Guild Transparency

[Reiloth]

What do you guys think about having blurbs about Guilds akin to the Extended Subguilds?

"They get such and such up to the level of master, and such and such to the level of Jman", etc.

Also, while I like splitting up the spell trees for each of the magick subguilds, it's sort of difficult to discern which gets what, if you are trying to match it up to a concept. Would this be best left to inquiring with Staff about? Or would it be OK to be a little more in depth as to like, which Whiran Subguild gets Invisibility or Fly(do all of them?) etc.

[BadSkeelz]

I wouldn't mind it for Mundane guilds. I think keeping magick, psionics and the like mysterious and behind a curtain is good policy. If you really have questions, file a report asking for claraification.

Didn't we talk about this a couple of months ago, during the first fervor over impending Guild changes?

[Reiloth]

I wouldn't mind it for Mundane guilds. I think keeping magick, psionics and the like mysterious and behind a curtain is good policy. If you really have questions, file a report asking for claraification.

Didn't we talk about this a couple of months ago, during the first fervor over impending Guild changes?

I can't keep track in the unending Samsaric Cycle of the GDB. Searching is also so passe.

[Lizzie]

I think splitting up the elements just encourages subguild-sniffing. It used to be - if you needed healers and you were okay with hiring mages (officially or otherwise) you'd be looking for a vivaduan. Now, you have to find out which TYPE of vivaduan they are. It's become just so ridiculously meta. I didn't like the idea of it when the change was first implemented and I dislike it even more now that people have had a chance to play/interact with the subguilds.

In short, transparency will certainly make it easier for the players of employers of mages to hire the "right" mage for the job. But it'll be an OOC device, encouraging meta-gaming even more than we're already stuck with now. And so - for me it'll just make what's already bad, more bad. And therefore it doesn't matter at all.

[Reiloth]

I think splitting up the elements just encourages subguild-sniffing. It used to be - if you needed healers and you were okay with hiring mages (officially or otherwise) you'd be looking for a vivaduan. Now, you have to find out which TYPE of vivaduan they are. It's become just so ridiculously meta. I didn't like the idea of it when the change was first implemented and I dislike it even more now that people have had a chance to play/interact with the subguilds.

In short, transparency will certainly make it easier for the players of employers of mages to hire the "right" mage for the job. But it'll be an OOC device, encouraging meta-gaming even more than we're already stuck with now. And so - for me it'll just make what's already bad, more bad. And therefore it doesn't matter at all.

Yeah, I didn't really think of all that, and that really sucks.

'So just exactly what kind of Whiran ARE you, Mr. Bond? Can you Fly?'

'Err, no.'

'Can you...Throw about little tempestuous ditties?'

'Eerrrr...Kinda.'

'Well, can you...What CAN you do?'

'I like wind. It's my friend.'

[BadSkeelz]

Considering that the pre-subguild conversations with mages usually went along the line of "Have you branched X yet?" I don't see it being that different. People just don't get the answer they want as much, which honestly just amuses me.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I like the idea. I don't think it would ruin any aspect of RP and frankly it just allows people who don't already know what branches into which to not be disappointed when they choose a guild that tramples over their sub guild at a certain point or just doesn't match what they had hoped to create due to vague descriptions.

I'm not sure if the magical sub guilds will ever get anymore transparent though.

[Lizzie]

Considering that the pre-subguild conversations with mages usually went along the line of "Have you branched X yet?" I don't see it being that different. People just don't get the answer they want as much, which honestly just amuses me.

Combining all the mage characters I've ever played on Armageddon, I think I've had that question (or similar) asked of my PC's maybe two or three times total. But knowing that a specific path of magick *can't* branch a spell is no different than knowing that it *can* branch a spell, if you're using the info as a *player* to determine how your character is going to interact with the mage.

Knowing that there are no more Elkrosians or Drovians, therefore this or that spell or effect _must_ be the result of a sorcerer, is JUST as meta as knowing that your Vivaduan won't ever know how to heal because he's picked the "q" path or that Joe Rukkian won't ever be able to make a permanent weapon because he's chosen the "z" path. It's more meta-gamey to me, than someone looking for a Krathi because everyone knows Krathis can do all things fiery. Now, with the subguilds instead of main guilds, there are 5 times the number of possible meta-gaming experiences you can choose from, in each element. It's MORE meta now than it was before, because you KNOW damned well that if Joe Rukkian can make a weapon, it means he will never be able to do the rumble-fish spell.

