Open the goddamn gates at nighttime.

[RogueGunslinger]

It will make the game better, I promise you.

Also, stop closing all the fucking shops at nighttime. Thanks.

You've made it so that night-time I would rather log out for.

[Miradus]

I second that. In a lot of desert countries, the shops stay open late into the evening because that's when it's cool enough for people to come out.

The gates, well, I think the guards ought to be able to tell the difference between an invading army and a lone grebber.

[Vositus]

Doesn't night-time last 10-20 minutes IRL?

[Hitsuchi]

Night-time for the shops is from the start of dusk to the start of dawn (30 mins IRL) if I recall correctly? I'd be very very very happy if the shops were closed only during "before dawn", or not at all.

[Vositus]

Night-time for the shops is from the start of dusk to the start of dawn (30 mins IRL) if I recall correctly? I'd be very very very happy if the shops were closed only during "before dawn", or not at all.

Oh. Yeah I guess that is a long time, then.

Even so... only the baddest of asses would risk being outside the gates past dusk, right? Aren't the sands supposed to be like... fucking dangerous? I always default to my character being scared shitless of being caught out in a storm outside the gates, and thus, always punctual. If they walk up to closed gates, it's a good time to RP a little anxiety/fear. Even if you're a tribal or used to being out in the open, being late to the gates closing is an IC thing.

The gates stay closed cuz Thrain like... stormed the castle, yo. (Note: not accurate)

I agree the shops should stay open.

[RogueGunslinger]

Doesn't night-time last 10-20 minutes IRL?

30 minutes. Dusk - Late at night - Before dawn. But the problem extends well beyond that time.

You log in, you're a Byn Sergeant. You see that it's Early afternoon on Desert Survival day. You want to take your troopers and runners out for a bit of hunting but you KNOW you won't have enough time to get everyone together, get to the stable, doll out mount tickets and then be able to go do your shit and still get back in time. You could spend the night out there, as many do. But sometimes you just don't have the time to spend and would like to be able tog et everyone back to safety if you need to log out.

You log in. You're an indie hunter, it's late afternoon. Want to go out and be your indie self but 10 minutes will not be enough time to do what you need to do and still get back inside. So you check the bars, nobody is around, you way your friends, nobody is around. You try to sell that stockpile of burnblood leaves but "come back at dawn." You log back out because fuck that noise.

If all closing the gates is doing is adding a fraction of RP flavor to roleplay around, I'd say the OOC negatives VASTLY outweigh the IC positives.

[Vositus]

Doesn't night-time last 10-20 minutes IRL?

You log in, you're a Byn Sergeant. You see that it's Early afternoon on Desert Survival day. You want to take your troopers and runners out for a bit of hunting but you KNOW you won't have enough time to get everyone together, get to the stable, doll out mount tickets and then be able to go do your shit and still get back in time. You could spend the night out there, as many do. But sometimes you just don't have the time to spend and would like to be able tog et everyone back to safety if you need to log out.

I dunno, man. I think there is a clan that has the ability to open and close the gates. A relationship with said clan could probably fix that.

[RogueGunslinger]

Or the gates could just, you know, stay open. That's a much easier solution. And I wouldn't' have to rely on a PC Templar being around.

[Yam]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

[nauta]

I've long wanted RSV's gates to remain open too.  I get there might be realism reasons for closing gates -- but then again, Luir's doesn't close its gates and its in the middle of gith county -- but what are the playibility positives for closing the gates?

[Majikal]

The gates closing adds a real element of danger to being trapped outside with whatever/whoever else is out there. In the DAYS OF THE FANG, our meals primarily consisted of night-time salters. Just sayin. Personally, I wish all outposts/villages/towns closed up at night to add that extra danger to being outside.


Shopkeepers however add no benefit by being closed other than realism, I'm all for 24 hour shops or only closed at before dawn shops.

[nauta]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

Yep. Not really buying the "danger of PvP" aspect. Spamming NWNWSESESWWWW will always be the ultimate raider escape.

[BadSkeelz]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

Red Storm and Yaroch both close their gates at night.

[Dresan]

I wouldn't mind seeing a happy medium.

