on explicit mudsex ON THE ROAD south of Morin's when there were only 7 people logged on. So player dispersal ... meh.

[Gravity]

Not even sure really how to respond. I mean...if people want to go to the Mantis to buy spice they can/will. P sure the authorities already know about it.

Also not sure if you already know the Mantis deals spice?

Not sure if that spoils it, but your conjecture seems to be based on non-fact. The point would be driving criminal elements in Allanak together, rather than arbitrary separation.

If people want to go to the Mantis, they currently have that option available - I'm not disputing that. It's not a secret they sell spice I'm sure. The question I'm debating is whether we need to open the Mantis to make it easier for people to do that, ICly and OOCly...

[evilcabbage]

no we do not need to open it. i fpeople want spice they can go find ways to get it without staff making it easier for them.

[Gravity]

no we do not need to open it. i fpeople want spice they can go find ways to get it without staff making it easier for them.

I've already answered "no" to this as well, but I was just trying to pull us back on track

[Lizzie]

This isn't about making it easier to find spice. It's about the OP wanting more options, and a bunch of us agreeing that the current location of the Gaj doesn't seem to make much sense, considering the rough-and-tumble types who do NOT hang out in the rinth, have their headquarters on the complete opposite side of the city. The merchant houses are all on the opposite side of the city, so all the hunters and crafters are headquartered there as well. The main marketplace is on the opposite side of the city, and there is a stable, the salt buyer, and the shit buyer, all on the opposite side of the city.

So it really doesn't make much sense for the Gaj to be where it is. However, it is where it is. And so - what would be an alternative to moving the Gaj, that doesn't involve moving the Gaj? Adding another bar - wouldn't be the best alternative. But there already IS another bar - the Mantis, on the other side of the city. The only problem, is that it's separated from the southern end of the city by a wall, right outside the Byn compound.

Well hey - how about - poking a hole in that wall, with the restriction that the Byn can go into that bar, but aren't allowed to go beyond it? And - that bar would still be considered the Rinth, subject to the rules of the alleys and NOT the rules of the southern side of the city. And - for an added bonus, provide a means for the Byn to do "tavern watch" as part of their scheduled duties. As a contracted mercenary thing between the Byn and the Mantis's proprietors.

That's what this is about. To give people who spend half their gaming time just walking to and from one end of the city to the other, only to find that it's time to go right back to the other side of the city to get to their scheduled chores again, an alternative to doing that.

[evilcabbage]

i want to explain how that would not be a good idea because it would make it far too easy to access spice, when it isn't supposed to be easy in the city, and would encourage people to go to the mantis, smoke up, then go to training high off spice.

i want to explain that there is no way the city itself would authorize any sort of hole that would give easy access to spice.

i'm just going to say no, that idea will not work, and leave it there.

[LauraMars]

Deleting taverns from the game won't make players automatically congregate at the remaining taverns. They will just find different places to roleplay that haven't been made all weird by artificially forcing social castes together.

Intrigue and plots in the cities will make players congregate in taverns.

[evilcabbage]

Deleting taverns from the game won't make players automatically congregate at the remaining taverns. They will just find different places to roleplay that haven't been made all weird by artificially forcing social castes together.

Intrigue and plots in the cities will make players congregate in taverns.

yerp.

yerp.

[Kankfly]

The reason why the Mantis should remain as is, is simply because the Mantis is a rinthi bar. This just comes back to my previous question:

Why would someone who is not from the rinth go into the rinth unless they are A, looking for trouble, B, stupid, or C, bored?

[IntuitiveApathy]

Deleting taverns from the game won't make players automatically congregate at the remaining taverns. They will just find different places to roleplay that haven't been made all weird by artificially forcing social castes together.

Intrigue and plots in the cities will make players congregate in taverns.

Intrigue and plots are fostered by players interacting with each other, and players interact with each other more if they are spread out over fewer gathering points/social venues.  Further, if these venues are placed closer to where players are coming from, or can transit between each gathering point more quickly, it would result in more time for said interaction to occur, and more interaction will lead to more intrigue and plots.  OOC'ly, most players have limited time to play (some of you do need to sleep sometime, right?).  IC'ly, many clanned characters have certain schedules they follow (or are expected to follow), they are constrained or dictate their own schedule by the day/night/gate/merchant cycles, or some characters are so busy they have to parcel their time out.  Having to walk across the city cuts into the time available for interaction, and so necessarily cuts down interaction, and less interaction means less intrigue and less plots.

