Cafe, More Venues, Stuff like that

[Dunetrade55]

While the documentation says southsiders and businesspersons often take their business underground, into the rinth, away from the watchful eye of insatiably greedy Templars, trying to do this very thing can result in local PCs enforcing the current perception of the rinth, which is, in part, aided by NPCs in numerous locations, the details of which I won't divulge. If there were a slightly less dangerous, but not entirely permissive, entrance to the Mantis, this could go a long way toward encouraging the current documentation... otherwise, may as well just rewrite the current documentation to go with continual PC enforcement, but I'm not really a huge fan of that route.

It could really kick up interest in the rinth, by providing an RP outlet to players who may, perhaps, otherwise be too intimidated to indulge in some greasebag RP, and they may consider rolling a future PC up in the rinth. I can see the benefits of this. I can also see the benefits of moving the Gaj closer to the Arena, as this would make it less of a slog for your average slimeball/low-tier merchant house employee, while still not parking it right next door. Someone pointed out people have limited time to play the game, and when you heap schedules on top of it, it makes that long slog even less enticing, as you'll frequently have to turn around almost as soon as you get there. As I've noticed, many people are finding it somewhat absurd players are hidden away in compounds or apartments at peak and make central cultural locations feel unnaturally empty, and I think making the place more practical to the intended market share would do some to relieve this particular phenomena.

I would keep the Gaj apartments as they currently are, either with a new bartender, or maybe just some low-class market in the downstairs room, and in the new Gaj also put apartments, and scalable walls and what have you. I, personally, see little lost, indeed, much opportunity for soliciting player RP, with a new location. The alternative would be to shorten the streets, but that seems like it'd be a fairly heavy amount of work, and I get the sneaking suspicion that in some points, this has been done, but it's purely anecdotal evidence from my fuzzy newb memories when everything seemed bigger than it really was.

[Dunetrade55]

(on top of that I just got an idea for a bitchin' PC I won't discuss because I'm about to write up an app for it right now, it's very vaugely related to certain subject matters at hand)

[WanderingOoze]

I don't have much of an opinion either way on adding new taverns/opening mantis side of things.

I just want to chime in and say I think The idea of fighting pits in the Gaj would be awesome.
One of my biggest annoyances is tavern brawlers, sure it can be fun. But it rarely ever settles
any real disputes. When it's just a big 'for the hell of it, freindly brawl' type thing, sure it's fun.
but sometimes two PC's really have beef with each other, and fisticuffs just isn't enough. Or
you have the 'loser' of the brawl still not learn their lesson and smugly brush off their asskicking because
'Just a dumb tavern fight, it doesnt prove anything, in a real fight I'd kick your ass'   I'd love to be able to
be like 'Oh yeah, let's see about that' And invite them to the bloodpits to settle it once and for all.

[Feco]

In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.

This is an excellent explanation of why I thought it was a good idea.

[Evilone]

Reiloth said a heap of stuff...

Best explination I feel. Nailed it. Completely agree.

I'd also like to see apartments in the rinth, adding more shops, so on, but that's probably another topic I'm not gonna get into right now.

[Cabooze]

Silver ginka -> Give rentable apartments/offices -> You will see people sitting in there sipping their northerner tea

[Lizzie]

Silver ginka -> Give rentable apartments/offices -> You will see people sitting in there sipping their northerner tea

Honestly, you won't. Most people who frequent the Gaj never buy a thing, and even fewer buy anything at Red's. Tea is already available at the Gaj, and it's only a rare PC who ever buys it.

[a french mans shirt]

The cost of the food at Red's is the main thing I feel makes it feel more upper-class than it should. If the prices were cut or a couple of cheaper food items added I could see it working a little better. I've NEVER seen someone buy food at Red's, save myself, and I used the wrong keyword, as I was trying to buy a drink.