For example, the gates remain closed but there should be some spot around wall street that might be climable with enough skill. It would then be up to the player to ensure they have a mount stabled outside the walls.
Clanned members of suitable rank should be able to pay the gate guard a fee to have them open the gates to allow them and company to pass. #ClanPrivilagesOP

[Yam]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

Yep. Not really buying the "danger of PvP" aspect. Spamming NWNWSESESWWWW will always be the ultimate raider escape.

I've run down people who have done this before. Not super difficult, especially if you have hunt and/or you poison them first.

[Armaddict]

Meh.

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

Red Storm and Yaroch both close their gates at night.

What about the farm? Cenyr, clay mines, luirs.... I'm not sure if they all stay open but the point is there's still places that you can run to. There will always be safe places to run to and the safest place to run to will probably not be the city. Once you start running you're already safe 99.9% of the time.

I wouldn't mind seeing a happy medium.

For example, the gates remain closed but there should be some spot around wall street that might be climable, thus making climb skill more useful. It would then be up to the player to ensure they have a mount stabled outside the walls.
Clanned members of suitable rank should be able to pay the gate guard a fee to have them open the gates to allow them and company to pass. #ClanPrivilagesOP

I'd be 100% for that for smugglers and criminals or whatnot, but it doesn't at all help your Byn Sergeant and his 10 runners.

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

Yep. Not really buying the "danger of PvP" aspect. Spamming NWNWSESESWWWW will always be the ultimate raider escape.

I've run down people who have done this before. Not super difficult, especially if you have hunt and/or you poison them first.

It's super difficult if the person running knows what the hell they're doing. It's very, very easy to mess with the hunt skill, and everyone has poison tablets these days.

[Yam]

Eh, I dunno. I have definitely run people up to the closed gates of Allanak before, been run into them myself, and have had to deal with the annoyance of them closing while leading a unit of Bynners. I can see arguments on either side. I certainly wouldn't mind trying out open gates.


Shops should be open 24/7. I don't think having them closed at night (or for some, during the day) adds anything to the game except some wasted time.

[RogueGunslinger]

What if the gates acted like clan-compounds gates for citizens, or if that too much then for certain clans liek AoD/Byn/GMH's and whatnot?

[Majikal]

What if the gates acted like clan-compounds gates for citizens, or if that too much then for certain clans liek AoD/Byn/GMH's and whatnot?

This does have some serious appeal....

[Vwest]

I'm fine with the gates closing.

I'm fine with the shops closing.

What I would like is if the NPCs merchants despawned when they're closed, to go do their virtual thing. It's never not jarring to walk up with a big bag of money, find them standing at the counter but refusing to do business... as they stare off into the void for thirty minutes. They'll even talk to you to tell you they're closed. There are scripts that spawn and despawn npcs at X/Y time of day, so it'd be nice if it was applied to shops that close for the evening.

[AdamBlue]

If there ever was a radical expansion of Allanak, it would be cool as fuck if they decided to add some out-of-city clan areas secreted away, in case Allanak was a bit much. I know the Byn has one, and for a while there was some serious potential with it, and I'm surprised it wasn't followed through with.
Major Clans should all have little 'safehouses'. Places they can gtfo to that are very bare-bones and boring, but can be used for whatever. You're a Fale Noble with a little safe house? Let's turn it into his personal spice-hut that later Fale can explore and find tons and tons of spice. You're a Salaar? Well, this new secret weapon I'm working on is even secret to my comrades inside the city! Ultra secret!

[Reiloth]

RGS: Though frustrated you may be, there's probably better more constructive ways of asking about this. I know that I personally read your post and thought "Yeah, I agree, but what an asshat."

In a desert world, desert setting in general, a 'nighttime market' is not uncommon, as the daytime heat drives most people to shade and indoors. It never made sense to me that people go home at night, or that markets don't open at night and close during the day. Having vendors vary in this respect (many vendors close during the day, open at night, some open during the day, close at night), rather than the norm being 'everyone is open during the day and closes at night' might add some dynamics to the static NPC marketplace.

Tuluk's gates never closed unless a threat was nearby, and I never saw it as being a problem. I'd rather have Templars capable of closing a gate, then needing to be sought out to open it.

[nauta]

I agree with keeping shops open at night but not with opening the gates. Night time is a prime time for raiding precisely because people can't just run into the safety of Allanak.

... except there's a little village a few rooms away from Allanak packed with soldiers and those gates don't close.

Red Storm and Yaroch both close their gates at night.

