Zalanthian Culture: Embrace your HATE

[gotdamnmiracle]

This might have been answered already in documentation or the like, but do Delfs have more favor for city elfs than a regular city human? They are both just as removed from the tribe unless you consider the race to be a far removed extension of the tribe.

[Majikal]

This might have been answered already in documentation or the like, but do Delfs have more favor for city elfs than a regular city human? They are both just as removed from the tribe unless you consider the race to be a far removed extension of the tribe.

I've seen this go both ways, obviously depending on the tribes involved you can get a multitude of reactions but one thing to remember is that elves are very proud. A desert elf very well might see a c-elf born and raised within the walls with disgust, while there is only ONE elf race a d-elf would never consider themselves to be anything like a city-elf in any aspect other than they probably both speak Allundean. There's nothing to say a d-elf doesn't find some respect in a c-elves ability to succeed in a city ruled by round-ears, or even prefer to deal with c-elves over round-ears when it comes time to do trading etc.

Players can decide what attitudes best fit their pc and the tribes that don't have hard documentation concerning relations with outsiders, the most important thing to remember though is that a d-elf and a c-elf would never consider eachother to be the same.

[Jihelu]

I always remember the golden rule:
Be generally nice to everyone you meet and talk shit about them behind their back like everyone does anyway.

[anvilsmith]

The people using the word 'racism' are getting it wrong, as they do when discussing real-world race relations. It's not about an inexplicable urge to oppose or reject members of other races. It's about having attitudes that fit in with reality. Are elves manipulative and deceptive, oftentimes acting like petty con artists? Then you probably don't want to be their friend, and if you have a sense of justice, you probably want to be their enemy. Are half-elves neurotic and likely suffering from a personality disorder? Then you don't want to get emotionally entangled with them, and besides, some of them share the treacherous ways of their elven parent. Are dwarves stubborn and keen to dismiss those who do not fit in with their plans? Then you will probably be as aloof of them as they are of you. Are half-giants dumb? Then you will not take them very seriously. What about muls? Well, everyone knows they're extremely aggressive, so it's sensible not to spend time with them, because if you ever say the wrong thing and they go berzerk on you, it'll be over in seconds.

As for magickers, their powers often involve causing illness, burning people alive and wrecking their minds. Once you do find out about their powers, will you really expect these people to use them for good and friendly purposes? And even if someone introduces themselves as a magickal healer or traveller, can you really trust that they aren't fiddling with powers of death and defilement instead?

"Racism" is not illogical, but simply the natural way of interacting with characters of various races. Likewise, the common people's wariness towards magick is quite reasonable given what magickers normally do.

[Riev]

I don't think its the racism that isn't being portrayed, specifically, its that people are actually seemingly afraid of conflict that might end poorly for their PC. Not everyone, but a decent amount of people that don't care to discriminate against that elf, because legit 5 more will crawl out of the woodwork to murderstab you.

I mean. Its realistic. The issue is, its too easy to go right to stabbing and killing, and a lot of times even -I- will avoid a particular reaction just because while my PC probably believes it, I might be afraid of the rammifications.

[Dakota]

if I play arm again, I'll make a throw-away f-me, breed water gicker...

I will kank anything that can be kanked.

I will spread some form of VD that I will beg staff to spread w. each PC I kank.

Even if you say you hate mudsex on the forums, my emote-fu will cause you to breakdown on a slow night.

And I'll send in kank reports to the bums who kanked a breed gicker.

Someone steal this concept. It's a good one. b/c spreading VD as a f-me, breed gicker is an awesome way to teach a lesson.

[edit: I've sent in Kudos to others w. notes to staff saying they should get karma... for being ruthless in racial hate against a few of my c-elf PCs]

[Dunetrade55]

I think the biggest thing making city elves "almost unplayable" is a lack of actual tribes, and the long wait and approval/preapproval process plus superimposed outside limitations on the creation of tribes in tandem with that lack. If either of those two factors changed, it would be a huge boon to elven playability.

There wasn't a long wait for me.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with eliminating this line:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed per family or tribe--and not just four alive at one time, but four PCs, total. This includes your PC."

Change it to something like:

"Only four (4) PC members are allowed alive at one time per family or tribe, including your PC.  If there are no PCs in the tribe, then the tribe is dead (i.e., fully virtual and no longer open to play).  Otherwise, people can keep applying for a role as long as there is an open slot.  There is a six month pause before you can re-apply for the same tribe."

Hence, if three of your tribemembers die, you can refresh the role call.  If all four die, well, nice run, game over.

Is there a thread on this? If not, I feel there should be. Not saying too many players would do this, but there's always the potential meta-gaming exception out there who will either purposefully, or possibly subconsciously, murder a key member (which at an overall max of four, they're ALL key members, sort of) of a tribe either to win armageddon, or even worse, just for the evulz (hopefully, this very, very rarely happens), knowing that the tribe/family can never be replenished by some sort of rolecall thread pulling from the virtual population.

