Author Topic: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain  (Read 27776 times)

Majikal

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2016, 06:22:52 PM »
I can very much attest that training in combat clans is much more effective now with the changes. Addressing what seems to be the real issue people seem to have which is progressing combat skills.
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Yam

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2016, 06:23:56 PM »
You might want to double check that some of these assumptions aren't out of date.

I've played a couple of combat oriented PCs pretty extensively after the updates. I think they were a step in the right direction but as of now I don't think it was enough. I'm also a student and I have quite a bit of time to spend on the game grinding if I feel like it. I don't think the Nergal's code change significantly altered the state of combat progression.

This is developing into an extension of http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49514.150.html, almost point for point.

This topic tends to crop up every year, yes.

Narf

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2016, 06:26:10 PM »
I don't think the Nergal's code change significantly altered the state of combat progression.


It very much did for me. It was like night and day, but I suppose that's just an anecdotal experience.

650Booger

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2016, 06:27:43 PM »
new player perspective, but having played MMOs for ages:
if you're a casual player, you should expect to advance at a casual pace.  adjust your RP accordingly.  
I liked the 'I used to do this, but now I do this' explanation for why I would suck at my chosen profession at first.
I would love to not be able to see skill levels.
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Miradus

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2016, 06:28:46 PM »
Were I in charge (I'm not), I would not take anecdotal evidence like that to try and balance skill gains.

I'd take a snapshot of the player database at any given time and list out how many warriors we have right now and then list how many of those are at master and what their playtimes are. I'd also annotate on that chart whether they are clanned or unclanned.

I'd love to see that sort of info published here, not just for warriors but for everything. I'm a data fanatic though. Data, data, data. Can't make bricks without clay.

As for pure power though, the warriors I have who made it up to journeyman started feeling pretty awesome. It wasn't one particular skill it was the aggregate of shield, parry, and weaponskill. Plus the time invested in buying decent armor and learning bash high enough not to fall on my face during the fight. Seeing "master" or getting a new, advanced weaponskill would have been cool, but I didn't feel gimped without it.

Aside from warrior, I think pickpockets, assassins, and burglars have it way worse. As a warrior I can go use my warrior skills five minutes after I type "enter arch". As a stealthy character I have to master my skills in secret before I ever even CONSIDER using them in public. So you may be a pickpocket who will never pick a player's pocket until seven days played.

Armaddict

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2016, 06:35:04 PM »
Were I in charge (I'm not), I would not take anecdotal evidence like that to try and balance skill gains.

I'd take a snapshot of the player database at any given time and list out how many warriors we have right now and then list how many of those are at master and what their playtimes are. I'd also annotate on that chart whether they are clanned or unclanned.

I'd love to see that sort of info published here, not just for warriors but for everything. I'm a data fanatic though. Data, data, data. Can't make bricks without clay.

As for pure power though, the warriors I have who made it up to journeyman started feeling pretty awesome. It wasn't one particular skill it was the aggregate of shield, parry, and weaponskill. Plus the time invested in buying decent armor and learning bash high enough not to fall on my face during the fight. Seeing "master" or getting a new, advanced weaponskill would have been cool, but I didn't feel gimped without it.

Aside from warrior, I think pickpockets, assassins, and burglars have it way worse. As a warrior I can go use my warrior skills five minutes after I type "enter arch". As a stealthy character I have to master my skills in secret before I ever even CONSIDER using them in public. So you may be a pickpocket who will never pick a player's pocket until seven days played.

This is the exact risk aversion I'm talking about; 'I can't do things until I never fail'.  And then people complain about stagnation.  Pheh!

Quote
This topic tends to crop up every year, yes.

Well.  Not every year.  It started being consistent a couple years after the skill visibility.  It's gotten more and more prevalent.  It's almost like...*gasp* the concerns about skill visibility were well founded!  I think your response here is to say that 'If it's still coming up, it's still a problem', but if that's the case we shouldn't have mages anymore.