RSV does, but Yaroch doesn't, at least not any more.  (Which is strange now that I think about it, since I seem to recall at the festival hosted there two years ago the gates closing being sort of an annoying thing.)

Nevermind, apparently with Yaroch you can't enter when the gates are closed but you are allowed to leave.  How parochial!

[Malifaxis]

What if the gates acted like clan-compounds gates for citizens, or if that too much then for certain clans liek AoD/Byn/GMH's and whatnot?

This does have some serious appeal....

Optional option:
Have an NPC gate watchman outside under guard that you can buy your way in past.  
If you're a citizen 50 sid.
Non-citizen 200 sid.
Fuck elves.
Fuck witches.
Muls get in free with a complimentary collar.

The fact is that yes, it's a game, but there's also a very IC reason for those gates to shut, guys.  There are horrorbeetles and drovfuckers and deathspiders out there.  Night time has less sane traffic outside because most caravans/wagons are going to be leaving more often during the day.  Yes, it is hotter, and that keeps down the raiding scum in the wastes... also it gives better vantage to see the dangers of the wastes coming.  

Yes to optional coming in after buying your way in.
No to being able to leave the gates at night.  I could see them perhaps opening it up for someone outside (keeping the citizens safe... living citizens = more taxes) but not opening it up for Amos the GrebWitch who wants to go out before dawn and spampractice Create Sex Slave.

[lostinspace]

I'm all for paying to get in, be it official, a corrupt unit of guardsmen at the west gate, or some sort of token or pass you pay an expensive one time fee for. Also, pretty sure Yaroch closes it's gates at night still.

[Vositus]

Or the gates could just, you know, stay open. That's a much easier solution. And I wouldn't' have to rely on a PC Templar being around.

Last thing because I'm starting to come around to the idea... Especially the bribing gate guards idea.

There are non-Templar PCs with the ability to open and close city gates. (Riding an IC info line here, methinks)

[Gazarsgo]

I think it would be way better to have some shops that are only open in the day and some that are only open at night.

Despawning is a cool first step, but I'd rather merchants had different routines where they walked to the bank and then an apartment and then actually slept.  I treat merchants as largely 'out-of-bounds' for shenanigans simply because their default mode is a permanent state of high vigilance.

I think you should be able to ask the guards (via talk guard keywords, talk guard hello, talk guard open gates, talk guard close gates) to let you OUT at night but not in, and it'd be awesome if it depended on whether you were told the right keyword to use from the Templarate.

[Norcal]

Tuluk did not shut its gates at night.  Luirs does not.

If you want to shut the gates then give the option for players to purchase a "gate token" that they can wear.  If you have the token, the gates open for you at  night.  Otherwise...you are either in or out.

Shops staying open I am not sure on. Maybe till late at night.

[RogueGunslinger]

RGS: Though frustrated you may be, there's probably better more constructive ways of asking about this. I know that I personally read your post and thought "Yeah, I agree, but what an asshat."

Yeah I thought as much after I made the OP. It's just hard to put up with all these annoyances when I know there's a great game underneath. Every tiem I encounter the slightest bit of "Oh you want to play, well, too bad you get to wait around instead!" I just want to stop playing. It's not worth forcing coal down my throat at the hopes I'll shit out a diamond when all circumstances are perfect.

[Reiloth]

RGS: Though frustrated you may be, there's probably better more constructive ways of asking about this. I know that I personally read your post and thought "Yeah, I agree, but what an asshat."

Yeah I thought as much after I made the OP. It's just hard to put up with all these annoyances when I know there's a great game underneath. Every tiem I encounter the slightest bit of "Oh you want to play, well, too bad you get to wait around instead!" I just want to stop playing. It's not worth forcing coal down my throat at the hopes I'll shit out a diamond when all circumstances are perfect.

I totally know your feel. Especially when you play a game that gets certain things right that Armageddon, for one reason or another, just gets horribly wrong. But...Ain't no game like Armageddon out there, so it keeps us coming back! And things have VASTLY IMPROVED over the years. All those little code quirks do get fixed. So I think posing things in a constructive way that might get a Staffer interested in working on it, is the best way to go.

