Guild Transparency

[Dakota]

not a fan of transparency so no. everyone loves a good mystery.

[Hauwke]

Well Rgs. You have out rgs'd yourself again. Kudos for effort!

[Rathustra]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

lol

edit: I've been trying to think of a way to expand this reply as obviously it's not very helpful. But I'm coming up with nothing. So, I'm sorry. I disagree with everything you say here and elsewhere in the thread though. But it's such a fundamental disagreement that I'm not sure there's any room for debate or discussion. I think this is the best comment to reply directly to because it has the right mix of hyperbolic condemnation and extreme conclusions to sum up my being nonplussed.

[Hauwke]

Stuff

To be fair Rath, I too dislike the fact it was changed. I would have loved to see full elemenalists left in, However I do think the split has been good for the game from what I have seen.

People with their first karma, probably from a long lived PC who have never dealt with magic much?
They can now try out a touched guild and give magick a very small tap on its shoulder, tiny tap mini thing that it is, but still a tap.

And guess what everyone? If you can gain an understanding of magick from that it leads to you being able to play a 'proper' magicker with real power.

Sure your rukkian cant cast pocketsand anymore but he can ranger it up instead and he doesnt need pocketsand because he has maxxxed archery etc.


Tl;dr?
Stuff I both like and dislike the change.

[Yam]

If they removed pocketsand from Rukkians I fucking quit.

[Rathustra]

If they removed pocketsand from Rukkians I fucking quit.

We put it into five of the eight 'sub-facets' of the elemental demi-spheres: ruk-empower-torque-particulate, ruk-creation-silicates-natural, ruk-protection-ineffective-particulate.

Though you can only cast them if your relationship to the sand is neutral or better and while in a room currently under the gaze of Tywod, eternal guardian and celestial king of shores and open deserts.

Also we nerfed the damage to 3+5di per level.

[AdamBlue]

If they removed pocketsand from Rukkians I fucking quit.

We put it into five of the eight 'sub-facets' of the elemental demi-spheres: ruk-empower-torque-particulate, ruk-creation-silicates-natural, ruk-protection-ineffective-particulate.

Though you can only cast them if your relationship to the sand is neutral or better and while in a room currently under the gaze of Tywod, eternal guardian and celestial king of shores and open deserts.

Also we nerfed the damage to 3+5di per level.

RATH THIS IS THE FUCKING LAST STRAW, THE ONE THAT BROKE THE INIX'S BACK I SWEAR TO GOD HOW DARE YOU ALTER ANY ASPECT OF THE GAME, MUCH LESS THE ABILITY TO USE POCKET SAND ON OUR FOES OR DIMINISH IT'S ABILITY. I, FRANKLY, WILL ANGRILY TYPE A STAFF-WIDE COMPLAINT AND SPAM THE INBOX AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE UNTIL MY OPINION BECOMES FACT HOW DARE YOU CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE GAME
REEE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Reiloth]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

lol

edit: I've been trying to think of a way to expand this reply as obviously it's not very helpful. But I'm coming up with nothing. So, I'm sorry. I disagree with everything you say here and elsewhere in the thread though. But it's such a fundamental disagreement that I'm not sure there's any room for debate or discussion. I think this is the best comment to reply directly to because it has the right mix of hyperbolic condemnation and extreme conclusions to sum up my being nonplussed.

Yeah, I saw this comment by Lizzie and didn't even know how to respond. I think the new changes to subguilds are great, i'd just like to see a mirror of the extended subguild's transparency with the Guilds, but it seems that was already announced with the main guild changes back in April, so i'll just be patient!

I don't find the splits terribly bothersome. The only thing I can imagine being meta is an employer wanting to hire a specific 'type' of Magicker, but I can see that having IC justification. You would want to hire a Viv that can Poison not Heal, if you want to use them to take out someone on the sly. You would want to hire a Viv that can Heal, not Poison, if you had a reason to keep one around to fix your friends up (in the case of say a Silt Skimmer crew). But for an employer to guild sniff that intensely for reasons entirely OOC is poor form on the employer's part, not the magicker.

I don't think Magick needs to be 'removed from the game' over this, that's a very silly Trump 'make Armageddon great again' kind of argument. We don't live in a world of extremes, and these subguild changes have actually made Magickers normal people for once.

[Reiloth]

not a fan of transparency so no. everyone loves a good mystery.