[Molten Heart]

.

[evilcabbage]

people bitched about mages being too easy to sniff, so they became harder to sniff, now we're bitching that we can sniff out specific subguilds.

i mean jesus fucking christ, we're never happy as a playerbase.

i like the changes.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Snip

Weren't the excluded magick-guild spells supposed to be shuffled into the appropriate subguilds. Did that really translate into a huge chunk getting thrown into sorcerers? Or am I reading that incorrectly?

[Lizzie]

Snip

Weren't the excluded magick-guild spells supposed to be shuffled into the appropriate subguilds. Did that really translate into a huge chunk getting thrown into sorcerers? Or am I reading that incorrectly?

The point - is that you the player might or might know this. But your character probably doesn't. Unless your character -has- any of these spells, it's my guess that your character has no idea which guilds come with which spells, which ones will branch what, and more importantly, which ones will -not- branch what. Especially since the shift. In fact, I'd go so far as to assume that if your character is dealing with a vivaduan, your character has no way of knowing that the vivaduan will -never- be capable of branching "inflict wetdream disease," because historically, all vivaduans have been capable of eventually branching this spell and there is nothing about any of the NPC gemmers to indicate otherwise.

[Lizzie]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

I understand your point and agree with your conclusions.

As it stands now, lacking guild transparency or the ability to branch all of the spells in ones element is like playing a Salarri merchant, that is an armorcrafter, and getting wayed five times a day because someone wants you to whip up a sweet axe. It gums up playability, so to speak, and is kind of emersion breaking to say "Well yeah, but I'm not THAT kind of Viv. Sorry, can't fill your tuns". The only difference is that I may be a master elementalist, water wielder extraordinaire, and yet the excuse isn't "I never learned how, bud", but "I just can't because my element only teaches some people that sort of thing". That's just my honest opinion, however.

[Lizzie]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

I understand your point and agree with your conclusions.

As it stands now, lacking guild transparency or the ability to branch all of the spells in ones element is like playing a Salarri merchant, that is an armorcrafter, and getting wayed five times a day because someone wants you to whip up a sweet axe. It gums up playability, so to speak, and is kind of emersion breaking to say "Well yeah, but I'm not THAT kind of Viv. Sorry, can't fill your tuns". That's just my honest opinion, however.

Yup, and for me it's just as immersion breaking for someone to just automatically know that I'm not "that" kind of Viv, just because they saw me cast "x" spell and not "y" spell. Just the whole split thing - ugh. Y'all shouldn't have gotten me started. I'll be going on with this for another couple of weeks.

[Dunetrade55]

On guild skills and caps being revealed in the helpfiles, along with branchable skills and caps, ALL for it for mundanes, never, EVER understood the veil of secrecy there. For the magicker subguilds? Eh, not so much, magick and mystery and shit..

However, for the elementalist subguilds, I feel there should be a few staple spells that each path either gets or starts with, like says vivs, for example, all vivs should eventually have the capacity to heal people or cure poison, all whirans should eventually be able to fly... but I don't want to go into too much detail on what I think they should be able to do, lest I reveal too much.

And the more I think about it, the more happy I am new Drovians will not be a thing. At least a psionicist HAS to keep their identity utterly hidden at all times.

[valeria]

I would be fine with this for mundane guilds only.

[Dresan]

My understanding is that this is going to happen once the Guild changes go in. No point in writing them now, only to have to re-write them again sometime soon(ish...maybe) once changes are made.


There is some mystery to the magickal sub-guilds but I think they give you a pretty good idea of what each is about and should remain that way.


While I agree that, finding the right type of mage to work with is alot harder then it used to be...thats not a bad thing and should be part of the risk of working with any magicker. Who knows what they could do! Vivudian shouldn't be thought of as just 'healers'. This makes the ones that can heal more special if you ask me.