Remember when you couldn't quit outside of a gate? That changed, IIRC, because someone mentioned it passingly on the GDB at some point. The list is quite large, but when you take a breath and pose things like 'Wouldn't it be nice if...' instead of 'FIX THE GODDAMN SOMETHING OR OTHER', you get more traction I think.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, I already made that "constructive" post years ago(maybe just a year ago?). I'd say I was switching up tactics but really I was being an ass because I was upset. Sorry everyone. 

[BadSkeelz]

Sometimes cursing is just what you need to open a gate at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCQ3P2_qb7M

[Lizzie]

Used to be there was no quit-safe room right outside the gates. Now there is. If you need to log out and you -just- missed the gate, you can log out. You can ALSO now use quit-ooc, which didn't used to exist at all, to quit out if you're unexpectedly needed to do so, and aren't anywhere near a quit-safe room.

Because of these relatively new changes, I don't see why it should be important at all that the gates close at night and open in the morning.

I do, however, wish the shops that do close, would stay open just a little longer OR open a little earlier. That single 10-minute difference, to me, would make a huge difference.

[RogueGunslinger]

Used to be there was no quit-safe room right outside the gates. Now there is. If you need to log out and you -just- missed the gate, you can log out. You can ALSO now use quit-ooc, which didn't used to exist at all, to quit out if you're unexpectedly needed to do so, and aren't anywhere near a quit-safe room.

Doesn't have much to do with being able to quit the game. It has to do with not wanting to put your character in situations where you might end up leaving your runners out in the middle of the desert, so you just take the day off instead and don't even bother to bring them anywhere. There's a reason why every RPT tries to start at dawn. Because it usually takes half an hour just to get everyone organized and to the gates. I'm saying we'd have more people willing to start their RPT's, or hunting missions or whatever, whenever is most convenient if there was easy access into and out of the city at night. Instead we force people to wait, and wait, and wait for dawn to come.

It has to do with not wanting to take your indie out knowing you'll just be stuck for the remaining 30 minutes sitting outside the gates with nothing to see but "sand swirls about you". There would be a lot more interaction if that poor bastard could just get to a tavern.

I can't be the only person who logs in with an indie(usually off peak), checks the time, see's it's past noon, and decides to just log back out again... Or worse, see that's it's past noon and then spam-rides outside, spam-kills a mob, spam-skins it, makes a couple quick emotes, then spam-gathers everything then speed-rides their way back into the city.

Nobody is going to want to sit around watching nothing just for their hunger and thirst timers to start counting down and their food to decay in their bags.

[Erythil]

I don't mind the gates closing.  I think it makes the world feel a little more alive and gives you something to plan around.  It may not be condusive to casual play, but we have quit ooc for those emergency log situations.

The shopkeepers not being open at night is kind of more annoying than it is immersive to me, though, but it's not something I care about enough to want to make it a staff priority, I'd rather see new stuff instead.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I second (or eighth by this point maybe) RGS. Finding out it's highsun and logging out with the intention of logging back in in an hour sucks. Can confirm.

[valeria]

I like that the gates close, but I wouldn't mind if people could flash their merchant's token/flash some kind of gate token/and-or bribe their way in after dark.

I don't mind that the shops close, but I would like it if they actually packed up their wares and went somewhere else.  I'd like to see the time shorter.  I'd also like to see different shops with different schedules.

[Delirium]

I don't mind that the shops close, but I would like it if they actually packed up their wares and went somewhere else.  I'd like to see the time shorter.  I'd also like to see different shops with different schedules.

Shops closing at night is the most jarring part of this (admittedly annoying) piece of code.

In this brutally hot desert world, taking a siesta from late morning to early afternoon would make more sense.

It would also be less annoying from a playability standpoint, as PCs are by and large busiest during the day and only have the evenings free.

The second most jarring is that they don't actually close up shop; a simple change of long description would help.

This would alert PCs that the merchant is closed for business and provide more IC continuity.

i.e., The merchant stands here, hawking his wares. vs The merchant lazes around, taking a nap.

[Molten Heart]

.

[nauta]

There are ways into Allanak at night.

I wish you could crawl through those sewer pipes.  (If you actually can crawl through those sewer pipes and you'alls been bogarting the syntax, you're going to have a very upset nauta.)

[RogueGunslinger]

There are ways into Allanak at night.

Doesn't help the Byn sergeant... or 90% of the player population, for that matter.

[Yam]

There are ways into Allanak at night.