This is definitely true, to a point. In my day (adopts old man sticky pickle voice) we didn't even have (apprentice) or (master) modifiers, and it was a total mystery how good you were at something. Back then, the 'old guard' said how you need to figure out how good you are by trial and error...Well. I disagreed with them then, and was pleased to see that change.

I have to say knowing what skills you are going to have really helps you tailor a PC and not mistakenly pick something that doesn't fit the concept. I don't think all 'branches' of the basic skills for a Guild need to be spelled out for Players. I do think that the basic skills and what levels they can achieve, should.

[Dunetrade55]

Sorry, please don't be too hard on Lizzie. Sometimes her communication can come off as something other than her intentions, as tends to happen when details aren't fully explained for the sake of brevity. I think it's safe to say that some are very fond of the old magick system and miss full elementalists. I, too, feel deprived of ever playing certain classes I'd always wanted to explore. Drovians being gone is kind of a mixed blessing, as their spying potential, while situational, was OP. Only reason I ever spec-apped a rogue Drovian was because I wanted to spy on people mudsexing and explore the gameworld in relative safety... but I can get behind their removal, hopefully for a re-introduction with a heavy nerfing. What hits me as a REAL sin is the removal of Nilazi, which, well, that's kind of situationally OP as well, but Arm wasn't ever really too concerned with balance, to my understanding.

[Reiloth]

Sorry, please don't be too hard on Lizzie. Sometimes her communication can come off as something other than her intentions, as tends to happen when details aren't fully explained for the sake of brevity. I think it's safe to say that some are very fond of the old magick system and miss full elementalists. I, too, feel deprived of ever playing certain classes I'd always wanted to explore. Drovians being gone is kind of a mixed blessing, as their spying potential, while situational, was OP. Only reason I ever spec-apped a rogue Drovian was because I wanted to spy on people mudsexing and explore the gameworld in relative safety... but I can get behind their removal, hopefully for a re-introduction with a heavy nerfing. What hits me as a REAL sin is the removal of Nilazi, which, well, that's kind of situationally OP as well, but Arm wasn't ever really too concerned with balance, to my understanding.

I mean, they've been shuffled around from my understanding. I'd love a Mage hunter nilazi  sub-guild.

[Case]

There are some weird knock on effects, like scan now being much more prevalent so sneak/hide being worse. I think I'd prefer full elems with mini main guilds instead of the reverse, cause magick is cool and shit. Having everybody be from a limited subset of main guilds is a little bland.

[Molten Heart]

.

[evilcabbage]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

[Majikal]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

That does sound pretty cool.

Ranger-lite + full magick guild and so on.

[Feco]

There are some weird knock on effects, like scan now being much more prevalent so sneak/hide being worse. I think I'd prefer full elems with mini main guilds instead of the reverse, cause magick is cool and shit. Having everybody be from a limited subset of main guilds is a little bland.

Both main guild elementalists and sub-guild elementalists would be cool.

I haven't played a sub-guild elementalist yet, but I agree.  I'd prefer the options.

I am a bit bummed about Nilazi.  They were really frightening -- not only code wise, but as flavor.  I also feel like Drovians (with some of their spells dropped) would have made the most interesting sub-guilds, so it's curious to me they didn't make the cut.

[Lizzie]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

That does sound pretty cool.

Ranger-lite + full magick guild and so on.

We used to have this. It was called: whiran(rukkian, vivaduan, etc)/scavenger

[Majikal]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

That does sound pretty cool.

Ranger-lite + full magick guild and so on.

We used to have this. It was called: whiran(rukkian, vivaduan, etc)/scavenger

Damnit Lizzie, I thought if I worded it different we might get it back. 

[SuchDragonWow]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

lol

edit: I've been trying to think of a way to expand this reply as obviously it's not very helpful. But I'm coming up with nothing. So, I'm sorry. I disagree with everything you say here and elsewhere in the thread though. But it's such a fundamental disagreement that I'm not sure there's any room for debate or discussion. I think this is the best comment to reply directly to because it has the right mix of hyperbolic condemnation and extreme conclusions to sum up my being nonplussed.

Greetings, Zarathustra!  Your account had been banned for [one week] for [trolling players].  Thanks!

[little chicken woman]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Lol, I played for like five years before my first karma, maybe six or seven.

