Men and Women: Flirtacious Bothering

[SuchDragonWow]

Arm is pretty good about both spectrums going to obnoxious levels with flirting.  If one gender is more prevalent, chalk it up to demographics, but our players are pretty good about keeping things to the docs, for the most part.  What some of you are not so good at is the art of seduction.  I've heard some hilarious ones from female friends.  Please, never change.

[Desertman]

Sexual harassment isn't rape and there isn't a rule against it either regardless of it is a personal hot button issue for some people.

While that's technically correct in that we don't have a specific rule about sexual harassment, if the behavior of a player is making the environment OOCly hostile for others, that is certainly something staff could investigate and act on. We do see behavior of this type on occasion, where IC becomes OOC.

Then what I said stands as true and accurate.

What you are stating is that if someone's IC behavior somehow stretches into the OOC and starts creating dangerous and hostile OOC environments for other players behind their keyboards that is against the rules.

That goes for every single thing in the game, is not specifically related to sexual harassment in any form, and goes without saying.

Not that I don't think it's a good policy. Of course it is. I'm just making the distinction that someone cat-calling you in Armageddon, speaking sexually towards you, sexually harassing you in a rough and tumble bar, or otherwise just being dirty and nasty towards you verbally in a sexual manner is not grounds to submit a player complaint and rationally expect that player to get punished because you were uncomfortable. (Submit it anyways of course, but, have realistic expectations based on the stated rules.)

They aren't raping you. It isn't against the rules.

Now if they start to go full on OOC crazy mode on you and it is just completely over the top and they are creeping on you in an OOC manner...yeah...report that....they've went full nuts.

[Reiloth]

"Amos can't be sexually harassed, they wouldn't allow it. And if they are, why don't they just store or play in Tuluk or get a new job?"

--Tektrump

[BrokenRomance]

This is probably a very charged question but...

Is it not harassment if my character has made it very strongly apparent that they do not appreciate repeated remarks about how much the person would like to boink them, yet they continue to do so? I think it has even got so bad once that I actually OOCly asked them to stop. That is the kind of stuff that makes me think these things. The people that don't seem capable of hearing the word "No.". I might just start stabbing them with a tainted blade.

[Yam]

The people that don't seem capable of hearing the word "No.". I might just start stabbing them with a tainted blade.

This is exactly what you should do. If someone annoys you IC, stab the shit out of them. Pay a templar to toss them in the arena. Pay elves to shit in their bed. Kill their weaker friends. Fuck them over.

[lordcooper]

Is it not harassment if my character has made it very strongly apparent that they do not appreciate repeatedly being stabbed, yet they continue to do so?

As far as I understand (and hope), IC harassment is absolutely fine.  I like it when my characters get harassed in any way, in pretty much any game.  If x makes you OOCly uncomfortable then say so OOCly.  If at all possible I'd try to cut it out (and assume most players here would too), but there's no obligation to do so and on the very rare occasion holding back would make no sense for my character whatsoever, I wouldn't.

[Jihelu]

I've statistically been flirted with more so by male characters than female characters, as a male character.
I actually think its kind of nice.
THAT MEANS I MAKE PRETTY CHARACTERS ;.;
Though I haven't ever seen out right harassment or what people were talking about with 'men say the darndest things behind a womans back'

[Desertman]

This is probably a very charged question but...

Is it not harassment if my character has made it very strongly apparent that they do not appreciate repeated remarks about how much the person would like to boink them, yet they continue to do so? I think it has even got so bad once that I actually OOCly asked them to stop. That is the kind of stuff that makes me think these things. The people that don't seem capable of hearing the word "No.". I might just start stabbing them with a tainted blade.

You shouldn't go OOC to ask them to stop unless they are doing something that violates the rules. That doesn't just go for this. That goes for everything. I've had people OOC me on several occasions for whatever reason that they didn't like what I was doing and that I should stop. (Never anything sexual.) Basically, they aren't staff, they don't make those decisions, and going OOC to try and act as if they are some authority on what I am and am not allowed to do is what's not acceptable. I reported them for it, and to be honest, I would report you for this. (And you would have every right to report me in return if you felt OOC'ly violated, and I would encourage you to. I would rather staff tell me I've crossed the line based on your report than continue to unknowingly have crossed a line.)

Report them and if staff determines they should stop, they will let them know and deal with it staff-side. Again, that doesn't just go for your situation. That goes for almost every situation where the offender is not in a direct violation of a specific stated and documented rule.

Unless they are trying to force you to boink them/let them boink you and go through the process of said physical force against you then they haven't broken a rule. If they  break that rule, then by all means....OOC the fuck out of them, wish up during the encounter for help, AND report them.