I wish you could crawl through those sewer pipes.  (If you actually can crawl through those sewer pipes and you'alls been bogarting the syntax, you're going to have a very upset nauta.)

drink pipe

[nauta]

There are ways into Allanak at night.

Doesn't help the Byn sergeant... or 90% of the player population, for that matter.

Oh, yeah, sorry -- meant that sentence to go with the pipes thing -- I'm 300% behind having the gates open 24/7.

[Armaddict]

Can we remove storms from the game please?

I dislike inconvenience in roleplay and this keeps me from following my plan 100% of the time that it happens.

On a more serious note:
I find the gates closing to be fine.  I plan my characters' days around it.  When something occurs that keeps me from making it, it is indeed a bad circumstance that makes sense for my character to be upset about, and I roleplay it as such.  I make a camp.  I search for another solution.  I worry about water.  I check up on my mount, and wonder if there are baddies nearby.  Sometimes, I use the extra five minutes to quickly get some meat before hunkering down to cook it overnight while watching for spiders.

But I guess you could also just log out and complain about your plan instead of continuing to play the character.  That's also an option.

[RogueGunslinger]

We get it Armaddict, you're a paragon of roleplaying. You never let ooc issues with the game get to you, and anything people have a problem with you find it really easy to roleplay around. Good for you.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Desertman]

Nah, I like it how it is. It creates a sense of urgency that wouldn't otherwise be there.

[Armaddict]

We get it Armaddict, you're a paragon of roleplaying. You never let ooc issues with the game get to you, and anything people have a problem with you find it really easy to roleplay around. Good for you.

If that's what you get out of what was said, that's well and good on you, I'll just feel all inflated that apparently I'm better than -I- thought I was!  But for that to be what you get out of it, you kind of insist on missing what the entire point of me typing all of it out was, which was that you're not seeing the forest for the trees and you're letting inconvenience in an RPI remove your reason to roleplay rather than augment it.  If everything was going perfectly all the time for your character, we'd be in a pretty bland RPI.  Hell...sit there and mutter at the gates or contact your buddy and bitch about it, if that's what they'd do.

I'm far from a paragon of roleplaying.  But I also don't expect 100% of everything to be easy and fun in an RPI based around hardship, either.  The gates closed on you.  Big deal, you were outside the gates doing shit anyway.  So keep doing shit outside the gates, keep finding things to do the same way as you do any other time instead of viewing this as some terrible code injustice.

[Miradus]

I can play around the gates being open or closed.

When I log on and I can't see because the sand swirls all around me, I generally log out and either come back in thirty minutes or find something else to do with my free time.

And sometimes, Armageddon, you lose out to Don't Starve.

[Armaddict]

I can play around the gates being open or closed.

When I log on and I can't see because the sand swirls all around me, I generally log out and either come back in thirty minutes or find something else to do with my free time.

And sometimes, Armageddon, you lose out to Don't Starve.

If I quit out in the wild and this is the case, then yeah...there's not a lot you can do about it.  Can't do anything when you can't see.

But in the case you're close to civilization, there's generally other things I can do, whether they be around other PC's or not.  You have said you like being in the north, I assume this is likely a very different feeling for you since there's a lot less things to do around the village that isn't based around...things -outside- the village.  So I don't think your scenario applies here.

[nauta]

I think my argument for a case to be made for leaving them open would be to appeal to the loss of interaction that is had.  It's not a lot, but it's why I'd want RSV gates to remain open: we don't get that many people inside the village to begin with.  So, and I think this would apply to Allanak, I'd rather spend those 30 minutes with other PCs interacting, rather than idling at the gates.

[Armaddict]

...sooo...wouldn't it be just as good to use 3 of those 10 minutes at dusk to continue to Red Storm where they need the interaction?

Edit:  That's not exactly the point I was pushing for.  The point I'm pushing for is that wanting interaction and such is well and good, but viewing inconveniences to your character as faulty or outdated code that needs to be removed is not exactly a good line of approach either.  If we're just playing this game to find all the inconveniences that annoy us and ask that we remove them, we ain't exactly setting ourselves up to enjoy anything about the game in the first place.  The point of my first post was not 'F U, keep the gates closed because open gates r dum!', it's that we are following a startlingly real trend of making demands that the game world and code change in order to suit our whims and try to turn an RPI into non-stop action, excitement, entertainment, and badassity.