She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Yam

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2016, 06:43:00 PM »
It came up regularly before skill levels were made visible too. Combat skill progression certainly isn't in line with any of the other skills which you can expect to master in at most 10-20 days played of frequent use.

Miradus

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2016, 06:53:41 PM »
This is the exact risk aversion I'm talking about; 'I can't do things until I never fail'.  And then people complain about stagnation.  Pheh!



What would the consequences of failing steal on a player be, inside the city? Or outside for that matter?

An NPC is going to shout "Thief thief" and run away and that's the end of it. A player is either going to kill me, or worse, run back to the Gaj and end all future roleplay potential I might have with that character.

I guess you could have a city elf pickpocket who says, "Yeah, I'm a thief, and I'll rob you blind if you don't watch me constantly. What of it?" In fact, that might be a lot of fun. But thus far even being suspected as being a thief is not a lot of fun. The only thing people like less than a half-elf is a new character whose guild they haven't yet figured out. Walk into the Gaj as a known thief on a crowded evening and watch how fast those backpacks get locked and the watchful eye hemotes start flying.

I'd happily embrace that novelty if I hadn't watched several times as templars arbitrarily (or what looked arbitrary to me as an outsider) had people's heads ripped off in the street.


Lizzie

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2016, 06:55:48 PM »
Can we look at increasing the rate at which skills increase in Armageddon? Especially weapon and certain combat skills (dual wield and two handed).

Our playerbase is aging. Many of us started playing Armageddon in our late teens or early twenties when spending 5 hours a day on a text-based roleplaying game (or hack and slash if you started way back then) was doable. Now most of us have careers, kids, and obligations that keep us from spending as much timestaring at text scroll. It's extremely difficult to play Armageddon casually both because characters need to be present to maintain IC relationships and because characters take a long, long, long time to skill up.

Combat skills are especially onerous. It isn't unusual to spend an IC year in the T'zai Byn sparring for an hour each and every day and come out with apprentice weapon/combat skills. It currently takes something on the order of 10 days played to get to journeymanish level combat skills. That's absolutely ludicrous. Ten days is 240 hours, 6 weeks of a full time job, or $3600 at $15 an hour.

As it stands Armageddon has some of the highest ability disparity between characters with different playtimes. Joe Grebber who can manage to play for 5 hours a day and fight hawks will almost always have a significant combat advantage over Bob Byn Sergeant who can only play 3 hours a day.  I think this can be alleviated somewhat by fiddling with the way skills - especially combat skills - increase. It has always been something thrown about, but I think it's time we seriously consider it, because right now the opportunity cost to get a journeyman weapon skill has a low end of $3600... and that's insane.

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet - but your math is wrong by a whole lot.

Ten days is 240 consecutive hours, during which only 1/3 is spent working, if you're a full-time employee (and even then - most full-time employees work only 37.5 hours and in some cases, only 35 hours). Approximately 1/3 is spent sleeping. And the other third is spent doing anything other than work or sleep. In addition, of those 3 hours per day you referred to in your post, the average Bynner can only attempt to skill up a relatively small percentage of that three hours, because of skill timers. So that 10 days played is really only MAYBE 2-3 day's played of skillups. If he's doing it right, the rest of the time is being spent roleplaying.

If your average Bynner is spending every minute of that 10 days played in the sparring ring, then hopefully someone will have already reported him to staff for ignoring the game world in exchange for twinkery.

Also, if you increase skill gain, then everyone who DOES have time to spend working the skill timers efficiently, will STILL be ahead of everyone who doesn't have time to work the skill timers efficiently.

The game isn't balanced. It was never designed to be balanced. It doesn't favor casual players. But if this were a MUSH that had no coded skills of any kind, and relied 100% on roleplay, it STILL wouldn't favor casual players. Someone who can't devote a dozen or two hours every week, consistently, will always be codedly behind someone who devotes 40 hours a week consistently. This is true with everything. Someone who practices guitar faithfully every day, will have stronger calluses on their fingertips than someone who practices once a week.