[Taven]

The Labyrinth is made out to be this walled off 'Forbidden City', which it is in a sense due to PC reactions (Byn can never go to the Labyrinth, ew the Labyrinth). But as I mention above, yes, people go to the Labyrinth to score drugs and probably get cheap hookers and for the black market.  [...]  I think the Mantis is exactly the place that Southsiders should go to as a destination -- For Drugs, for cheap sex, for gambling, for shady jobs.

Is it about Spice? Not exactly, but it makes perfect sense in my mind why the Mantis would be open to Southsiders and Rinthers alike, in the 'No Man's Land' of the Middles.

But what you're talking about is actually changing the dynamics of how the city works as a whole, rather then what is currently true.

Because currently, the Labyrinth is a lawless place that soldiers stay out of, where you'll be killed if you have even something remotely valuable looking on you. It's a vicious, dangerous place. The reason that many clans don't let their people go there is not some arbitrarily PC-generated reason. It's because it's legitimately deadly, and you don't want your clan members dying.

I'd also add that nobody in their right mind would want to kank a 'rinthi whore over a poor southside whore, because the odds of getting some horrible disease are that much higher (even if this is only a virtual risk).

In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.

Your post details why 'rinthi are actually just down on their luck Allanaki. Why is it awkward for a 'rinthi to be in the Gaj (which is one of the seediest bars in the entire Known), but not awkward for a southsider to be in the Mantis? I'd argue that a 'rinthi has a lot more legitimate reasons to be in the Gaj then a southsider has to be in the 'rinth.

When you talk about Spice existing in the PC realm -- It's a pipe dream. Yes, when PCs are around and they are dealing spice, it's great. But the 'in practice' of Spice is it will always have an NPC element to it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of the IC stuff, but when there are PCs around smuggling spice, it's great. When there aren't, it comes to a complete standstill. It's absolutely annoying. Spice needs to be more common, not less. And I don't mean common as in 'Not Illegal', but it's like...When there isn't even a supply train coming in, who cares that it is illegal? It's like making Cocaine illegal but there isn't actually any cocaine anywhere that people are regularly snorting/turning into crack. It's a non-issue, if people don't even have an iota of access.

Yeah, but getting spice should be something that's fairly dangerous and risky, right? Because there are ways to get spice as a southsider now... But there's some risk involved.

There's more then one clan out there that deals with spice and making it available. If it's not working effectively, then I would say that a large portion of it is due to Arm's decreased playerbase. Looking at 'rezoning' to make it more effective could be an option for how to make spice-related crime (smuggling or obtaining) more viable.

[Taven]

While the documentation says southsiders and businesspersons often take their business underground, into the rinth, away from the watchful eye of insatiably greedy Templars, trying to do this very thing can result in local PCs enforcing the current perception of the rinth, which is, in part, aided by NPCs in numerous locations, the details of which I won't divulge. If there were a slightly less dangerous, but not entirely permissive, entrance to the Mantis, this could go a long way toward encouraging the current documentation... otherwise, may as well just rewrite the current documentation to go with continual PC enforcement, but I'm not really a huge fan of that route.

Could you provide links to where the documentation says this?

I took a look, but the only documentation I found said that the 'rinth is an extremely dangerous place.

Take a look: (emphasis mine)

Labyrinth (Cities)

The Labyrinth (or rinth) is the common slang term used for the northernmost quarter of the city of Allanak, due to its maze of alleyways that thread about the ramshackle buildings within it. Once it was merely the quarter for the lower classes of Allanak. But, over the last several hundred years as the rich became progressively richer and the poor, poorer the quarter has degenerated into a decayed and disease ridden slum.

In recent days, the 'rinth has become more than just the home to the desperate, the unwanted, or racially undesirable. Generations of its inhabitants have been born, lived and died in Tektolnes' chamber- pot of human life. Now, not only do the general citizenry of Allanak avoid this dark ghetto, but the militia of the city dare not enter as well.