[gotdamnmiracle]

My understanding is that this is going to happen once the Guild changes go in. No point in writing them now, only to have to re-write them again sometime soon(ish...maybe) once changes are made.


There is some mystery to the magickal sub-guilds but I think they give you a pretty good idea of what each is about and should remain that way.


While I agree that, finding the right type of mage to work with is alot harder then it used to be...thats not a bad thing and should be part of the risk of working with any magicker. Who knows what they could do! Vivudian shouldn't be thought of as just 'healers'. This makes the ones that can heal more special if you ask me.

I don't know about that. Possibly this is the result of having only an amateurish understanding of magickal PCs, but if they handed over the whole spell tree, or even just the whole thing as an eventuality I'd be fine. Yes I understand that there would be some ungodly powerful PCs, but at the same time aren't they already? Giving that combat gemmer some utility spells wouldn't make them OP, I don't think. Not to mention the jarring nature of the fracture, which is where I think the idea that "Viv's ARE healers" comes from. I'm not saying that I'm correct, but that it is hard to recognize after so much history telling people otherwise.

If each split in the element was just a starting location for the PC and they could eventually get every bit of it, I'd be A okay. Like they are all reading from the same dictionary, but some start on G and others on K. Eventually if they keep reading, they'll learn everything. If getting super OP super quick is an issue, just make training for combat spells different. OR all spells. That way you could eventually learn all the bells and whistles, but only the true Merlins would know how to do it, just like advanced weapon skills.

Plus then you wouldn't have this weird white rhino thing going on with the elementalists. I almost guarantee a player is going to keep the very last drovian running around on life support, terrified to leave the walls, until he dies of old age or shitmugging. But that is beyond prevention.

That 2 karma hurdle is a big gap. That's a year! Granted not all of that needs to be constant play, but still, I think no one after a year is bumbling around or trying to go against the RP grain. And you could say, "But what about special apping?", and I would retort by saying that they are under review. Staff can always shoot down a special app.

And I don't really understand the full extent of the guild changes, so maybe I'm just blowing hot air.

[Hauwke]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Anyway, on topic.

I would like to see the guild changes done and the helpfiles made clear as day, listing off exactly what you get and to what degree.

[RogueGunslinger]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

You got 1 karma 2 years before you started playing?

[evilcabbage]

he's saying some people get 2 karma in 1 year, and inversely, he got 1 karma in 2 years.

[RogueGunslinger]

Was making a joke at my own expense, cabbage.  It's less funny when taken at face value.

[evilcabbage]

your mortal jokes are terrible.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes but if not for death they would savor life's pleasures no more.

[Dakota]

not a fan of transparency so no. everyone loves a good mystery.

[Hauwke]

Well Rgs. You have out rgs'd yourself again. Kudos for effort!

[Rathustra]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

lol

edit: I've been trying to think of a way to expand this reply as obviously it's not very helpful. But I'm coming up with nothing. So, I'm sorry. I disagree with everything you say here and elsewhere in the thread though. But it's such a fundamental disagreement that I'm not sure there's any room for debate or discussion. I think this is the best comment to reply directly to because it has the right mix of hyperbolic condemnation and extreme conclusions to sum up my being nonplussed.

[Hauwke]

Stuff

To be fair Rath, I too dislike the fact it was changed. I would have loved to see full elemenalists left in, However I do think the split has been good for the game from what I have seen.

People with their first karma, probably from a long lived PC who have never dealt with magic much?
They can now try out a touched guild and give magick a very small tap on its shoulder, tiny tap mini thing that it is, but still a tap.

And guess what everyone? If you can gain an understanding of magick from that it leads to you being able to play a 'proper' magicker with real power.

Sure your rukkian cant cast pocketsand anymore but he can ranger it up instead and he doesnt need pocketsand because he has maxxxed archery etc.


Tl;dr?
Stuff I both like and dislike the change.

[Yam]

If they removed pocketsand from Rukkians I fucking quit.

[Rathustra]

If they removed pocketsand from Rukkians I fucking quit.

We put it into five of the eight 'sub-facets' of the elemental demi-spheres: ruk-empower-torque-particulate, ruk-creation-silicates-natural, ruk-protection-ineffective-particulate.

