Open the goddamn gates at nighttime.

[Miradus]

I can play around the gates being open or closed.

When I log on and I can't see because the sand swirls all around me, I generally log out and either come back in thirty minutes or find something else to do with my free time.

And sometimes, Armageddon, you lose out to Don't Starve.

[Armaddict]

I can play around the gates being open or closed.

When I log on and I can't see because the sand swirls all around me, I generally log out and either come back in thirty minutes or find something else to do with my free time.

And sometimes, Armageddon, you lose out to Don't Starve.

If I quit out in the wild and this is the case, then yeah...there's not a lot you can do about it.  Can't do anything when you can't see.

But in the case you're close to civilization, there's generally other things I can do, whether they be around other PC's or not.  You have said you like being in the north, I assume this is likely a very different feeling for you since there's a lot less things to do around the village that isn't based around...things -outside- the village.  So I don't think your scenario applies here.

[nauta]

I think my argument for a case to be made for leaving them open would be to appeal to the loss of interaction that is had.  It's not a lot, but it's why I'd want RSV gates to remain open: we don't get that many people inside the village to begin with.  So, and I think this would apply to Allanak, I'd rather spend those 30 minutes with other PCs interacting, rather than idling at the gates.

[Armaddict]

...sooo...wouldn't it be just as good to use 3 of those 10 minutes at dusk to continue to Red Storm where they need the interaction?

Edit:  That's not exactly the point I was pushing for.  The point I'm pushing for is that wanting interaction and such is well and good, but viewing inconveniences to your character as faulty or outdated code that needs to be removed is not exactly a good line of approach either.  If we're just playing this game to find all the inconveniences that annoy us and ask that we remove them, we ain't exactly setting ourselves up to enjoy anything about the game in the first place.  The point of my first post was not 'F U, keep the gates closed because open gates r dum!', it's that we are following a startlingly real trend of making demands that the game world and code change in order to suit our whims and try to turn an RPI into non-stop action, excitement, entertainment, and badassity.

I think this is an example of that.  Someone got caught outside the gates...probably a relatively infrequent occurrence for them...and it's now tumulted into a discussion of how closing gates at dusk is limiting roleplay.  That's...a little hyperbolic, considering that said gates closing is also -adding- content to roleplay for those who have to worry about them and plan around them.

Edit again:  I mean...sure, this may get your average joe hunter to the bar at dusk.  But does it help the raider role, who can no longer base their survival in the wilds around the flood of activity at dawn, and the trickle in til dusk?  Does it help the soldier, who relies on the gates being closed to have a window of time to look for that guy who ran from you in the night streets?  You immediately jump to it severely limiting interaction, but it's adding a large influence to the game.  Open the gates or close them, I don't think this will have some -profound- impact on anything.  But I think the approach used to come to this suggestion is neither new nor exactly sound in motivation and consideration for what's gained and lost.

I think if the gates closing at dusk is causing this large of a problem for you, you might either make your Byn outings more prepped for an overnight stay and survival training and a camping in the dangerous wilds scene, or edit your routine to get there earlier.  Shit will happen that will make you miss it, but that's...not a fault in the game's plan.  That's part of it.

[RogueGunslinger]

It's not faulty or outdated, and it make sense ICly. It can make sense ICly the other way as well.

My entire point is that it's a shitty situation OOCly regardless of how you roleplay it. So why not make it less of a shitty situation, so that people are more inclined to do all that roleplaying.

Edit: All these suggestions you're giving is shit I already do. Working around a problem doens't mean the problem doesn't exist. Raiders are so rare catering to them above everyone else seem ridiculous. The OOC benefits FAR outweigh the IC losses.

[Armaddict]

Raiders are indeed rare.  So is getting stuck outside the gates unless you're purposely playing with it and trying to stretch time.

I brought up raiders specifically because we complain about there being not enough of them, but here you are casually suggesting a change that would make things even more difficult for them.  Not because closed gates fuck people, but because it makes a schedule based on IC things rather than people's OOC whims about when to do things.

If IC circumstance makes you late for the gates, I kinda feel like that's exactly the scenario I'm talking about where there's so much more to it than 'SHIT, I'M NOT WHERE I WANTED TO BE, LOG OUT.'

Are you getting caught outside the gates over and over, RGS?  Is this truly removing content from the game?  Is this truly something so unjust?  I think it's not a big deal, that you've made it a much bigger argument about interaction than it actually is, and you're just kinda sticking to your guns at this point despite knowing it's not truly that big of a deal.  The only reason -I'm- here is to address the knee-jerk 'Change the game!' reaction that is becoming so prevalent, complete with 'or I'll leave/not play as much/the game will suffer terribly!'

[Jihelu]

You can criticize an idea without criticizing a person Arm. I don't personally care for the change if it does stay close or not. I do think it makes more sense in a desert society to keep the gates closed. Or maybe I'm just 'mad' that I'm stuck outside all the time?