The Labyrinth has formed its own culture of sorts, apart from the rest of the city. Racial or purely random violence is a common occurrence. Street gangs roam wild in the winding alleyways, looking for the lone and unsuspecting. Packs of children have been known to kill the unwary for nothing more than the hopes of a scrap of food. And darker, more unsavory organizations have embraced the chaos and turmoil of the rinth and made it their home.

Some clips from the overall page:

Labyrinth Details (What You Know)

Society:

If you're from the Labyrinth, your character has occupied a position of abject poverty and squalor for all of his or her life. Hunger and violence (racial or purely random) has been a daily occurence. Disease perpetually stalks the streets. Your character knows that street gangs roam wild in the winding alleyways, looking for the lone and unsuspecting, and that packs of children have been known to kill the unwary for nothing more than the hope of a scrap of food. In short, life in the 'rinth has been a difficult test for your character. There is no rule to creating a 'rinther character's personality but the above should be reflected when creating their history and characteristics.

It is important to note that due to the rough conditions in the 'rinth many people (both PC and NPC) might not wish you well. People living there are desperate and may try to take advantage of you. Don't let this discourage you - part of being a 'rinther lies in the challenge of dealing with and overcoming this harshness. Thinking, dressing and acting like a 'rinther will greatly help you in this regard.

Given the above, it is no surprise that the average 'rinther will generally treat a fellow inhabitant of the alleys with considerable suspicion and mistrust upon first meeting them. This attitude is often magnified when a Westsider meets an Eastsider or vice versa. However, this Westside - Eastside mutual suspicion would probably not be as great as a situation where a 'rinther meets a person who is not from the alleys. All other things being equal, a 'rinther would be more likely to side with another 'rinther than somebody not from the alleys. However, this "bond" is loose at best and, as a 'rinther, not one you'd like to have to depend on.

The 'rinth is more than just a home to Allanak's desperate, unwanted, or racially undesirable people. Many generations of inhabitants of the 'rinth have been born, lived and died in Tektolnes' chamber-pot of human life. It is common knowledge that darker, more unsavoury organizations have embraced the chaos and turmoil of the 'rinth and made it their home. This, coupled with the fact that the general citizenry and militia of Allanak avoid this dark ghetto, has given most 'rinthers an insular "them vs. us" attitude. A person not from the 'rinth found wandering the alleys would be viewed with a deal of suspicion. After all, why would any sane person willingly come into such a filthy and dangerous place? This semi-isolation from the rest of the city also leaves the average 'rinther with, at best, a scant knowledge of what's what outside the 'rinth. The doings of noble houses, merchant houses, templars, etc. are of little meaning to most 'rinthers, whose chief concerns are getting food in their bellies and staying alive.

[evilcabbage]

Allanak                                                              (Cities)

  Allanak is possibly the richest single civilization in the Known World,
in total wealth. This prosperity is, however, very unevenly distributed
across the population. The life of the average Allanaki citizen is one of
strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, coupled with a nearly
omnipotent ruler who watches every move his subjects make. The nobility
live in opulent splendor, as do the templar servants of the city-state's
king, the Highlord Tektolnes.
  The city occupies the central part of the Southlands region once known
as Vrun Driath, and is surrounded by desert and wastelands on all sides.
Food supplies come from numerous small farming villages in the area, as
well as from Red Storm East. Allanak is the foremost source of obsidian
armor and weaponry in the Known World, controlling its own obsidian
mines some distance west of the city.
  For all its richness, the economy of Allanak is typically undergoing
wild fluctuations and is under much strain. Wrote Tektolnes's Senior
Templar (and bastard child) Cohran, "His Gloriousness's recent attempt to
purify the minds of his people by banning the trade of the spice will
certainly have grave ramifications on the well-being of the average man."
And so it appeared to have been: with merchants murdered in the night and
secret dealings in dark alleys, much of the Allanaki economy has moved
underground, the result being that many more honest merchants have been
driven out of business, and the general prosperity has declined. While the
banning of spice was made many years ago now, its repercussions are still
felt in the modern style of Allanaki trade.
  The city is divided into several Quarters. While most citizens are free
to come and go as they will, three sections of the city are worthy of
special mention: the Templars' Quarter, the Nobles' Quarter, and the
Labyrinth. The Templars' and Nobles' Quarters are open only to the nobility
and the Templarate of Allanak, and to their servants and slaves. The
Labyrinth (often referred to as the 'rinth) is home to most of Allanak's
criminal population, and most citizens avoid it like the plague. Strangely
enough, the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized
business contracts are negotiated, now that much of the economy has gone
underground.
  Every whim of Highlord Tektolnes instantly becomes Allanaki law, and his
templar soldier-priests enforce it with brutal efficiency. The nobles of
the city are the Highlord's puppets, their lives spent gathering popular
support and serving in a Senate whose decisions are somehow always in
perfect accord with His Gloriousness's latest decree. Some of the more
commonly known of the noble houses are: Borsail, Tor, Oash, Fale, and
Rennik.