Though you can only cast them if your relationship to the sand is neutral or better and while in a room currently under the gaze of Tywod, eternal guardian and celestial king of shores and open deserts.

Also we nerfed the damage to 3+5di per level.

[AdamBlue]

If they removed pocketsand from Rukkians I fucking quit.

We put it into five of the eight 'sub-facets' of the elemental demi-spheres: ruk-empower-torque-particulate, ruk-creation-silicates-natural, ruk-protection-ineffective-particulate.

Though you can only cast them if your relationship to the sand is neutral or better and while in a room currently under the gaze of Tywod, eternal guardian and celestial king of shores and open deserts.

Also we nerfed the damage to 3+5di per level.

RATH THIS IS THE FUCKING LAST STRAW, THE ONE THAT BROKE THE INIX'S BACK I SWEAR TO GOD HOW DARE YOU ALTER ANY ASPECT OF THE GAME, MUCH LESS THE ABILITY TO USE POCKET SAND ON OUR FOES OR DIMINISH IT'S ABILITY. I, FRANKLY, WILL ANGRILY TYPE A STAFF-WIDE COMPLAINT AND SPAM THE INBOX AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE UNTIL MY OPINION BECOMES FACT HOW DARE YOU CHANGE ANYTHING IN THE GAME
REEE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Reiloth]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

lol

edit: I've been trying to think of a way to expand this reply as obviously it's not very helpful. But I'm coming up with nothing. So, I'm sorry. I disagree with everything you say here and elsewhere in the thread though. But it's such a fundamental disagreement that I'm not sure there's any room for debate or discussion. I think this is the best comment to reply directly to because it has the right mix of hyperbolic condemnation and extreme conclusions to sum up my being nonplussed.

Yeah, I saw this comment by Lizzie and didn't even know how to respond. I think the new changes to subguilds are great, i'd just like to see a mirror of the extended subguild's transparency with the Guilds, but it seems that was already announced with the main guild changes back in April, so i'll just be patient!

I don't find the splits terribly bothersome. The only thing I can imagine being meta is an employer wanting to hire a specific 'type' of Magicker, but I can see that having IC justification. You would want to hire a Viv that can Poison not Heal, if you want to use them to take out someone on the sly. You would want to hire a Viv that can Heal, not Poison, if you had a reason to keep one around to fix your friends up (in the case of say a Silt Skimmer crew). But for an employer to guild sniff that intensely for reasons entirely OOC is poor form on the employer's part, not the magicker.

I don't think Magick needs to be 'removed from the game' over this, that's a very silly Trump 'make Armageddon great again' kind of argument. We don't live in a world of extremes, and these subguild changes have actually made Magickers normal people for once.

[Reiloth]

not a fan of transparency so no. everyone loves a good mystery.

This is definitely true, to a point. In my day (adopts old man sticky pickle voice) we didn't even have (apprentice) or (master) modifiers, and it was a total mystery how good you were at something. Back then, the 'old guard' said how you need to figure out how good you are by trial and error...Well. I disagreed with them then, and was pleased to see that change.

I have to say knowing what skills you are going to have really helps you tailor a PC and not mistakenly pick something that doesn't fit the concept. I don't think all 'branches' of the basic skills for a Guild need to be spelled out for Players. I do think that the basic skills and what levels they can achieve, should.

[Dunetrade55]

Sorry, please don't be too hard on Lizzie. Sometimes her communication can come off as something other than her intentions, as tends to happen when details aren't fully explained for the sake of brevity. I think it's safe to say that some are very fond of the old magick system and miss full elementalists. I, too, feel deprived of ever playing certain classes I'd always wanted to explore. Drovians being gone is kind of a mixed blessing, as their spying potential, while situational, was OP. Only reason I ever spec-apped a rogue Drovian was because I wanted to spy on people mudsexing and explore the gameworld in relative safety... but I can get behind their removal, hopefully for a re-introduction with a heavy nerfing. What hits me as a REAL sin is the removal of Nilazi, which, well, that's kind of situationally OP as well, but Arm wasn't ever really too concerned with balance, to my understanding.