[Talia]

What some of you are not so good at is the art of seduction.  I've heard some hilarious ones from female friends.  Please, never change.

This is quite true. Although I've never seen dick pics be sent via Way, so it's not quite as ridiculously bad as in RL.

Now if they start to go full on OOC crazy mode on you and it is just completely over the top and they are creeping on you in an OOC manner...yeah...report that....they've went full nuts.

I think we're in agreement. However, I don't think it "goes without saying" that, etc. (You used that phrase in your quoted post.) I do think these things need to be said. I think players need to know that staff is interested in everyone having an environment that feels free of OOC harassment and abuse. It's not a burden for staff to look at these things when they come up.

[lordcooper]

You shouldn't go OOC to ask them to stop unless they are doing something that violates the rules.

I disagree.  If I'm making someone genuinely uncomfortable then I'd rather know so that I can shift the scene into something they're more comfortable with (provided I can justify my character doing so, if I can't justify it then nothing will change, but I'd suggest most characters have some wiggle room to change their mind/approach in most situations).  Arm's a game; the ideal outcome for me is that anyone I play with enjoys it, just not at the expense of my own immersion/enjoyment. 

Note: I've never OOC asked someone to do this and likely never would, I'm probably about as hard to offend as you are.

[Desertman]

I think we're in agreement. However, I don't think it "goes without saying" that, etc. (You used that phrase in your quoted post.) I do think these things need to be said. I think players need to know that staff is interested in everyone having an environment that feels free of OOC harassment and abuse. It's not a burden for staff to look at these things when they come up.

Poor wording. I should have said, "That's common sense.".

But yeah, you are right, if someone feels the need to state it, it can only help.

[Desertman]

You shouldn't go OOC to ask them to stop unless they are doing something that violates the rules.

I disagree.  If I'm making someone genuinely uncomfortable then I'd rather know so that I can shift the scene into something they're more comfortable with (provided I can justify my character doing so, if I can't justify it then nothing will change, but I'd suggest most characters have some wiggle room to change their mind/approach in most situations).  Arm's a game; the ideal outcome for me is that anyone I play with enjoys it, just not at the expense of my own immersion/enjoyment.  

Note: I've never OOC asked someone to do this and likely never would, I'm probably about as hard to offend as you are.

Fair point.

I guess I should have said, "You can request that they stop, but unless they are breaking the rules, they probably won't, and shouldn't, unless they personally feel like they should, and if they don't, too bad for you.".

I feel most people probably would stop, up to and including myself, because that's the kind of players we are.

However, I've seen it enough personally (poor use of the OOC command to complain/berate/tell people to "stop") to know that some of us are also the kinds of players who would abuse the shit out of this because we are super-sensitive-want-to-be-offendeds....so I don't want to see any "hurt my feelings bro" rules put in place for this sort of thing.

We already have a hardstop rule on rape. That's as far as that should go.

[Majikal]

Someone repeatedly trying to get in your pc's pants? R u too curvaceous? Tressy? Busty? Curvy? Mebbe u should stop tdescing the clawmarks on your back you dirty lil player you? Mebbe you just dunt like it?

Murder. Corrupt. Betray. Carry on.

I've never seen ic harassment that couldn't be solved by a swift bone sword to the neck.

[flurry]

I feel like the whole "there's no rule against it" argument is not very compelling. There are plenty of things that fall within the rules of the game that aren't good for the game.

I've definitely had characters which I chose to play less often or with different playtimes to avoid dealing with certain behavior. While I have a high tolerance for my characters going through difficulties, I play to enjoy the experience of playing. So if I'm not, I don't.

[Armaddict]

If my behavior is triggering your past or making something come to the front that is -actually- disturbing you, please ooc to me asking me to lighten up, and perhaps even start an OOC discussion that openly establishes boundaries and what is okay and what is not okay.

If my behavior is triggering your need to fix sexism and enforce political correctness, that is an OOC construct that I willingly follow in real life and am active in, but do not believe is present in zalanthas.  Please don't OOC to me to tell me I'm an asshole for doing this when I'm literally playing an asshole in an asshole world.

This is my distinction.  I in no way, shape, or form want to make people genuinely triggered.  But I in no way, shape, or form want real life social ideals entering Zalanthas out of a sense of justice in a video game.

[Desertman]

I feel like the whole "there's no rule against it" argument is not very compelling.

Which doesn't make it not true.

[flurry]

Has anyone even talked about being triggered? Is it irrational to think that in-game sexual harassment isn't fun to be around?

