Merchants and Weapons

[Beethoven]

And if you succeed and you don't have the skill your opponent is much more likely to hit you as you flee. And that shit HURTS.

[Miradus]

Yeah, without the skill it just doesn't work so hot.

[Armaddict]

I'm not so onboard with merchants getting a weapon skill unless it's capped below j-man.  Apprentice weapon skills are pretty decent for PvE once you have the offense/defense to go with it.

However, flee should be either a universal skill, or put back into a good variety of subguilds (not sure if they were removed, but the helpfile for some of the subguilds that used to have it no longer say they have it.)

[Miradus]

Agreed.

Why is it that so many subguilds got direction sense and advanced ride when flee is just as useful? Seems like if you have those other two skills than you ought to have the third.

[bardlyone]

Agreed on flee.

I think it would be ideal if it worked like pilot. Anyone can open it up with enough practice, though the guilds that start with it tend to get better with it at the top end of what they can do.

I love the other idea about improvised weapons to basically allow you to try and use X or Y type weapon at about half the skill level of the improv weapons ability, because if it capped around journeyman for merchant and pp, and higher, say, advanced, for burglar and ranger, then letting assassins and warriors cap it at master. This would not only give warriors the top end on it, but would bolster the toolbox that assassins have to work with, giving them more versatility. Capping it higher than ranger would allow them to be more deadly to people with weapons they aren't formally trained in than rangers (which seems logical), etc etc etc.

[Chettaman]

Flee is a very important skill.
With it you can fight deadly things and escape with little worry - sleep - and then go out to try again.

Flee should definitely not be a skill everyone gets passed novice.
That being said, I've played plenty of characters without the flee skill and have still escaped with little worry - slept - and then went back out to try again anyway.
So it really doesn't matter, if you ask me. I just don't think every guild needs it.

Without flee... you have a little more fear about getting into combat at all. (especially now that having the flee skill makes a difference)

While I would love to see all skills universal, since things are not this way, I enjoy the idea of different classes describing a character and then sub-classes rounding out that character.

Merchants don't need greater combat skill. Because they're merchants. There are indeed subguilds (now) that offer greater combat skills. In the past I would of said, "subguild with weapons!" also.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm glad a bunch of people don't have flee. It's already too easy to escape death.


Flee has practically no command delay, so it's very spammable.

[Lizzie]

My thoughts -
Regarding someone actually playing a merchant, and picking the merchant guild to do so.
Unproven, new to the character - if someone is trying to attack them, it's not because they're a merchant. It's because of a) random raider, b) merchant made enemy and this is the consequence. c) merchant guild out hunting.

Easily solvable: if you're playing a new character, and he's a merchant guild, then stay close to the safety of the walls. By close, I mean - within 3 or 4 rooms. If you go further than that, hire someone to escort you or buddy up. You picked your guild - if you wanted to be someone who could wander outside cities by yourself, you should've picked ranger with a crafting subguild.
Another solution - wait until you can afford to hire a crew, before pissing people off. Then, your crew will protect you.

Proven, not new to the character, successful merchant-guild merchant mastercrafting stuff already: you're stinkin filthy rich. Hire bodyguard PCs. Use some of those sids, spread it around. Or, accept that you're an easy mark because you have uber stuff in your pack and no one keeping you safe. This is why they have "ruff circle" sparring. The person playing the merchant is supposed to stand there being vulnerable, and the crew is supposed to protect him from the nasty gith.

[Jihelu]

This is a  good time to mention that dwarves get three times the normal rough circle gains!

I'd be completely fine with merchants getting like, apprentice flee though.
Not combat skills at all.
Just flee.
So they can atleast try to get the fuck away.

[boog]

Use a subguild.

[Miradus]

Which subguild adds flee and how many karma is it?

[Narf]

Which subguild adds flee and how many karma is it?

They took flee away from all the subguilds when they did the revamp.

I know warriors and pickpockets get it though.

[Lizzie]

I think -all- main guilds should come with a minimum of novice flee (higher depending on the guild).

At the very least, everyone should have a modest chance to succeed in "flee self."

[Miradus]

I don't know how the mechanics function in order to give a complete accounting, but I have noticed that a merchant who runs into a gortok has a SIGNIFICANT level of difficulty in escaping compared to the fresh ranger with newbie flee skills. I would be surprised if everyone hasn't noticed it.