[RogueGunslinger]

Raiders are indeed rare.  So is getting stuck outside the gates unless you're purposely playing with it and trying to stretch time.

Are you getting caught outside the gates over and over, RGS?

You seem to still be missing the point. The point isn't that people are getting stuck inside or outside the gates. The point is people avoid playing because they don't want to get stuck inside or outside the gates, or have tavern-sitting as the only decent roleplay interaction.

I can list off a few reasons why it's more realistic to keep access into and out of a city in the desert at night. The only argument with any weight people seem to have against the idea is that it's makes it harder on raiders... Even though you can ALREADY run off to multiple nearby places if you want to escape a raider.

[Armaddict]

You can criticize an idea without criticizing a person Arm. I don't personally care for the change if it does stay close or not. I do think it makes more sense in a desert society to keep the gates closed. Or maybe I'm just 'mad' that I'm stuck outside all the time?

I'm sorry you read it that way.

But I don't really know how to reiterate, particularly with it being confirmed, that this suggestion is less based around it being good for the game and more around the frustration of things not turning out the way they wanted it.

I started off trying to be helpful with other options and an urge to see it in a different light, but that turned into me being a paragon of roleplay, so I elaborated on why, exactly, the process of this thread as far as dictating change doesn't sit well with me.

[RogueGunslinger]

The only reason -I'm- here is to address the knee-jerk 'Change the game!' reaction that is becoming so prevalent, complete with 'or I'll leave/not play as much/the game will suffer terribly!'

So the only reason you're here is to be contrary to changes to the game? It's not knee-jerk, and it's not some threat of leaving the game. It's a matter of fact that people log out when they see night time is closing in... Especially so if they have limited time to play.

[Jihelu]

We should all just be friends or something idk.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Armaddict]

The point is people avoid playing because they don't want to get stuck inside or outside the gates, or have tavern-sitting as the only decent roleplay interaction.

You avoid playing because of the gates?  Or you log out when you get stuck outside?  Those are two very different things.

I mean, if you stop logging into the game because gates close at dusk, I don't know what to say.  Nor do I see how keeping gates open changes barsitting aside from letting you get from outside the gates to the bar at dusk.

I didn't miss the point.  You've elaborated on it many times.  If you get stuck outside, you just want to log out.  That's been stated explicitly and implicitly, but because the change was challenged, you've drawn it out to a much...more monumental effect than it really is.  Which is in turn making me say I'm not going to say we should change it just because you started being louder about it.  Your reasoning still doesn't resonate with me.  I still think it's blown out of proportion.  And I still think it's based on your original post's tone, which is frustration, despite it not actually happening that much, making it one of those things that is indeed a frustrating consequence...but one that is generally okay for what it also provides, which is a reliable IC schedule for the masses and a daily routine-setter.

The only reason -I'm- here is to address the knee-jerk 'Change the game!' reaction that is becoming so prevalent, complete with 'or I'll leave/not play as much/the game will suffer terribly!'

So the only reason you're here is to be contrary to changes to the game? It's not knee-jerk, and it's not some threat of leaving the game. It's a matter of fact that people log out when they see night time is closing in... Especially so if they have limited time to play.

That's not what I said at all, dude.  You're getting worked up over nothing, and now just leaving out important details on what I'm saying in order to come at my character.  I said your motivation was your frustration, which you have confirmed, not something that actually improves the game.  If they have limited time to play, they can log out outside the gates, safely, regardless of class.  That's not a factor.

I didn't say you threatened to leave the game.  I lumped 'logging out' as part of the same 'you'll have less players' addendum to the change in order to increase its weight.  But in the end, the argument remains as 'Because I wanted to be doing something else and mistimed my arrival'.  Which was then expounded into 'to promote interaction', but I am failing to see this as enough of a commonplace thing that it is actually limiting roleplay or the game.

[Jihelu]

Pros:
1: Allowing people to have a more flexible schedule and letting clans get out more, then again most aren't supposed to be out of the city anyway so I guess it allows you to sneak out more often?
2: I guess it's kinda more realistic? Of course if situations arise where monsters are attacking at night, which is kinda weird, then there would be ic reason to close it, but then again even during the day time they just close the gates when monsters pop up.
3: Idk

Cons:
1: I guess the raider issue is one. I don't see it making it impossible for raiders but harder. Did people actually gank people outside gates at night?
2: Idk

[RogueGunslinger]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Arm. I didn't have any intention of attacking your character(I don't think I did?), and I'm not arguing out of frustration at all and I'm not getting worked up. The frustration was over after the first post in this thread. I'm just here, arguing on the GDB like I always do.

[Armaddict]

What are the pros and cons of having the gates open vs closed?

I can't think of many compelling reasons not to have the gates open at night other than that's the way it's always been.