The idea of having less Allanaki taverns or Allanaki taverns moved closer together is really is just an extension of the rationale behind the closure of Tuluk - consolidating the playerbase to foster more interaction - though I would argue it is a less dramatic and drastic action.  There are still all of the private spaces (clan, apartment or otherwise), or all of the  public spaces in between if players want to gather elsewhere.

With respect to the specific concern about social strata being mashed together artificially, I don't think anyone's actually suggested that yet as I don't want think anyone wants to get rid of an entire strata of social spaces (ie. let's wipe out all the high-end taverns).  I'm not even sure the suggestion about opening a south entrance to the Mantis so southsiders can more easily get in really counts, as most would expect only the rough-and-tumble would want to go in anyway, such as inclined Bynners or what have you.  Even if we do want to go to the extent of mashing the social strata together into certain spaces, this could presumably be dealt with by having the the social spaces internally stratified (as has been pointed out has been done before), or externally with just closer proximity so that there is a somewhat greater chance of the varied strata running into each other.  If one day we ended with just a single social space where PC's of all stripes gathered, I'm sure the mashing up of the social strata could be dealt with in a number of ways IC'ly really.  Imagine all the varied interaction and plots that would spawn from such an environment.  I personally think it'd be a positive for the game.

[Evilone]

I'd love to see the Gaj moved closer to the arena. It makes a lot of sense IG, considering it's affiliation to the arena. Vennant decides to build another place. It's been ongoing for ages. Wham, new tavern. The tavern in Tuluk was right near the arena. It worked. You will still see quite a lot of traffic going to the west side of the city. Magickers coming and going from the quarter, plus the stables are there, and lots of people like to go hunting out the west gate. I'd also suggest letting Borsail grab some ownership of the place. Much of their clan focuse is heavy on stuff that just doesn't really happen anymore. There biggest drive for a while seems to be to do with the arena. Let them have the arena tavern to monitor, and I'd add fighting pits to it. You have your arena events for big gladiator fights, but you could be running smaller events impromptu for fighters who want to fight for coin and blood.

Gaj - Low/Middle/Lower Upper Class. Main room for everyone, second lounge for aides, gmh, and nobles. Fighting pits. A few poor apartment rooms, a few middle-class, and a few upper-class. No affiliation needed -- Niche is for fights in blood pit, and hangout and apartments central in city.

Reds - Middle class/Lower Upper Class. Stage in main room, add a gambling den. Add more scripts like the ball game, where you pay coins and can try to be the champion of different games -- Niche is hosting performances, or competitions of games like kruth, darts, and so on.

Arboretum - Upper Middle Class (Agents+)/Upper Class only. Or, give the junior nobles something to aspire too. Make it only the last level of rank noble PCs can get. So it's a big show off thing when your given permission to enter on your own. -- Niche is being totally awesome. Add a special tattooist, so on.

Mantis - Lower Class only. Personally, I'd like to see the Mantis more centralized in the rinth, so it's really that middle ground safe zone, and becomes more accessible from outsiders. Everything else should remain dangerous as feck though, and if you stepped out the back door to the alleys, you get a shiv. I think having it easier for bynners to hang out there is fine, for one reason, spice. Increase the npc prices if need be, so the PCs who deal in spice are more valued and targetted. Hanging out in the mantis with more outsiders coming in looking for them might make their jobs a little more interesting as they get a good reason to idle at the mantis.

Btw, don't shoot. Just bouncing ideas.

[evilcabbage]

i like evilone's idea, kind of, actually.

that would make sense.

and the mantis is kind of... central...

wait, i don't think i've ever actually gone -to- the mantis.

is it not centralized in the rinth?

[Barsook]

Be that as it may, I've spent an hour in Red's at peak, with 50 folks on, and didn't see a single person save for one who rushed through to log out. 

Very true.  Many times that I spent time in Red's at peak and there is barely anyone to interact.  And I was playing a character that was told to not be in the Gaj,  Either I don't know how to find interaction or Allanak really only needs two taverns that the player-base can use, along with some meeting place for the Highborn BUT not to hang around and just chat.

Also, as stated in the thread a few times, I'm alright with the Gaj moving nearer to the Arena but maybe have Red's close and only have the Arboretum open for the Middle class/Upper Middle and Highborns (the Gardens and on).  Perhaps, the Arboretum also can act like a meeting place for those who need it (Highborn).

(Didn't we have this problem in Tuluk before the shrink?)

