Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain

[Majikal]

This would cheapin the feeling of progression.

Next we'll whine about how stats effect the overall curve of how good your easily-maxxed character is compared to the rest etc etc. With a long curve on progression there's a real sense of accomplishment when your skeet-hunter becomes the Bahamet-slayer or your common alleyway thug is a master assassin in Allanak who's murderizing nobles with a nod from a templar. Making progression easier makes the few who reach 'godlike' not as special. The ONLY skills that don't raise quickly are combat skills, however I've raised them quite how being only a casual player. Not in a week, not in two weeks, but they do raise. I think the long progression of weapon skills dual wield/two handed/slashing etc does great at showing the gap of skill between novice and master and all the stages between.

[Armaddict]

If you're considering playing a long term cooperative writing RPG on the internet 'sacrificing your RL away', the problem is not skill progression rate.

[Malken]

If you're considering playing a long term cooperative writing RPG on the internet 'sacrificing your RL away', the problem is not skill progression rate.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me why I don't even bother with it anymore.

That was a good try on your part, Yam, but surely you knew it would lead to nothing. My suggestion? Stick to Overwatch.

[Armaddict]

If you're considering playing a long term cooperative writing RPG on the internet 'sacrificing your RL away', the problem is not skill progression rate.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me why I don't even bother with it anymore.

That was a good try on your part, Yam, but surely you knew it would lead to nothing. My suggestion? Stick to Overwatch.

Yeah.  Because inferences of 'Make this game more like counterstrike or you won't pick up people who like counterstrike' is super convincing.  Stick to overwatch indeed.  And when you feel like playing out an actual character, log in and play the character instead of trying to max it out.

I'm appalled that with this viewpoint you're even remotely attracted to permadeath games in the first place.  You seem to want the permadeath but to make it inconsequential...like the worst roguelike ever made, or something.

[nauta]

[Go the other way.  Make skills invisible again, for everyone, and these silly discussions that assume everyone needs to be advanced and master at everything goes away.

Here's an idea. At chargen, you can choose (or pay CGP / karma or whatever) to have a character who:

- has combat skills hidden
- skillgains combat skills at +50% (rather than spending 10 mins sparring a scrab, you'd spend 5 minutes to get that fail)
- skill failure timer extended to +50% for combat skills (rather than, say, 1 IG day it'd be 2 IG days before you could go skill gain again)

(The general point is that to make things fair to both casuals and non-casuals, you'd extend the 'timer' -- so non-casuals can only skill gain a few times a RL day.)

[path]

Whoa. I would LOVE for skill levels to be invisible again.

I think it's hitting a bit below the belt to just accuse us of being lazy folk who want it all easy. I just want there to be a closer middle ground between what it takes to become efficient with combat as compared to other skill sets.

[whitt]

Disagree.

All this looks to do is try to equalize somehow by making everyone maxed.  That's ridiculous, given where that puts the idea of progression in the game as a whole.

A better idea is to stop thinking of the game as something you only get into once your skills are high enough.

In turn I disagree, though not on the fact that you can play without Master (insert skill).

My disagreement is that starting level skills are suffocatingly bad.  Short of the requirement to branch, I could care if I ever had a skill passed Advanced.  

I simply detest playing a character that sucks at what they supposedly make their livelihood doing.  Setting initial Guild skills to the bottom of Apprentice instead of Novice isn't going to upset the jallal cart.  It would allow players to start at some level other than pathetic and maybe frustrate less newbies and veterans alike.  

I very much feel this is the crux of the matter, the suck of Novice, more than the race to Master.

PS - changing where skills branch would also alleviate some of the feel that there is a need to race to Master and the frustration at needing fails to advance a skill.  Namely that high-level fail requirement only exacerbates the seemingly slow progression rate.

[Yam]

Malken, Armaddict, please don't shit up the thread with too much venom. We're old now. Most of us have played the game and the GDB flame fest for a decade (me especially). We all want the game to do well, retain experience players, and attract new ones. If you don't think changes to skill progression will help that, that's a totally valid opinion. But please don't be dick about it and get the thread shut down.