[Reiloth]

Sorry, please don't be too hard on Lizzie. Sometimes her communication can come off as something other than her intentions, as tends to happen when details aren't fully explained for the sake of brevity. I think it's safe to say that some are very fond of the old magick system and miss full elementalists. I, too, feel deprived of ever playing certain classes I'd always wanted to explore. Drovians being gone is kind of a mixed blessing, as their spying potential, while situational, was OP. Only reason I ever spec-apped a rogue Drovian was because I wanted to spy on people mudsexing and explore the gameworld in relative safety... but I can get behind their removal, hopefully for a re-introduction with a heavy nerfing. What hits me as a REAL sin is the removal of Nilazi, which, well, that's kind of situationally OP as well, but Arm wasn't ever really too concerned with balance, to my understanding.

I mean, they've been shuffled around from my understanding. I'd love a Mage hunter nilazi  sub-guild.

[Case]

There are some weird knock on effects, like scan now being much more prevalent so sneak/hide being worse. I think I'd prefer full elems with mini main guilds instead of the reverse, cause magick is cool and shit. Having everybody be from a limited subset of main guilds is a little bland.

[Molten Heart]

.

[evilcabbage]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

[Majikal]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

That does sound pretty cool.

Ranger-lite + full magick guild and so on.

[Feco]

There are some weird knock on effects, like scan now being much more prevalent so sneak/hide being worse. I think I'd prefer full elems with mini main guilds instead of the reverse, cause magick is cool and shit. Having everybody be from a limited subset of main guilds is a little bland.

Both main guild elementalists and sub-guild elementalists would be cool.

I haven't played a sub-guild elementalist yet, but I agree.  I'd prefer the options.

I am a bit bummed about Nilazi.  They were really frightening -- not only code wise, but as flavor.  I also feel like Drovians (with some of their spells dropped) would have made the most interesting sub-guilds, so it's curious to me they didn't make the cut.

[Lizzie]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

That does sound pretty cool.

Ranger-lite + full magick guild and so on.

We used to have this. It was called: whiran(rukkian, vivaduan, etc)/scavenger

[Majikal]

mini-main guilds with full-elementalist options, with the option to have a subguild element.

so many fucking options.

that would be beautiful.

That does sound pretty cool.

Ranger-lite + full magick guild and so on.

We used to have this. It was called: whiran(rukkian, vivaduan, etc)/scavenger

Damnit Lizzie, I thought if I worded it different we might get it back. 

[SuchDragonWow]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

lol

edit: I've been trying to think of a way to expand this reply as obviously it's not very helpful. But I'm coming up with nothing. So, I'm sorry. I disagree with everything you say here and elsewhere in the thread though. But it's such a fundamental disagreement that I'm not sure there's any room for debate or discussion. I think this is the best comment to reply directly to because it has the right mix of hyperbolic condemnation and extreme conclusions to sum up my being nonplussed.

Greetings, Zarathustra!  Your account had been banned for [one week] for [trolling players].  Thanks!

[little chicken woman]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Lol, I played for like five years before my first karma, maybe six or seven.

I remember being magick guild sniffed for absolutely no reason once. I assumed that the way subguilds became is IC info that can be found out, but it might have just been guild sniffing. I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know more about magick, just find other witches and chat them up, you know? Sometimes they'll spill beans just for the sake of conversing with someone who isn't ordering them around or telling them not to shrivel their privates.

I would -love- magick guilds coming back along with subguilds staying, for higher karma of course. Perhaps if you choose a magick main guild, you could choose a regular subguild, except that the subguild would never branch. So you could never have a whiran or a krathi with the Summon Chuck Norris weave. So maybe a vivaduan/ruk creation aspect could be four karma, or something, and have access to both temples.

[Lizzie]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Lol, I played for like five years before my first karma, maybe six or seven.

I remember being magick guild sniffed for absolutely no reason once. I assumed that the way subguilds became is IC info that can be found out, but it might have just been guild sniffing. I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know more about magick, just find other witches and chat them up, you know? Sometimes they'll spill beans just for the sake of conversing with someone who isn't ordering them around or telling them not to shrivel their privates.