[Narf]

I don't know how the mechanics function in order to give a complete accounting, but I have noticed that a merchant who runs into a gortok has a SIGNIFICANT level of difficulty in escaping compared to the fresh ranger with newbie flee skills. I would be surprised if everyone hasn't noticed it.

I don't know about that. Flee has no lag time, you can flee as many times in a second as you can hit the "repeat action" key, whatever that happens to be. I've failed to flee ten times in a row and still made it out before my opponent's next attack. I probably had time to spare.

The main advantage of the flee skill isn't successfully fleeing, it's that you can choose a direction. Occassionally you also avoid the extra attack, but that isn't reliable even at master level. The only reliable and relevant difference I've found between no flee and master flee is your choice of direction.

[boog]

Flee DOES have a lag time.

Editing to add: My post was in regards to the subject line of the OP. "Merchants and weapons."

Pick a subguild that comes with a weapon skill.

[RogueGunslinger]

Flee DOES have a lag time.

It's incredibly small if it exists.

I think -all- main guilds should come with a minimum of novice flee (higher depending on the guild).

At the very least, everyone should have a modest chance to succeed in "flee self."

Everyone does have a modest chance to succeed, even without the skill.

If you're having trouble fleeing you should probably have tried to flee sooner.

[Armaddict]

If you're having trouble fleeing you should probably have tried to flee sooner.

Unless main guilds were changed, none of the rogue classes have flee.  You needed to pick them up from a subguild.  Flee before was just a way of knowing which way you ran.  As you said, you have a pretty decent chance of fleeing even without the skill.
However, the part of this that is arguable is not whether flee is OP, it's whether it's necessary.  With the addition of extra attacks on flee, those without the skill, if hit by reel, will almost certainly die when they flee, or be reeled in the next room, or get knocked out.

Yes, it is hard to pin people down, particularly with you guys insisting bash is useless.  But the -inability- to pick up flee is a big deal.  It's not about classes not getting it; it's about the option of having it being removed entirely.  Subguilds with flee were worth it JUST for flee.  Saying that your burglar/pickpocket/merchant/whatever is just destined to be hit every time they run away from an aggressor is a recipe for deep satisfaction on classes that are already suffering dissatisfaction.

Note that this knowledge is anecdotal and possibly out of date.  But I do think that removing the option of gaining the skill to run away not safely, but more safely, and not making the skill itself at least minorly accessible to more people is a little irresponsible at this stage of the game where character-death is such an aversion to the majority of players.

[Jihelu]

Assassin gets flee?
I think?MAYBE?!

[AdamBlue]

You know, considering I was drooling over the idea of an assassin/gladiator, I figure gladiator would be an easy subguild pick for merchant. A small ability to fight is a useful tool, and a reason to carry a bitchin' sword.

[Jihelu]

You know, considering I was drooling over the idea of an assassin/gladiator, I figure gladiator would be an easy subguild pick for merchant. A small ability to fight is a useful tool, and a reason to carry a bitchin' sword.

Theres always a reason to carry a sword.
Mostly cause if you get jumped and you have no weapons in hand rip you

[nauta]

Note that this knowledge is anecdotal and possibly out of date. 

It's out of date.  Pretty sure we can't say more on the gdb.

[Armaddict]

Note that this knowledge is anecdotal and possibly out of date. 

It's out of date.  Pretty sure we can't say more on the gdb.

Roger dodger, thanks.  I'll just have to relearn some things since changes are going on right now.

[Norcal]

Merchants already get so many skills, adding a weapon skill and also flee to the guild would be too much.  It may be very realistic that a merchant can use a weapon and also be able to run, yet Arm is not always about realism, it is about balance as well.

The subguilds work well to allow for a weapon skill. And unless a merchant wants a crafting skill not already available in the main guild (very few), using a subguild that allows for weapon(s) skills makes great sense. 

I wonder though, what will happen with the main guild once the revamp is complete. Perhaps there will be an option for a fighter/merchant with more weapon skills and fewer crafting skills, or various types of specialized merchant (arms and armor, apparel etc).  Not sure I would like to see the main guild changed though. I think it rocks as is.