That's just how it works, when you're dealing with "time spent doing something."
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Lizzie

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2016, 06:57:23 PM »
new player perspective, but having played MMOs for ages:
if you're a casual player, you should expect to advance at a casual pace.  adjust your RP accordingly.  
I liked the 'I used to do this, but now I do this' explanation for why I would suck at my chosen profession at first.
I would love to not be able to see skill levels.

Bingo.
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Armaddict

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2016, 06:57:41 PM »
It came up regularly before skill levels were made visible too. Combat skill progression certainly isn't in line with any of the other skills which you can expect to master in at most 10-20 days played of frequent use.

Uhm.  No?  It did not, at least not with any sort of consistency, nor with weight behind it.  I've actually been searching for couple hours prior to making that outright claim.  Thusfar, most of what i'm seeing is the want for everyone to get weapon skills, for weapon skills to be more diverse, and for weapon skills to be teachable to someone without them, and things of that nature.  The first post I can see of this nature is 2012 by Sunburned.

It really is a word after a skill name you're irritated about.  Not even what you can do with it, or without it.  Just what it says.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Armaddict

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2016, 07:00:57 PM »
Quote
I'd happily embrace that novelty if I hadn't watched several times as templars arbitrarily (or what looked arbitrary to me as an outsider) had people's heads ripped off in the street.

It's funny, because I think by -most- accounts, our templars have been pretty tame for awhile.  (This is not a complaint, mind you.)

It's also worth noting that you, with your vantage point, have not seen the elven pickpockets that I've seen that became plagues on the city by 3 or 4 days of playing time, precisely because they were willing to risk getting caught for moments of opportune scores.

I had a militia soldier once who used to catch and release one who got the -code- never caught, but players 'knew it was him' (No, he really didn't hide it well).  Asserting that journeyman anything is useless is based on a platform of requiring 100% success with minimal risk.  Hence the term of risk aversion.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Majikal

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2016, 07:03:35 PM »
The problem was back in the day twinks were running around thinking they were badass's (myself included) and never actually knew we were still rocking what is now apprentice/jman combat skills.

The veil has been lifted, now you realize that your 40days played badass only has jman chopping and you think ermagerd I am teh sucks. 40 days played badass now is still the same 40 days played badass of the past (prob better actually cause you know the code more than you did back then), just NOW you get to see you can be more badass than you are currently.

Chillax and play ur rolez scrubs. Casuals play casually, non casuals, play non casually, both can MCB.
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Yam

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2016, 07:09:42 PM »
Can we look at increasing the rate at which skills increase in Armageddon? Especially weapon and certain combat skills (dual wield and two handed).

Our playerbase is aging. Many of us started playing Armageddon in our late teens or early twenties when spending 5 hours a day on a text-based roleplaying game (or hack and slash if you started way back then) was doable. Now most of us have careers, kids, and obligations that keep us from spending as much timestaring at text scroll. It's extremely difficult to play Armageddon casually both because characters need to be present to maintain IC relationships and because characters take a long, long, long time to skill up.

Combat skills are especially onerous. It isn't unusual to spend an IC year in the T'zai Byn sparring for an hour each and every day and come out with apprentice weapon/combat skills. It currently takes something on the order of 10 days played to get to journeymanish level combat skills. That's absolutely ludicrous. Ten days is 240 hours, 6 weeks of a full time job, or $3600 at $15 an hour.

As it stands Armageddon has some of the highest ability disparity between characters with different playtimes. Joe Grebber who can manage to play for 5 hours a day and fight hawks will almost always have a significant combat advantage over Bob Byn Sergeant who can only play 3 hours a day.  I think this can be alleviated somewhat by fiddling with the way skills - especially combat skills - increase. It has always been something thrown about, but I think it's time we seriously consider it, because right now the opportunity cost to get a journeyman weapon skill has a low end of $3600... and that's insane.

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet - but your math is wrong by a whole lot.

Ten days is 240 consecutive hours, during which only 1/3 is spent working, if you're a full-time employee (and even then - most full-time employees work only 37.5 hours and in some cases, only 35 hours). Approximately 1/3 is spent sleeping.

