question about equipment use and skills

[Cuusardo]

When using equipment that gives you extra attacks in combat (like clawed gloves or spiked gauntlets), what skill determines whether you hit or miss?

[ashyom]

This info is something you can find out IC.
Ashyom

[Anonymous]

Can and should? Or just can? I can find out things that are in the doco IC too, but I don't have to.

[Carnage]

This info is something you can find out IC.

How do you go around and ask "What skill do these use" while remaining in character?

[mansa]

emote turns over ~spiked in his hands, then glances over towards ~sergeant

tell sergeant (lifting up ~spiked, waving it about beside his head) Hey Boss, Thanks for these gloves, but, what sort of technique should I use, to utilize these spiffy goods?  I don't want to seem like an idiot.

tell sergeant (nodding his head slowly) Oh.  So, I should do -that- now.  Hmm.  Well.  Okay.  I really sucked ass when the lieutenant was trying to show me how to do the 'Berlian' roll.  I'd much rather just stick with the 'Sujaal' switchroo.

[Cuusardo]

Only reason I asked, is because unlike with standard weapons, it won't tell you what type it is when you assess it.   :?

[Anonymous]

I still don't see how you can find out IC.

IC:
You: So how do ya use these again?
Other person: Um, you stick them on your hands and hit people with them.

Thats blindingly obvious. In real life if someone told me I could use boxing, that would be ok, but as far as I know, there isn't a boxing skill? Maybe there is... it would just be helpful to be told what skill they use.

If you can find out about animals by looking in the documentation, why not about weapons? I would think that information regarding animals is far more IC than what skill a weapon employs.

[Anonymous]

I still don't see how you can find out IC.

IC:
You: So how do ya use these again?
Other person: Um, you stick them on your hands and hit people with them.

Thats blindingly obvious. In real life if someone told me I could use boxing, that would be ok, but as far as I know, there isn't a boxing skill? Maybe there is... it would just be helpful to be told what skill they use.

If you can find out about animals by looking in the documentation, why not about weapons? I would think that information regarding animals is far more IC than what skill a weapon employs.

[homes214]

emote plucks ~spiked from the corpse of a blah blah dead pc.
get spiked corpse
emote turns ~spiked over in his hands.
tell corpse These things hurt when you tagged me with them, what skill did you use?


One persons IC options may not be anothers.

[X-D]

Alright, I simply do not see how, on that question Ashyom came up with it being an IC thing.

Not being staff I have not gotten a look at them from that direction, but the gear in question looks to run off a simple script, I doubt this script takes the full combat code into account since it does not hit different areas of the body and such. In my experiance, I'd say they work directly on offense and defense with maybe an agi mod.

Or, it could run on a random num gen and have a "hit" range,  ignoring the combat code and offense and defense and such completly.

But since I cannot find anywhere that even gives an idea on how it works from an official statement, then I doubt if it is possible to find out IC, some things...more then some, take an ooc knowledge to transfer it to ic.

SO, lets say it is the second example, then at least you could ask someone how it works or the skills involved and the person could answer, "Skill? If you get an opening SWING lad, if ya tag em, good, If not, duck, he's probly swingin back"



Probly gonna get yelled at for this post. Oh well.

[Dan]

Your all wrong!

Find out IC!

Telling you -how- to find out IC is going too far. What sort of character would know alot about fighting? Mayby play or ask one of those people in the game, use your imagination on how you ask.  :wink:

[Lazloth]

Regarding mechanics, to "find out IC" would be to stage an extremely contrived scene.

> wish all Could someone animate this weaponsmith please?
> say (knuckling the counter) So Mister Salarr, with this knee brace, if I'm real good at kicking, it's going to make a big difference, eh?

*roll*

A more realistic staff response would've been something like:  "We do not discuss code mechanics [publically].  After you've played for three, four, six? years, you will have a handle on how things work better."

Like Carnage & above have said, IMHO, there is no realistic way to discover this knowledge in-character.  Over the course of a series of characters, you will have some [OOC] game knowledge that will lend an informed background basis.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

The staff reply to this thread serves as a fine example as one of the points which was brought up at the player-staff meeting.

One of the first questions posed by Sanvean at the meeting was:

One of the things that has come up for me recently is OOC information and people talking about their characters. I posted my feelings about it here: http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5062

I'd like to know if people feel these are realistic expectations on the part of the staff or not.

Followed later with the question:

What things are you curious about in regards to the game? What questions would you like staff to answer?