Also, to my understanding, there's sometimes that day one (or if you're extremely unlucky, three of them) character who sneaks into a tribal/family rolecall who can't resist beetles, vultures, that massive sinkhole, or a sudden and unexplainable urge to free the slaves. Would be nice if there could be one to three mulligans, so a simple and honest mistake on the part of the one making the family rolecall doesn't immediately flush it all down the urinal, cigarette butts and all... though I think, in this scenario, it's more of a case of, choose wisely.

[Armaddict]

Not saying too many players would do this, but there's always the potential meta-gaming exception out there who will either purposefully, or possibly subconsciously, murder a key member (which at an overall max of four, they're ALL key members, sort of) of a tribe either to win armageddon, or even worse, just for the evulz (hopefully, this very, very rarely happens), knowing that the tribe/family can never be replenished by some sort of rolecall thread pulling from the virtual population.

How is this different than any other construct PC's make in the game, or even clans?  People target leaders.  People target assets to their opposition.  I'd say that they should be very careful who they make enemies of, rather than deciding that there is a huge virtual pool of people to draw on to keep things going.  You aren't making the Sun Runners or Jaxa Pah when you create an elven tribe/family.  You're one of the small groups that is just as vulnerable as any other small group in politics.  If they are worried about someone killing family members, that is incentive to either remove the threat, or to make sure it's not a threat via diplomacy or other means.  I think this is an insistence on some sort of permanence in a realm where we've already made things far more long lasting than they were, and with more support even.

I am not against actual tribes being put in, for city elves in particular, but I don't think PC-created tribes need additional help in surviving the rigors and dangers of the city-political realm until certain milestones have been hit that mark them as something bigger than just another of the thousands of small families and tribes that spring up and are wiped out on a relatively routine basis of such structures.  These aren't all thousand year old bloodlines, nor will they be.

[Dunetrade55]

Not saying too many players would do this, but there's always the potential meta-gaming exception out there who will either purposefully, or possibly subconsciously, murder a key member (which at an overall max of four, they're ALL key members, sort of) of a tribe either to win armageddon, or even worse, just for the evulz (hopefully, this very, very rarely happens), knowing that the tribe/family can never be replenished by some sort of rolecall thread pulling from the virtual population.

How is this different than any other construct PC's make in the game, or even clans?  People target leaders.  People target assets to their opposition.  I'd say that they should be very careful who they make enemies of, rather than deciding that there is a huge virtual pool of people to draw on to keep things going.  You aren't making the Sun Runners or Jaxa Pah when you create an elven tribe/family.  You're one of the small groups that is just as vulnerable as any other small group in politics.  If they are worried about someone killing family members, that is incentive to either remove the threat, or to make sure it's not a threat via diplomacy or other means.  I think this is an insistence on some sort of permanence in a realm where we've already made things far more long lasting than they were, and with more support even.

I am not against actual tribes being put in, for city elves in particular, but I don't think PC-created tribes need additional help in surviving the rigors and dangers of the city-political realm until certain milestones have been hit that mark them as something bigger than just another of the thousands of small families and tribes that spring up and are wiped out on a relatively routine basis of such structures.  These aren't all thousand year old bloodlines, nor will they be.

You get targeted simply for existing sometimes (I know I have), and that's all I'll say about that. "Be careful" simply isn't a sufficient strategy.

I'm not even going to debate it with you, all I mostly said is why can't this idea have its own thread, and provided a few far-flung scenarios that can and do sometimes happen, particularly with more powerful groups (which, yes, you shouldn't piss them off, that's a given, but see my sentence above).

[Armaddict]

Edit: Moving it to the other thread.

[Jingo]

You get targeted simply for existing sometimes (I know I have), and that's all I'll say about that. "Be careful" simply isn't a sufficient strategy.

+1 :/

[Reiloth]

I will say that playing a City Elf definitely gives you one or maybe two insights into being racially disadvantaged in a society geared to work against you and keep you down. While I would never compare it to the 'African American Experience' in America, at least not without a bit of tongue-and-cheek parody involved, it definitely mirrors much of the societal/racial disfunction in America, except elves are racially inclined to steal, lie, and cheat. Oh, and elves really -aren't- very good Guards or employees. Basically, everything you think about Elves is true, but Elves are just like 'Wha Happen?'

When I do play a City Elf, I can almost guarantee every other time I log in, someone is blaming something on me or another elf I know. It's OOCly so amusing, and ICly so distressing most of the time. When I play an elf, I usually avoid the Arena like the plague, because what stops someone from pointing you out and getting you tossed in? Especially in a place like Zalanthas -- Humans don't have rights, at least none that a Templar could easily overlook. An elf? Pfah! They might as well have 'criminal' in their sdesc (some do).

