Guild Transparency

[Reiloth]

What do you guys think about having blurbs about Guilds akin to the Extended Subguilds?

"They get such and such up to the level of master, and such and such to the level of Jman", etc.

Also, while I like splitting up the spell trees for each of the magick subguilds, it's sort of difficult to discern which gets what, if you are trying to match it up to a concept. Would this be best left to inquiring with Staff about? Or would it be OK to be a little more in depth as to like, which Whiran Subguild gets Invisibility or Fly(do all of them?) etc.

[BadSkeelz]

I wouldn't mind it for Mundane guilds. I think keeping magick, psionics and the like mysterious and behind a curtain is good policy. If you really have questions, file a report asking for claraification.

Didn't we talk about this a couple of months ago, during the first fervor over impending Guild changes?

[Reiloth]

I wouldn't mind it for Mundane guilds. I think keeping magick, psionics and the like mysterious and behind a curtain is good policy. If you really have questions, file a report asking for claraification.

Didn't we talk about this a couple of months ago, during the first fervor over impending Guild changes?

I can't keep track in the unending Samsaric Cycle of the GDB. Searching is also so passe.

[Lizzie]

I think splitting up the elements just encourages subguild-sniffing. It used to be - if you needed healers and you were okay with hiring mages (officially or otherwise) you'd be looking for a vivaduan. Now, you have to find out which TYPE of vivaduan they are. It's become just so ridiculously meta. I didn't like the idea of it when the change was first implemented and I dislike it even more now that people have had a chance to play/interact with the subguilds.

In short, transparency will certainly make it easier for the players of employers of mages to hire the "right" mage for the job. But it'll be an OOC device, encouraging meta-gaming even more than we're already stuck with now. And so - for me it'll just make what's already bad, more bad. And therefore it doesn't matter at all.

[Reiloth]

I think splitting up the elements just encourages subguild-sniffing. It used to be - if you needed healers and you were okay with hiring mages (officially or otherwise) you'd be looking for a vivaduan. Now, you have to find out which TYPE of vivaduan they are. It's become just so ridiculously meta. I didn't like the idea of it when the change was first implemented and I dislike it even more now that people have had a chance to play/interact with the subguilds.

In short, transparency will certainly make it easier for the players of employers of mages to hire the "right" mage for the job. But it'll be an OOC device, encouraging meta-gaming even more than we're already stuck with now. And so - for me it'll just make what's already bad, more bad. And therefore it doesn't matter at all.

Yeah, I didn't really think of all that, and that really sucks.

'So just exactly what kind of Whiran ARE you, Mr. Bond? Can you Fly?'

'Err, no.'

'Can you...Throw about little tempestuous ditties?'

'Eerrrr...Kinda.'

'Well, can you...What CAN you do?'

'I like wind. It's my friend.'

[BadSkeelz]

Considering that the pre-subguild conversations with mages usually went along the line of "Have you branched X yet?" I don't see it being that different. People just don't get the answer they want as much, which honestly just amuses me.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I like the idea. I don't think it would ruin any aspect of RP and frankly it just allows people who don't already know what branches into which to not be disappointed when they choose a guild that tramples over their sub guild at a certain point or just doesn't match what they had hoped to create due to vague descriptions.

I'm not sure if the magical sub guilds will ever get anymore transparent though.

[Lizzie]

Considering that the pre-subguild conversations with mages usually went along the line of "Have you branched X yet?" I don't see it being that different. People just don't get the answer they want as much, which honestly just amuses me.

Combining all the mage characters I've ever played on Armageddon, I think I've had that question (or similar) asked of my PC's maybe two or three times total. But knowing that a specific path of magick *can't* branch a spell is no different than knowing that it *can* branch a spell, if you're using the info as a *player* to determine how your character is going to interact with the mage.

Knowing that there are no more Elkrosians or Drovians, therefore this or that spell or effect _must_ be the result of a sorcerer, is JUST as meta as knowing that your Vivaduan won't ever know how to heal because he's picked the "q" path or that Joe Rukkian won't ever be able to make a permanent weapon because he's chosen the "z" path. It's more meta-gamey to me, than someone looking for a Krathi because everyone knows Krathis can do all things fiery. Now, with the subguilds instead of main guilds, there are 5 times the number of possible meta-gaming experiences you can choose from, in each element. It's MORE meta now than it was before, because you KNOW damned well that if Joe Rukkian can make a weapon, it means he will never be able to do the rumble-fish spell.

[Molten Heart]

.

[evilcabbage]

people bitched about mages being too easy to sniff, so they became harder to sniff, now we're bitching that we can sniff out specific subguilds.

i mean jesus fucking christ, we're never happy as a playerbase.

i like the changes.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Snip

Weren't the excluded magick-guild spells supposed to be shuffled into the appropriate subguilds. Did that really translate into a huge chunk getting thrown into sorcerers? Or am I reading that incorrectly?

[Lizzie]

Snip

Weren't the excluded magick-guild spells supposed to be shuffled into the appropriate subguilds. Did that really translate into a huge chunk getting thrown into sorcerers? Or am I reading that incorrectly?

The point - is that you the player might or might know this. But your character probably doesn't. Unless your character -has- any of these spells, it's my guess that your character has no idea which guilds come with which spells, which ones will branch what, and more importantly, which ones will -not- branch what. Especially since the shift. In fact, I'd go so far as to assume that if your character is dealing with a vivaduan, your character has no way of knowing that the vivaduan will -never- be capable of branching "inflict wetdream disease," because historically, all vivaduans have been capable of eventually branching this spell and there is nothing about any of the NPC gemmers to indicate otherwise.