I think you misunderstood me. Ten days of playtime is 240 hours, which hopefully isn't accrued consecutively.

It came up regularly before skill levels were made visible too. Combat skill progression certainly isn't in line with any of the other skills which you can expect to master in at most 10-20 days played of frequent use.
It really is a word after a skill name you're irritated about.  Not even what you can do with it, or without it.  Just what it says.

I'm not really irritated about anything here (except maybe the way you're arguing this). I don't have any issues skilling up combat PCs. I can play in the background at my work, wait around to find as many buff sparring partners as I want, and go on as many extended hunting trips as I want to find the really meaty mobs with lots of agility and defense. The current state of combat progression is great for players like me because I can achieve a nearly insurmountable advantage over people who can only play for an hour or two a few days a week.

The fact is that people have dropped the game because they can't get any sense of progression and feel like they can't keep up if they don't put in a ton of hours. I don't think it matters whether or not that feeling is justified. I just want to see more people come back to the game and more new players retained. I think that will happen if we ease up on the combat skill grind.

Miradus

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2016, 07:16:09 PM »

It's funny, because I think by -most- accounts, our templars have been pretty tame for awhile.  (This is not a complaint, mind you.)

It's also worth noting that you, with your vantage point, have not seen the elven pickpockets that I've seen that became plagues on the city by 3 or 4 days of playing time, precisely because they were willing to risk getting caught for moments of opportune scores.

I had a militia soldier once who used to catch and release one who got the -code- never caught, but players 'knew it was him' (No, he really didn't hide it well).  Asserting that journeyman anything is useless is based on a platform of requiring 100% success with minimal risk.  Hence the term of risk aversion.

That would actually be pretty cool to see. From my limited time in Allanak, it's way too safe and tame for the setting. I get in more problems in Red Storm than I do in Allanak.

I typically gauge success by real-world conditions rather than the words on the skillsheet. Not that I still don't spam "skills" every 30 seconds while playing because I'm interested to see when stuff changes, but if I'm mostly not failing at charge or trample when I hit journeyman or I can fight without falling off my mount then I'm happy as a clam.

My life expectancy with any character is not great. It's always "I wonder how far east these salt flats go" or "I wonder what's in that hole in the cliff wall" or "#Session Died" and come back without a character to play.


Jingo

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2016, 07:19:03 PM »
I'm another one of those guys that can play 5 hours a day if I want to. The thing is that I don't want to.

I hate the grind and I resent that I have to compete with players that are willing to engage the grind to play a powerful character.
Now you're looking for the secret. But you won’t find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Armaddict

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2016, 07:24:32 PM »

It's funny, because I think by -most- accounts, our templars have been pretty tame for awhile.  (This is not a complaint, mind you.)

It's also worth noting that you, with your vantage point, have not seen the elven pickpockets that I've seen that became plagues on the city by 3 or 4 days of playing time, precisely because they were willing to risk getting caught for moments of opportune scores.

I had a militia soldier once who used to catch and release one who got the -code- never caught, but players 'knew it was him' (No, he really didn't hide it well).  Asserting that journeyman anything is useless is based on a platform of requiring 100% success with minimal risk.  Hence the term of risk aversion.

That would actually be pretty cool to see. From my limited time in Allanak, it's way too safe and tame for the setting. I get in more problems in Red Storm than I do in Allanak.

I typically gauge success by real-world conditions rather than the words on the skillsheet. Not that I still don't spam "skills" every 30 seconds while playing because I'm interested to see when stuff changes, but if I'm mostly not failing at charge or trample when I hit journeyman or I can fight without falling off my mount then I'm happy as a clam.

My life expectancy with any character is not great. It's always "I wonder how far east these salt flats go" or "I wonder what's in that hole in the cliff wall" or "#Session Died" and come back without a character to play.

Well.  I would just like to say...life expectancy isn't really a great way to judge the fun of the character, either.  Some of my coolest scenarios were brought about by the 'oh shit' of not knowing where I was.  Yeah, I lost a lot of characters, but I also got to experience some real shit.