[evilcabbage]

there was the sanctuary, the tooth, and the firestorm (vestric) in tuluk.

the tooth and vestric were any and all comers.

the sanctuary was inked only.

also, tuluk just had a small playerbase because it wasn't as good as allanak *heh heh*

[Kankfly]

Except the Byn don't go into the rinth.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the Mantis is a suitable location. The rinth isn't ever meant to be visited by casual curious people who want to hang out and chill. That function is already covered by the Gaj. Unless, like I pointed out earlier: They're looking for trouble - Which can mean a lot of things. They go in there looking for spice, they go in there looking for specific people to handle certain jobs of discretion for them, they go in there hoping to deal with things that aren't kosher with the law, etc. Or boredom, curiosity spurred on by OOCness to check out the bad side of town, because what sort of person that doesn't come from the slums would go to the slums anyway (unless for the above 'looking for trouble' reason)?

If you're talking about 'spice', then this is already handled by PCs, and should continue be handled by PCs because that promotes interaction. I feel that if we keep encouraging NPC merchants, then we decrease the opportunity to interact for things.

(Edited for an extra word that I just randomly spotted in there. Go figure.)

[Reiloth]

Except the Byn don't go into the rinth.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the Mantis is a suitable location. The rinth isn't ever meant to be visited by casual curious people who want to hang out and chill. That function is already covered by the Gaj. Unless, like I pointed out earlier: They're looking for trouble - Which can mean a lot of things. They go in there looking for spice, they go in there looking for specific people to handle certain jobs of discretion for them, they go in there hoping to deal with things that aren't kosher with the law, etc. Or boredom, curiosity spurred on by OOCness to check out the bad side of town, because what sort of person that doesn't come from the slums would go to the slums anyway (unless for the above 'looking for trouble' reason)?

If you're talking about 'spice', then this is already handled by PCs, and should continue be handled by PCs because that promotes interaction. I feel that if we keep encouraging NPC merchants, then we decrease the opportunity to interact for things.

(Edited for an extra word that I just randomly spotted in there. Go figure.)

I disagree. A large swath of the Rinthi population are supposed to be spice-heads, people down on their luck and unable to afford living in Allanak proper. Yes, many of the people in the Labyrinth are born and die there. In fact, I like to play Rinthers that rarely go Southside, or if they do, only for a limited time, and would never set foot in something as fancy as an apartment. However, the 'tenements' are supposedly populated by immigrants for lack of a better word. Having the Mantis accessible actually, in my mind, creates a deeper background and capability for Southsiders to not only interact with the Labyrinth, but to create that funneled desire/outlet for the grains of spice given out like drops of water to someone dying of thirst.

The Labyrinth is made out to be this walled off 'Forbidden City', which it is in a sense due to PC reactions (Byn can never go to the Labyrinth, ew the Labyrinth). But as I mention above, yes, people go to the Labyrinth to score drugs and probably get cheap hookers and for the black market. These things need to be played up, not played down, in my opinion. The Rinth shouldn't be a destination, but it should be a red light district (at least in the Middles). Growing up in Los Angeles, you get an idea of what areas are 'Gangland' and what areas are not. It's street by street in some places, and especially at night some areas that are fairly mundane become rather dangerous if you aren't paying attention. But we should also point out that things like 'Eastside is Elves Only' and "Westside is Humans Only' is a fairly recent PC spin on things. It wasn't always that way, just as the Labyrinth wasn't 'Off Limits to Southsiders'. And I don't think it should be. I think the Mantis is exactly the place that Southsiders should go to as a destination -- For Drugs, for cheap sex, for gambling, for shady jobs.

Is it about Spice? Not exactly, but it makes perfect sense in my mind why the Mantis would be open to Southsiders and Rinthers alike, in the 'No Man's Land' of the Middles.

In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.

When you talk about Spice existing in the PC realm -- It's a pipe dream. Yes, when PCs are around and they are dealing spice, it's great. But the 'in practice' of Spice is it will always have an NPC element to it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of the IC stuff, but when there are PCs around smuggling spice, it's great. When there aren't, it comes to a complete standstill. It's absolutely annoying. Spice needs to be more common, not less. And I don't mean common as in 'Not Illegal', but it's like...When there isn't even a supply train coming in, who cares that it is illegal? It's like making Cocaine illegal but there isn't actually any cocaine anywhere that people are regularly snorting/turning into crack. It's a non-issue, if people don't even have an iota of access.