I remember being magick guild sniffed for absolutely no reason once. I assumed that the way subguilds became is IC info that can be found out, but it might have just been guild sniffing. I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know more about magick, just find other witches and chat them up, you know? Sometimes they'll spill beans just for the sake of conversing with someone who isn't ordering them around or telling them not to shrivel their privates.

I would -love- magick guilds coming back along with subguilds staying, for higher karma of course. Perhaps if you choose a magick main guild, you could choose a regular subguild, except that the subguild would never branch. So you could never have a whiran or a krathi with the Summon Chuck Norris weave. So maybe a vivaduan/ruk creation aspect could be four karma, or something, and have access to both temples.

[Lizzie]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Lol, I played for like five years before my first karma, maybe six or seven.

I remember being magick guild sniffed for absolutely no reason once. I assumed that the way subguilds became is IC info that can be found out, but it might have just been guild sniffing. I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know more about magick, just find other witches and chat them up, you know? Sometimes they'll spill beans just for the sake of conversing with someone who isn't ordering them around or telling them not to shrivel their privates.

I would -love- magick guilds coming back along with subguilds staying, for higher karma of course. Perhaps if you choose a magick main guild, you could choose a regular subguild, except that the subguild would never branch. So you could never have a whiran or a krathi with the Summon Chuck Norris weave. So maybe a vivaduan/ruk creation aspect could be four karma, or something, and have access to both temples.

Mixing elements in the same PC is something other than elemental magick. Even if magick guilds and subguilds existed at the same time, I don't think it'd be good to allow players to pick both in the same PC. If you pick a magick guild, then your subguild should have to be mundane. And vice versa.

[evilcabbage]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Lol, I played for like five years before my first karma, maybe six or seven.

I remember being magick guild sniffed for absolutely no reason once. I assumed that the way subguilds became is IC info that can be found out, but it might have just been guild sniffing. I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know more about magick, just find other witches and chat them up, you know? Sometimes they'll spill beans just for the sake of conversing with someone who isn't ordering them around or telling them not to shrivel their privates.

I would -love- magick guilds coming back along with subguilds staying, for higher karma of course. Perhaps if you choose a magick main guild, you could choose a regular subguild, except that the subguild would never branch. So you could never have a whiran or a krathi with the Summon Chuck Norris weave. So maybe a vivaduan/ruk creation aspect could be four karma, or something, and have access to both temples.

Mixing elements in the same PC is something other than elemental magick. Even if magick guilds and subguilds existed at the same time, I don't think it'd be good to allow players to pick both in the same PC. If you pick a magick guild, then your subguild should have to be mundane. And vice versa.

mixing elements would fall into the realm of sorcery in my opinion and would be considered grounds for immediate execution.

nothing natural causes a fire mage to be able to summon steamrollers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWcB7EX6kXA

[Hauwke]

One thing, that does come across as odd, is why make it so that a whiran -cant- cast fly rather than just make it severely limited. I mean explain it away as being the gickers specialty. Eg flight whiran is the only whiran who gets flight above the first or second words of power maybe. They can still do it, just not very well.

[Molten Heart]

.

[little chicken woman]

One thing, that does come across as odd, is why make it so that a whiran -cant- cast fly rather than just make it severely limited. I mean explain it away as being the gickers specialty. Eg flight whiran is the only whiran who gets flight above the first or second words of power maybe. They can still do it, just not very well.

I like this.

What I hated about being a main guild witch was the expectation and reality of the fact that you would inevitably become a top expert in stoneskin, or flying, or throwing fireballs. So would literally EVERYONE in your temple who spent enough time practicing. I want there to be Krillins and Gokus and everyone in between. I wish there was some logical way to do this, NOT random, and be able to pick it at chargen. Something tells me there'd have to be a plot about it behind closed doors, but I think it would be worth the work.

A theoretical scenario:

1. main guild witch, and witch subguild. You get mon in everything and/or you get additional cantrips, making gems practically fall into your hands while grebbing, or something.
2. main guild witch, mundane subguild. Less cantrips, less power, you still have access to everything.
3. Half main guild witch, witch subguild. Less power, still quite significant.
4. Half main guild witch, mundane subguild. This is where suckage starts to leave its shadow, but you can be a disgustingly rich tailor now.
5. Mundane main guild, witch subguild. What we have now.
6. Mundane everything--- good job, you didn't lose the universe's worst lottery.