It is reasonable to expect a character that trains rigorously for 10 IC years to master a weapons kill. However if you only have 2 hours a day to play (which is still a significant chunk of time for many of us) you probably wont master a weapon skill in 10 IC years unless you get really lucky with a sparring partner that shares your login hours or you devote that to hours per day to hunting. One of the ideas I've heard is to let successes increase skill - I think this would really help. Often the issue with skilling up is that it is difficult to find a suitable sparring partner or game if you can only play for short periods of time (i.e. less than 2 hours).

I just want there to be a closer middle ground between what it takes to become efficient with combat as compared to other skill sets.

I agree with this. I think most skills have a good level of progression. Weapon and combat skills are the ones that take way too long to raise.

[Armaddict]

Whoa. I would LOVE for skill levels to be invisible again.

I think it's hitting a bit below the belt to just accuse us of being lazy folk who want it all easy. I just want there to be a closer middle ground between what it takes to become efficient with combat as compared to other skill sets.

Well.  When you say 'us', you kinda make it a group united.  And when the main argument is 'I don't want to spend time on this game that I've chosen to focus in on how effective I am versus people who play more', then yeah.  That kind of puts a damper on things.  Particularly when I can routinely run into people who kick my long-lived character's asses (well, the ones who actually engage in pvp), even when I'm in the middle of one of my events where so much good things are happening I feel like playing all the time.

It's a very falsetto argument.  The actual desire here is to not play in areas with low skills.  The ideas presented all work towards this, whether they be raising starting skill levels, increasing skill progression, etc.  So yes.  I do tend to view it as lazy, as you put it, or not being truly involved in the danger of the game, is how I put it.  It's like we're trying to erase death from the permadeath game.

No one progresses quickly.  There are some chosen few who can play a lot more, and they tend to progress faster...which is -very- fitting with the 'gaming era of 2016'.  (I don't know of a game -with- progression where casual players and dedicated players get pushed into a system of where it's all made equal; they tend to lose their dedicated players, when they push for that).  In the end, this is an equity vs equality argument.  I don't think anyone is getting shat on here, which is continually how this is made to sound.

"Ohhhh, I work and have a family, this game I enjoy should accommodate for that and make it easier for me to keep up with everyone else -- almost all of which also have jobs and other RL events to deal with."  Or, you know...you could just play the game you say enjoy, instead of watching from afar and saying you don't enjoy it unless changes are made.

[Malken]

Malken, Armaddict, please don't shit up the thread with too much venom. We're old now. Most of us have played the game and the GDB flame fest for a decade (me especially). We all want the game to do well, retain experience players, and attract new ones. If you don't think changes to skill progression will help that, that's a totally valid opinion. But please don't be dick about it and get the thread shut down.

Yeah, sorry.

I'm just going to pull back and wait for the changes that will someday bring me back to the game. It's part of why I keep reading the GDB after all, I still get a little excited deep inside each time I see new changes (I'm hoping that the new templars will work out for you guys! - I don't really know much about them)

[Armaddict]

Maybe I'd agree on the weapon skills...if most of the content didn't fall easily under your boots at journeyman weapon skills.  Most of it even below that.

Edit:  So along that same line...sure.  If we simultaneously bump up the difficulty of every commonly hunted NPC in the game.   Or we could just leave all the numbers set up over the past few decades where they've generally been.  But making things easier is...just as bad of a platform as you're complaining about.

[Miradus]

I actually like progression. I want to see it and feel it. I want to be better than I started and I aspire to be better than others.

However, I don't like the current system much. It doesn't allow for me to maximize my playtime. I am achievement based, not social. Frankly, I'd play Armageddon if it was a single player game on my own computer. Having other players around is generally 50/50 whether it makes it better or worse than that single player experience. I dig the code and I dig the difficulty and I really, really dig the permadeath and survival aspects of the game.