[Lizzie]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

I understand your point and agree with your conclusions.

As it stands now, lacking guild transparency or the ability to branch all of the spells in ones element is like playing a Salarri merchant, that is an armorcrafter, and getting wayed five times a day because someone wants you to whip up a sweet axe. It gums up playability, so to speak, and is kind of emersion breaking to say "Well yeah, but I'm not THAT kind of Viv. Sorry, can't fill your tuns". The only difference is that I may be a master elementalist, water wielder extraordinaire, and yet the excuse isn't "I never learned how, bud", but "I just can't because my element only teaches some people that sort of thing". That's just my honest opinion, however.

[Lizzie]

Basically I"m saying the entire system of split elemental "paths" is insanely convoluted, there's no IC explanation for any of it, and transparency in the help files isn't going to solve that problem. The only thing that will solve it, is to retcon the change, OR to eliminate magicks entirely.

I understand your point and agree with your conclusions.

As it stands now, lacking guild transparency or the ability to branch all of the spells in ones element is like playing a Salarri merchant, that is an armorcrafter, and getting wayed five times a day because someone wants you to whip up a sweet axe. It gums up playability, so to speak, and is kind of emersion breaking to say "Well yeah, but I'm not THAT kind of Viv. Sorry, can't fill your tuns". That's just my honest opinion, however.

Yup, and for me it's just as immersion breaking for someone to just automatically know that I'm not "that" kind of Viv, just because they saw me cast "x" spell and not "y" spell. Just the whole split thing - ugh. Y'all shouldn't have gotten me started. I'll be going on with this for another couple of weeks.

[Dunetrade55]

On guild skills and caps being revealed in the helpfiles, along with branchable skills and caps, ALL for it for mundanes, never, EVER understood the veil of secrecy there. For the magicker subguilds? Eh, not so much, magick and mystery and shit..

However, for the elementalist subguilds, I feel there should be a few staple spells that each path either gets or starts with, like says vivs, for example, all vivs should eventually have the capacity to heal people or cure poison, all whirans should eventually be able to fly... but I don't want to go into too much detail on what I think they should be able to do, lest I reveal too much.

And the more I think about it, the more happy I am new Drovians will not be a thing. At least a psionicist HAS to keep their identity utterly hidden at all times.

[valeria]

I would be fine with this for mundane guilds only.

[Dresan]

My understanding is that this is going to happen once the Guild changes go in. No point in writing them now, only to have to re-write them again sometime soon(ish...maybe) once changes are made.


There is some mystery to the magickal sub-guilds but I think they give you a pretty good idea of what each is about and should remain that way.


While I agree that, finding the right type of mage to work with is alot harder then it used to be...thats not a bad thing and should be part of the risk of working with any magicker. Who knows what they could do! Vivudian shouldn't be thought of as just 'healers'. This makes the ones that can heal more special if you ask me.

[gotdamnmiracle]

My understanding is that this is going to happen once the Guild changes go in. No point in writing them now, only to have to re-write them again sometime soon(ish...maybe) once changes are made.


There is some mystery to the magickal sub-guilds but I think they give you a pretty good idea of what each is about and should remain that way.


While I agree that, finding the right type of mage to work with is alot harder then it used to be...thats not a bad thing and should be part of the risk of working with any magicker. Who knows what they could do! Vivudian shouldn't be thought of as just 'healers'. This makes the ones that can heal more special if you ask me.

I don't know about that. Possibly this is the result of having only an amateurish understanding of magickal PCs, but if they handed over the whole spell tree, or even just the whole thing as an eventuality I'd be fine. Yes I understand that there would be some ungodly powerful PCs, but at the same time aren't they already? Giving that combat gemmer some utility spells wouldn't make them OP, I don't think. Not to mention the jarring nature of the fracture, which is where I think the idea that "Viv's ARE healers" comes from. I'm not saying that I'm correct, but that it is hard to recognize after so much history telling people otherwise.

If each split in the element was just a starting location for the PC and they could eventually get every bit of it, I'd be A okay. Like they are all reading from the same dictionary, but some start on G and others on K. Eventually if they keep reading, they'll learn everything. If getting super OP super quick is an issue, just make training for combat spells different. OR all spells. That way you could eventually learn all the bells and whistles, but only the true Merlins would know how to do it, just like advanced weapon skills.

Plus then you wouldn't have this weird white rhino thing going on with the elementalists. I almost guarantee a player is going to keep the very last drovian running around on life support, terrified to leave the walls, until he dies of old age or shitmugging. But that is beyond prevention.

That 2 karma hurdle is a big gap. That's a year! Granted not all of that needs to be constant play, but still, I think no one after a year is bumbling around or trying to go against the RP grain. And you could say, "But what about special apping?", and I would retort by saying that they are under review. Staff can always shoot down a special app.

And I don't really understand the full extent of the guild changes, so maybe I'm just blowing hot air.

[Hauwke]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

Anyway, on topic.

I would like to see the guild changes done and the helpfiles made clear as day, listing off exactly what you get and to what degree.

[RogueGunslinger]

Not everyone gets to the point of 2 karma after a year, in fact it took me the inverse of 2 years for 1 karma.

You got 1 karma 2 years before you started playing?

[evilcabbage]

he's saying some people get 2 karma in 1 year, and inversely, he got 1 karma in 2 years.

[RogueGunslinger]

Was making a joke at my own expense, cabbage.  It's less funny when taken at face value.

[evilcabbage]

your mortal jokes are terrible.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes but if not for death they would savor life's pleasures no more.