That's why it's frustrating.  I've said several times that the gates being opened or closed is not really that big of a deal, though I do see it as an unnecessary change that does indeed affect things other than the guy stuck outside.  Not monumentally...but it's not really a monumental problem either.  As a rule, as a skeptic, I view the burden of persuasion on the instigator of change, not on the defender of the current state.  I do not find the current line of persuasion on it very sound, which means...I challenge it.  I'm sorry that gets people -really worked up- over it.  But when minor changes can impact a lot more than just the immediate idea at hand, I prefer conservatism until I get persuaded.  That's...the nature of persuasion.

My pro to the gates opening and closing every day is that it limits me in no way unless I make a mistake and arrive late.  In the meantime, it adds a daily routine to the life of the city dweller who also works outside, which affects both people in the city and people from outside the city.

My con is that sometimes you get caught out there and that makes some people decide they'd rather log out than wait, because they can no longer get in to go about their business and must find new business for outside the gates, whether that be idling, moving on to a place with no closing gates, or milking the time before night actually falls (Edit:  And this is not snarky, but trying to demonstrate that this is a much larger con for some players than others.)

[Reiloth]

I agree the gates should be openable without PC intervention (Templars). If there was some code for offering money to soldiers to open it, or something like this, sure. But i'd sooner see the gates just be open. The fewer opportunities for draconian code to force people to log out or structure their interaction/playing the game, the better. It would be one thing if the gates closed, and you could get them open via bribery, but this is just an arbitrary "The gates close at night" just as "The market closes at night". It's just the way things are, not the way they should/need to be.

I find the raider argument flimsy, as well as any IC justification for the gates being closed. Many cities are 24 hours, especially in a place as hot as Zalanthas. I think this is a modern assertion of the 9-5 schedule, where people don't go shopping at 9PM. You will find around the world, say in Vietnam or Thailand, that entire cities are 24 hours, where massive markets pop up only in the evening, when it's cooled off.

If Allanak's gates functioned like Tuluk (Stay open unless threat is nearby, or Templar closes it), i'd be happy with it.

[Armaddict]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Arm. I didn't have any intention of attacking your character(I don't think I did?), and I'm not arguing out of frustration at all and I'm not getting worked up. The frustration was over after the first post in this thread. I'm just here, arguing on the GDB like I always do.

Then we're victims of text.  I thought you were getting worked up, which was making me get more worked up because I'm really -not- that passionate about some gates.  I just viewed it as frivolous change, is all, which can often change things...unexpectedly.  I apologize.

(As far as the attack on character, that's what I felt the 'You're only here to prevent change' was.  But in rereading...again, victim of text.)

[Armaddict]

Having played many raiders, and having seen plenty of posts talking about how hard it is being a raider...I kind of disagree that it's as flimsy as you say, particularly when we seem to want more of them.

However.  The idea of gates opening without PC interaction is fine...but I don't think it should be immediate, either.  Truth be told, there's something to inconvenience here which is providing consequence that is not so severe.  It's been...talked to a point of severity, but sometimes inconvenience is the middle ground between 'no consequence' and 'dire consequence'.

So as far as -this- discussion, are the gates worth having consequences over?  I find both pros and cons to be...minor, of little gain and little loss on average, but affecting some roles more drastically than others.

As far as the motivation behind it which was where I got focused on, I was getting caught up in the argument of 'Is inconvenience actually something we should be getting rid of in an RPI that emphasizes consequences?'

[Reiloth]

Eh, i've seen incredibly successful raiders in Tuluk, and the gates are always open.

Well, except for now. Now, they are closed 

[Malifaxis]

Eh, i've seen incredibly successful raiders in Tuluk, and the gates are always open.

Well, except for now. Now, they are closed 

TOO SOON REILOTH!!!

[Reiloth]

Eh, i've seen incredibly successful raiders in Tuluk, and the gates are always open.

Well, except for now. Now, they are closed 

TOO SOON REILOTH!!!

[Majikal]

The sadness in this is that apparently I'll never get to catch a RogueGunSlinger pc outside with the gates closed to viciously murder his ass....

However, I get to watch him get rekt in Overwatch all the time which is almost as satisfying.

[nauta]

-When shops are closed, the merchant's long description will be updated to indicate so

Just FYI, one of the suggestions in this thread just got implemented.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg948620.html#msg948620

(And just checked and it looks like Delirium wins the thread!)

I don't mind that the shops close, but I would like it if they actually packed up their wares and went somewhere else.  I'd like to see the time shorter.  I'd also like to see different shops with different schedules.

Shops closing at night is the most jarring part of this (admittedly annoying) piece of code.

In this brutally hot desert world, taking a siesta from late morning to early afternoon would make more sense.

It would also be less annoying from a playability standpoint, as PCs are by and large busiest during the day and only have the evenings free.

The second most jarring is that they don't actually close up shop; a simple change of long description would help.

This would alert PCs that the merchant is closed for business and provide more IC continuity.

i.e., The merchant stands here, hawking his wares. vs The merchant lazes around, taking a nap.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I saw that. Very comforting to note thatvthe staff are listening.