"Sir, a Mindbender is on the loose!"
"Well, roundup the nearest elf."
"But sir, elves can't be mindbenders, it says so in the 'Dummies Guide to Zalanthas' you read all the time..."
"I don't care, if you don't get me an elf in five minutes, i'll put elf ears on you and execute you myself. Who taught you to read?"
"Errr...Some elf I know..."
"Well, find another elf that is that elf's friend, and meet me in the arena. On the double, Private!"

So I guess I would say I think elf hate is alive and well, for sure. It isn't 'hate' per se, but it is definitely societally encouraged and motivated racism.

[Armaddict]

I agree it's alive and healthy, Reiloth.

It's one of those things you have to get used to as an elf player.  The frustration is real, when you absolutely did nothing and had no intention of doing anything, and it goes poorly for you.

If you want to feel what it's like to be able to have anyone you want be an antagonist based off how you view things, play some elves loyal to eastside labyrinth.  You will learn how to view clans you thought of as the heros as villains really fast.

[Jihelu]

I feel like I blame elves for shit ironically now.

[Jingo]

It makes sense a bit icly to do that. But it really isn't fun to play a part of that.

[Jihelu]

I've never gone out to accuse someone ic of something I've done, though hell I probably should more and get more people killed, but if I had to I would pick that generic elf that sneaks around and steals while being unaffiliated.
What does this mean?
It means if you do illegal shit as an elf you should probably look to the Templarate, LOW KEY STYLE, for some protection.
Think Tuluk but not at all.

[thewolfen3]

I read only some of the first page, but I have to agree and disagree with the OP. Now, here is my reasoning. First, I often see quite a few elves and even breeds discriminated against, those few that are well accepted usually have been around quite a while, and sometimes I even just have to say, oh. Friendly to face. That kind of thing is possible in game. The discrimination can be subtle. Now, I don't have issues with how people want to play, in fact, I think it's mainly sponsored roles or the NPC, vNPC of the population that should react at times. Now, I left this for later, because I wanted to note this is an issue I've seen. Mages as well as tribal people seem a bit overly accepted. While there might be background to it, I do like to see it when both of them receive their dislike. However, again, with Mages or those in clans, or Mages that are in clans, do you want to upset the people they work for by treating them with some manner of dislike? That is up to you. To be honest, I generally play characters that are accepting to an extent, but often due to backstory or an in-game reason, and sometimes they might not really like what they see, although they will keep quiet for safety. That being said, remember that half-elves do exist. Whether most are the product of one thing or another, there is something of a status quo that makes these matters seem... Well, questionable, really. Technically the PCs are a small bit of the population. I can honestly say even if I saw five PCs fawning over a Mage, I'm more likely to imagine the 100 vNPCs within the room are not happy and satisfied.

[Hauwke]

I agree with pretty much everything you said thewolfen3. My only disagreement is that I think breeds should be viewed as worse than elves. Literally my only difference in few.

[thewolfen3]

I agree with pretty much everything you said thewolfen3. My only disagreement is that I think breeds should be viewed as worse than elves. Literally my only difference in few.

They definitely seem to have more love than actual elves. Their main thing, was supposed to be how they are disliked on both sides. Generally I think I've seen some respected quite a bit, which is odd. Although, I have one thing to add to my previous words. That is, I think Bynners are usually an exception, if only in a forced interaction working together you all equally suck view their Sergeants put them through.

[Jihelu]

From a work perspective, especially through the Byn, I think Breeds should be liked/valued more than elves.
Because breeds can ride.
Ride very good.
Elves refuse to because they're stupid and run good.
Spoilers, they don't run good.


Atleast liked more in that regard.

[Riev]

From a work perspective, especially through the Byn, I think Breeds should be liked/valued more than elves.
Because breeds can ride.
Ride very good.
Elves refuse to because they're stupid and run good.
Spoilers, they don't run good.


Atleast liked more in that regard.

Counterpoint:

With an elf, you KNOW what to expect. You KNOW they are going to lie, they are going to try and steal from you, and you KNOW they're going to be lazy.

With a breed, you have NO idea if they're going to be useful, or break down crying, or threaten to run off because they're being moody, or try and steal from you and then apologize and then get mad at YOU for being so open to thievery in the first place etc etc.

[whitt]

Atleast liked more in that regard.

By these same standards, human gicks should be the best Runners ever.

[path]

Breeds are gross, sure, but they have to have some human element...in there. For sure, they're freaks of nature. Filthy and against everything I stand for.

However, elves are, to my mind, significantly more alien.

[Jingo]

Elves have cemented themselves a spot inside the social and economic order of the city states. At least that's always been my interpretation based on documentation and NPC clues. Despite the player head-canon that loudly proclaims otherwise.

Half-elves don't have that spot. They're wayward castaways that should expect to be kicked around at best.

[Jihelu]

For the points posted above this post, except Path I guess, I change my statement.