But if I invest two hours towards skill achievement, I would like to see 2 hours worth of skill achievement instead of (maybe) 2 points forward as if I'd only put in 5 minutes until the first fail and then went and played something else.

[Iiyola]

It's one of the reasons I hate the Byn. I hate hate hate grinding cause its getting boring so effing fast. And yeah, i don't have the time for it either. I rather roleplay than emoting the same shit each time I spar or even worse... train myself versus the dummy.

[Armaddict]

It's one of the reasons I hate the Byn. I hate hate hate grinding cause its getting boring so effing fast. And yeah, i don't have the time for it either. I rather roleplay than emoting the same shit each time I spar or even worse... train myself versus the dummy.

...but are you relatively fine in an environment where the emphasis is -not- on grinding?


On the lines of being a -non-grinding- character:
I played a 100 day character in the last couple years who had to be very wary of anyone in the Byn.  If they had attended training for 2 days of playing time...they would mop the floor with him.  He was a mundane.  He had skills.  He just didn't have much reason to fight.  I really don't buy into the whole 'We need to fix this because it screws over casuals' argument:

-A casually-played character who is grinding will still very quickly and easily surpass a prolifically-played character who is not.  How do we equalize that situation, aside from saying that everyone should be grinding to keep it equal?  This is, after all, about equality.
-A casually-played character who is grinding will very quickly reach an efficient level of being able to hunt and sustain in the wilds, even against relatively dangerous creatures, making it even less of a point as far as a pve perspective.

This really does turn into a matter of wanting to see (master) for weapon skills, for me, which we've discussed over various threads over and over.  This is why I'd rather we just hide them, and have people guessing at what their skill levels are again; when they kick ass, they feel more confident.  Skills that are not weapon skills generally go up pretty easily for people...unless you're -expecting- to get too powerful too quickly.  Even in widely acknowledged MMO's, you have to go -pretty hardcore- to try to reach upper levels in less than 24 hours of playtime, and in arm, if you're grinding for 24 hours of playtime...you're not doing so bad at those skills at all.  I think for the 'Era of gaming in 2016', things line up nicely.  Hell, if you're playing those 24 hours casually, you're ahead of other people with 24 hours of playtime, because of timers.  They may be 'ahead' of you, but you're sure getting more for your time, which is exactly the plight of the casual, isn't it?  More for less time?

Edit:  Meh, I quoted Iiyola but really it just served as a catalyst to pointing out that not everyone is grinding the way these arguments always make it sound, which...totally makes the casual progression v dedicated progression approach a perception-based argument; you feel like you're falling behind because of who you're comparing to.

As far as skill failures and novice...I've never had an issue with those improving quickly.  Like I said, aside from weapon skills...24 hours of playtime and it goes away.   That seems big, but when you expand character lives out to 20, 30, 50, and 60 days, which is common in Arm, you're trying to change the way things are done over a fractional portion of many characters lives.

[Yam]

I think the problem is that even if you want to play a combat focused character you probably wont be able to reach a master weapon skill in a reasonable amount of time (e.g. 2 hours per day, 4 days per week) in a reasonable number of IC years. One of the reasons is that it just takes a long time to skill up even if you find a well matched sparring partner. Another reason is that it is difficult to find a well matched sparring partner if you can only be on for a short amount of time per day.

I don't think it's reasonable to effectively lock out people with limited time from the combat sphere of the game world.

I also think that the excruciating combat grind is one of the big reasons that Armageddon has started to feel stale and static. Characters take so long to skill up that people start to feel protective of what they see as a time investment. You can argue that this is a bad way to play, sure, but it's a pretty natural way to feel and I suspect it's at the root of some of Armageddon's stagnancy. I think we should at least try out changing the speed of progression and seeing how it feels.

[Armaddict]

I think the problem is that even if you want to play a combat focused character you probably wont be able to reach a master weapon skill in a reasonable amount of time (e.g. 2 hours per day, 4 days per week) in a reasonable number of IC years. One of the reasons is that it just takes a long time to skill up even if you find a well matched sparring partner. Another reason is that it is difficult to find a well matched sparring partner if you can only be on for a short amount of time per day.