think he's referring to that?

[Reiloth]

It's more that the documentation was written and edited by one or two people and didn't really account for like...Where people come from? And that people go to bad parts of town for sex and drugs? If you think Zalanthans are concerned with or believe in STDs, I think you are projecting modern sensibilities. The idea of disease transfer by saliva semen and blood is a relatively new discovery. We're talking about people who blame magic sooner than science.

More later, typing with my thumb.

[Dunetrade55]

Thanks for the unexpected backup, Cabbage, yes, that is exactly what I was referring to... now I don't have to dig for it.

[Gravity]

Except the Byn don't go into the rinth.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the Mantis is a suitable location. The rinth isn't ever meant to be visited by casual curious people who want to hang out and chill. That function is already covered by the Gaj. Unless, like I pointed out earlier: They're looking for trouble - Which can mean a lot of things. They go in there looking for spice, they go in there looking for specific people to handle certain jobs of discretion for them, they go in there hoping to deal with things that aren't kosher with the law, etc. Or boredom, curiosity spurred on by OOCness to check out the bad side of town, because what sort of person that doesn't come from the slums would go to the slums anyway (unless for the above 'looking for trouble' reason)?

If you're talking about 'spice', then this is already handled by PCs, and should continue be handled by PCs because that promotes interaction. I feel that if we keep encouraging NPC merchants, then we decrease the opportunity to interact for things.

(Edited for an extra word that I just randomly spotted in there. Go figure.)

I disagree. A large swath of the Rinthi population are supposed to be spice-heads, people down on their luck and unable to afford living in Allanak proper. Yes, many of the people in the Labyrinth are born and die there. In fact, I like to play Rinthers that rarely go Southside, or if they do, only for a limited time, and would never set foot in something as fancy as an apartment. However, the 'tenements' are supposedly populated by immigrants for lack of a better word. Having the Mantis accessible actually, in my mind, creates a deeper background and capability for Southsiders to not only interact with the Labyrinth, but to create that funneled desire/outlet for the grains of spice given out like drops of water to someone dying of thirst.

The Labyrinth is made out to be this walled off 'Forbidden City', which it is in a sense due to PC reactions (Byn can never go to the Labyrinth, ew the Labyrinth). But as I mention above, yes, people go to the Labyrinth to score drugs and probably get cheap hookers and for the black market. These things need to be played up, not played down, in my opinion. The Rinth shouldn't be a destination, but it should be a red light district (at least in the Middles). Growing up in Los Angeles, you get an idea of what areas are 'Gangland' and what areas are not. It's street by street in some places, and especially at night some areas that are fairly mundane become rather dangerous if you aren't paying attention. But we should also point out that things like 'Eastside is Elves Only' and "Westside is Humans Only' is a fairly recent PC spin on things. It wasn't always that way, just as the Labyrinth wasn't 'Off Limits to Southsiders'. And I don't think it should be. I think the Mantis is exactly the place that Southsiders should go to as a destination -- For Drugs, for cheap sex, for gambling, for shady jobs.