[Jingo]

Or perhaps we can all stop pretending that it's a line we're allowed to cross. Fighting for your right to tell someone you'll skullfuck them just makes you look like a basement dwelling shitnugget.

[Case]

I've played some horndog women and some not so horndog women, but a common theme is that I'll get randomly hit on by people I've never met or barely met where you can tell the only reason they're talking to my PC is about sex. That is fine, but it can be persistent and weird sometimes.

[Armaddict]

You can keep saying things like that, but it's really not a compelling argument.  It doesn't really make you look any better either.

The point was that if what I'm doing is causing you some sort of harm, then I certainly don't want that.  But if you're trying to take a moral stance in a game literally -based around an entirely different moral code- that is also -incredibly entrenched in deep roleplay-, then I don't really entertain the idea.  That's your OOC coming into the IC.  I don't care if the IC world offends you.  Because it should.  It's got pretty much everything that we, in real life standards, consider dastardly, terrible things that make for a shitty human being.  But that's the societal standard of zalanthas.  It's to the point that it takes an adjustment period for most people when they join the game.

It's like you step into a D&D campaign where you walk through a side-village of slaves and you suddenly make the entire campaign about freeing them because slavery is evil and shouldn't be tolerated.  Sure, you're right...for real life.  But this is a fantasy world, and this is a setting, and this is a roleplaying game.  I talk about triggering because that is the case where there is actual harm coming to someone.  This feels like the equivalent of someone going into a comedy club and having a guy start using a lot of racist jokes, and you decide you have to go and heckle his routine when the concept of freedom of choice is that you can leave at any point.  You don't have to make it your personal mission to make everyone behave the way you think you ought to behave.  You're choosing to.  Which is your choice.  But going on to attack the character of said person because they have a different perception (or rather, the same perception, but purposely dispelling it for the sake of a dystopian setting) is pretty low.  And yet that seems to be a recurring theme to your posts in particular, Jingo.  You -love- trying to insert an all out attack on character of the people who aren't ardent in bringing real life feelings into the game.  It's to the point that I'm likely going to start using that report to moderator button that I have literally not used in 15 years of being active on the GDB.

Some people intentionally like maintaining the non-friendly, gritty, mean atmosphere where you -know- that not everyone is going to be kind-hearted and consider your feelings.  It's not them attacking you OOC as a player.  It's not even their belief OOC.  But you seem to hone in on it as if it is.  The rules of Armageddon were set up in such a way to actually promote that this is the case; there's a reason they were worded the way they are.  It's a game that is meant to be intentionally -not nice-.  And if you can't separate that IC world from your OOC feelings, I think you may be allowing yourself to be a little too sensitive to it.

Or perhaps we can all stop pretending that it's a line we're allowed to cross. Fighting for your right to tell someone you'll skullfuck them just makes you look like a basement dwelling shitnugget.

I'm curious where this line exists.  Not as in where do you cross it, but as in what standard of judgment are you using?  Is it an OOC moral authority, or an IC one, as far as dictating IC actions and societal standard?  As I said...I'm not pushing for people to be psychologically harmed through playing the game.  But you're pretty much saying that creating any sort of dystopian roleplay is completely unacceptable if it contains <this>, <this>, or <this>, because we know in real life that those things are wrong.

Edit:  And it should be noted...I'm not even one of the people who goes around trying to sexualize female pc's in the game.  I, for the most part, play very solitary pcs.  It takes some work to get them into familiarity. But I will say crude things, untargeted.  But that doesn't mean I'm rallying to this idea that sexualized behavior is some sort of harsh injustice.  I think I've been pretty clear in that if something is making you altogether uncomfortable, there's nothing wrong with oocing to set up those boundaries.  But making the blanket ruling is neither prudent nor necessary.  And talking down on others from some sort of moral high horse in a dystopian roleplaying game is a strange sort of effort to make.

[BrokenRomance]

I'm just going to address this.

I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.

I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

[Yam]

The real way to curb this is to make fme serial killers. Make mudsex dangerous again.

[Jingo]

The line is pretty clear. Keep your verbal abuse non-sexual and try to avoid sexist slurs. And then *dingding* you're in the clear.

And perhaps do your best to not sexualize characters that don't want to be sexualized.

[Desertman]

The line is pretty clear. Keep your verbal abuse non-sexual

That isn't the line. The line is clear at "no rape RP allowed.".

That is the line. The line you are talking about doesn't exist.

Pretending the line is somewhere else for your own comfort zones isn't the game you are playing and the actual game possibly isn't a game for everyone.

[Desertman]

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.

If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.

Until then, you are just dealing with reality.