I think this is an example of that.  Someone got caught outside the gates...probably a relatively infrequent occurrence for them...and it's now tumulted into a discussion of how closing gates at dusk is limiting roleplay.  That's...a little hyperbolic, considering that said gates closing is also -adding- content to roleplay for those who have to worry about them and plan around them.

Edit again:  I mean...sure, this may get your average joe hunter to the bar at dusk.  But does it help the raider role, who can no longer base their survival in the wilds around the flood of activity at dawn, and the trickle in til dusk?  Does it help the soldier, who relies on the gates being closed to have a window of time to look for that guy who ran from you in the night streets?  You immediately jump to it severely limiting interaction, but it's adding a large influence to the game.  Open the gates or close them, I don't think this will have some -profound- impact on anything.  But I think the approach used to come to this suggestion is neither new nor exactly sound in motivation and consideration for what's gained and lost.

I think if the gates closing at dusk is causing this large of a problem for you, you might either make your Byn outings more prepped for an overnight stay and survival training and a camping in the dangerous wilds scene, or edit your routine to get there earlier.  Shit will happen that will make you miss it, but that's...not a fault in the game's plan.  That's part of it.

[RogueGunslinger]

It's not faulty or outdated, and it make sense ICly. It can make sense ICly the other way as well.

My entire point is that it's a shitty situation OOCly regardless of how you roleplay it. So why not make it less of a shitty situation, so that people are more inclined to do all that roleplaying.

Edit: All these suggestions you're giving is shit I already do. Working around a problem doens't mean the problem doesn't exist. Raiders are so rare catering to them above everyone else seem ridiculous. The OOC benefits FAR outweigh the IC losses.

[Armaddict]

Raiders are indeed rare.  So is getting stuck outside the gates unless you're purposely playing with it and trying to stretch time.

I brought up raiders specifically because we complain about there being not enough of them, but here you are casually suggesting a change that would make things even more difficult for them.  Not because closed gates fuck people, but because it makes a schedule based on IC things rather than people's OOC whims about when to do things.

If IC circumstance makes you late for the gates, I kinda feel like that's exactly the scenario I'm talking about where there's so much more to it than 'SHIT, I'M NOT WHERE I WANTED TO BE, LOG OUT.'

Are you getting caught outside the gates over and over, RGS?  Is this truly removing content from the game?  Is this truly something so unjust?  I think it's not a big deal, that you've made it a much bigger argument about interaction than it actually is, and you're just kinda sticking to your guns at this point despite knowing it's not truly that big of a deal.  The only reason -I'm- here is to address the knee-jerk 'Change the game!' reaction that is becoming so prevalent, complete with 'or I'll leave/not play as much/the game will suffer terribly!'

[Jihelu]

You can criticize an idea without criticizing a person Arm. I don't personally care for the change if it does stay close or not. I do think it makes more sense in a desert society to keep the gates closed. Or maybe I'm just 'mad' that I'm stuck outside all the time?

[RogueGunslinger]

Raiders are indeed rare.  So is getting stuck outside the gates unless you're purposely playing with it and trying to stretch time.

Are you getting caught outside the gates over and over, RGS?

You seem to still be missing the point. The point isn't that people are getting stuck inside or outside the gates. The point is people avoid playing because they don't want to get stuck inside or outside the gates, or have tavern-sitting as the only decent roleplay interaction.

I can list off a few reasons why it's more realistic to keep access into and out of a city in the desert at night. The only argument with any weight people seem to have against the idea is that it's makes it harder on raiders... Even though you can ALREADY run off to multiple nearby places if you want to escape a raider.

[Armaddict]

You can criticize an idea without criticizing a person Arm. I don't personally care for the change if it does stay close or not. I do think it makes more sense in a desert society to keep the gates closed. Or maybe I'm just 'mad' that I'm stuck outside all the time?

I'm sorry you read it that way.

But I don't really know how to reiterate, particularly with it being confirmed, that this suggestion is less based around it being good for the game and more around the frustration of things not turning out the way they wanted it.

I started off trying to be helpful with other options and an urge to see it in a different light, but that turned into me being a paragon of roleplay, so I elaborated on why, exactly, the process of this thread as far as dictating change doesn't sit well with me.

[RogueGunslinger]

The only reason -I'm- here is to address the knee-jerk 'Change the game!' reaction that is becoming so prevalent, complete with 'or I'll leave/not play as much/the game will suffer terribly!'