I don't think it's reasonable to effectively lock out people with limited time from the combat sphere of the game world.

I also think that the excruciating combat grind is one of the big reasons that Armageddon has started to feel stale and static. Characters take so long to skill up that people start to feel protective of what they see as a time investment. You can argue that this is a bad way to play, sure, but it's a pretty natural way to feel and I suspect it's at the root of some of Armageddon's stagnancy. I think we should at least try out changing the speed of progression and seeing how it feels.

Ah.  The master weapons skills again.  In the previous thread on this (that I participated in at least), there was a general consensus that reaching master was generally how it should be, but the problem was where the advanced weapon skills branched; master weapon skills in Armageddon are truly frightening skills to have, and thus the long grind is somewhat deserved;  you will not be a legendary swordsman until you are, indeed, singular, and you will, indeed, stomp most things that come at you.

You seem to be basing this all off of sparring, though.  Again, sparring until you reach master is a bad mentality to have.

I counter your assertion for stagnancy with my own: This entire mentality of needing skills to be at a certain level before you can do anything is just as prevalent in this stagnancy.  I see various players who contribute a great deal without being skill-based at all, not to mention -good- at combat skills.  So the idea that the game is stagnant because not enough people are reaching master levels of skills quickly enough is pretty out there.  But you can toss that in with about a billion other reasons people are saying for 'stagnation of the game'.  However, I am averse to such things as this because it's not just a simple tweak to be made.  It's an entire rebalance.  And once it's done, 'just to see how it works', changes committed are very seldom pulled back in Armageddon.  So when you push this for, and fall back on 'let's try it out', it doesn't fit the compromise since there's not much precedence.  Even things with outright disclaimers of 'This will be tweaked or pulled later' rarely, if ever, seem to do so, even with feedback.

I will continue to say that this is based on your perception of things rather than how they actually are; you're upset the word isn't changing fast enough, and ignoring the fact the skill is actually behaving quite a bit different in use.

Aside from the weapon skill branching, of course.  In which case we could just drop those down to advanced and call it good.

[Yam]

What do you think is a reasonable amount of time to master a weapon skill?

[lostinspace]

I think the problem is that even if you want to play a combat focused character you probably wont be able to reach a master weapon skill in a reasonable amount of time (e.g. 2 hours per day, 4 days per week) in a reasonable number of IC years. One of the reasons is that it just takes a long time to skill up even if you find a well matched sparring partner. Another reason is that it is difficult to find a well matched sparring partner if you can only be on for a short amount of time per day.

Unless you just don't want to join a clan, I don't think lack of a sparring partner is ever really a problem, and if you're going the solo indie route, what does it matter, so long as you accomplish your goals? As for master weapon skills, I have no idea how long they actually take because the highest I've ever gotten a combat skill is Advanced. I'm fine with very few ever getting them. I play for progression, and most the time once a character is mostly maxed I'll store. To me branching a master weapon skill would be a great achievement, I would be proud of accomplishing something so difficult to do.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't think Master Weaponskill should be the benchmark for when a character is useful. My most useful character never got past jman (in a single weaponskill skill) and it took him 70 days just to get to advanced 2hand.

[Yam]

I don't think Master Weaponskill should be the benchmark for when a character is useful. My most useful character never got past jman (in a single weaponskill skill) and it took him 70 days just to get to advanced 2hand.

It definitely isn't. But it's a benchmark of when people start to hit the ceiling and when playtime stops being a big ability divider.

My position is that it takes to long to get to any level of a weapon skill or dual wield/two handed.

[Armaddict]

A billion days.

Whatever makes it so that the majority of players aspiring for it don't reach it.  Particularly from the safety of a sparring ring.  This seems to be working nicely right now.

I don't think Master Weaponskill should be the benchmark for when a character is useful. My most useful character never got past jman (in a single weaponskill skill) and it took him 70 days just to get to advanced 2hand.