I would -love- magick guilds coming back along with subguilds staying, for higher karma of course. Perhaps if you choose a magick main guild, you could choose a regular subguild, except that the subguild would never branch. So you could never have a whiran or a krathi with the Summon Chuck Norris weave. So maybe a vivaduan/ruk creation aspect could be four karma, or something, and have access to both temples.

Mixing elements in the same PC is something other than elemental magick. Even if magick guilds and subguilds existed at the same time, I don't think it'd be good to allow players to pick both in the same PC. If you pick a magick guild, then your subguild should have to be mundane. And vice versa.

[evilcabbage]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Lol, I played for like five years before my first karma, maybe six or seven.

I remember being magick guild sniffed for absolutely no reason once. I assumed that the way subguilds became is IC info that can be found out, but it might have just been guild sniffing. I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

If you want to know more about magick, just find other witches and chat them up, you know? Sometimes they'll spill beans just for the sake of conversing with someone who isn't ordering them around or telling them not to shrivel their privates.

I would -love- magick guilds coming back along with subguilds staying, for higher karma of course. Perhaps if you choose a magick main guild, you could choose a regular subguild, except that the subguild would never branch. So you could never have a whiran or a krathi with the Summon Chuck Norris weave. So maybe a vivaduan/ruk creation aspect could be four karma, or something, and have access to both temples.

Mixing elements in the same PC is something other than elemental magick. Even if magick guilds and subguilds existed at the same time, I don't think it'd be good to allow players to pick both in the same PC. If you pick a magick guild, then your subguild should have to be mundane. And vice versa.

mixing elements would fall into the realm of sorcery in my opinion and would be considered grounds for immediate execution.

nothing natural causes a fire mage to be able to summon steamrollers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWcB7EX6kXA

[Hauwke]

One thing, that does come across as odd, is why make it so that a whiran -cant- cast fly rather than just make it severely limited. I mean explain it away as being the gickers specialty. Eg flight whiran is the only whiran who gets flight above the first or second words of power maybe. They can still do it, just not very well.

[Molten Heart]

.

[little chicken woman]

One thing, that does come across as odd, is why make it so that a whiran -cant- cast fly rather than just make it severely limited. I mean explain it away as being the gickers specialty. Eg flight whiran is the only whiran who gets flight above the first or second words of power maybe. They can still do it, just not very well.

I like this.

What I hated about being a main guild witch was the expectation and reality of the fact that you would inevitably become a top expert in stoneskin, or flying, or throwing fireballs. So would literally EVERYONE in your temple who spent enough time practicing. I want there to be Krillins and Gokus and everyone in between. I wish there was some logical way to do this, NOT random, and be able to pick it at chargen. Something tells me there'd have to be a plot about it behind closed doors, but I think it would be worth the work.

A theoretical scenario:

1. main guild witch, and witch subguild. You get mon in everything and/or you get additional cantrips, making gems practically fall into your hands while grebbing, or something.
2. main guild witch, mundane subguild. Less cantrips, less power, you still have access to everything.
3. Half main guild witch, witch subguild. Less power, still quite significant.
4. Half main guild witch, mundane subguild. This is where suckage starts to leave its shadow, but you can be a disgustingly rich tailor now.
5. Mundane main guild, witch subguild. What we have now.
6. Mundane everything--- good job, you didn't lose the universe's worst lottery.

[evilcabbage]

i believe you should take that first one out.

main guild is the full power of a mage - the goku, so to speak.

and once you take a main guild mage, you cannot take a subguild mage.

i like it how it is now, but the main guilds should have been left in to give people an option.

[Hauwke]

I wouldnt mind if it wasnt even given as full elems. More like:

Subguild, movement whirran = all movement spells to Mon and if it ever is allowed further, but every other whiran spell is left at wek or one above, (forget the next one but you get the idea)

So you can still be uber powerful warrior with movement magicks, but you also get your old 'jack of all things whiran' without it being ridiculous and entirely op.

However I still think Magick does need a little more... Raw power, not so much damage but raw power in some way. Something scary but not inherently lethal, got no ideas on what it could be but still would be nice.