Quote
I'm not really irritated about anything here (except maybe the way you're arguing this).

Well.  I wasn't meaning that in the way of you're directly irritated -now-, I should have likely referenced something more along the lines of 'the motivation behind these posts' being a simple state of terminology with visible skills; people are frustrated by not seeing weapon skills go up quickly, and my one big boon of these threads that I am eager to do (as you can see) is point out that master weapon skills are entirely overrated.  If you reach them, you are part of the 1%, and I congratulate you...but the majority of the game, like Majikal said, can be experienced at a far lower skill level.

If you pen yourself into a room and try to grind out to where you're not afraid anymore, then go out and you're not afraid anymore...of -course- the game will feel stale.  But I'm also of the sincere belief that the idea that this will make the game more enjoyable, by essentially making progression faster, is a fallacy.  Less risk is bad.  Getting stronger too fast is bad.  Thinking of skill levels as levels that let you know when you're 'ready for endgame' is detrimental to yourself and the game as a whole...and thus why I think it was easier with no visibility.  Sure, it looked weird to a newbie, but it also forced that idea of testing yourself, fearing the unknown, and using information available to glean what you need to know (i.e. I'm not sure I can kill that guy.  Find out how he does against this guy in sparring, because I can spar with that guy and get an idea, etc).

While I talk about it a lot, I'm -sure- we are not going back to invisible skill levels.  But I do view it as a problem, and this recurring discussion is trying to fix that problem by sliding further on along its slippery slope.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Armaddict

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2016, 07:29:57 PM »
I'm another one of those guys that can play 5 hours a day if I want to. The thing is that I don't want to.

I hate the grind and I resent that I have to compete with players that are willing to engage the grind to play a powerful character.

And I definitely have characters in that same boat.  'rinthers, in particular...there is no logical combat experience unless I go around pretending that people are picking fights (which is twinky in my head), unless I purposely wear things for it to happen (also twinky in my head), or unless I give my character some code that makes them select targets.

However...increasing skill progression rates aids the grinder.  Not the anti-grinder, particularly not in this plight.  You'll just have more people hitting the point that you're worried about faster, where your opportunities will remain limited.  Do more, but remain limited, which means even people far behind will just catch up.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Majikal

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2016, 07:36:01 PM »
And then there's players like me who sometimes login to go chop shit with bone swords, I enjoy the grind. Sometimes I grind, sometimes I spend days at a time without touching a skill. If grinding was limited moreso than it is, there's plenty of playtime I wouldn't even login because I want to go level up on diablo or shoot people in overwatch.

If the grind gets limited or removed or is made casual, lots of times I want to login I simply wouldn't. I doubt I'm the only one that gets excited and logs on cause 'omg I'm about to branch'. So if the game was more casual, I'd log in less.
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Lizzie

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2016, 07:39:21 PM »
The fact is that people have dropped the game because they can't get any sense of progression and feel like they can't keep up if they don't put in a ton of hours. I don't think it matters whether or not that feeling is justified. I just want to see more people come back to the game and more new players retained. I think that will happen if we ease up on the combat skill grind.

But there are people who still play, who have played for years, who do get a sense of progression. So I suggest to you that those people who have dropped the game because they "can't get any sense of progression" are just experiencing their own perception, which might not correlate at all to reality.

I have -moments- when I get frustrated with a lack of progression. But then, the moment passes, I discover that I'm progressing, and I get over it. If I take a week off and don't play at all the entire week, when I come back, I KNOW I haven't progressed at all in the past week. I don't compare my lack of progression with someone else's uber progression. Why should I? Chances are some other random person's going to PK my character anyway, and that someone might've been playing a year longer than I have. Or get me while my character is sleeping. Or succeed a poison dice roll. Or it might be a mekillot and not a PC. Seriously - I really think some people put way too much emphasis on comparing their skills against everyone else. It's like you're playing a totally different game that's nothing more than a H&S.
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valeria

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2016, 07:47:35 PM »
Sounds like a giant bucket of unintended consequences waiting to happen.
Templars are basically if judge Dredd was a Cardassian

Miradus

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2016, 07:56:02 PM »
Sounds like a giant bucket of unintended consequences waiting to happen.