Is it about Spice? Not exactly, but it makes perfect sense in my mind why the Mantis would be open to Southsiders and Rinthers alike, in the 'No Man's Land' of the Middles.

In a meta sense, it is about homogenizing the criminal and less savory elements of Allanak. What stands out more to me like a sore thumb is Rinthers hanging out in the Gaj, because they are starved for interaction. Allowing for the Mantis to be a watering hole for both Rinthers and Nakkis looking to score a pinch (or a job), makes much more sense in a game design sense.

When you talk about Spice existing in the PC realm -- It's a pipe dream. Yes, when PCs are around and they are dealing spice, it's great. But the 'in practice' of Spice is it will always have an NPC element to it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of the IC stuff, but when there are PCs around smuggling spice, it's great. When there aren't, it comes to a complete standstill. It's absolutely annoying. Spice needs to be more common, not less. And I don't mean common as in 'Not Illegal', but it's like...When there isn't even a supply train coming in, who cares that it is illegal? It's like making Cocaine illegal but there isn't actually any cocaine anywhere that people are regularly snorting/turning into crack. It's a non-issue, if people don't even have an iota of access.

What you're suggesting will incentivize another major PC hub across the other side of the city. Most of the discussion in the thread has been about pulling the hubs closer together.

Your ideas are cool and valid, but we don't want to drive people to yet another destination they can tavern sit in the game.

[Taven]

Allanak                                                              (Cities)

  The city is divided into several Quarters. While most citizens are free to come and go as they will, three sections of the city are worthy of special mention: the Templars' Quarter, the Nobles' Quarter, and the Labyrinth. The Templars' and Nobles' Quarters are open only to the nobility and the Templarate of Allanak, and to their servants and slaves. The Labyrinth (often referred to as the 'rinth) is home to most of Allanak's criminal population, and most citizens avoid it like the plague. Strangely enough, the 'rinth is also where many of the city's small to medium-sized business contracts are negotiated, now that much of the economy has gone underground.

think he's referring to that?

I changed the bolding to encompass the entire section before the one you pointed out, because it seems like the majority of citizens still think it's nuts to go into the 'rinth.

I would presume, having established that the majority of the Labryinthi are criminals, that a large number of the contracts mentioned are illegal. This would match with the "underground economy" probably referring to spice or other illegal things.

Even the established danger of the 'rinth, and the agreement that most people are avoiding it, it probably wouldn't be crazy to assume that anybody going there for these business contracts has some sort of protection agreement with the 'rinthi powers that be.

[Taven]

It's more that the documentation was written and edited by one or two people and didn't really account for like...Where people come from? And that people go to bad parts of town for sex and drugs? If you think Zalanthans are concerned with or believe in STDs, I think you are projecting modern sensibilities. The idea of disease transfer by saliva semen and blood is a relatively new discovery. We're talking about people who blame magic sooner than science.

More later, typing with my thumb.

No, there's actually an IC basis for knowing that there are diseases transmitted sexually. Zangu-la (crotch rot) is a commonly-known sexually transmitted disease:

Zagu-La (Disease)

A person suffering from any number of the symptoms of genital itching, pus filled urine, irritating groin rash, or genital sores is generally said to have Zagu-La. Also called Crotch Rot by the lowest classes, this extraordinarily common affliction is spread sexually, and, some scholars and physicians argue, is likely Zalanthas's most prevalent ailment. There are almost as many treatments to prevent or cure this self limited condition as there are sands in the Red Desert, particularly among those in the sex trade. The measures include various charmed body tattoos, wooden talismans, and in Allanak the practice of eating one rotten fruit a week.

That's why you'll ICly encounter references to the quality of whores and if they're clean or not, as well.