So the only reason you're here is to be contrary to changes to the game? It's not knee-jerk, and it's not some threat of leaving the game. It's a matter of fact that people log out when they see night time is closing in... Especially so if they have limited time to play.

[Jihelu]

We should all just be friends or something idk.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Armaddict]

The point is people avoid playing because they don't want to get stuck inside or outside the gates, or have tavern-sitting as the only decent roleplay interaction.

You avoid playing because of the gates?  Or you log out when you get stuck outside?  Those are two very different things.

I mean, if you stop logging into the game because gates close at dusk, I don't know what to say.  Nor do I see how keeping gates open changes barsitting aside from letting you get from outside the gates to the bar at dusk.

I didn't miss the point.  You've elaborated on it many times.  If you get stuck outside, you just want to log out.  That's been stated explicitly and implicitly, but because the change was challenged, you've drawn it out to a much...more monumental effect than it really is.  Which is in turn making me say I'm not going to say we should change it just because you started being louder about it.  Your reasoning still doesn't resonate with me.  I still think it's blown out of proportion.  And I still think it's based on your original post's tone, which is frustration, despite it not actually happening that much, making it one of those things that is indeed a frustrating consequence...but one that is generally okay for what it also provides, which is a reliable IC schedule for the masses and a daily routine-setter.

The only reason -I'm- here is to address the knee-jerk 'Change the game!' reaction that is becoming so prevalent, complete with 'or I'll leave/not play as much/the game will suffer terribly!'

So the only reason you're here is to be contrary to changes to the game? It's not knee-jerk, and it's not some threat of leaving the game. It's a matter of fact that people log out when they see night time is closing in... Especially so if they have limited time to play.

That's not what I said at all, dude.  You're getting worked up over nothing, and now just leaving out important details on what I'm saying in order to come at my character.  I said your motivation was your frustration, which you have confirmed, not something that actually improves the game.  If they have limited time to play, they can log out outside the gates, safely, regardless of class.  That's not a factor.

I didn't say you threatened to leave the game.  I lumped 'logging out' as part of the same 'you'll have less players' addendum to the change in order to increase its weight.  But in the end, the argument remains as 'Because I wanted to be doing something else and mistimed my arrival'.  Which was then expounded into 'to promote interaction', but I am failing to see this as enough of a commonplace thing that it is actually limiting roleplay or the game.

[Jihelu]

Pros:
1: Allowing people to have a more flexible schedule and letting clans get out more, then again most aren't supposed to be out of the city anyway so I guess it allows you to sneak out more often?
2: I guess it's kinda more realistic? Of course if situations arise where monsters are attacking at night, which is kinda weird, then there would be ic reason to close it, but then again even during the day time they just close the gates when monsters pop up.
3: Idk

Cons:
1: I guess the raider issue is one. I don't see it making it impossible for raiders but harder. Did people actually gank people outside gates at night?
2: Idk

[RogueGunslinger]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Arm. I didn't have any intention of attacking your character(I don't think I did?), and I'm not arguing out of frustration at all and I'm not getting worked up. The frustration was over after the first post in this thread. I'm just here, arguing on the GDB like I always do.

[Armaddict]

What are the pros and cons of having the gates open vs closed?

I can't think of many compelling reasons not to have the gates open at night other than that's the way it's always been.

That's why it's frustrating.  I've said several times that the gates being opened or closed is not really that big of a deal, though I do see it as an unnecessary change that does indeed affect things other than the guy stuck outside.  Not monumentally...but it's not really a monumental problem either.  As a rule, as a skeptic, I view the burden of persuasion on the instigator of change, not on the defender of the current state.  I do not find the current line of persuasion on it very sound, which means...I challenge it.  I'm sorry that gets people -really worked up- over it.  But when minor changes can impact a lot more than just the immediate idea at hand, I prefer conservatism until I get persuaded.  That's...the nature of persuasion.

My pro to the gates opening and closing every day is that it limits me in no way unless I make a mistake and arrive late.  In the meantime, it adds a daily routine to the life of the city dweller who also works outside, which affects both people in the city and people from outside the city.