Yeah. I can think of a dozen issues I'd much rather tackle than skill progression.


Reiloth

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Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2016, 08:56:02 PM »
While this game is an RPI, a MUD, and not a MUSH, MOO, etc (Meaning there is a verbose coded combat system, crafting system, and it is by no means a game only perpetuated by RP), I sometimes feel like i'm playing a really, really, really, really good H&S with great RP reinforcement.

I know from reading this thread and having played the game for over a decade and a half, that there are different strokes for different folks. That is great. Some people enjoy playing in clans, others don't. Some people like playing magickers, others, not so much. That's what gives this game such a verbose cast of characters -- You rarely find only the Beefy Warriors in the T'zai Byn. You see the elves, the dwarves, the cutesy girls, the psionicists, the magickers in hiding. Rarely do you find only one 'type' of player anywhere.

Similarly, the grind may appeal to people like Majikal and Armaddict, and many others who aren't voicing their opinions. And it isn't the 'grind' per se, from what i'm reading. It's the natural progression from 0 day 0 hour PC, to the 25 day played Warrior, or Assassin, or Ranger who you can compare to the 0 day 0 hour and visibly see the difference in skills and combat worthiness.

To me -- And this is just me, I can't speak for others -- Perhaps part of the reason I miss Tuluk is that it felt that no matter when or why your character dropped into the bar or ran into someone, there was a thread of a plot that had nothing to do with skills. It felt like I was playing within a story, that was organic, and moved around my PCs with or without them. While elements of this do exist in Allanak, whether because I enjoy playing there less, or simply a lack of participation (not finding the right people, for instance), I find the 'grind' as it were is more of a focus than ever.

It appears (to me) that people don't even consider sending out a 'person' as an Assassin. Instead, they send out the 50 Days Played Assassin, who they are sure is going to kill the target. There are ways they can vet the PC to see if they are capable. Now -- One could argue, Reiloth, anyone in their right mind would do this. Why would they send the 'newbie' assassin to kill someone? And, I would agree. There is a disconnect here...An interchange between meta knowledge and IG knowledge/perception.

While I see and agree with much of Yam's arguments about coded skill gain, my solution would be along a different route. I would actually argue to make 'newbie' PCs more dangerous than they are. This would not discount people who put in time to train, to kill, to learn. In fact, it would make them more dangerous as well.

Ever seen two (Master) Warriors fight one another? It is a woefully long affair, riddled with kicks and bashes and disarm attempts that are reversed...It's rather farcical.

How about two newbish people get into a bar fight? Riddled with whiffs and near hits, it's one of the least enjoyable things to sit through (either as a participant or as a spectator).

What I would suggest is to make starting offense and defense of a character higher at chargen. Allow skill to directly translate to damage while hitting (So that a Brutish 0 day 0 hour dude might be able to hit you more often, but maybe not in as fatal a manner as a trained Salarri/Bynner).  Allow for the brutish 0 day 0 hour dude to pick a fight in a bar, and actually beat someone up. Have the pair of brutish dudes be able to murder each other quickly outside in a shiv match. Have the brutish 0 day 0 hour dude get wrecked even quicker and more brutally by the trained Salarri. Allow combat between a trained combatant and a newb combatant to be over in a few seconds. Allow combat between two newbs to be over in a few seconds. Make shit brutal, short, and permanent.

To me, this would increase PC turnaround, allow for casual players to be members of the 'cast' of Allanak and the rougher parts of the world without needing to devote time to combat related clans (Many of my PCs wouldn't want to join the Byn, for instance, but I feel pressured to as a Player because I similarly don't like murdering NPCs in the Labyrinth). Reduce attachment to the PC as a 'Toon' and 'status symbol' of skill gain, and re-enter the story and atmosphere of Zalanthas. Reward people for time spent RPing and building stories around their PCs, rather than spending time gaining skills.