[evilcabbage]

i realize that this is somewhat off topic, but on the subject of venues, trade, and sex in particular - the food rot code (spoiled fruit) can now be used for those who want to rp the one rotten fruit a week thing.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Just a note here:

My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.

[Reiloth]

Just a note here:

My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[Taven]

Just a note here:

My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

The Labyrinth is full of desperate, destitute people, most if not all of whom would stab someone for a pair of boots, a handful of 'sid, or some food. Are most actively engaged in Guild-level activities that involve high-level assassinations, spice smuggling, and extortion? No, of course not.

Are a notable portion of 'Rinthi involved with various gangs who run territories, either actively involved in questing to take people's things, or paying a tribute--based on any money they can scrounge--to those gangs? I think that virtually speaking, it's pretty likely. In terms of PCs, there's not really a full enough population to represent that.

[Gravity]

Just a note here:

My understanding is that most of the Labyrinth's citizens are not criminals, but most of Allanak's criminals reside in the Labyrinth. Most of the Labyrinth's citizens are dead broke and can't afford to live anywhere else. Among these lost souls hide most of Allanak's criminal element.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Wait, I'm super confused by what your point is anymore.

We were discussing the fact that we shouldn't be stretching out the gameworld further than we need to, which was brought up after a few people said we need more taverns opened.

Do some non-criminal folks go and hang out at the Mantis? Uh sure, maybe? Probably?

Do we want to actually bring to life that vNPC population so that we can have more PCs go play at the Mantis? No, I don't think so.

[a french mans shirt]

Reiloth said a heap of stuff...

Best explination I feel. Nailed it. Completely agree.

I'd also like to see apartments in the rinth, adding more shops, so on, but that's probably another topic I'm not gonna get into right now.

If the rinth was a little more 'livable' in a way, maybe with coded ways to stay in the rinth and make money for food there, and a few more shops, a set of apartments on either side, I think that would be great. Right now you got rinthis hunting, salting etc. and everyone turns a blind eye because they know there's no options for nonhumans and maybe one or two options for humans to make a living, both of which require certain guild/subguild combinations and being gud.

[Miradus]

In my limited 'rinth experience, it's the most boring thing in all of the Known. There's 30 or so rooms you can IC exist in, bucket crab NPC's who will kill you if you find a nice pair of shoes, and hardly any other players to interact with ever.

Except when there were other players, they were roleplaying cannibals who molested and ate children ('rinthi orphans) in order to IC justify their OOC mass slaughter of the 'rinth inhabitants. You spend half of your time looking for someone to interact with and then the other half of your time trying to get away from who you found.

It was enjoyable to roleplay a scumbag 'rinthi from the 'rinth, but not to rolepay a 'rinthi IN the 'rinth.

[nauta]

In my limited 'rinth experience, it's the most boring thing in all of the Known. There's 30 or so rooms you can IC exist in, bucket crab NPC's who will kill you if you find a nice pair of shoes, and hardly any other players to interact with ever.

Except when there were other players, they were roleplaying cannibals who molested and ate children ('rinthi orphans) in order to IC justify their OOC mass slaughter of the 'rinth inhabitants. You spend half of your time looking for someone to interact with and then the other half of your time trying to get away from who you found.

It was enjoyable to roleplay a scumbag 'rinthi from the 'rinth, but not to rolepay a 'rinthi IN the 'rinth.

That sounds awesome!  But yeah, the great thing about the rinth as an option is you can either

1. play someone in the rinth (which I quite enjoy -- the crazy cannibal or the primitive sewer dweller)

2. or play someone from the rinth trying to get out.

[Dunetrade55]

In my personal experience, the crazy cannibal child-killing asshole gets hunted down and dumped for coins for a kebob. It's not that everyone cares about the dead children, it's that some personalities are too dangerous to let grow into the crazy cannibal adult killing asshole, for whom you might be the next meal. Hardly a hard and fast rule, depending on alliances, but playing like a feckless twink in the rinth can get you dumped.