That's what I mean, though.  Most skills don't take that long in comparison to any other game that requires any sort of 'grind'...the difference is that here we embrace permadeath, so you don't just keep it.  This makes it very good as long as you aren't clinging to higher skills.  As far as weapon skills go, they're on a different scale, yes.  But the entire issue here is not skills taking too long to master, it's people depending too heavily on reaching master.

Warriors have a valid gripe.  Not because of master, but because of -branching-.  We agreed in this topic before that those should be moved down.  But effectively shifting progression altogether solves no problems, makes more work, creates no new content, and is all around a symptom of people trying to max everything out to feel relevant.

My rangers don't branch parry.  My warriors don't get above journeyman (except in maybe one or two cases).  Saying that this makes them irrelevant is completely shorting the currency exchanged in an RPG for the need to say 'Maximum reached; now able to do a few things I probably won't ever do because I'm risk averse to losing my maxed character'.

And yet it keeps coming up.  Not in a way that changes.  The repeated mantra is 'it's for the casuals'...but it doesn't even truly serve the casuals either.  It's all about the words on their skill list.

[nauta]

Unless you just don't want to join a clan, I don't think lack of a sparring partner is ever really a problem, and if you're going the solo indie route, what does it matter, so long as you accomplish your goals?

I wouldn't mind seeing more humanoid NPCs in the wilds so you can train up a raider without having to join the Byn for a year.

Yam,

If you make everyone progress quicker (and not just invent some sort of mechanism to allow casuals to keep up with non-casuals), then you are in the exact same place as before, aren't you?  In PvP, casuals will be worse than non-casuals.  Moreover, if you make everyone progress quicker, then we'll have to have tougher NPCs -- that is, the delicate balance in PvE will have to change.  In my view, other than a few OMGROFLMASTOMPmobs still out there, the PvE balance is pretty good: you can move from getting stomped by a scrab to defeating a scrab after about a dozen battles with it.

[Yam]

Unless you just don't want to join a clan, I don't think lack of a sparring partner is ever really a problem, and if you're going the solo indie route, what does it matter, so long as you accomplish your goals?

Yam,

If you make everyone progress quicker (and not just invent some sort of mechanism to allow casuals to keep up with non-casuals), then you are in the exact same place as before, aren't you?  

Not necessarily. I think the ideal system would be one where you can get a skillup in one 10-20 minute sparring session with someone reasonably close to your level of ability. That would leave the person with two hours of playtime another 100 minutes to go do build up whatever other relationships they want to build.

As it stands right now you need to spend a fuckload of time in a fight fishing for several failed attacks to progress. Often it isn't even possible to get a missed attack against another player unless some specific things are done.

It's not just a matter of progressing quicker, it's a matter of changing progression. BadSkeelz had a character that spent 70 days of playtime in a combat clan and never got higher than a journeyman weapon skill. That's the kind of character that SHOULD master a weapon skill, but it never will because combat skill progression is goofy.

[Narf]

It's not just a matter of progressing quicker, it's a matter of changing progression. BadSkeelz had a character that spent 70 days of playtime in a combat clan and never got higher than a journeyman weapon skill. That's the kind of character that SHOULD master a weapon skill, but it never will because combat skill progression is goofy.

I'm pretty sure the code was tweaked a while ago so that this isn't as true as it used to be.

I had a character that would go out and fight mobs, usually hunting down multiples and failing bash attempts to fall on my butt as I fought. After about 3 or 4 I'd get a miss. Then some nebulous code changes got posted in the notes and suddenly I'd miss the same mobs regularly while standing up. Furthermore I'd miss players that sparred regularly, something that never happened before that.

You might want to double check that some of these assumptions aren't out of date.

[Armaddict]

This is developing into an extension of http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49514.150.html, almost point for point.

And yes.  There was a code announcement about skill gains on certain skills being tweaked to make them improve faster, but we were not given details on how.