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, you can gain skills easily. Practice, fail, and wait a bit. But if you don't have time to wait a bit -- If the response of the playerbase is 'Well, if you don't have enough time to play the game anymore, sucks to be you'...Then I guess so it goes. Nothing lasts forever, and perhaps I just have to come to terms with the fact that the model of ArmageddonMUD and how you progress through it doesn't suit my lifestyle anymore.

However, I would be terribly saddened to know that as a fact. I guess we'll all get there some day. But it'd sure be nice to be able to plug in to Armageddon every now and then and feel like my PC could participate, get involved, and make a difference without devoting many hours a day to training.

When the bar of what your PC is capable of doing is determined by numbers on skill sheets, rather than RP, we move dangerously closer to a Hack and Slash. I applaud people who do have the time to commit and maintain the model of ArmageddonMUD as it was for the last 10-15 years (perhaps more recent than that, with being able to see skills). However, much has changed within the Armageddon community, including the age and capability of its players to devote large chunks of time to the game.

I personally would play more if I could avoid the 'skill shame' of being a casual player. I would also play more if it was taken for granted that people have lives, and may not play every day of the week, and to not freak out when they go/arrive/base trust on whether they're around/threaten to murder them for not being around/etc.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 09:00:14 PM by Reiloth »
"You will have useful work: the destruction of evil men. What work could be more useful? This is Beyond; you will find that your work is never done -- So therefore you may never know a life of peace."

~Jack Vance~

SuchDragonWow

  • Posts: 1353
Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2016, 11:53:59 PM »
I prefer to see it as Armageddon adapting to the gaming reality of 2016 and an aging community than going "easy-mode" but I understand your point of view.

I've a sense that this particular problem needs to be addressed, but what we have in resources are limited.  I mean, my phone autocorrects words at high efficiency because my thumb mashed the screen somewhere in the vicinity of a combination of letters, and yet if I can't find the archaic combination of commands to roll up a spice joint:  "Huh?"  "You can't do that here."  "No." "What the fuck are you on about, Jack?"  The tech is archaic, and that's because this is a hobbyist game, not a professional development.

Still, I think if anything, we could make combat skills more reasonable.  It doesn't make any sense why you can max a spell tree in 100 hours of play, and yet expect 1000 hours or more to master a single weapon skill.

And to the poppycock about "stop trying to master skills and roleplay", well, alright dudes.  I'm sure you'd have that same attitude if you couldn't master "swordmaking" and fulfill your character's long-running desire to make a custom blade.

Characters want different things -- that one is unattainable without ridiculous levels of investment seems broken to me.
Where it will go

Nergal

  • Posts: 757
Re: Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2016, 07:26:10 AM »
The change made a few months back to combat skill gain has made a huge difference in the rate at which characters advance in skill. While it still takes a long time to master a combat skill, it takes a relatively very short amount of time to achieve a level of competence in one. Additionally, offense and defense are hidden skills that were also affected by this change, and make a difference in combat as well - and generally speaking, combatant PCs I've looked at over the past few months have been gaining those skills a lot quicker as well - reaching competence (which is important for survival) quickly, and reaching mastery (which is far less important) a little less slowly.

So staff are definitely open to increasing the rate of skill gain, but it should also be understood that there's a balance to be struck. You have to consider that the faster a PC gains in skill, the faster they become powerful - even infallible, in terms of PvP conflict. Casual play at the moment doesn't suffer from an extreme disadvantage compared to more "dedicated" (for lack of a better word) play, because it can be counterbalanced by a casual player seeking out a challenging opponent to advance faster. Making skill gain faster would actually increase the gap between casual and "dedicated" players because the latter group would be able to get more skill-gains with the time they have to spend on getting them, leaving casual players in the dust even more quickly than they're left in the dust now.

Additionally, the more we increase skill-gains the less we make wisdom a factor in them. To be as frank as possible here, if you treat wisdom as a dump stat the effects of that are definitely felt in the long-term. I can't really get into code specifics but it suffices to say that wisdom really does what it's intended to do, and could maybe even be more of a factor in the future.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 10:25:01 AM by Nergal »