One of the player replies to the posed questions was:

There is a certain amount of IC information which is blatantly obvious to all players as information that shouldn't be spread OOCly. Things like Joe Smith the noble is actually a defiler, or that a steel sword loads up every reboot in the second house with the red door off of Spice Road. Other things aren't so easily defined, and I feel this is a source of confusion amongst the players.

My own personal interest of late lies in Armageddon's combat engine. I've been curious to learn what kind of difference a player can make in combat when he/she really _understands_ how combat works. What's the real difference between fighting with one hand or fighting with two hands on one weapon? If I want to be great at using a whip, how can I get better at it? These are questions that some people would brand as IC information, and stuff that should be learned in game. And yet, documentation exists on the combat code for some features, but not for others. In many ways it seems inconsistent.

How am I (and other players) supposed to know what kind of talk is too IC, and what isn't too IC, when the documentation (and staff governing the GDB) contradict each other on what information should be public knowledge? Helping define all incidents of what is IC and what isn't would benefit a whole lot of players, in my opinion. Helping defining it within the -staff- circle first is definately a must.

Looking at this thread, I think a lot of players can agree that acquiring code information about what influences the success or failure of wrist razors and spiked gloves isn't something that's determinable IC. However, there are other players who disagree, and feel that somehow this information is available within the IC game world. For those of us who feel the information is OOC, some are split into thinking this informatioin is too sensitive for players to have, while others feel that since the documentation goes into detail about some combat code questions, why doesn't it cover other related questions?

Looking at the very end of the quoted player reply to the question at the player-staff meeting, the last paragraph states that a definition amongst the staff about what is IC and not IC is a definate must before the staff can create a definition for the players. To me, that seems like a fairly logical conclusion.

I feel that the biggest confusion about what is IC and isn't IC for players, stems directly from the fact that the staff have yet to define between themselves what is IC info, what is OOC info, and what the sum is of both that players are allowed to know. If indeed this information about wrist razors and spiked gloves is purely IC, then why is the "parry" skill described with such an incredible amount of detail, down to mentioning the code effects about successful parries knocking attackers off-balance? Why do the help files on the "offense" and "defense" statistics go into such depth about how their skill percentages affect your character, and how they operate in concert with other coded skills? These are questions best left for the staff to answer, but I'm concerned that every staff reply will consist of a different opinion. If we're going to receive a variety of staff opinions, which ones do we interpret as the official rules of Armageddon MUD?

This isn't an attempt to take shots at the staff or a rant about why I can't figure out how wrist razors work. It's a point that I think will benefit -everybody-, both player and staff, if the issue is addressed and made more clear for everyone.

[Rindan]

Personally, I don't see the issue.  I do not think they should tell you what skill it is based off of.  Why?  Because you don't need to know.  ICly it works by you seeing an opening and making a jab.  How do you get better at doing that?  You simply do it and learn over time.  Yes, it might be code wise that if you use spears of doom skill it might get better quicker, but it is a mechanic that doesn't need to be known.  As someone already put, "How does it work?  You see an opening and swing."  Why do you need to know what exactly the code is looking at?  To maximize code wise how bad ass you are with the weapon?

Games get ruined when the code is known.  There is an optimal way to play a warrior.  There is a 'best' set of equipment and a 'best' set of skills and a 'best' way of training those skills.  If you play for a while you might start to get an inkling as to what exactly those 'best' might be.  However, due to Armageddon's nature, unless you are on the staff you are really never going to know for sure, and that is how it should be.  The mechanics should be as well hidden as possible and only revealed when it is needed.  Asking how to forage and what can be foraged is a perfectly viable mechanical question to ask.  Asking if foraging at night time is the same as foraging during the day time code was is the same is not a good question.  ICly, clearly you want to forage during the day to see the best, regardless if the game code takes it into account or not.  The same goes with wrist razors or what not.  It might be it doesn't take into account one thing but does another.  Who cares?  Just because the code might not consider something doesn't mean you shouldn't.

When in doubt, there is an old stand by.  Just do what would make sense in if it were real.  At worst, your wrist razor slashing skill will not max out as quickly.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I find myself on Rindan's side concerning this.

What we, as players, know, is that we need to do things to get better. What we, as players, need to know, is that we need to do things to get better.

That is all.

Anything else that we need to know is IC. We need to know the politics of Armageddon, IC. We need to know what this race does and that does. We need to know why we react IC to this this way.

As players, we do not need to know anything else. And do you know what happens in the end?

We keep coming back, because Armageddon is a mystery, and it always be. And that, as players, is all we need to know.