My con is that sometimes you get caught out there and that makes some people decide they'd rather log out than wait, because they can no longer get in to go about their business and must find new business for outside the gates, whether that be idling, moving on to a place with no closing gates, or milking the time before night actually falls (Edit:  And this is not snarky, but trying to demonstrate that this is a much larger con for some players than others.)

[Reiloth]

I agree the gates should be openable without PC intervention (Templars). If there was some code for offering money to soldiers to open it, or something like this, sure. But i'd sooner see the gates just be open. The fewer opportunities for draconian code to force people to log out or structure their interaction/playing the game, the better. It would be one thing if the gates closed, and you could get them open via bribery, but this is just an arbitrary "The gates close at night" just as "The market closes at night". It's just the way things are, not the way they should/need to be.

I find the raider argument flimsy, as well as any IC justification for the gates being closed. Many cities are 24 hours, especially in a place as hot as Zalanthas. I think this is a modern assertion of the 9-5 schedule, where people don't go shopping at 9PM. You will find around the world, say in Vietnam or Thailand, that entire cities are 24 hours, where massive markets pop up only in the evening, when it's cooled off.

If Allanak's gates functioned like Tuluk (Stay open unless threat is nearby, or Templar closes it), i'd be happy with it.

[Armaddict]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Arm. I didn't have any intention of attacking your character(I don't think I did?), and I'm not arguing out of frustration at all and I'm not getting worked up. The frustration was over after the first post in this thread. I'm just here, arguing on the GDB like I always do.

Then we're victims of text.  I thought you were getting worked up, which was making me get more worked up because I'm really -not- that passionate about some gates.  I just viewed it as frivolous change, is all, which can often change things...unexpectedly.  I apologize.

(As far as the attack on character, that's what I felt the 'You're only here to prevent change' was.  But in rereading...again, victim of text.)

[Armaddict]

Having played many raiders, and having seen plenty of posts talking about how hard it is being a raider...I kind of disagree that it's as flimsy as you say, particularly when we seem to want more of them.

However.  The idea of gates opening without PC interaction is fine...but I don't think it should be immediate, either.  Truth be told, there's something to inconvenience here which is providing consequence that is not so severe.  It's been...talked to a point of severity, but sometimes inconvenience is the middle ground between 'no consequence' and 'dire consequence'.

So as far as -this- discussion, are the gates worth having consequences over?  I find both pros and cons to be...minor, of little gain and little loss on average, but affecting some roles more drastically than others.

As far as the motivation behind it which was where I got focused on, I was getting caught up in the argument of 'Is inconvenience actually something we should be getting rid of in an RPI that emphasizes consequences?'

[Reiloth]

Eh, i've seen incredibly successful raiders in Tuluk, and the gates are always open.

Well, except for now. Now, they are closed 

[Malifaxis]

Eh, i've seen incredibly successful raiders in Tuluk, and the gates are always open.

Well, except for now. Now, they are closed 

TOO SOON REILOTH!!!

[Reiloth]

Eh, i've seen incredibly successful raiders in Tuluk, and the gates are always open.

Well, except for now. Now, they are closed 

TOO SOON REILOTH!!!

[Majikal]

The sadness in this is that apparently I'll never get to catch a RogueGunSlinger pc outside with the gates closed to viciously murder his ass....

However, I get to watch him get rekt in Overwatch all the time which is almost as satisfying.

[nauta]

-When shops are closed, the merchant's long description will be updated to indicate so

Just FYI, one of the suggestions in this thread just got implemented.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg948620.html#msg948620

(And just checked and it looks like Delirium wins the thread!)

I don't mind that the shops close, but I would like it if they actually packed up their wares and went somewhere else.  I'd like to see the time shorter.  I'd also like to see different shops with different schedules.

Shops closing at night is the most jarring part of this (admittedly annoying) piece of code.

In this brutally hot desert world, taking a siesta from late morning to early afternoon would make more sense.

It would also be less annoying from a playability standpoint, as PCs are by and large busiest during the day and only have the evenings free.

The second most jarring is that they don't actually close up shop; a simple change of long description would help.

This would alert PCs that the merchant is closed for business and provide more IC continuity.

i.e., The merchant stands here, hawking his wares. vs The merchant lazes around, taking a nap.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I saw that. Very comforting to note thatvthe staff are listening.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's awesome, thanks staff.

[Inks]

Shops being open : Yes.

Please do not open gates at night. Look hemote is bad enough.